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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 7, 2019 9:44:15 GMT
So if our players are so awful what exactly is the point of sacking Jones? If they're that bad a new manager isn't going to make a blind but of difference - if anything a new manager will make things worse as he'll be working with players he didn't choose (as per Lambert). If we've got shit players, a shit manager and a shit board surely relegation is inevitable? So why stress about it? Why bother going to games when defeat is inevitable? May as well look forward to like back in the third tier. Most managers are not afforded the luxury of bringing in a whole new team in any organisation, Jones has had that luxury at Stoke, he proved last season he didn't have the skills to get the best out of the squad he inherited, these are his players, his system, his responsibility. Any good manager finds a strategy to work with team members get's the very best out of them he has failed on all counts. Absolutely. And the more you think about it, the more this argument for any kind of a 'free pass' for last season's garbage is a nonsense. Oh, we can only judge him when he gets his team? It doesn't work like that, does it? Especially as the XI he's often started this season could largely have been played in his diamond last season, and his signings have added the square root of sod all. It's just a complete mess, and he's plumbing new depths.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 7, 2019 11:19:58 GMT
So we accept the inevitable without trying to address the situation !!!, it's pretty obvious the manager is a major part of the mess we are in so you suggest we just let him carry on wrecking the club seriously This thread is nothing to do with the manager. It's about rating the players. You have rated the players as being shit. The manager is irrelevant. Our squad is shit therefore we are going down. Which bit of that don't you understand? You can bang on about getting rid or Jones and "saving the club" but it's nothing more than a pointless rant. If the players are shit we are going down. It really is that simple, Sacking the manager is just another goat slaughtering exercise to keep the goat slaughters happy. Ancient societies gave up on slaughtering goats in order to make the crops grow because they eventually realised dead goats made bugger all difference to the harvest. If the the weather is shit the crops will fail. If the squad is shit the club will get relegated, No amount of dead goats/sacked managers is going to make the slightest bit of difference. The squad - by your own admission - is shit. We are going down, There is nothing anyone can do except embrace our doom. It's about rating the players he has signed, so it has nothing to do with him even though he has signed them what a strange conclusion to come to these players are his responsibility, he is accountable for signing them.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 8, 2019 8:26:38 GMT
You are missing the point. You have slagged off virtually every member of the squad. I agree a good manager will get the best out of the players he's inherited and those that he's brought in - but if the players are shit all the manger can can do is make them play shit. Therefore there is absolutely no point changing manager because he can only make the completely shit squad we've got play a different type of shit. We have a shit squad so we're going down. What's the point in blowing yet more money in paying off Jones and getting a new manager when we're going down anyway? Jones may not be equipped for the Championship but he's proved himself in League 1 so he could could do well with the shit squad we have. I really don't get why anyone would want to get rid of Jones when our squad is so bad relegation is inevitable. It doesn't make sense. Isn't it the point of this thread to: "Rate Nathan's signings"? You seem to be saying Nathan can't do well because he has shite players: they are the players he has spent millions on. Nathan Jones has been given more financial support than virtually any of his competition and his results are awful. By any standards at all he has done a terrible job as manager of SCFC. Lambert was not great but he got better performances out of his players than Jones. Rowett was bloody awful but he still managed to get better results out of the players than Jones. Jones' signings, tactics and man management could hardly have been worse since he came to the club. Nathan Jones has spent hardly anything - and it's not his fault that FFP has capped his budget. The point I'm making is that if the players are rubbish then the manager is irrelevant. The majority of the posters on this thread have said that Jones's signings are rubbish. If we have rubbish players we will therefore go down - regardless of the manager. You can blame Jones for the the quality of the players he's brought in and for his woeful record as manager but the fact remains if we have shit players we will go down. Sacking Jones and bringing in a new manager is a futile act designed to make people think they are taking decisive action to solve the problem. My point is that if the players are as bad as people on here are making out sacking Jones is pointless - we're going to go down anyway because by almost everyone's admission are players are rubbish. Why fret? If you think are players are garbage then we're going down. Any discussion about the manager is irrelevant.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 8, 2019 8:40:30 GMT
