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Post by tony1234 on May 11, 2019 10:21:25 GMT
Of course he'll stay. Who is going to spend millions on him and invest millions more on his wages? Anybody scouting us over the past dozen games must have thought he'd won a raffle. I wonder if selling clubs have a special and heavily inflated "Stoke price"? It honestly does seem on occasion that we are like the posh attractive (but very gullible) woman in the "I saw you coming" sketches (Enfield/Whitehouse). I might live with that if we were either posh or attractive. The top of our club are, by and large, amateurs - epitomised by Cartwright. Whereas we appoint someone from Leek Town (aka the English Division 9), this is the kind of experience that Norwich sought in their DOF - www.itv.com/news/anglia/2017-04-06/stuart-webber-who-is-norwich-citys-new-sporting-director/i.e. recent promotion experience with a team in which he had a big roll; experience of Liverpool as Director of Recruitment Leeds have Victor Orta Orta's - director of football when Sevilla won the UEFA Cup in 2006 + roles as technical director at Zenit St Petersburg and Elche, and he played a role in Boro's promotion season in 2016 Jesus Garcia Pitarch at Villa had been DOF at Valencia, then moved on to Atletico Madrid and Real Zaragoza. Our experience came from Leek! Yep, f***** Leek. We have a low grade hobbyist - making and/or allowing the club to make decisions that I'd say 4 in 5 "amateur" fans would have never dreamt of, so bad they were, so lacking in basic sense. I fear we simply can't progress with the nepotism at the club that allows this sort of thing - we often look a the players on the pitch as out clue to the health of club, whereas alot is explained about our demise if we look at those who are supposedly running it.
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Post by lordb on May 11, 2019 10:30:13 GMT
I wonder if selling clubs have a special and heavily inflated "Stoke price"? It honestly does seem on occasion that we are like the posh attractive (but very gullible) woman in the "I saw you coming" sketches (Enfield/Whitehouse). I might live with that if we were either posh or attractive. The top of our club are, by and large, amateurs - epitomised by Cartwright. Whereas we appoint someone from Leek Town (aka the English Division 9), this is the kind of experience that Norwich sought in their DOF - www.itv.com/news/anglia/2017-04-06/stuart-webber-who-is-norwich-citys-new-sporting-director/i.e. recent promotion experience with a team in which he had a big roll; experience of Liverpool as Director of Recruitment Leeds have Victor Orta Orta's - director of football when Sevilla won the UEFA Cup in 2006 + roles as technical director at Zenit St Petersburg and Elche, and he played a role in Boro's promotion season in 2016 Jesus Garcia Pitarch at Villa had been DOF at Valencia, then moved on to Atletico Madrid and Real Zaragoza. Our experience came from Leek! Yep, f***** Leek. We have a low grade hobbyist - making and/or allowing the club to make decisions that I'd say 4 in 5 "amateur" fans would have never dreamt of, so bad they were, so lacking in basic sense. I fear we simply can't progress with the nepotism at the club that allows this sort of thing - we often look a the players on the pitch as out clue to the health of club, whereas alot is explained about our demise if we look at those who are supposedly running it. Cartwright past with Leek Town had zero influence in him getting the job. He was appointed because if his work with Beswicks e.t.c. However that aside the fact is the role Cartwright has is not as important as it should be. Scholes has far too much say over footballing decisions. If we want a proper Director of Football (& I think we do) then that means that role is far more involved than Cartwright's and would mean Scholes role is diminished. Once such a role exists then we might attract a high calibre candidate. In the meantime stop focussing on Cartwright and keep the pressure on Scholes.
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Post by magwitch on May 11, 2019 10:34:34 GMT
We’ve just paid £12.5 million for him in January so why would he not stay🤔 News to me that he was bought in January. I always thought Rowett bought him last summer, or was it Scholes?
