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Post by felonious on Aug 30, 2019 17:46:08 GMT
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Post by Dutchpeter on Aug 30, 2019 17:51:46 GMT
I’m happy to be corrected by the middle class leftists on this board, but aren’t true socialists against the EU? Making the classic Falklands mistake of ‘my enemies, enemy is my friend’? |
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 17:52:30 GMT
More like “no brexit” protests.
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Post by felonious on Aug 30, 2019 17:56:07 GMT
I’m happy to be corrected by the middle class leftists on this board, but aren’t true socialists against the EU? Making the classic Falklands mistake of ‘my enemies, enemy is my friend’? Don't worry it won't be long before you'll be hearing Momentum speak  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 18:01:25 GMT
I’m happy to be corrected by the middle class leftists on this board, but aren’t true socialists against the EU? Making the classic Falklands mistake of ‘my enemies, enemy is my friend’? Yep you’re right. Tony Benn, Corbyn (should have been anyway), Galloway etc. |
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 18:09:45 GMT
I’m happy to be corrected by the middle class leftists on this board, but aren’t true socialists against the EU? Making the classic Falklands mistake of ‘my enemies, enemy is my friend’? True socialists are against the Eu because they know if a socialist government came to power in the uk they wouldn’t be able to implement many of their key policies. Many leftists who voted remain are also anti Eu, but they felt the UKIP/right wing of the Conservative party had claimed the anti Eu position as their own and turned it into an anti immigrant cause, so they distanced themselves from it (see Owen Jones) The Uk isn’t anti immigrant though, if you look at surveys immigration is largely looked upon as favourable, the left have slipped up thinking brexit was purely about anti immigration. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 30, 2019 18:24:02 GMT
I’m happy to be corrected by the middle class leftists on this board, but aren’t true socialists against the EU? Making the classic Falklands mistake of ‘my enemies, enemy is my friend’? True socialists are against the Eu because they know if a socialist government came to power in the uk they wouldn’t be able to implement most of their policies. Many leftists who voted remain are also anti Eu, but they felt the UKIP/right wing of the Conservative party had claimed the anti Eu position as their own and turned it into an anti immigrant cause, so they distanced themselves from it (see Owen Jones) The Uk isn’t anti immigrant though, if you look at surveys immigration is largely looked upon as favourable, the left have slipped up thinking brexit was purely about anti immigration. The average UK voter wants controlled and sustainable immigration; immigration that can be managed. It's more about the level of immigration than immigration itself, for me. |
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Post by felonious on Aug 30, 2019 18:30:06 GMT
True socialists are against the Eu because they know if a socialist government came to power in the uk they wouldn’t be able to implement most of their policies. Many leftists who voted remain are also anti Eu, but they felt the UKIP/right wing of the Conservative party had claimed the anti Eu position as their own and turned it into an anti immigrant cause, so they distanced themselves from it (see Owen Jones) The Uk isn’t anti immigrant though, if you look at surveys immigration is largely looked upon as favourable, the left have slipped up thinking brexit was purely about anti immigration. The average UK voter wants controlled and sustainable immigration; immigration that can be managed. It's more about the level of immigration than immigration itself, for me. That right, we want to be racist like the Australians, Canadians, Americans, etc. Someone I know emigrated to Australia. Even their child had to have a medical and they had to have evidence of job, funds, criminal checks, etc |
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 30, 2019 18:32:21 GMT
This is politics Fel. Meaning, Whats’want. We!ll see what people want. You seem scared. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 18:33:11 GMT
Good I'm glad they are.