This thread is nothing to do with the manager. It's about rating the players. You have rated the players as being shit. The manager is irrelevant. Our squad is shit therefore we are going down. Which bit of that don't you understand? You can bang on about getting rid or Jones and "saving the club" but it's nothing more than a pointless rant. If the players are shit we are going down. It really is that simple, Sacking the manager is just another goat slaughtering exercise to keep the goat slaughters happy. Ancient societies gave up on slaughtering goats in order to make the crops grow because they eventually realised dead goats made bugger all difference to the harvest. If the the weather is shit the crops will fail. If the squad is shit the club will get relegated, No amount of dead goats/sacked managers is going to make the slightest bit of difference. The squad - by your own admission - is shit. We are going down, There is nothing anyone can do except embrace our doom. It's about rating the players he has signed, so it has nothing to do with him even though he has signed them what a strange conclusion to come to these players are his responsibility, he is accountable for signing them. Of course he is accountable for signing them - where did I say he wasn't? The thing is we've signed them and any new manager can't change what he's got to work with. If the squad is as bad as you and others have said it is then we're going down - whoever the manager. Changing the manager now will therefore not make a blind bit of difference to how the season will pan out. Which bit don't you understand? Of course if the players aren't that bad and the problem is Jones's tactics and inexperience that would be a different matter entirely - a new manager could make a difference. But hardly anyone on this thread is saying that - most posters on this thread (and on this board) are too embroiled in their "I hate Stoke City Football Club more than you" cock measuring competition to even bother with trying to follow the basic rudiments of a logical argument. In this case the logical argument is that if your players are crap your club is doomed to relegation regardless of the manager. The fact that you don't seem to get this speaks volumes.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 8, 2019 8:41:46 GMT
Isn't it the point of this thread to: "Rate Nathan's signings"? You seem to be saying Nathan can't do well because he has shite players: they are the players he has spent millions on. Nathan Jones has been given more financial support than virtually any of his competition and his results are awful. By any standards at all he has done a terrible job as manager of SCFC. Lambert was not great but he got better performances out of his players than Jones. Rowett was bloody awful but he still managed to get better results out of the players than Jones. Jones' signings, tactics and man management could hardly have been worse since he came to the club. Nathan Jones has spent hardly anything - and it's not his fault that FFP has capped his budget. The point I'm making is that if the players are rubbish then the manager is irrelevant. The majority of the posters on this thread have said that Jones's signings are rubbish. If we have rubbish players we will therefore go down - regardless of the manager. You can blame Jones for the the quality of the players he's brought in and for his woeful record as manager but the fact remains if we have shit players we will go down. Sacking Jones and bringing in a new manager is a futile act designed to make people think they are taking decisive action to solve the problem. My point is that if the players are as bad as people on here are making out sacking Jones is pointless - we're going to go down anyway because by almost everyone's admission are players are rubbish. Why fret? If you think are players are garbage then we're going down. Any discussion about the manager is irrelevant. How do you rate the signings he has made ? give it a go instead of deflecting the issues, these are his signings how have they improved the team compared to last season ?
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Sept 8, 2019 9:05:47 GMT
In hindshight the only signing from the list I'd still make is Powell, as there is no doubting his ability if we can get him fit.
If I were manager i would have just spent the rest of the money on a player who played last season as a holding midfielder somewhere, and a left back.