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 11, 2019 10:35:29 GMT
The top of our club are, by and large, amateurs - epitomised by Cartwright. Whereas we appoint someone from Leek Town (aka the English Division 9), this is the kind of experience that Norwich sought in their DOF - www.itv.com/news/anglia/2017-04-06/stuart-webber-who-is-norwich-citys-new-sporting-director/i.e. recent promotion experience with a team in which he had a big roll; experience of Liverpool as Director of Recruitment Leeds have Victor Orta Orta's - director of football when Sevilla won the UEFA Cup in 2006 + roles as technical director at Zenit St Petersburg and Elche, and he played a role in Boro's promotion season in 2016 Jesus Garcia Pitarch at Villa had been DOF at Valencia, then moved on to Atletico Madrid and Real Zaragoza. Our experience came from Leek! Yep, f***** Leek. We have a low grade hobbyist - making and/or allowing the club to make decisions that I'd say 4 in 5 "amateur" fans would have never dreamt of, so bad they were, so lacking in basic sense. I fear we simply can't progress with the nepotism at the club that allows this sort of thing - we often look a the players on the pitch as out clue to the health of club, whereas alot is explained about our demise if we look at those who are supposedly running it. Cartwright past with Leek Town had zero influence in him getting the job. He was appointed because if his work with Beswicks e.t.c. However that aside the fact is the role Cartwright has is not as important as it should be. Scholes has far too much say over footballing decisions. If we want a proper Director of Football (& I think we do) then that means that role is far more involved than Cartwright's and would mean Scholes role is diminished. Once such a role exists then we might attract a high calibre candidate. In the meantime stop focussing on Cartwright and keep the pressure on Scholes. Both excellent posts.
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Post by lordb on May 11, 2019 10:35:56 GMT
We’ve just paid £12.5 million for him in January so why would he not stay🤔 News to me that he was bought in January. I always thought Rowett bought him last summer. Yes and no. Technically we bought him in January.
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 11, 2019 10:37:09 GMT
He's a 3m-5m player. He had the record of a 3m-5m player over the past 8-9 seasons, but we paid a price based on 1 season. Silly silly Stoke. But then again, typical Stoke. Run by clowns. Jordan Rhodes scored bag loads for 4 seasons. At his peak, that was a 10m championship player. Mitrovic and Gayle had done it at a higher level, so I can get it if its 10m+ for them. But Afobe - hes on a similar level to Nakki Wells with a good year in his locker and several mediocre ones. He cost Burnely 5m. Waghorn similar. He cost Derby 5m. So why was Afobe not 5m? Answer: Cartwright. Again. 12m should have got us Austin, Gayle, Gray.... Did Cartwright work for Wolves too when they payed over 10 mil for him?
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Post by tony1234 on May 11, 2019 10:37:49 GMT
The top of our club are, by and large, amateurs - epitomised by Cartwright. Whereas we appoint someone from Leek Town (aka the English Division 9), this is the kind of experience that Norwich sought in their DOF - www.itv.com/news/anglia/2017-04-06/stuart-webber-who-is-norwich-citys-new-sporting-director/i.e. recent promotion experience with a team in which he had a big roll; experience of Liverpool as Director of Recruitment Leeds have Victor Orta Orta's - director of football when Sevilla won the UEFA Cup in 2006 + roles as technical director at Zenit St Petersburg and Elche, and he played a role in Boro's promotion season in 2016 Jesus Garcia Pitarch at Villa had been DOF at Valencia, then moved on to Atletico Madrid and Real Zaragoza. Our experience came from Leek! Yep, f***** Leek. We have a low grade hobbyist - making and/or allowing the club to make decisions that I'd say 4 in 5 "amateur" fans would have never dreamt of, so bad they were, so lacking in basic sense. I fear we simply can't progress with the nepotism at the club that allows this sort of thing - we often look a the players on the pitch as out clue to the health of club, whereas alot is explained about our demise if we look at those who are supposedly running it. Cartwright past with Leek Town had zero influence in him getting the job. He was appointed because if his work with Beswicks e.t.c. However that aside the fact is the role Cartwright has is not as important as it should be. Scholes has far too much say over footballing decisions. If we want a proper Director of Football (& I think we do) then that means that role is far more involved than Cartwright's and would mean Scholes role is diminished. Once such a role exists then we might attract a high calibre candidate. In the meantime stop focussing on Cartwright and keep the pressure on Scholes. Yes, true re: Cartwright - the fact he is anywhere near the club's decision makers is beyond dreadful, but Scholes .... yes you are very right to highlight him.
