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Post by sportsman on Aug 4, 2019 10:30:47 GMT
we need etebo and Ndaydi to start ince is also a good shout. Completely different gravy with them in the side.
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Post by wakeypotter on Aug 4, 2019 10:33:00 GMT
Yes please
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Post by datguy on Aug 4, 2019 10:39:09 GMT
People were on here moaning that he was on the bench over Verlinden.
Immediately looked better as soon as he got on the pitch.
Sort of player at this level you build your team around, not shoehorn into a formation to try and fit him in.
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Post by thehoof on Aug 4, 2019 10:50:55 GMT
People were on here moaning that he was on the bench over Verlinden. Immediately looked better as soon as he got on the pitch. Sort of player at this level you build your team around, not shoehorn into a formation to try and fit him in. He played very well when he came on and should start at Charlton. If you build a team around Tom Ince the only way out of the division is downwards. He is not consistent or forceful enough to be your main protagonist.
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Post by datguy on Aug 4, 2019 10:56:44 GMT
People were on here moaning that he was on the bench over Verlinden. Immediately looked better as soon as he got on the pitch. Sort of player at this level you build your team around, not shoehorn into a formation to try and fit him in. He played very well when he came on and should start at Charlton. If you build a team around Tom Ince the only way out of the division is downwards. He is not consistent or forceful enough to be your main protagonist. Inconsistent or not, him and Powell are the only creative outlets we've got in the team. I'd much rather see the team set up around Ince than what we had yesterday. And tbh, for what he showed at Derby, I think he is consistent enough. He's Championship royalty. And we've got no real alternative.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 11:08:59 GMT
Davies Smith Batth Lindsay Clucas Ince Etebo Allen McClean Gregory Campbell You'd think we'd lost 0-6 to make 8 changes into the team, and even recalling a player that's on holiday. It's not gonna happen like that. Jones isn't going to change religion after just one game, which, no doubt, he'll see as a narrow defeat. Which is what it was, although we didn't even deserve that. I'm not a believer in the diamond, although I can see some aspects of it as good. We don't have the players for it, but we've trained five weeks explicitly for that, and probably longer, as Jones will have been trying to convert his players, while no one was looking. The problem as I see it is not the diamond itself. The real problem isn't even that we don't have the players for it. The real problem is that we don't have good players - and that our manager is unable to see that. The players that Rowett bought might have been good once, but over the last 12 months they have become positively bad, selfish, careless players. The players that Hughes bought - and including Butland - were sensational, but they detoriated and they have never picked themselves up. Partly because of poor coaching, partly because they were regarded as such big names, they were never asked to improve themselves. The players Jones bought were throwaways, even the two that cost money. There's a reason that they were on frees/small fees, and it's not just because it gave the players the freedom to negotiate better contracts. It's because in one way or another they had become misfits within the clubs (one for geographical reasons), and the respective managements decided at an early stage they weren't going to pursue keeping the players, trying to persuade them to re-sign , or decided they couldn't afford those better contracts. Jones in his vanity (or narcisissim) thought that by just waving his hand in five weeks/five months training all those bad players would become super in his jewelry box. It just doesn't work out that way. I would have thought that he had bought three guides, or on field captains as he calls them, that the rest of the team could look to for finding out how all those weird coaching schemes of the manager's were supposed to play out on the pitch. The money would have been there, Coates has stated, but Jones chose to profilate himself as the manager that didn't need stars for his diamond to shine. This may ultimately be his downfall, but we have to stick to and humour him for now. And we have to accept that there will no changes in the next line up except for Lindsay replacing Collins. Cricise him and his players here in the Oatcake all you like (I will), but on match days stand behind the team. No booing and jeering, please.
