|
Post by Veritas on Jun 3, 2019 8:51:10 GMT
I distinctly remember suggesting 2 strikers a few years back and was shot down as “nobody uses 2 strikers anymore”. Funny how suddenly it’s perfectly reasonable to use 2 strikers again. Systems go in and out of fashion and it won’t be long before the Diamond System is old hat. I’m not a big fan as I think it leaves you exposed to the pace of the game nowadays and relies on certain positions having superhero speed and stamina. It's already out of fashion again. Liverpool just won the most exciting cl final ever playing with three strikers and a lot of high pressing, so naturally it'll be the thing to do for the foreseeable future. We do have three strikers on our books, so we can do it, even if they will never score more than 10 goals per season, combined! Exciting! Did you actually watch the final?
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2019 8:53:26 GMT
I distinctly remember suggesting 2 strikers a few years back and was shot down as “nobody uses 2 strikers anymore”. Funny how suddenly it’s perfectly reasonable to use 2 strikers again. Systems go in and out of fashion and it won’t be long before the Diamond System is old hat. I’m not a big fan as I think it leaves you exposed to the pace of the game nowadays and relies on certain positions having superhero speed and stamina. It's already out of fashion again. Liverpool just won the most exciting cl final ever playing with three strikers and a lot of high pressing, so naturally it'll be the thing to do for the foreseeable future. We do have three strikers on our books, so we can do it, even if they will never score more than 10 goals per season, combined! You can’t just do it with any three strikers though. And they’ve been playing that way for years, I don’t think people are suddenly going to start copying them if they hadn’t already planned to.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 8:53:33 GMT
It's already out of fashion again. Liverpool just won the most exciting cl final ever playing with three strikers and a lot of high pressing, so naturally it'll be the thing to do for the foreseeable future. We do have three strikers on our books, so we can do it, even if they will never score more than 10 goals per season, combined! Exciting! Did you actually watch the final? Of course I did! And did I really mean what I said?
|
|
|
Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 3, 2019 9:00:29 GMT
I distinctly remember suggesting 2 strikers a few years back and was shot down as “nobody uses 2 strikers anymore”. Funny how suddenly it’s perfectly reasonable to use 2 strikers again. Systems go in and out of fashion and it won’t be long before the Diamond System is old hat. I’m not a big fan as I think it leaves you exposed to the pace of the game nowadays and relies on certain positions having superhero speed and stamina. It's already out of fashion again. Liverpool just won the most exciting cl final ever playing with three strikers and a lot of high pressing, so naturally it'll be the thing to do for the foreseeable future. We do have three strikers on our books, so we can do it, even if they will never score more than 10 goals per season, combined! Klopp’s been gegenpressing for his entire mangerial career, it’s very hard to implement because you need players with utmost technical and physical ability to play it. His sides very often get close but lose out when it comes to crunch time. That was just his second final win in 8 I believe.
|
|
|
Post by dreamtheater on Jun 3, 2019 19:28:38 GMT
The fabled Dutch in the 70s proved to me all this talk of formations is just a purulent pile of fetid dogshit..It is all about the PLAYERS and their ability to be two footed, mobile, intelligent, adapt to any situation and play and slot into any position ....all this talk of diamonds..... fucking horse shit as far as I am concerned.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2019 19:46:59 GMT
The fabled Dutch in the 70s proved to me all this talk of formations is just a purulent pile of fetid dogshit..It is all about the PLAYERS and their ability to be two footed, mobile, intelligent, adapt to any situation and play and slot into any position ....all this talk of diamonds..... fucking horse shit as far as I am concerned. And how many players/teams historically have been able to do that? The Dutch Total Football side is actually one of the biggest arguments for the importance of tactics. It was a system developed and tinkered with over many years by managers like Rinus Michels. The players didn’t just wake up one day and decide they could all play any position.
|
|
|
Post by dreamtheater on Jun 3, 2019 19:55:21 GMT
So ....play like the dutch then. Loose formation not rigid structure and tactics .as I said 'formations' and 'rigid approaches' = fucking horsehit
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2019 20:00:14 GMT
So ....play like the dutch then. Loose formation not rigid structure and tactics .as I said 'formations' and 'rigid approaches' = fucking horsehit A formation doesn’t necessarily equate to a rigid approach though Tony. They’re increasingly fluid these days, you have one shape with the ball, another without it, change it mid-game etc. If it was as easy as ‘play like the Dutch’, 1) Everyone would just do that 2) The Dutch would’ve won more
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on Jun 3, 2019 20:46:07 GMT
And I thought you'd be impressed that I'd launched myself headlong in to a discussion on my least favourite topic ! Is that what you call launching yourself headlong? I look forward to the slides from your exotic holiday in Skegness... Leave the kid ALONE! 😁
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 3, 2019 21:30:08 GMT
One thing it has done is made me very interested to watch some Pre season games and see how it goes.