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Post by tony1234 on May 11, 2019 10:41:38 GMT
He's a 3m-5m player. He had the record of a 3m-5m player over the past 8-9 seasons, but we paid a price based on 1 season. Silly silly Stoke. But then again, typical Stoke. Run by clowns. Jordan Rhodes scored bag loads for 4 seasons. At his peak, that was a 10m championship player. Mitrovic and Gayle had done it at a higher level, so I can get it if its 10m+ for them. But Afobe - hes on a similar level to Nakki Wells with a good year in his locker and several mediocre ones. He cost Burnely 5m. Waghorn similar. He cost Derby 5m. So why was Afobe not 5m? Answer: Cartwright. Again. 12m should have got us Austin, Gayle, Gray.... Did Cartwright work for Wolves too When they payed over 10 mil for him? Yes, other clubs make ridiculous decision too! One suspects Wolves happily paid what they knew Stoke would agree to pay them (minus a 2m admin fee).
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Post by lordb on May 11, 2019 10:42:44 GMT
He's a 3m-5m player. He had the record of a 3m-5m player over the past 8-9 seasons, but we paid a price based on 1 season. Silly silly Stoke. But then again, typical Stoke. Run by clowns. Jordan Rhodes scored bag loads for 4 seasons. At his peak, that was a 10m championship player. Mitrovic and Gayle had done it at a higher level, so I can get it if its 10m+ for them. But Afobe - hes on a similar level to Nakki Wells with a good year in his locker and several mediocre ones. He cost Burnely 5m. Waghorn similar. He cost Derby 5m. So why was Afobe not 5m? Answer: Cartwright. Again. 12m should have got us Austin, Gayle, Gray.... Did Cartwright work for Wolves too When they payed over 10 mil for him? Transfer fee negotiations are 100% down to Scholes All the credit and blame for those go to him, no one else. Obviously the manager, the chief scout, Cartwright will identify players - and don't forget lots of players are in the first instance touted to clubs by their agents or by the selling clubs - with some idea of what the fee potentially will be but once it gets down to it it's all down to Tony.
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Post by questionable on May 11, 2019 10:47:06 GMT
Cartwright past with Leek Town had zero influence in him getting the job. He was appointed because if his work with Beswicks e.t.c. However that aside the fact is the role Cartwright has is not as important as it should be. Scholes has far too much say over footballing decisions. If we want a proper Director of Football (& I think we do) then that means that role is far more involved than Cartwright's and would mean Scholes role is diminished. Once such a role exists then we might attract a high calibre candidate. In the meantime stop focussing on Cartwright and keep the pressure on Scholes. Yes, true re: Cartwright - the fact he is anywhere near the club's decision makers is beyond dreadful, but Scholes .... yes you are very right to highlight him. Well obviously TS is sitting back and and reaping his rewards without any accountability whatsoever, great job if you can find it. Oh well enjoy the new pad
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Post by magwitch on May 11, 2019 10:55:18 GMT
News to me that he was bought in January. I always thought Rowett bought him last summer. Yes and no. Technically we bought him in January. Yes it was a technical loan move to circumvent the rules, I agree. Typical Scholes if you ask me.