Up top, we'd be better off giving a young player a chance than Hogan, gregory or vokes who are all wank.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 8, 2019 9:17:19 GMT
In hindshight the only signing from the list I'd still make is Powell, as there is no doubting his ability if we can get him fit. If I were manager i would have just spent the rest of the money on a player who played last season as a holding midfielder somewhere, and a left back. Up top, we'd be better off giving a young player a chance than Hogan, gregory or vokes who are all wank. We would have been better off keeping Bojan to give Powell competition or vis versa, not signing a quality holding mid and a quality left back is incompetence, Gregory gives his all but lacks quality agree with Vokes and Hogan the worst signing of all for me is Cousins the worst of a poor bunch.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 8, 2019 9:30:53 GMT
Nathan Jones has spent hardly anything - and it's not his fault that FFP has capped his budget. The point I'm making is that if the players are rubbish then the manager is irrelevant. The majority of the posters on this thread have said that Jones's signings are rubbish. If we have rubbish players we will therefore go down - regardless of the manager. You can blame Jones for the the quality of the players he's brought in and for his woeful record as manager but the fact remains if we have shit players we will go down. Sacking Jones and bringing in a new manager is a futile act designed to make people think they are taking decisive action to solve the problem. My point is that if the players are as bad as people on here are making out sacking Jones is pointless - we're going to go down anyway because by almost everyone's admission are players are rubbish. Why fret? If you think are players are garbage then we're going down. Any discussion about the manager is irrelevant. How do you rate the signings he has made ? give it a go instead of deflecting the issues, these are his signings how have they improved the team compared to last season ? I have - see earlier. And it isn't me who is deflecting the issues it to is you and you inability to follow a logical arguement. In terms of improving the team the drop in quality is down to the reality of relegation and failing to get promoted last year. To blame Jones for FFP is yet another example of a goat slaughtering mentality.
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 8, 2019 9:36:31 GMT
Butland Edwards-Batth-Collins-McClean Woods Clucas-Allen (or Etebo) Ince Vokes-Campbell
Do we know why he didn't play this XI, in a diamond, from January onwards?
He could have - and it's an XI that's as good (or bad) as any he could field at the moment. There certainly has been no step forward in terms of specialist holding player, full-backs, better strikers.
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Post by Championship Potter on Sept 8, 2019 11:22:13 GMT
It's a complete travesty when you think with a couple of wingers and a defensive mid we'd have had a squad as good as pretty much any in the league. Instead we have a barrel of centre backs, box to box midfielders, number 10s but no wingers, no left back and no holding midfielder.
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Post by gingerninja on Sept 8, 2019 11:25:34 GMT
The squad is still an unbalanced mess, he's had all summer to hone and prepare his diamond formation and he seems to have ditched it because he's recruited poorly for it. As much as I like the guy he's flapping around in a sea of chaos..
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Post by Gods on Sept 8, 2019 11:44:39 GMT
Most managers are not afforded the luxury of bringing in a whole new team in any organisation, Jones has had that luxury at Stoke, he proved last season he didn't have the skills to get the best out of the squad he inherited, these are his players, his system, his responsibility. Any good manager finds a strategy to work with team members get's the very best out of them he has failed on all counts. Absolutely. And the more you think about it, the more this argument for any kind of a 'free pass' for last season's garbage is a nonsense. Oh, we can only judge him when he gets his team? It doesn't work like that, does it? Especially as the XI he's often started this season could largely have been played in his diamond last season, and his signings have added the square root of sod all. It's just a complete mess, and he's plumbing new depths. I do agree, 80% of management should be about getting more from what you have, no one in any walk of life, be it busines or public service gets to throw out what was there begore and start again.
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Post by roylandstoke on Sept 8, 2019 11:52:54 GMT
Isn't it the point of this thread to: "Rate Nathan's signings"? You seem to be saying Nathan can't do well because he has shite players: they are the players he has spent millions on. Nathan Jones has been given more financial support than virtually any of his competition and his results are awful. By any standards at all he has done a terrible job as manager of SCFC. Lambert was not great but he got better performances out of his players than Jones. Rowett was bloody awful but he still managed to get better results out of the players than Jones. Jones' signings, tactics and man management could hardly have been worse since he came to the club. Nathan Jones has spent hardly anything - and it's not his fault that FFP has capped his budget. The point I'm making is that if the players are rubbish then the manager is irrelevant. The majority of the posters on this thread have said that Jones's signings are rubbish. If we have rubbish players we will therefore go down - regardless of the manager. You can blame Jones for the the quality of the players he's brought in and for his woeful record as manager but the fact remains if we have shit players we will go down. Sacking Jones and bringing in a new manager is a futile act designed to make people think they are taking decisive action to solve the problem. My point is that if the players are as bad as people on here are making out sacking Jones is pointless - we're going to go down anyway because by almost everyone's admission are players are rubbish. Why fret? If you think are players are garbage then we're going down. Any discussion about the manager is irrelevant. Vokes, Batth, Smith and Lindsay represent a massive outlay for a Championship club. How many sides in our division have spent more than Jones since January?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 8, 2019 12:30:42 GMT
