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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 15, 2019 12:37:43 GMT
Which is a massive technical flaw? It isn’t a technical flaw it’s a symptom of being part of a team where no-one had a clue of what they doing for a hell of a long time. He may settle down as the poster says. It may also transpire that in Jones system there are better suited players for the only 2 central midfield positions so to speak. But he’s not a bad footballer. He’s not at all shit. He’s not the source of all our problems by any means and it’s weird that everyone’s suddenly focusing on him now. We would have been a hell of a lot worse without him last season. Hmm, I still think trying to do everything in a positional demanding discipline is something he has to work on, or at least is a major problem in how he plays for Stoke. You can't play in this side for 3 years and not contribute at least a little bit towards the decline. I would also argue that we're seeing there are better players than him in the middle, one of whom lost us the game when got subbed off and Allen took over his role. I've said lots I don't want him gone, but it's not unreasonable to want him dropped to look at other options surely? The issue is, that never seems to happen no matter how he performs. I also don't think it's weird people are looking at him now when in the first two games he's been poor, there were audible laughs when he got MoTM against QPR. He started off poorly by his own admission last year too, though he did improve but certainly not to "one of the best in the division" like people build him up to be. It works both ways. There's no metric or eye test I can think of that he brings him out as anything above average last year. If he is the "best of a bad bunch" in midfield I don't get why that argument applies to defend Joe Allen but not to our top scorer Afobe.
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Post by cousindupree on Aug 15, 2019 12:39:20 GMT
Good post. Another question is, what is Allen being asked to do? Surely if Jones had asked him to "sit" a la Whelan and he seems unwilling or incapable of doing it he would be dropped? What are his instructions? Same goes for previous managers. It’s a good question and one I’ve always wondered. If he could just go back to being the metronomic version that Brendan Rodgers got so misty eyed about he’d be much less of a problem for us. If my memory serves me right that's how he was at Euro 2016 and played well enough to be chosen in the team of the tournament partnering Kroos in a CDM 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation. Hughes seemed to give him a more forward free roving role in midfield rather than play him how Rodgers did.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 15, 2019 12:41:29 GMT
It’s a good question and one I’ve always wondered. If he could just go back to being the metronomic version that Brendan Rodgers got so misty eyed about he’d be much less of a problem for us. If my memory serves me right that's how he was at Euro 2016 and played well enough to be chosen in the team of the tournament partnering Kroos in a CDM 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation. Hughes seemed to give him a more forward free roving role in midfield rather than play him how Rodgers did. He did, and his early goals masked the fact he was greatly overachieving (to his credit) in that role, but sadly Hughes persisted with it (to Allen's detriment). He's never been used in a role that probably suits his game, but if that means sacrificing everything about the systems we're playing then it's not worth him being in. He's certainly not a good enough player or impactful enough to build your side round.