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 11, 2019 11:02:46 GMT
Did Cartwright work for Wolves too When they payed over 10 mil for him? Transfer fee negotiations are 100% down to Scholes All the credit and blame for those go to him, no one else. Obviously the manager, the chief scout, Cartwright will identify players - and don't forget lots of players are in the first instance touted to clubs by their agents or by the selling clubs - with some idea of what the fee potentially will be but once it gets down to it it's all down to Tony. I know, I was more pointing out the nonsense in blaming Cartwright, I'm pretty sure there's a few that don't really understand he's pretty much a glorified pen pusher with a little say on the players. As you say Scholes is the money man, obviously the manager would probably have a say regards to if a player is worth whats being asked for them, but then I don't have a major problem with Scholes, if the manager wants a player and thinks he'll do a good job for the team and its within budget is it really Scholes fault if that player fails and the price looks high, I don't think it is, if Afobe did well and got 15-20 goals last season then it would have been money well spent.
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Post by gingerninja on May 11, 2019 11:15:45 GMT
We on the whole always pay over the odds for players. Afobe & Vokes are just 2 in a long line.
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Post by crapslinger on May 11, 2019 11:24:13 GMT
We on the whole always pay over the odds for players. Afobe & Vokes are just 2 in a long line. Yet we manage on the whole to undersell our assets, we are pretty shit at this transfer business but Laurel and Hardy manage to escape any responsibility.
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Post by FrankButcher on May 11, 2019 12:07:42 GMT
The top of our club are, by and large, amateurs - epitomised by Cartwright. Whereas we appoint someone from Leek Town (aka the English Division 9), this is the kind of experience that Norwich sought in their DOF - www.itv.com/news/anglia/2017-04-06/stuart-webber-who-is-norwich-citys-new-sporting-director/i.e. recent promotion experience with a team in which he had a big roll; experience of Liverpool as Director of Recruitment Leeds have Victor Orta Orta's - director of football when Sevilla won the UEFA Cup in 2006 + roles as technical director at Zenit St Petersburg and Elche, and he played a role in Boro's promotion season in 2016 Jesus Garcia Pitarch at Villa had been DOF at Valencia, then moved on to Atletico Madrid and Real Zaragoza. Our experience came from Leek! Yep, f***** Leek. We have a low grade hobbyist - making and/or allowing the club to make decisions that I'd say 4 in 5 "amateur" fans would have never dreamt of, so bad they were, so lacking in basic sense. I fear we simply can't progress with the nepotism at the club that allows this sort of thing - we often look a the players on the pitch as out clue to the health of club, whereas alot is explained about our demise if we look at those who are supposedly running it. Cartwright past with Leek Town had zero influence in him getting the job. He was appointed because if his work with Beswicks e.t.c. However that aside the fact is the role Cartwright has is not as important as it should be. Scholes has far too much say over footballing decisions. If we want a proper Director of Football (& I think we do) then that means that role is far more involved than Cartwright's and would mean Scholes role is diminished. Once such a role exists then we might attract a high calibre candidate. In the meantime stop focussing on Cartwright and keep the pressure on Scholes. They both need to go. Simple as in my opinion, we need a fresh approach and new ideas. I agree with tony that we wont progress with either cartwright or scholes at the club.
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Post by ravey123 on May 11, 2019 12:50:29 GMT
Cartwright past with Leek Town had zero influence in him getting the job. He was appointed because if his work with Beswicks e.t.c. However that aside the fact is the role Cartwright has is not as important as it should be. Scholes has far too much say over footballing decisions. If we want a proper Director of Football (& I think we do) then that means that role is far more involved than Cartwright's and would mean Scholes role is diminished. Once such a role exists then we might attract a high calibre candidate. In the meantime stop focussing on Cartwright and keep the pressure on Scholes. They both need to go. Simple as in my opinion, we need a fresh approach and new ideas. I agree with tony that we wont progress with either cartwright or scholes at the club. Were not the only ones to waste money on strikers - Villa did very similar when they signed Kodjia - may even be a worse signing than Afobe
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Post by berahinosgoals on May 11, 2019 12:52:53 GMT
Anyone reckon I'll have much chance of getting Afobe's number on the back of my shirt or might it be out of stock?