Absolutely. And the more you think about it, the more this argument for any kind of a 'free pass' for last season's garbage is a nonsense. Oh, we can only judge him when he gets his team? It doesn't work like that, does it? Especially as the XI he's often started this season could largely have been played in his diamond last season, and his signings have added the square root of sod all. It's just a complete mess, and he's plumbing new depths. I do agree, 80% of management should be about getting more from what you have, no one in any walk of life, be it busines or public service gets to throw out what was there begore and start again. I agree. But look at the comments on here - the players are almost unanimously being condemned as crap. Virtually no-one is saying that they have potential that might come out if their confidence improves, the formation clicks, they have a bit if luck or even if there is a change in manager. They are being condemned as crap. No ifs no buts - just crap. If that is the case we are doomed to relegation - no matter how good the manager they won't be able to get a tune out of a squad that virtually every poster has condemned as being inherently crap. Virtually no-one is prepared to say anything positive about the players either for fear of being accused of being a happy clapper or because the new definition of manhood is the ability to spew an endless stream of negative bile. The problem is that endless stream of bile doesn't stand up to scrutiny - it's just being negative for its own sake and when the sheer irrationality of the endless negativity is called out their is no rationale response because rationality and logic have no part to play. It's all about slagging the club off for the sake of it. Scratch the surface and it's really just a bunch of impotent old farts whinging that we got relegated, can't cope with the new realities of being a Championship club and want a goat to slaughter. The sheer irrationality of the goat blood frenzy is that on this thread they are confusing the player goats with the manager goat and are stabbing blindly at anything that might be a bit goaty. Rational discussion about causation has been replaced by randon irrational rants about correlation. The cause of the drop in quality of our squad is FFP. The fact the Jones appointment was at the time FFP bit is a correlation. The goat slaughters actually believe that slaughtering the manager goat will solve the problem of FFP. Which of cause is complete bollocks - but you try conducting a rational conversation with a convinced goat slaughter.
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Post by shrewspotter on Sept 8, 2019 12:41:55 GMT
Vokes 4 Batth 7 Davies na Smith 5 Lindsay 4 Cousins 2 CCV 4 Powell na Gregory 6 Hogan 6 Duffy 4 Ward 3
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Post by Gods on Sept 8, 2019 12:44:51 GMT
I do agree, 80% of management should be about getting more from what you have, no one in any walk of life, be it busines or public service gets to throw out what was there begore and start again. I agree. But look at the comments on here - the players are almost unanimously being condemned as crap. Virtually no-one is saying that they have potential that might come out if their confidence improves, the formation clicks, they have a bit if luck or even if there is a change in manager. They are being condemned as crap. No ifs no buts - just crap. If that is the case we are doomed to relegation - no matter how good the manager they won't be able to get a tune out of a squad that virtually every poster has condemned as being inherently crap. Virtually no-one is prepared to say anything positive about the players either for fear of being accused of being a happy clapper or because the new definition of manhood is the ability to spew an endless stream of negative bile. The problem is that endless stream of bile doesn't stand up to scrutiny - it's just being negative for its own sake and when the sheer irrationality of the endless negativity is called out their is no rationale response because rationality and logic have no part to play. It's all about slagging the club off for the sake of it. Scratch the surface and it's really just a bunch of impotent old farts whinging that we got relegated, can't cope with the new realities of being a Championship club and want a goat to slaughter. The sheer irrationality of the goat blood frenzy is that on this thread they are confusing the player goats with the manager goat and are stabbing blindly at anything that might be a bit goaty. Rational discussion about causation has been replaced by randon irrational rants about correlation. The cause of the drop in quality of our squad is FFP. The fact the Jones appointment was at the time FFP bit is a correlation. The goat slaughters actually believe that slaughtering the manager goat will solve the problem of FFP. Which of cause is complete bollocks - but you try conducting a rational conversation with a convinced goat slaughter. Honestly all that would go away if we could only ever see some sort of new manager bounce as other clubs seem to get. But we fired Hughes mid season and got worse and relegated under Lambert. We hired Rowett to get us in the promotion mix but it didn't work out so we sacked him and hired Nathan under whom we have gone from under performing to total free fall. We were told with 'his own team' we would see his plans come to fruition but instwad we have become the worst team in the Championship. Little wonder folks have no faith in his signings who, let's be honest, no one had ever heard of them before they arrived and on seeing them in action it's little wonder why!