Itll just turn more away from labour
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 18:34:21 GMT
This is politics Fel. Meaning, Whats’want. We!ll see what people want. You seem scared. But what are your views on them supposedly being hard core socialists and not wanting to leave the EU? I’m genuinely interested to know how people can reconcile it |
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Post by lommack on Aug 30, 2019 18:37:10 GMT
This is politics Fel. Meaning, Whats’want. We!ll see what people want. You seem scared. But what are your views on them supposedly being hard core socialists and not wanting to leave the EU? I’m genuinely interested to know how people can reconcile it Leaving under a far right agenda? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 18:39:18 GMT
But what are your views on them supposedly being hard core socialists and not wanting to leave the EU? I’m genuinely interested to know how people can reconcile it Not leaving under a far right agenda? Maybe but why not campaign to leave on a left one? |
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Post by lommack on Aug 30, 2019 18:40:03 GMT
They aren't in government
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 18:40:09 GMT
This is politics Fel. Meaning, Whats’want. We!ll see what people want. You seem scared. But what are your views on them supposedly being hard core socialists and not wanting to leave the EU? I’m genuinely interested to know how people can reconcile it They’re anti Tory, not pro Eu per-se. |
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 18:43:06 GMT
Not leaving under a far right agenda? Maybe but why not campaign to leave on a left one? They used to call it “lexit” (left exit) many of them were ready to make the left wing case to leave the EU but allowed their Tory hatred to override it on the eve of the referendum. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 18:44:22 GMT
But what are your views on them supposedly being hard core socialists and not wanting to leave the EU? I’m genuinely interested to know how people can reconcile it They’re anti Tory, not pro Eu per-se. Still baffles me because they don’t even make a case for it. Seems like a bunch of kids that haven’t done their homework on what socialism is... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 18:48:17 GMT
Maybe but why not campaign to leave on a left one? They used to call it “lexit” (left exit) many of them were ready to make the left wing case to leave the EU but allowed their Tory hatred to override it on the eve of the referendum. Yeah I wonder where they had gone. I’m trying to think which high profile Labour men have supported it. Galloway is the obvious one but the media censors him as much as possible! |
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Post by lommack on Aug 30, 2019 18:49:51 GMT
They’re anti Tory, not pro Eu per-se. Still baffles me because they don’t even make a case for it. Seems like a bunch of kids that haven’t done their homework on what socialism is... So they campaign on a socialist agenda, making alliances across Europe with socialist groups. We still get a far right Brexit because fatso will still be prime minister. Let see what happens if/ when the government falls |
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 18:51:33 GMT
They’re anti Tory, not pro Eu per-se. Still baffles me because they don’t even make a case for it. Seems like a bunch of kids that haven’t done their homework on what socialism is... I’m not a socialist but if I was I’d want out of the Eu, they’re no friend of trade unions, their workers rights aren’t much to write home about and they prevent nationalisation (not across the board) it’s also very much a friend of the corporations they supposedly hate so much! As I say, I think many on the left have allowed their hatred of Tories and the likes of Farage to instruct their position on the eu. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 18:54:34 GMT
Still baffles me because they don’t even make a case for it. Seems like a bunch of kids that haven’t done their homework on what socialism is... So they campaign on a socialist agenda, making alliances across Europe with socialist groups. We still get a far right Brexit because fatso will still be prime minister. Let see what happens if/ when the government falls But they are losing the votes because they just look like they are trying to overturn a democratic vote. You’re average man won’t look at this and think they are playing a clever game. Why not be honest about your intentions? I do agree I can’t possibly believe Corbyn doesn’t want to leave the EU and at first I thought he’s playing a good game here but now it looks like we’re in the end game and his plan is going tits up? What’s he going to do if there’s a deal and he can’t implement his policies because he’s still bound by certain EU regulations. I’m genuinely interested to know if there’s some kind of master plan I’m not aware of! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 18:57:48 GMT
Still baffles me because they don’t even make a case for it. Seems like a bunch of kids that haven’t done their homework on what socialism is... I’m not a socialist but if I was I’d want out of the Eu, they’re no friend of trade unions, their workers rights aren’t much to write home about and they prevent nationalisation (not across the board) it’s also very much a friend of the corporations they supposedly hate so much! As I say, I think many on the left have allowed their hatred of Tories and the likes of Farage to instruct their position on the eu. Thats exactly where I’m at and if a Labour government was in charge of Brexit I’d have no hesitation whatsoever. It does concern me that’s there will be a right wing Brexit, more so that I think Corbyn has fucked it so he won’t win the next GE, but I’m not going to march around the streets demanding a vote be overturned. Surely it’s best to be honest now and just focus on the next GE? This just seems outright daft! It’s just playing into the Tories hands? |
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Post by lommack on Aug 30, 2019 19:02:32 GMT
The problem he has got is he isn't in government and doesn't have the power to do anything. What ever he does he ends up with the same hard right agenda until the government folds, which will be hopefully be sooner than later. The narrative might change if this happens hopefully with the full support of our right wing friends
Perhaps flip the question, would the right wing support a full on socialist Brexit?