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 13:00:44 GMT
Cartwright past with Leek Town had zero influence in him getting the job. He was appointed because if his work with Beswicks e.t.c. However that aside the fact is the role Cartwright has is not as important as it should be. Scholes has far too much say over footballing decisions. If we want a proper Director of Football (& I think we do) then that means that role is far more involved than Cartwright's and would mean Scholes role is diminished. Once such a role exists then we might attract a high calibre candidate. In the meantime stop focussing on Cartwright and keep the pressure on Scholes. They both need to go. Simple as in my opinion, we need a fresh approach and new ideas. I agree with tony that we wont progress with either cartwright or scholes at the club. Then you are effectively saying the board should go! Scholes is a board member and the board does not have a habit of sacking each other...
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 13:05:03 GMT
They both need to go. Simple as in my opinion, we need a fresh approach and new ideas. I agree with tony that we wont progress with either cartwright or scholes at the club. Were not the only ones to waste money on strikers - Villa did very similar when they signed Kodjia - may even be a worse signing than Afobe But nothing can compare to Berahino surely!
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 11, 2019 13:08:14 GMT
We on the whole always pay over the odds for players. Afobe & Vokes are just 2 in a long line. Yet we manage on the whole to undersell our assets, we are pretty shit at this transfer business but Laurel and Hardy manage to escape any responsibility. Who have we under sold? Arnie maybe there's an argument there, N'Zonzi, not really, he was coming to the end of his contract and there wasn't a queue waiting for him we were very much at Sevilla's mercy on that one and with Shaq we had no other choice, either sign him with the clause or don't sign him at all.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 13:27:20 GMT
Anyone reckon I'll have much chance of getting Afobe's number on the back of my shirt or might it be out of stock? Just don't rename yourself as Afobesgoals...the poor man will never score another goal for us if you do!
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on May 11, 2019 13:31:52 GMT
Yet we manage on the whole to undersell our assets, we are pretty shit at this transfer business but Laurel and Hardy manage to escape any responsibility. Who have we under sold? Arnie maybe there's an argument there, N'Zonzi, not really, he was coming to the end of his contract and there wasn't a queue waiting for him we were very much at Sevilla's mercy on that one and with Shaq we had no other choice, either sign him with the clause or don't sign him at all. We got £43m at best for Arnie , Nzonzi, ( World Cup winner ) Shaq our contractb management and realisation of those assets is as big an indictment of our commercial thinking and execution as paying £55m for Imbula , Wimmer and Berahino .
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 11, 2019 13:35:51 GMT
Who have we under sold? Arnie maybe there's an argument there, N'Zonzi, not really, he was coming to the end of his contract and there wasn't a queue waiting for him we were very much at Sevilla's mercy on that one and with Shaq we had no other choice, either sign him with the clause or don't sign him at all. We got £43m at best for Arnie , Nzonzi, ( World Cup winner ) Shaq our contractb management and realisation of those assets is as big an indictment of our commercial thinking and execution as paying £55m for Imbula , Wimmer and Berahino . So you would have rather not signed Shaq and let N'Zonzi go on a free? And we already knew Hughes fucked up on the players he signed or do you also think someone above the manager should be meddling with the players that get signed.?
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 13:40:51 GMT
We got £43m at best for Arnie , Nzonzi, ( World Cup winner ) Shaq our contractb management and realisation of those assets is as big an indictment of our commercial thinking and execution as paying £55m for Imbula , Wimmer and Berahino . So you would have rather not signed Shaq and let N'Zonzi go on a free? And we already knew Hughes fucked up on the players he signed or do you also think someone above the manager should be meddling with the players that get signed.? Other clubs have proper technical directors, directors of football and recruitment teams to prevent such fuck ups though don’t they?
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on May 11, 2019 13:43:14 GMT
We got £43m at best for Arnie , Nzonzi, ( World Cup winner ) Shaq our contractb management and realisation of those assets is as big an indictment of our commercial thinking and execution as paying £55m for Imbula , Wimmer and Berahino . So you would have rather not signed Shaq and let N'Zonzi go on a free? And we already knew Hughes fucked up on the players he signed or do you also think someone above the manager should be meddling with the players that get signed.? Don’t be daft we all know that we failed the renew the shaq and nzonzi contracts at the optimum time trying to be cute , to sell Arnie to a relegation rival who then kept them up was even worse . our commercial execution is utterly indefensible on Any level , from any aspect , net £190m spend to lose £100m annnual revenue deplorable , indefensible and diabolical management by any measure .