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Post by roylandstoke on Sept 8, 2019 12:45:45 GMT
I do agree, 80% of management should be about getting more from what you have, no one in any walk of life, be it busines or public service gets to throw out what was there begore and start again. I agree. But look at the comments on here - the players are almost unanimously being condemned as crap. Virtually no-one is saying that they have potential that might come out if their confidence improves, the formation clicks, they have a bit if luck or even if there is a change in manager. They are being condemned as crap. No ifs no buts - just crap. If that is the case we are doomed to relegation - no matter how good the manager they won't be able to get a tune out of a squad that virtually every poster has condemned as being inherently crap. Virtually no-one is prepared to say anything positive about the players either for fear of being accused of being a happy clapper or because the new definition of manhood is the ability to spew an endless stream of negative bile. The problem is that endless stream of bile doesn't stand up to scrutiny - it's just being negative for its own sake and when the sheer irrationality of the endless negativity is called out their is no rationale response because rationality and logic have no part to play. It's all about slagging the club off for the sake of it. Scratch the surface and it's really just a bunch of impotent old farts whinging that we got relegated, can't cope with the new realities of being a Championship club and want a goat to slaughter. The sheer irrationality of the goat blood frenzy is that on this thread they are confusing the player goats with the manager goat and are stabbing blindly at anything that might be a bit goaty. Rational discussion about causation has been replaced by randon irrational rants about correlation. The cause of the drop in quality of our squad is FFP. The fact the Jones appointment was at the time FFP bit is a correlation. The goat slaughters actually believe that slaughtering the manager goat will solve the problem of FFP. Which of cause is complete bollocks - but you try conducting a rational conversation with a convinced goat slaughter. I'm saying we have decent players and the manager is failing to get anywhere near par like performances from them. Butland, Edwards, Collins, Batth, Woods, Clucas, Allen, Ince, Vokes, Gregory, McClean, BMI, Etebo have all shown at times in their careers that they are, at worst, capable of playing at the top end of this division. The art of management is to get the best out of your resources. Nathan Jones has failed to do this since January. Despite the restriction of FFP Jones has still spent much more on new players than the great majority of his competition.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 8, 2019 16:34:45 GMT
I agree. But look at the comments on here - the players are almost unanimously being condemned as crap. Virtually no-one is saying that they have potential that might come out if their confidence improves, the formation clicks, they have a bit if luck or even if there is a change in manager. They are being condemned as crap. No ifs no buts - just crap. If that is the case we are doomed to relegation - no matter how good the manager they won't be able to get a tune out of a squad that virtually every poster has condemned as being inherently crap. Virtually no-one is prepared to say anything positive about the players either for fear of being accused of being a happy clapper or because the new definition of manhood is the ability to spew an endless stream of negative bile. The problem is that endless stream of bile doesn't stand up to scrutiny - it's just being negative for its own sake and when the sheer irrationality of the endless negativity is called out their is no rationale response because rationality and logic have no part to play. It's all about slagging the club off for the sake of it. Scratch the surface and it's really just a bunch of impotent old farts whinging that we got relegated, can't cope with the new realities of being a Championship club and want a goat to slaughter. The sheer irrationality of the goat blood frenzy is that on this thread they are confusing the player goats with the manager goat and are stabbing blindly at anything that might be a bit goaty. Rational discussion about causation has been replaced by randon irrational rants about correlation. The cause of the drop in quality of our squad is FFP. The fact the Jones appointment was at the time FFP bit is a correlation. The goat slaughters actually believe that slaughtering the manager goat will solve the problem of FFP. Which of cause is complete bollocks - but you try conducting a rational conversation with a convinced goat slaughter. I'm saying we have decent players and the manager is failing to get anywhere near par like performances from them. Butland, Edwards, Collins, Batth, Woods, Clucas, Allen, Ince, Vokes, Gregory, McClean, BMI, Etebo have all shown at times in their careers that they are, at worst, capable of playing at the top end of this division. The art of management is to get the best out of your resources. Nathan Jones has failed to do this since January. Despite the restriction of FFP Jones has still spent much more on new players than the great majority of his competition. Amazingly with all those players plus his signings in the summer he has managed to have firmly rooted at the bottom of the League.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Sept 8, 2019 17:01:54 GMT
Cack the lot of em. Did Jones have any say on the players brought in at Luton? If he did,then how come he's managed to get it so wrong at Stoke?