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Tom Ince
Aug 4, 2019 11:13:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by Gary Hackett on Aug 4, 2019 11:13:08 GMT
No point playing Ince unless he's on the right but yes he should be playing
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Post by uskstokie on Aug 4, 2019 11:14:35 GMT
If we start with the diomand then no. But if we go flat 442 then hell yes. Ince don’t suit a Diomand
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Post by uskstokie on Aug 4, 2019 11:18:00 GMT
Davies Smith Batth Lindsay Clucas Ince Etebo Allen McClean Gregory Campbell You'd think we'd lost 0-6 to make 8 changes into the team, and even recalling a player that's on holiday. It's not gonna happen like that. Jones isn't going to change religion after just one game, which, no doubt, he'll see as a narrow defeat. Which is what it was, although we didn't even deserve that. I'm not a believer in the diamond, although I can see some aspects of it as good. We don't have the players for it, but we've trained five weeks explicitly for that, and probably longer, as Jones will have been trying to convert his players, while no one was looking. The problem as I see it is not the diamond itself. The real problem isn't even that we don't have the players for it. The real problem is that we don't have good players - and that our manager is unable to see that. The players that Rowett bought might have been good once, but over the last 12 months they have become positively bad, selfish, careless players. The players that Hughes bought - and including Butland - were sensational, but they detoriated and they have never picked themselves up. Partly because of poor coaching, partly because they were regarded as such big names, they were never asked to improve themselves. The players Jones bought were throwaways, even the two that cost money. There's a reason that they were on frees/small fees, and it's not just because it gave the players the freedom to negotiate better contracts. It's because in one way or another they had become misfits within the clubs (one for geographical reasons), and the respective managements decided at an early stage they weren't going to pursue keeping the players, trying to persuade them to re-sign , or decided they couldn't afford those better contracts. Jones in his vanity (or narcisissim) thought that by just waving his hand in five weeks/five months training all those bad players would become super in his jewelry box. It just doesn't work out that way. I would have thought that he had bought three guides, or on field captains as he calls them, that the rest of the team could look to for finding out how all those weird coaching schemes of the manager's were supposed to play out on the pitch. The money would have been there, Coates has stated, but Jones chose to profilate himself as the manager that didn't need stars for his diamond to shine. This may ultimately be his downfall, but we have to stick to and humour him for now. And we have to accept that there will no changes in the next line up except for Lindsay replacing Collins. Cricise him and his players here in the Oatcake all you like (I will), but on match days stand behind the team. No booing and jeering, please. Mate one of the best posts I have seen on here for ages!
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Tom Ince
Aug 4, 2019 11:30:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by shrewspotter on Aug 4, 2019 11:30:17 GMT
I’d like to see Ince start but he isn’t going to ditch the diamond so I’m struggling to see where he will play. For me Powell deserves to start, so that could leave Powell up top alongside either Campbell or Gregory with Ince at 10 or vice versa, but I have a feeling Ince will be on the bench and it will be 2 from Campbell, Gregory and Vokes up top with Afobe dropped
I also think Woods should play holding as didn’t rate Cousins much
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 4, 2019 11:30:33 GMT
Davies Smith Batth Lindsay Clucas Ince Etebo Allen McClean Gregory Campbell You'd think we'd lost 0-6 to make 8 changes into the team, and even recalling a player that's on holiday. It's not gonna happen like that. Jones isn't going to change religion after just one game, which, no doubt, he'll see as a narrow defeat. Which is what it was, although we didn't even deserve that. I'm not a believer in the diamond, although I can see some aspects of it as good. We don't have the players for it, but we've trained five weeks explicitly for that, and probably longer, as Jones will have been trying to convert his players, while no one was looking. The problem as I see it is not the diamond itself. The real problem isn't even that we don't have the players for it. The real problem is that we don't have good players - and that our manager is unable to see that. The players that Rowett bought might have been good once, but over the last 12 months they have become positively bad, selfish, careless players. The players that Hughes bought - and including Butland - were sensational, but they detoriated and they have never picked themselves up. Partly because of poor coaching, partly because they were regarded as such big names, they were never asked to improve themselves. The players Jones bought were throwaways, even the two that cost money. There's a reason that they were on frees/small