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Joe Allen
Aug 15, 2019 12:48:37 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 12:48:37 GMT
It isn’t a technical flaw it’s a symptom of being part of a team where no-one had a clue of what they doing for a hell of a long time. He may settle down as the poster says. It may also transpire that in Jones system there are better suited players for the only 2 central midfield positions so to speak. But he’s not a bad footballer. He’s not at all shit. He’s not the source of all our problems by any means and it’s weird that everyone’s suddenly focusing on him now. We would have been a hell of a lot worse without him last season. Hmm, I still think trying to do everything in a positional demanding discipline is something he has to work on, or at least is a major problem in how he plays for Stoke. You can't play in this side for 3 years and not contribute at least a little bit towards the decline. I would also argue that we're seeing there are better players than him in the middle, one of whom lost us the game when got subbed off and Allen took over his role. I've said lots I don't want him gone, but it's not unreasonable to want him dropped to look at other options surely? The issue is, that never seems to happen no matter how he performs. I also don't think it's weird people are looking at him now when in the first two games he's been poor, there were audible laughs when he got MoTM against QPR. He started off poorly by his own admission last year too, though he did improve but certainly not to "one of the best in the division" like people build him up to be. It works both ways. There's no metric or eye test I can think of that he brings him out as anything above average last year. If he is the "best of a bad bunch" in midfield I don't get why that argument applies to defend Joe Allen but not to our top scorer Afobe. I understand the concerns I really do but the out and out calls for him to be dropped (not only on social media are just bordering on weird imo). As I see it for those two midfield spots which aren’t DM or No.10 in that system you’ve got two options: Allen or Etebo or Etebo and Clucas. I will reserve judgement until Etebo is back because Allen plays well with Etebo. At the end of last season Allen looks a lot more disciplined than he had done for a while when playing alongside Etebo. I don’t know why Jones put him at DM - it seems mad. He should have come off for Duffy that’s for sure rather than Woods be taken off but we did also then change the shape further when Verlinden and Campbell came on and the whole thing turned into a right mess. It wasn’t solely Joe’s fault. I’m not saying this at you specifically (before you take it the wrong way) but it’s all I see on social media at the moment and I think it’s absolutely weird and almost turning into a case of people jumping on the bandwagon and finding someone to point the finger at. It’s disproportionate.
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Post by chigstoke on Aug 15, 2019 12:51:54 GMT
If joe has a good season so will stoke city. I cant help but feel some of you 'experts' wouldve given sir stan stick back in the day for something or other. If a footballer does stuff wrong, they inevitably get stick.
It just so happens that Joe Allen does quite a bit wrong actually.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 15, 2019 12:57:26 GMT
If joe has a good season so will stoke city. I cant help but feel some of you 'experts' wouldve given sir stan stick back in the day for something or other. To even bring Stan into this debate is hyperbolic and completely ridiculous. Try addressing some of the criticisms of Allen's game to defend him like Estokie has done rather than some weird strawman argument about players being criticised.
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Post by dreamtheater on Aug 15, 2019 13:14:10 GMT
I happen to think joe allen is quite a decent player and gets undeserved stick actually, Hes playing whats been an utterly clueless football team for quite sometime now and some of the shit has stuck to him too (unfortunately) Yes A rather frustrating headless chicken sometimes but, class on his day too. And IF we turn the corner and have a decent season I am sure Joe Allen will be in the thick of it and, many of you will have serious egg on your faces ..
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Post by OldStokie on Aug 15, 2019 18:00:13 GMT
Once upon a time we would have called Joe a 'box-to-box midfielder', but I'm not sure anybody uses them these days. Formations; systems; tactics, they are achanging. I must admit that I'm baffled by most of the modern stuff in nogger today. It used to be so simple: Goalie; two fullbacks; two central defenders; a central midfielder - preferably a box-to-box one (Huddy is the perfect example); an inside left; an inside right; two wingers, and a centre forward.
I'll Dubbin me boots now.
OS.
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Post by LankyPotter on Aug 15, 2019 18:17:48 GMT
I happen to think joe allen is quite a decent player and gets undeserved stick actually, Hes playing whats been an utterly clueless football team for quite sometime now and some of the shit has stuck to him too (unfortunately) Yes A rather frustrating headless chicken sometimes but, class on his day too. And IF we turn the corner and have a decent season I am sure Joe Allen will be in the thick of it and, many of you will have serious egg on your faces .. Okay, id love for that to happen but what attributes does Joe Allen have that will contribute to a winning team? What does he bring to the starting XI? Ryan Woods controls the tempo and is always available to receive the ball, etebo is dynamic and has the ability to skip past players like they aren’t there and is he is also a defensive rock. Clucas is also dynamic and has the technical ability to pick out clever passes and has the ability to drive with the ball. Allen for me has non of those attributes, he pinches possession well but usually ends up on the losing side of challenges and almost certainly wanders out of position - leaving gaps.