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Post by loosestools on Sept 8, 2019 17:09:08 GMT
I would suggested that the ones he has brought in (apart from Davies, who was supposed to replace Butland when he was sold) are all yes men. It's the only way he had any chance of keeping some sort of unity. Desperation due to lack of respect and gravitas.
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Post by thisfootballclub on Sept 8, 2019 17:16:39 GMT
It did seem a scatter-gun approach to just getting new faces through the door as the transfer deadline loomed. The players signed are Championship (and possibly a few League One) standard. A manager who keeps it simple tactically will likely achieve more with this group than fancy diamond formations which rely on players we simply haven't got.
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Post by Pugsley on Sept 8, 2019 17:56:35 GMT
We've had 8 years of dodgy recruitment, 4 managers in that time. That suggests there is more to it than the manager, although the last 3 have been diabolical!
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Post by serpico on Sept 8, 2019 18:01:09 GMT
Powell aside, I don’t think I’d heard of any of these players we signed before they came to the club, they’re not the kind of signings that a club with promotion ambitions make, are they ?
Maybe they just need time to bed in but it doesn’t look good.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Sept 8, 2019 18:27:32 GMT
Powell aside, I don’t think I’d heard of any of these players we signed before they came to the club, they’re not the kind of signings that a club with promotion ambitions make, are they ? Maybe they just need time to bed in but it doesn’t look good. They have bedded in,they play like they are half asleep.
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Post by Gods on Sept 8, 2019 18:32:47 GMT
Powell aside, I don’t think I’d heard of any of these players we signed before they came to the club, they’re not the kind of signings that a club with promotion ambitions make, are they ? Maybe they just need time to bed in but it doesn’t look good. I hadn't even heard of Powell :-)
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Post by tosh on Sept 8, 2019 19:14:06 GMT
I would suggested that the ones he has brought in (apart from Davies, who was supposed to replace Butland when he was sold) are all yes men. It's the only way he had any chance of keeping some sort of unity. Desperation due to lack of respect and gravitas. You may have hit a nail on the head there. Maybe Pieters and Bojan were not “yes men” and questioned his tactical naivety? That could be a big reason why he wanted to get rid asap. I get the impression that maybe Nathan isn’t comfortable working with players who’ve played at a much higher level than him, and who might question his ideas. Could explain his irrational haste to to replace the entire squad instantly with League 1 journeymen. How many managers would attempt to make so much drastic change so fast? It was bound to make squad unity problems worse.
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Post by Dresden_scfc on Sept 8, 2019 19:46:01 GMT
For a start the left back situation is ridiculous we had a good enough left back at the club and we let him go for ward and mcclean to fill in. Crazy!
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Post by thisfootballclub on Sept 8, 2019 20:08:12 GMT
For a start the left back situation is ridiculous we had a good enough left back at the club and we let him go for ward and mcclean to fill in. Crazy! Indeed a strange one, could of been understood if he had his eye on a pacey, athletic full-back as a replacement. Instead 34 year old Stephen Ward was brought to the club.
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Post by southernish on Sept 8, 2019 20:54:02 GMT
Smith has been one of the worst. Would much prefer Edwards play over him. No reason why he's been dropped as he was scoring and playing well at the end of last season...
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 9, 2019 5:42:09 GMT
Powell aside, I don’t think I’d heard of any of these players we signed before they came to the club, they’re not the kind of signings that a club with promotion ambitions make, are they ? Maybe they just need time to bed in but it doesn’t look good. They have bedded in,they play like they are half asleep. They are all athletes who Nath thinks can play fast attacking entertaining football ! in his fucking dreams.
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