Because preseason usually is just about fitness and the results mean fuck all but this one has to be about getting a side gelling and understanding the system. I find that shit fascinating.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2019 21:36:59 GMT
One thing it has done is made me very interested to watch some Pre season games and see how it goes. Because preseason usually is just about fitness and the results mean fuck all but this one has to be about getting a side gelling and understanding the system. I find that shit fascinating. Yeah, increasingly I think you can see what is and isn’t going to work even in pre-season as well. The dicking at Burton didn’t bode well for Hughes’ wing backs. The way Afobe was sluggish and isolated in Rowett’s 433 against Wolves’ children proved eerily prescient as well.
|
|
|
Post by somersetstokie on Jun 3, 2019 21:49:09 GMT
One thing it has done is made me very interested to watch some Pre season games and see how it goes. Because preseason usually is just about fitness and the results mean fuck all but this one has to be about getting a side gelling and understanding the system. I find that shit fascinating. Day 1 of pre season training. The Brian Clough coaching manual is revived. "This is the ball. The ball is your friend."
|
|
|
Post by greyman on Jun 3, 2019 21:53:14 GMT
This thread and the tactical innovation on it could revolutionise football as we know it.
|
|
|
Post by thehoof on Jun 3, 2019 21:56:59 GMT
One thing it has done is made me very interested to watch some Pre season games and see how it goes. Because preseason usually is just about fitness and the results mean fuck all but this one has to be about getting a side gelling and understanding the system. I find that shit fascinating. Yeah, increasingly I think you can see what is and isn’t going to work even in pre-season as well. The dicking at Burton didn’t bode well for Hughes’ wing backs. The way Afobe was sluggish and isolated in Rowett’s 433 against Wolves’ children proved eerily prescient as well. As did the 0-0 scoreline😁
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 22:39:55 GMT
Although the surrounding teams weren’t up to the standard of today’s top 6, Ancelotti’s Chelsea made easy work of the league using it a few years back.
|
|
|
Post by dreamtheater on Jun 4, 2019 15:06:38 GMT
So ....play like the dutch then. Loose formation not rigid structure and tactics .as I said 'formations' and 'rigid approaches' = fucking horsehit A formation doesn’t necessarily equate to a rigid approach though Tony. They’re increasingly fluid these days, you have one shape with the ball, another without it, change it mid-game etc. If it was as easy as ‘play like the Dutch’, 1) Everyone would just do that 2) The Dutch would’ve won more SO as I said, Its all about the players, you get 11 very good ones. You can beat anyone
|
|
|
Post by supersimonstainrod on Jun 4, 2019 15:35:31 GMT
The fabled Dutch in the 70s proved to me all this talk of formations is just a purulent pile of fetid dogshit..It is all about the PLAYERS and their ability to be two footed, mobile, intelligent, adapt to any situation and play and slot into any position ....all this talk of diamonds..... fucking horse shit as far as I am concerned. And how many players/teams historically have been able to do that? The Dutch Total Football side is actually one of the biggest arguments for the importance of tactics. It was a system developed and tinkered with over many years by managers like Rinus Michels. The players didn’t just wake up one day and decide they could all play any position. It also had Cruyff,one of the most tactically advanced players ever,acting as effectively an extension of Michels' tactical mind,telling people where they needed to be on the pitch as play developed.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 4, 2019 15:40:22 GMT
A formation doesn’t necessarily equate to a rigid approach though Tony. They’re increasingly fluid these days, you have one shape with the ball, another without it, change it mid-game etc. If it was as easy as ‘play like the Dutch’, 1) Everyone would just do that 2) The Dutch would’ve won more SO as I said, Its all about the players, you get 11 very good ones. You can beat anyone Only if you use them properly with the system that gets the best out of them. If you stick your best 11 players in anywhere then often you’ll come unstuck if the blend isn’t right. That’s what Sven and then McClaren were guilty of for England, trying to get all of Scholes/Gerrard/Lampard into the side rather than having the bollocks to drop one. You pick the best team, even if that doesn’t necessarily include all your best players.