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 14:34:35 GMT
Who have we under sold? Arnie maybe there's an argument there, N'Zonzi, not really, he was coming to the end of his contract and there wasn't a queue waiting for him we were very much at Sevilla's mercy on that one and with Shaq we had no other choice, either sign him with the clause or don't sign him at all. We got £43m at best for Arnie , Nzonzi, ( World Cup winner ) Shaq our contractb management and realisation of those assets is as big an indictment of our commercial thinking and execution as paying £55m for Imbula , Wimmer and Berahino . You can't blame any Stokie for not knowing in 2015 that 3 years later Nzonzi would become a 35 minute world cup winner...
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Post by crapslinger on May 11, 2019 15:15:37 GMT
Yet we manage on the whole to undersell our assets, we are pretty shit at this transfer business but Laurel and Hardy manage to escape any responsibility. Who have we under sold? Arnie maybe there's an argument there, N'Zonzi, not really, he was coming to the end of his contract and there wasn't a queue waiting for him we were very much at Sevilla's mercy on that one and with Shaq we had no other choice, either sign him with the clause or don't sign him at all. Robert Huth, Glen Whelan, Begovic , Arnie, Zonz (still has twelve months of his contract to run), Shaq fucking joke clause allowed to be inserted in his contract by the club.
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 11, 2019 15:16:12 GMT
So you would have rather not signed Shaq and let N'Zonzi go on a free? And we already knew Hughes fucked up on the players he signed or do you also think someone above the manager should be meddling with the players that get signed.? Don’t be daft we all know that we failed the renew the shaq and nzonzi contracts at the optimum time trying to be cute , to sell Arnie to a relegation rival who then kept them up was even worse . our commercial execution is utterly indefensible on Any level , from any aspect , net £190m spend to lose £100m annnual revenue deplorable , indefensible and diabolical management by any measure . So N'Zonzi didn't want to leave nearly every season he was here, was that just made up every summer, no he didn't want to sign one, Arnie likewise didn't want to be here, we got fucked over by himself and his agent it was a difficult situation to be in and we got pretty much what he was worth imo, like I say there's an argument there that it wasn't enough but to me it was fine. Shaq, I have no idea on, if he wanted to sign a new contract or not, do you think Arnie leaving would have led him to signing a new one?
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Post by crapslinger on May 11, 2019 15:19:00 GMT
We got £43m at best for Arnie , Nzonzi, ( World Cup winner ) Shaq our contractb management and realisation of those assets is as big an indictment of our commercial thinking and execution as paying £55m for Imbula , Wimmer and Berahino . So you would have rather not signed Shaq and let N'Zonzi go on a free? And we already knew Hughes fucked up on the players he signed or do you also think someone above the manager should be meddling with the players that get signed.? Who fucked up signing players when we had no manager in place ?
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 11, 2019 15:20:02 GMT
Who have we under sold? Arnie maybe there's an argument there, N'Zonzi, not really, he was coming to the end of his contract and there wasn't a queue waiting for him we were very much at Sevilla's mercy on that one and with Shaq we had no other choice, either sign him with the clause or don't sign him at all. Robert Huth, Glen Whelan, Begovic , Arnie, Zonz (still has twelve months of his contract to run), Shaq fucking joke clause allowed to be inserted in his contract by the club. If that clause wasn't in his contract it was very likely he wouldn't have signed, and you're clutching at straws if you think we under sold Whelan, the problem wasn't the fee or that he left it was the lack of replacement, as you say N'Zonzi was in his last year of contract so sell him or get nothing for him when he leaves, we didn't have a leg to stand on. Interesting that you mention Bego, what did you think he was worth at the time and what was his contract situation?
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