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Post by pottersrule on Aug 15, 2019 18:31:36 GMT
Once upon a time we would have called Joe a 'box-to-box midfielder', but I'm not sure anybody uses them these days. Formations; systems; tactics, they are achanging. I must admit that I'm baffled by most of the modern stuff in nogger today. It used to be so simple: Goalie; two fullbacks; two central defenders; a central midfielder - preferably a box-to-box one (Huddy is the perfect example); an inside left; an inside right; two wingers, and a centre forward. I'll Dubbin me boots now. OS. Make sure you don't head the lace on the old Casey.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 16, 2019 7:30:07 GMT
Once upon a time we would have called Joe a 'box-to-box midfielder', but I'm not sure anybody uses them these days. Formations; systems; tactics, they are achanging. I must admit that I'm baffled by most of the modern stuff in nogger today. It used to be so simple: Goalie; two fullbacks; two central defenders; a central midfielder - preferably a box-to-box one (Huddy is the perfect example); an inside left; an inside right; two wingers, and a centre forward. I'll Dubbin me boots now. OS. Ironically, a lot of the stuff people are using now in this country was used in the 30s, 40s and 50s on the continent and in South America. We've just been terribly slow as a nation to adopt things other than flat 4-4-2, 4-5-1 variation and simply defenders, midfielders and forwards. Allen plays a sort of box to box midfielder role for us but he's not creative enough to be one out and out. For example the guy who plays alongside him at Wales, Aaron Ramsey is a world class box to box mid hence why Allen isn't required to play that role for them. Probably why he appears a lot better when he plays internationally than I think he does for us. The role he should be playing in the middle is something called a Carrilero which is a guy with the energy of a box to box (which he has in spades) but with the discipline to only move principally horizontally across the field rather than vertically like a conventional box to box to cover the channels left by the fullbacks. This is where I think he struggles because it's a role requiring a tonne of positional care and discipline.
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Post by owdestokie2 on Aug 16, 2019 7:56:21 GMT
Once upon a time we would have called Joe a 'box-to-box midfielder', but I'm not sure anybody uses them these days. Formations; systems; tactics, they are achanging. I must admit that I'm baffled by most of the modern stuff in nogger today. It used to be so simple: Goalie; two fullbacks; two central defenders; a central midfielder - preferably a box-to-box one (Huddy is the perfect example); an inside left; an inside right; two wingers, and a centre forward. I'll Dubbin me boots now. OS. The beautiful game is still so simple. I love reading some of the posts from Oatie tacticians. The only thing I understand, and get reassurance from them is that there is still 11 players on the pitch Check the inside of your boots with the flat of your hand to check for nails before you put them on.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Aug 16, 2019 7:57:16 GMT
Once upon a time we would have called Joe a 'box-to-box midfielder', but I'm not sure anybody uses them these days. Formations; systems; tactics, they are achanging. I must admit that I'm baffled by most of the modern stuff in nogger today. It used to be so simple: Goalie; two fullbacks; two central defenders; a central midfielder - preferably a box-to-box one (Huddy is the perfect example); an inside left; an inside right; two wingers, and a centre forward. I'll Dubbin me boots now. OS. Ironically, a lot of the stuff people are using now in this country was used in the 30s, 40s and 50s on the continent and in South America. We've just been terribly slow as a nation to adopt things other than flat 4-4-2, 4-5-1 variation and simply defenders, midfielders and forwards. Allen plays a sort of box to box midfielder role for us but he's not creative enough to be one out and out. For example the guy who plays alongside him at Wales, Aaron Ramsey is a world class box to box mid hence why Allen isn't required to play that role for them. Probably why he appears a lot better when he plays internationally than I think he does for us. The role he should be playing in the middle is something called a Carrilero which is a guy with the energy of a box to box (which he has in spades) but with the discipline to only move principally horizontally across the field rather than vertically like a conventional box to box to cover the channels left by the fullbacks. This is where I think he struggles because it's a role requiring a tonne of positional care and discipline. Spot on