|
|
|
Post by Veritas on Jun 4, 2019 19:03:33 GMT
A formation doesn’t necessarily equate to a rigid approach though Tony. They’re increasingly fluid these days, you have one shape with the ball, another without it, change it mid-game etc. If it was as easy as ‘play like the Dutch’, 1) Everyone would just do that 2) The Dutch would’ve won more SO as I said, Its all about the players, you get 11 very good ones. You can beat anyone If that is the case why didn't Hungary in 1954 and Holland in either 1974 or 78 win the world cup? Or as has been pointed elsewhere picking the best three English midfielders of their generation not translate to us dominating other teams midfields? The answer is team balance, cohesion and tactical gameplan are just as important and sometimes even more so.
|
|
|
Post by berahinosgoals on Jun 4, 2019 19:08:19 GMT
Certainly not going to doubt it until its failed when the manager has his own chosen players failing in it
|
|
|
Post by FullerMagic on Jul 2, 2019 19:04:25 GMT
|
|
|
Post by PotterLog on Jul 3, 2019 9:46:09 GMT
A formation doesn’t necessarily equate to a rigid approach though Tony. They’re increasingly fluid these days, you have one shape with the ball, another without it, change it mid-game etc. If it was as easy as ‘play like the Dutch’, 1) Everyone would just do that 2) The Dutch would’ve won more SO as I said, Its all about the players, you get 11 very good ones. You can beat anyone Hard to overstate how completely misguided this notion is
|
|
|
Post by marrer on Jul 3, 2019 9:49:53 GMT
I'm a straight 4-4-2 man myself. Nothing overly elaborate, it may not hit the greatest peaks but at least all the combatants know how it should work. Football's missionary position you could say So are you part of the couple or the two foursomes? 😀
|
|
|
Post by neddy on Jul 3, 2019 9:54:51 GMT
Really hard to see McClean and Ince fitting in? Will Ince want to be deputy to Powell and McLean back up left back or game changer from the bench?
|
|
|
Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jul 3, 2019 9:56:57 GMT
Really hard to see McClean and Ince fitting in? Will Ince want to be deputy to Powell and McLean back up left back or game changer from the bench? In the starting formation I can't see a place for either, but given Jones' half decent record of converting players to certain positions, I wouldn't be too shocked to see McClean used in the left back position. I think he has played there before at WBA too.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 3, 2019 9:57:27 GMT
I’m more worried about where this leaves Verlinden.
|
|
|
Post by neddy on Jul 3, 2019 9:59:22 GMT
I’m more worried about where this leaves Verlinden. My guess is loan unless Ince sold....
|
|
|
Post by neddy on Jul 3, 2019 10:00:25 GMT
Really hard to see McClean and Ince fitting in? Will Ince want to be deputy to Powell and McLean back up left back or game changer from the bench? In the starting formation I can't see a place for either, but given Jones' half decent record of converting players to certain positions, I wouldn't be too shocked to see McClean used in the left back position. I think he has played there before at WBA too. Bet they will be pretty unhappy in the camp given regular starters last season?
|
|
|
Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jul 3, 2019 10:00:35 GMT
I’m more worried about where this leaves Verlinden. Indeed, I love the idea of a diamond but it does hamstring certain players in the squad because it's a little more restrictive than more conventional formations. Verlinden's still young so you would hope would have some measure of versatility. If not, I agree it's hard to see where he will feature.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 3, 2019 10:04:44 GMT
I’m more worried about where this leaves Verlinden. Indeed, I love the idea of a diamond but it does hamstring certain players in the squad because it's a little more restrictive than more conventional formations. Verlinden's still young so you would hope would have some measure of versatility. If not, I agree it's hard to see where he will feature. I don’t tbh. Always loved watching wingers and this totally stops that. Yeah you have the full backs but I love it when you have the two of them teaming up down the flank. Verlinden is a fantastic young talent, he should ask to leave imo.
|
|