fees, and it's not just because it gave the players the freedom to negotiate better contracts. It's because in one way or another they had become misfits within the clubs (one for geographical reasons), and the respective managements decided at an early stage they weren't going to pursue keeping the players, trying to persuade them to re-sign , or decided they couldn't afford those better contracts. Jones in his vanity (or narcisissim) thought that by just waving his hand in five weeks/five months training all those bad players would become super in his jewelry box. It just doesn't work out that way. I would have thought that he had bought three guides, or on field captains as he calls them, that the rest of the team could look to for finding out how all those weird coaching schemes of the manager's were supposed to play out on the pitch. The money would have been there, Coates has stated, but Jones chose to profilate himself as the manager that didn't need stars for his diamond to shine. This may ultimately be his downfall, but we have to stick to and humour him for now. And we have to accept that there will no changes in the next line up except for Lindsay replacing Collins. Cricise him and his players here in the Oatcake all you like (I will), but on match days stand behind the team. No booing and jeering, please. Agree and disagree. Understand misgivings on the diamond (who wouldn't?). Have long wanted to know where NJ thinks his assists are coming from. Disagree on not having good players, in context - If the diamond proves not to work, I think we are one pacy or skillful left sided goal scoring AM - possibly loaned - and a man-to-man chat with N'Diaye away from a good vibrant team, but it needs a different approach- Butland Edwards Batth Collins Clucas/Ward Etebo N'Diaye Ince Powell ???? Gregory/Campbell
???? = Hoilett, Murphy, Watkins, Harry Wilson, Harvey Barnes, Tom Lawrence, Brady, .... (paid for with sales of Allen, Woods, Bauer etc) Agree again - tend to think NJ will go down fighting with the diamond now he's invested in it so heavily.
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Tom Ince
Aug 4, 2019 14:13:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by thehoof on Aug 4, 2019 14:13:30 GMT
He played very well when he came on and should start at Charlton. If you build a team around Tom Ince the only way out of the division is downwards. He is not consistent or forceful enough to be your main protagonist. Inconsistent or not, him and Powell are the only creative outlets we've got in the team. I'd much rather see the team set up around Ince than what we had yesterday. And tbh, for what he showed at Derby, I think he is consistent enough. He's Championship royalty. And we've got no real alternative. You are welcome to your opinion but over a whole season I saw very little evidence of Championship royalty- some good games but far more mediocre and non influential games. If this is the year where he lives up to the potential and ability I keep hearing about but don’t see that often, then great. We will see what happens over the next 10 games.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 14:20:40 GMT
You'd think we'd lost 0-6 to make 8 changes into the team, and even recalling a player that's on holiday. It's not gonna happen like that. Jones isn't going to change religion after just one game, which, no doubt, he'll see as a narrow defeat. Which is what it was, although we didn't even deserve that. I'm not a believer in the diamond, although I can see some aspects of it as good. We don't have the players for it, but we've trained five weeks explicitly for that, and probably longer, as Jones will have been trying to convert his players, while no one was looking. The problem as I see it is not the diamond itself. The real problem isn't even that we don't have the players for it. The real problem is that we don't have good players - and that our manager is unable to see that. The players that Rowett bought might have been good once, but over the last 12 months they have become positively bad, selfish, careless players. The players that Hughes bought - and including Butland - were sensational, but they detoriated and they have never picked themselves up. Partly because of poor coaching, partly because they were regarded as such big names, they were never asked to improve themselves. The players Jones bought were throwaways, even the two that cost money. There's a reason that they were on frees/small fees, and it's not just because it gave the players the freedom to negotiate better contracts. It's because in one way or another they had become misfits within the clubs (one for geographical reasons), and the respective managements decided at an early stage they weren't going to pursue keeping the players, trying to persuade them to re-sign , or decided they couldn't afford those better contracts. Jones in his vanity (or narcisissim) thought that by just waving his hand in five weeks/five months training all those bad players would become super in his jewelry box. It just doesn't work out that way. I would have thought that he had bought three guides, or on field captains as he calls them, that the rest of the team could look to for finding out how all those weird coaching schemes of the manager's were supposed to play out on the pitch. The money would have been there, Coates has stated, but Jones chose