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Post by thisisouryear on Aug 16, 2019 8:10:55 GMT
Once upon a time we would have called Joe a 'box-to-box midfielder', but I'm not sure anybody uses them these days. Formations; systems; tactics, they are achanging. I must admit that I'm baffled by most of the modern stuff in nogger today. It used to be so simple: Goalie; two fullbacks; two central defenders; a central midfielder - preferably a box-to-box one (Huddy is the perfect example); an inside left; an inside right; two wingers, and a centre forward. I'll Dubbin me boots now. OS. Ironically, a lot of the stuff people are using now in this country was used in the 30s, 40s and 50s on the continent and in South America. We've just been terribly slow as a nation to adopt things other than flat 4-4-2, 4-5-1 variation and simply defenders, midfielders and forwards. Allen plays a sort of box to box midfielder role for us but he's not creative enough to be one out and out. For example the guy who plays alongside him at Wales, Aaron Ramsey is a world class box to box mid hence why Allen isn't required to play that role for them. Probably why he appears a lot better when he plays internationally than I think he does for us. The role he should be playing in the middle is something called a Carrilero which is a guy with the energy of a box to box (which he has in spades) but with the discipline to only move principally horizontally across the field rather than vertically like a conventional box to box to cover the channels left by the fullbacks. This is where I think he struggles because it's a role requiring a tonne of positional care and discipline. He is a good Defensive Mid, his game just needs fine tuning. His passing is solid especially his one touch game but needs to be more direct at times, he does focus more on keeping possession rather than finding a runner. He slows down counters well giving players more time to get in position (hopefully we will see this to be more effective as the season goes on now we have more players who bust a gut for eachother). We have had too many lazy players the last few seasons leaving him fully exposed. It's still early in the season with players still bedding in. What Allen isn't is an attacking player, we will see over the season how effective he is. We do have better players in his best position though. He can only really get in the team if we play 2 DM's and we have players who should be good enough there already. If players lose form he is there and solid backup.
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Joe Allen
Aug 16, 2019 11:07:06 GMT
via mobile
Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 16, 2019 11:07:06 GMT
I happen to think joe allen is quite a decent player and gets undeserved stick actually, Hes playing whats been an utterly clueless football team for quite sometime now and some of the shit has stuck to him too (unfortunately) Yes A rather frustrating headless chicken sometimes but, class on his day too. And IF we turn the corner and have a decent season I am sure Joe Allen will be in the thick of it and, many of you will have serious egg on your faces .. There's nowt worse than serious egg, Tone. It's no yolk, I tell you! 😁
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Post by shakermaker on Aug 16, 2019 14:03:07 GMT
It’s a good question and one I’ve always wondered. If he could just go back to being the metronomic version that Brendan Rodgers got so misty eyed about he’d be much less of a problem for us. If my memory serves me right that's how he was at Euro 2016 and played well enough to be chosen in the team of the tournament partnering Kroos in a CDM 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation. Hughes seemed to give him a more forward free roving role in midfield rather than play him how Rodgers did. At Swansea, Allen played alongside Leon Britton as one of the '2' in the midfield triangle of a defensive 4-3-3. Whilst Britton was the metronomic heartbeat of that team with an exquisite range of passing, Joe was good at short 1/2 touch passing, good awareness and therefore rarely getting caught on the ball. Hiis low centre of gravity allowed him to get a foot in defensively and control the play. What Allen cannot be with us is a single defensive midfielder. He doesn't have the positional awareness or the passing intelligence to do it alone. He needs another midfielder to look after the vision and playmaking role, so he can focus solely on orchestrating play from a deeper position, make tackles and get the ball forward. He's just not the kind of player who can 'stay put' and be a lynchpin. Which is why long-term, I don't think he has a place in NJ's tactical vision.
