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Post by trickydicky73 on Jun 2, 2019 9:38:51 GMT
What are people's thoughts on it as a system? Anybody think it's flawed?
Who has used it to great effect?
Anyone a massive fan of it, in general?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 2, 2019 9:44:34 GMT
Like any system, it can work, with the right personnel.
Lambo's Norwich had a brilliant version of it around 2010-2012
Derby used it to good effect in the play-off semi finals but to awful effect in the final.
Spurs got to a Champion's League final with a version of it.
And of course there's Luton.
I think it can leave you vulnerable against teams who play with a lot of width, and it places an enormous strain on the full backs, but if you get it right it's a really exciting system.
Weirdly I think if Lambert had used it more with us we might've stayed up.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 2, 2019 9:46:11 GMT
Juventus also had a belting one a few years back when they got the CL final.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jun 2, 2019 9:47:35 GMT
You need lung-busting, superhuman wingbacks for it to work, and that's why it's inherently stupid. We don't have those, they're not exactly easy to find and therefore really expensive, and the teams that have them typically also play with a diamond, so they want to keep them, making them even more expensive.
I like wide formations because I like watching wingers, which is also why I'm not a great fan of the theory behind it. It also means that players we have become somewhat redundant, although I really don't care for Ince and McClean at all, it means we need a big shake-up in midfield.
But, of course, if it works and leads to wins, that's obviously the most important thing. If it does actually lead to zippy, clever passing with attacking intent as well, fair enough.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Jun 2, 2019 9:47:54 GMT
Like any system, it can work, with the right personnel. Lambo's Norwich had a brilliant version of it around 2010-2012 Derby used it to good effect in the play-off semi finals but to awful effect in the final. Spurs got to a Champion's League final with a version of it. And of course there's Luton. I think it can leave you vulnerable against teams who play with a lot of width, and it places an enormous strain on the full backs, but if you get it right it's a really exciting system. Weirdly I think if Lambert had used it more with us we might've stayed up. And denied us the life enhancing joy that Rowett gave. |
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Post by Gods on Jun 2, 2019 10:12:18 GMT
I'm a straight 4-4-2 man myself. Nothing overly elaborate, it may not hit the greatest peaks but at least all the combatants know how it should work. Football's missionary position you could say  |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Jun 2, 2019 10:15:11 GMT
I'm a straight 4-4-2 man myself. Nothing overly elaborate, it may not hit the greatest peaks but at least all the combatants know how it should work. Football's missionary position you could say You're so vanilla! 😁 |
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 2, 2019 10:24:47 GMT
I always liked the 4231 formation. Think it offers everything. Solidity and creativity.
Problem with us now is we don’t have the pace for the 3 or the power for the 2.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jun 2, 2019 10:29:11 GMT
I always liked the 4231 formation. Think it offers everything. Solidity and creativity. Problem with us now is we don’t have the pace for the 3 or the power for the 2. 4231 is my personal favourite for a side like ours. Solid yet provides plenty of support for attacking. Doesn't require players with specialist / niche talents like 433, diamond, three-at-the-back etc. It makes the most of limited, unspectacular players. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 2, 2019 10:33:11 GMT
It’s massively flawed.
But he’s got to make it work again by hook or by crook.
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Post by nott1 on Jun 2, 2019 11:03:49 GMT
Any system is open to be cracked, so eventually it won't work and therefore any manager who sticks rigidly to it will ultimately fail.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 5:55:05 GMT
2-3-5 is the way to go,it worked perfectly until Alf Ramsey came along with his revolutionary 4-4-2 system....and what did he ever win with that !
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 3, 2019 6:18:24 GMT
2-3-5 is the way to go,it worked perfectly until Alf Ramsey came along with his revolutionary 4-4-2 system....and what did he ever win with that ! He played 433 didn’t he? The wingless wonders.... |
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Post by adi on Jun 3, 2019 6:22:47 GMT
I distinctly remember suggesting 2 strikers a few years back and was shot down as “nobody uses 2 strikers anymore”. Funny how suddenly it’s perfectly reasonable to use 2 strikers again. Systems go in and out of fashion and it won’t be long before the Diamond System is old hat.