to profilate himself as the manager that didn't need stars for his diamond to shine. This may ultimately be his downfall, but we have to stick to and humour him for now. And we have to accept that there will no changes in the next line up except for Lindsay replacing Collins. Cricise him and his players here in the Oatcake all you like (I will), but on match days stand behind the team. No booing and jeering, please. Agree and disagree. Understand misgivings on the diamond (who wouldn't?). Have long wanted to know where NJ thinks his assists are coming from. Disagree on not having good players, in context - If the diamond proves not to work, I think we are one pacy or skillful left sided goal scoring AM - possibly loaned - and a man-to-man chat with N'Diaye away from a good vibrant team, but it needs a different approach- Butland Edwards Batth Collins Clucas/Ward Etebo N'Diaye Ince Powell ???? Gregory/Campbell
???? = Hoilett, Murphy, Watkins, Harry Wilson, Harvey Barnes, Tom Lawrence, Brady, .... (paid for with sales of Allen, Woods, Bauer etc) Agree again - tend to think NJ will go down fighting with the diamond now he's invested in it so heavily. What we have are good NAMES - they've forgotten how to be the good players they once were. Like Butland, he knows the very basic goalie skill not to take his eyes off a ball he's going to catch, but he does exactly that anyway, and it cost us points in the relegation season and last season. I'm not singling Jack out, but it's just one example. It won't help us, long term, to change for 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-5-2, 3-4-3 or 4-4-2 (tho it helped us slightly for 20 mins yesterday surprising the opposition - and ourselves). We tried those system ad lib over the last 5 years or more, and if you go back, you can see oatcakers cursing each and every one of those systems. What we miss is a manager who can tell the players how to play - that sounds incredibly childish, but nonetheless, manager after manager take for granted that the players will "buy into my vision". Of course the players say they do, but actually doing it seems to incredibly hard for our players.
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 4, 2019 14:37:03 GMT
Agree and disagree. Understand misgivings on the diamond (who wouldn't?). Have long wanted to know where NJ thinks his assists are coming from. Disagree on not having good players, in context - If the diamond proves not to work, I think we are one pacy or skillful left sided goal scoring AM - possibly loaned - and a man-to-man chat with N'Diaye away from a good vibrant team, but it needs a different approach- Butland Edwards Batth Collins Clucas/Ward Etebo N'Diaye Ince Powell ???? Gregory/Campbell
???? = Hoilett, Murphy, Watkins, Harry Wilson, Harvey Barnes, Tom Lawrence, Brady, .... (paid for with sales of Allen, Woods, Bauer etc) Agree again - tend to think NJ will go down fighting with the diamond now he's invested in it so heavily. What we have are good NAMES - they've forgotten how to be the good players they once were. Like Butland, he knows the very basic goalie skill not to take his eyes off a ball he's going to catch, but he does exactly that anyway, and it cost us points in the relegation season and last season. I'm not singling Jack out, but it's just one example. It won't help us, long term, to change for 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-5-2, 3-4-3 or 4-4-2 (tho it helped us slightly for 20 mins yesterday surprising the opposition - and ourselves). We tried those system ad lib over the last 5 years or more, and if you go back, you can see oatcakers cursing each and every one of those systems. What we miss is a manager who can tell the players how to play - that sounds incredibly childish, but nonetheless, manager after manager take for granted that the players will "buy into my vision". Of course the players say they do, but actually doing it seems to incredibly hard for our players. For too long now, though, i think we've not had a system to fit the players, or vice versa. A player is made better by those around them. A team does well when there are partnerships across the pitch (What's the point of being a target man without a winger? A creative midfielder passer without a mobile CF to make runs? etc; A tough tackling CDM without someone who can make the most of the balls you win?). It started becoming most acute in the last season in the PL, we didn't have a creative CM or striker anywhere near mobile enough to get us from back to front. Enter life in the Champs, and we play a system that doesn't suit Afobe, and which relies on goal+assist contributions from Ince and McClean when only the former can offer that. We play Vokes, whose strength is aerial, but without wingers. We play a diamond, now, without good attacking wingbacks. So, in other words, i think its not so much a system to blame as it is a consistent lack of coherent planning. Play the diamond but bloody well make sure we have landed a creative LB like Justin/Douglas before we do. If we play Vokes, ensure we have wingers to cross the ball to him etc. If we play 2 tough tackling midfielders to win the ball, make sure we have someone who can also pass it. Its about building a team. That way the names become good players again because they are doing what they are good at. Once the manager has done that, he can tell players how to play.