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 19:02:44 GMT
So they campaign on a socialist agenda, making alliances across Europe with socialist groups. We still get a far right Brexit because fatso will still be prime minister. Let see what happens if/ when the government falls But they are losing the votes because they just look like they are trying to overturn a democratic vote. You’re average man won’t look at this and think they are playing a clever game. Why not be honest about your intentions? I do agree I can’t possibly believe Corbyn doesn’t want to leave the EU and at first I thought he’s playing a good game here but now it looks like we’re in the end game and his plan is going tits up? What’s he going to do if there’s a deal and he can’t implement his policies because he’s still bound by certain EU regulations. I’m genuinely interested to know if there’s some kind of master plan I’m not aware of! You don’t get into power agreeing with the opposition, he’s taken an oppositional stance for the sake of trying to get into power, or are we supposed to believe after decades of being anti Eu he’s had a change of heart and thinks the Eu is ok after all ? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 19:06:06 GMT
But they are losing the votes because they just look like they are trying to overturn a democratic vote. You’re average man won’t look at this and think they are playing a clever game. Why not be honest about your intentions? I do agree I can’t possibly believe Corbyn doesn’t want to leave the EU and at first I thought he’s playing a good game here but now it looks like we’re in the end game and his plan is going tits up? What’s he going to do if there’s a deal and he can’t implement his policies because he’s still bound by certain EU regulations. I’m genuinely interested to know if there’s some kind of master plan I’m not aware of! You don’t get into power agreeing with the opposition, he’s taken an oppositional stance for the sake of trying to get into power, or are we supposed to believe after decades of being anti Eu he’s had a change of heart and thinks the Eu is ok after all ? I don’t think that’s true thought because the underlying issues aren’t about “Brexit” in my view. Yes theirs the sovereignty point but aside from that - immigration, jobs, the NHS, privatisation, the north-south divide. There’s a lot muddled up in there that means it’s not easily divided along party lines. I suppose it’s therefore a unique case which warranted a unique approach. |
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 19:19:57 GMT
You don’t get into power agreeing with the opposition, he’s taken an oppositional stance for the sake of trying to get into power, or are we supposed to believe after decades of being anti Eu he’s had a change of heart and thinks the Eu is ok after all ? I don’t think that’s true thought because the underlying issues aren’t about “Brexit” in my view. Yes theirs the sovereignty point but aside from that - immigration, jobs, the NHS, privatisation, the north-south divide. There’s a lot muddled up in there that means it’s not easily divided along party lines. I suppose it’s therefore a unique case which warranted a unique approach. The big issue is brexit though and Corbyn never wanted it resolved otherwise he wouldn’t get another shot at getting into power for years, better to keep voting down the governments WA and stir the shit up, try and force a GE becaus the government can’t pass its deal. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 19:21:25 GMT
I don’t think that’s true thought because the underlying issues aren’t about “Brexit” in my view. Yes theirs the sovereignty point but aside from that - immigration, jobs, the NHS, privatisation, the north-south divide. There’s a lot muddled up in there that means it’s not easily divided along party lines. I suppose it’s therefore a unique case which warranted a unique approach. The big issue is brexit though and Corbyn never wanted it resolved otherwise he wouldn’t get another shot at getting into power for years, better to keep voting down the governments WA and stir the shit up, try and force a GE becaus the government can’t pass its deal. The real issue is why people voted for Brexit and why they think it is a good idea and the problems they think it will sort. As you are aware that’s not some deluded little Englander notion of “I want my country back”. There are very real issues at the heart of it that spread across all apectrums. |
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Post by mattyd on Aug 30, 2019 19:29:38 GMT
The average UK voter wants controlled and sustainable immigration; immigration that can be managed. It's more about the level of immigration than immigration itself, for me. That right, we want to be racist like the Australians, Canadians, Americans, etc. Someone I know emigrated to Australia. Even their child had to have a medical and they had to have evidence of job, funds, criminal checks, etc Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. It's not racist, it's common sense. Surely it's a good idea to know EXACTLY who we are letting in and what their health status is. |
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Post by felonious on Aug 30, 2019 19:33:18 GMT
This is politics Fel. Meaning, Whats’want. We!ll see what people want. You seem scared. Labour has been infiltrated by lunatics Barth it's Labour voters who should be scared. I don't think it's how we do politics in this country Barth. I can't remember Blair, Brown or any other Labour leader asking his party within a party to close down roads and bridges across the country. |
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Post by algor on Aug 30, 2019 19:37:56 GMT
The big issue is brexit though and Corbyn never wanted it resolved otherwise he wouldn’t get another shot at getting into power for years, better to keep voting down the governments WA and stir the shit up, try and force a GE becaus the government can’t pass its deal. The real issue is why people voted for Brexit and why they think it is a good idea and the problems they think it will sort. As you are aware that’s not some deluded little Englander notion of “I want my country back”. There are very real issues at the heart of it that spread across all apectrums. This is a very valid point however, if the vote is given, made and not carried out then these issues will magnify over generations both left and right will go deeper and deeper. We need to carry out the peoples instruction, leave and then have the national conversation about our identity and expectations. |
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