I’m not a big fan as I think it leaves you exposed to the pace of the game nowadays and relies on certain positions having superhero speed and stamina.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 3, 2019 6:24:17 GMT
It’s as flawed as any kind of formation, Chris Wilder’s version formation has a spin on it that’s much more difficult to organise positionally than Jones’ take on it. 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2 are flawed if you play inverted wingers like we did late under Hughes and when we played 4-4-2 at Shrewsbury we looked dreadful. Just because it’s a tradtional formation doesn’t mean it’s any less flawed than any other. Essentially, it needs fullbacks with good fitness and good crossing, but the key part that we don’t have yet are a pair of carrileros in the middle 2, these guys essentially operate box to box but sideways covering the channels left by the fullbacks. Allen can’t do it, neither can Woods. Fullbacks are important but it’s underpinned by these guys winning the ball up with a medium block.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 3, 2019 6:25:20 GMT
I distinctly remember suggesting 2 strikers a few years back and was shot down as “nobody uses 2 strikers anymore”. Funny how suddenly it’s perfectly reasonable to use 2 strikers again. Systems go in and out of fashion and it won’t be long before the Diamond System is old hat. I’m not a big fan as I think it leaves you exposed to the pace of the game nowadays and relies on certain positions having superhero speed and stamina. Tbf nobody did, Conte caused a seismic shift in English tactica when shifted to 3 at the back, before that I can’t think of a funky formation being used at the top level for a long long time. |
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Post by adi on Jun 3, 2019 6:29:50 GMT
I distinctly remember suggesting 2 strikers a few years back and was shot down as “nobody uses 2 strikers anymore”. Funny how suddenly it’s perfectly reasonable to use 2 strikers again. Systems go in and out of fashion and it won’t be long before the Diamond System is old hat. I’m not a big fan as I think it leaves you exposed to the pace of the game nowadays and relies on certain positions having superhero speed and stamina. Tbf nobody did, Conte caused a seismic shift in English tactica when shifted to 3 at the back, before that I can’t think of a funky formation being used at the top level for a long long time. I suppose 4-4-2 would be the classic for 2 strikers. I just hope we settle on a formation next season with the players that suit it rather than those that absolutely don’t! |
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Post by vahl on Jun 3, 2019 6:33:26 GMT
The diamond is a bit like a bottle of Coca-Cola, with a secret ingredient.
😂😂😂
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Post by ohbottom on Jun 3, 2019 6:52:48 GMT
Saw this thread and wondered if it might be about the Koh-i-noor or Star of Africa. Very disappointed to find it's just another footie thread....
Whatever happened to the christmas tree?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 7:12:08 GMT
As with any system, it depends on how it is built. Sheffield United had a very weird system last season but it worked because it had players in it that suited it. Change two of the wide centre halves for players that can't play football and it falls down, for example.
The diamond, wing backs, the Christmas tree, 1 up front, 2 up front, 3 up front are no different.
Any system in it's basic form is all about limiting goalscoring chances for the opposition and creating chances that suit your attacking players - something none of our managers have done in recent times as they've bought players that don't fit any real tactical system and are a bit of a mish mash, pretty much from the midfield onwards.
So the long and short of any tactical system hinges on the recruitment of players.
As for the diamond, it helps if you have a manager that is well versed in it and we have that. It's now about the recruitment of players for that system and the time to bed it in.
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Post by Gods on Jun 3, 2019 7:12:15 GMT
Won't be long before we have a thread called 'The Failed Diamond'
#keepitsimple
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2019 7:23:49 GMT
Won't be long until we have a thread called 'The Failed Diamond' #keepitsimple Christ, you probably order egg and chips when you go on holiday don't you Gods. When you go for a curry do you ask if they've got any chicken nuggets? Do you go to a beer festival and ask for a pint of Carling? |
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Post by RF10 on Jun 3, 2019 7:26:27 GMT
The AC Milan Diamond around 2004-07 Was pretty special. Dida, Cafu, Nesta, Stam, Maldini, Pirlo, Seedorf, Gattuso, Kaka, Shevchenko, Inzaghi.