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Tom Ince
Aug 4, 2019 14:39:13 GMT
via mobile
Post by berahinosgoals on Aug 4, 2019 14:39:13 GMT
I dont like him but yes he should start in a 4231. We should revisit this diamond when we have some points on the board and maybe use it as a plan b until we have the exact right players for it.
Was looking forward to this season and believed in jones and his diamond but that yesterday was tragic, absolute fucking dog shit. Please not another season of absolute dross.
Change it.
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Tom Ince
Aug 4, 2019 14:40:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by stokefan1972 on Aug 4, 2019 14:40:54 GMT
Start who you want get rid of Allen and butland
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Tom Ince
Aug 4, 2019 14:50:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by Fred Merger on Aug 4, 2019 14:50:22 GMT
Start who you want get rid of Allen and butland Well if someone comes in with a cheeky late bid for either they could go for me. Especially Butland, who I'd let go for 17-18 million if that was offered!
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Post by loosestools on Aug 4, 2019 15:00:54 GMT
Start who you want get rid of Allen and butland Well if someone comes in with a cheeky late bid for either they could go for me. Especially Butland, who I'd let go for 17-18 million if that was offered! That ship has sailed for the time being. He needs to get himself together and step back up to the mark. Far too many basic errors, what on earth has happened to him? It must be in his head.
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Tom Ince
Aug 4, 2019 15:07:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by terryconroysmagic on Aug 4, 2019 15:07:45 GMT
Ince looked sharp yesterday for me but for me he’s very inconsistent, either plays very well or crap with no happy medium. Yesterday’s Ince on a consistent basis would be a considerable asset to the team
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Tom Ince
Aug 4, 2019 15:07:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by chayseeoatcake on Aug 4, 2019 15:07:55 GMT
Butland Smith. Batth. Collins. Ward. Cousins. Etebo. Clucas. Ince. Verlinden. Powell.
Davies McClean Vokes Campbell Woods Edwards Gregory
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 15:17:08 GMT
What we have are good NAMES - they've forgotten how to be the good players they once were. Like Butland, he knows the very basic goalie skill not to take his eyes off a ball he's going to catch, but he does exactly that anyway, and it cost us points in the relegation season and last season. I'm not singling Jack out, but it's just one example. It won't help us, long term, to change for 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-5-2, 3-4-3 or 4-4-2 (tho it helped us slightly for 20 mins yesterday surprising the opposition - and ourselves). We tried those system ad lib over the last 5 years or more, and if you go back, you can see oatcakers cursing each and every one of those systems. What we miss is a manager who can tell the players how to play - that sounds incredibly childish, but nonetheless, manager after manager take for granted that the players will "buy into my vision". Of course the players say they do, but actually doing it seems to incredibly hard for our players. For too long now, though, i think we've not had a system to fit the players, or vice versa. A player is made better by those around them. A team does well when there are partnerships across the pitch (What's the point of being a target man without a winger? A creative midfielder passer without a mobile CF to make runs? etc; A tough tackling CDM without someone who can make the most of the balls you win?). It started becoming most acute in the last season in the PL, we didn't have a creative CM or striker anywhere near mobile enough to get us from back to front. Enter life in the Champs, and we play a system that doesn't suit Afobe, and which relies on goal+assist contributions from Ince and McClean when only the former can offer that. We play Vokes, whose strength is aerial, but without wingers. We play a diamond, now, without good attacking wingbacks. So, in other words, i think its not so much a system to blame as it is a consistent lack of coherent planning. Play the diamond but bloody well make sure we have landed a creative LB like Justin/Douglas before we do. If we play Vokes, ensure we have wingers to cross the ball to him etc. If we play 2 tough tackling midfielders to win the ball, make sure we have someone who can also pass it. Its about building a team. That way the names become good players again because they are doing what they are good at. Once the manager has done that, he can tell players how to play. I agree with you there. We play with two sixes and a ten, but we don't have an eight, a creative midfielder, since our ten is expected to be just behind the striker. One of the sixes is expected to help the left wing back that we don't have (as for the other side I need to see more of what is going on), so he's not going to be able to help out creatively half the time, unless they combine to resort to long punts. We play no less than 2½ strikers, but the two of them are so limited with regards to basic skills such as controlling the ball and completely unable to do any runs with the ball themselves, but you actually feel sorry for them, because they naturally rely on our creative system, the wingers and the playmaker, to get them going. But we have zero creativity in the team, no wide men making meaningful runs with the ball, and no playmaker, so they never get going. And Nathan Jones has no idea that that is what is happening.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 4, 2019 19:02:41 GMT
Next question then... will he be allowed to start at the tip of a diamond?