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Joe Allen
Aug 16, 2019 14:11:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by LankyPotter on Aug 16, 2019 14:11:08 GMT
If my memory serves me right that's how he was at Euro 2016 and played well enough to be chosen in the team of the tournament partnering Kroos in a CDM 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation. Hughes seemed to give him a more forward free roving role in midfield rather than play him how Rodgers did. At Swansea, Allen played alongside Leon Britton as one of the '2' in the midfield triangle of a defensive 4-3-3. Whilst Britton was the metronomic heartbeat of that team with an exquisite range of passing, Joe was good at short 1/2 touch passing, good awareness and therefore rarely getting caught on the ball. Hiis low centre of gravity allowed him to get a foot in defensively and control the play. What Allen cannot be with us is a single defensive midfielder. He doesn't have the positional awareness or the passing intelligence to do it alone. He needs another midfielder to look after the vision and playmaking role, so he can focus solely on orchestrating play from a deeper position, make tackles and get the ball forward. He's just not the kind of player who can 'stay put' and be a lynchpin. Which is why long-term, I don't think he has a place in NJ's tactical vision. Goodbye Joe!
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Joe Allen
Aug 17, 2019 16:14:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by wrexhamstokie90 on Aug 17, 2019 16:14:35 GMT
Too weak abysmal positioning now missing sitters aswel when will be dropped??!!
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Post by dudnostokie on Aug 17, 2019 16:15:55 GMT
I've got a feeling he will make way for Pete next week.
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Post by clarkeda on Aug 17, 2019 16:16:12 GMT
Was awful again today. Improved in the second half but not good enough for me.
Etebo has to play next week.
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Joe Allen
Aug 17, 2019 16:16:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by borat on Aug 17, 2019 16:16:25 GMT
Poorest on the pitch, followed by McClean.
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Joe Allen
Aug 17, 2019 16:18:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by berahinosgoals on Aug 17, 2019 16:18:28 GMT
Was awful again today. Improved in the second half but not good enough for me. Etebo has to play next week. Yeah, if allen starts he must have a clause in his contract that says if he is fit, he plays. There cant be any other explanation for it. To miss a 2 yard sitter is criminal and the difference between 1 point & 3
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Post by tejstokie on Aug 17, 2019 16:18:58 GMT
Poorest on the pitch, followed by McClean. McClean was excellent today though defensively and going forward. So he can turn it on. Allen was clearly and obviously the weak link in that side. He chases like a fox but he causes so many issues and problems behind him. His one chance to make up for it he misses a 2 yard sitter.
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Joe Allen
Aug 17, 2019 16:20:47 GMT
via mobile
Post by scfcno1fan on Aug 17, 2019 16:20:47 GMT
Got slightly better in the second half.
But still very poor.
Straight swap for Etebo surely?
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Post by milky on Aug 17, 2019 16:22:25 GMT
Poorest on the pitch, followed by McClean. McClean was excellent 2nd half , the best he has ever played in a Stoke shirt.
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Post by tejstokie on Aug 17, 2019 16:23:08 GMT
Was awful again today. Improved in the second half but not good enough for me. Etebo has to play next week. Yeah, if allen starts he must have a clause in his contract that says if he is fit, he plays. There cant be any other explanation for it. To miss a 2 yard sitter is criminal and the difference between 1 point & 3 You really have to think if he starts next match that he must have a clause or something going. How can any manager defend that performance from a former PL player? I'd love to hear that explanation but nobody has the gravitas to ask him in a presser.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Aug 17, 2019 16:23:31 GMT
The first goal was his fault.
For being out of position.
Again.
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Post by milky on Aug 17, 2019 16:24:21 GMT
And although he didnt concede the penalty he ( yet again ) allowed his man to run off him in the first place.
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Post by stuammo on Aug 17, 2019 16:36:16 GMT
The diamond won’t work as long as Allen is part of it. Sooner Etebo replaces him the better. The diamond can start to flourish then
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2019 16:40:17 GMT
I’ve always stuck up for Joe however today wow... he was abysmal. First half when he managed to pass it to a derby shirt 3 times on the bounce was something else
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