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Post by Gods on Jun 3, 2019 7:28:23 GMT
Won't be long until we have a thread called 'The Failed Diamond' #keepitsimple Christ, you probably order egg and chips when you go on holiday don't you Gods. When you go for a curry do you ask if they've got any chicken nuggets? Do you go to a beer festival and ask for a pint of Carling? And I thought you'd be impressed that I'd launched myself headlong in to a discussion on my least favourite topic ! |
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Post by somersetstokie on Jun 3, 2019 7:32:10 GMT
I miss the "Cage" myself.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2019 7:36:08 GMT
Christ, you probably order egg and chips when you go on holiday don't you Gods. When you go for a curry do you ask if they've got any chicken nuggets? Do you go to a beer festival and ask for a pint of Carling? And I thought you'd be impressed that I'd launched myself headlong in to a discussion on my least favourite topic ! Is that what you call launching yourself headlong? I look forward to the slides from your exotic holiday in Skegness... |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 3, 2019 8:11:26 GMT
As with any system, it depends on how it is built. Sheffield United had a very weird system last season but it worked because it had players in it that suited it. Change two of the wide centre halves for players that can't play football and it falls down, for example. The diamond, wing backs, the Christmas tree, 1 up front, 2 up front, 3 up front are no different. Any system in it's basic form is all about limiting goalscoring chances for the opposition and creating chances that suit your attacking players - something none of our managers have done in recent times as they've bought players that don't fit any real tactical system and are a bit of a mish mash, pretty much from the midfield onwards. So the long and short of any tactical system hinges on the recruitment of players. As for the diamond, it helps if you have a manager that is well versed in it and we have that. It's now about the recruitment of players for that system and the time to bed it in. and the tactics should always inform the recruitment, not the other way around. This was half the problem with Rowett IMO, he ended up with a load of player he didn’t know how to use properly or find the correct positions for. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 3, 2019 8:36:30 GMT
All formations are flawed but equally they have strengths in that they expose the flaws in other formations. The trick is to have players who are committed and suited to the formation, maximise the advantages and as far as possible cover for the weaknesses.
The main strength of the diamond is that it puts pressure on the opposition in the penalty box which increases the chance of scoring, sucks the defenders inside and allow the fullbacks to ghost in from the wings. The weakness is that the midfield can get overrun and the team is very vulnerable to counter attacks down the wing. If played well it's exciting and leads to goals. If played badly the team look like mugs.
I'm looking forward to see it played with a team chosen and coached to play it. Whether it will work I have no idea but if it does it will be good to watch and far better than the ploddy and disconnected 433 we saw last season.
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Post by neilb987 on Jun 3, 2019 8:38:47 GMT
I like the idea of the 'Diamond', but like other systems it requires the right sort of players in the right places. Pacy attacking fullbacks, solid centre-backs, a mobile defensive midfielder who can both tackle and pass well, two box-to-box midfielders, a genuine Number Ten (specialist position!) and a pair of strikers with complementary styles who work together well and score loads of goals. Without the right players, it will not work properly. If Jones manages to get the players he needs it would be a joy to watch ...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 8:49:51 GMT
I distinctly remember suggesting 2 strikers a few years back and was shot down as “nobody uses 2 strikers anymore”. Funny how suddenly it’s perfectly reasonable to use 2 strikers again. Systems go in and out of fashion and it won’t be long before the Diamond System is old hat. I’m not a big fan as I think it leaves you exposed to the pace of the game nowadays and relies on certain positions having superhero speed and stamina. It's already out of fashion again. Liverpool just won the most exciting cl final ever playing with three strikers and a lot of high pressing, so naturally it'll be the thing to do for the foreseeable future. We do have three strikers on our books, so we can do it, even if they will never score more than 10 goals per season, combined! |
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