It is rare to find such universal agreement on here... but if even those who don't rate him agreed he was excellent yesterday, surely he has to be given a chance to start next week? Otherwise, Jones is effectively signalling to him he has no future here no matter how much effort he puts in.
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Tom Ince
Aug 4, 2019 19:22:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by neddy on Aug 4, 2019 19:22:10 GMT
Next question then... will he be allowed to start at the tip of a diamond? It is rare to find such universal agreement on here... but if even those who don't rate him agreed he was excellent yesterday, surely he has to be given a chance to start next week? Otherwise, Jones is effectively signalling to him he has no future here no matter how much effort he puts in. Possibly if say Afobe or Vokes was dropped and Powell moved forward?
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Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 4, 2019 19:29:43 GMT
What we have are good NAMES - they've forgotten how to be the good players they once were. Like Butland, he knows the very basic goalie skill not to take his eyes off a ball he's going to catch, but he does exactly that anyway, and it cost us points in the relegation season and last season. I'm not singling Jack out, but it's just one example. It won't help us, long term, to change for 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-5-2, 3-4-3 or 4-4-2 (tho it helped us slightly for 20 mins yesterday surprising the opposition - and ourselves). We tried those system ad lib over the last 5 years or more, and if you go back, you can see oatcakers cursing each and every one of those systems. What we miss is a manager who can tell the players how to play - that sounds incredibly childish, but nonetheless, manager after manager take for granted that the players will "buy into my vision". Of course the players say they do, but actually doing it seems to incredibly hard for our players. For too long now, though, i think we've not had a system to fit the players, or vice versa. A player is made better by those around them. A team does well when there are partnerships across the pitch (What's the point of being a target man without a winger? A creative midfielder passer without a mobile CF to make runs? etc; A tough tackling CDM without someone who can make the most of the balls you win?). It started becoming most acute in the last season in the PL, we didn't have a creative CM or striker anywhere near mobile enough to get us from back to front. Enter life in the Champs, and we play a system that doesn't suit Afobe, and which relies on goal+assist contributions from Ince and McClean when only the former can offer that. We play Vokes, whose strength is aerial, but without wingers. We play a diamond, now, without good attacking wingbacks. So, in other words, i think its not so much a system to blame as it is a consistent lack of coherent planning. Play the diamond but bloody well make sure we have landed a creative LB like Justin/Douglas before we do. If we play Vokes, ensure we have wingers to cross the ball to him etc. If we play 2 tough tackling midfielders to win the ball, make sure we have someone who can also pass it. Its about building a team. That way the names become good players again because they are doing what they are good at. Once the manager has done that, he can tell players how to play. Brilliant post.
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Tom Ince
Aug 4, 2019 20:08:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by stokeykez on Aug 4, 2019 20:08:49 GMT
With his grotty diamond formation its amazing how useless we looked, put a winger on and he looks good, no shock there
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Tom Ince
Aug 4, 2019 20:43:34 GMT
via mobile
Post by superalexneil on Aug 4, 2019 20:43:34 GMT
Great when people talk about ince and his inability to be consistent. Well lets be honest if he was he wouldn't be playing for us. Atleast he can create and turn a defender inside out.
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Post by liathroid on Aug 7, 2019 16:29:49 GMT
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Post by marylandstoke on Aug 7, 2019 16:34:46 GMT
Awesome if it’s true. Hope he hasn’t been to the Nathan school of public pronouncements.
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Post by mattythestokie on Aug 7, 2019 16:37:48 GMT
We always seem a better team with Ince in.
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Tom Ince
Aug 7, 2019 16:41:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2019 16:41:15 GMT
Powell and Ince should be starting. Most Championship clubs, if not all, would do anything to have them both in their starting 11. Apart from Stoke, incidentally
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