|
Post by crapslinger on Mar 14, 2019 16:45:30 GMT
Not much balance there in that report MH..
Seems a little one sided
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Mar 14, 2019 18:13:35 GMT
Soldiers are human. In 99% of cases they do the right thing and believe me the 1% get investigated and if need be prosecuted I have no issues ordinarily with this Bloody Sunday prosecution. It’s up to the legal system to find him guilty or innocent. However the fact as said earlier that this has not been applied to hundreds of terrorists means successive governments are letting soldiers down The Bloody Sunday inquiry found: - the killings were unjustified - none of the 14 dead (7 of whom were children) had guns - no warnings were given - no soldiers were under threat - the troops were the first to open fire Whether 1% or not this prosecution is justified. And as I said it should apply to both sides. I also fully agree that the government lets soldiers down 1) by sending them to fight in their (illegal) wars in the first place and 2) by doing absolutely fuck all to support them when they come back. The prosecution is justified under normal times let the trial decide its fate. However due to the one sidedness of the historical crimes of NI unit it is not justified to target soldiers whilst allowing terrorists early release or giving them pretty much exemption letters The GFA should work for everyone.
|
|
|
Post by woodstein on Mar 14, 2019 19:42:50 GMT
Try to think of the terrible stress of being a target of cowardly snipers or bombers every second when being out in N.I. Soldiers panic too and react, not always correctly. Are we going to haul up examples of British soldiers that may have killed possibly innocent folk in World war 2 now? Time to say enough now. It seems better now (though I don't live there) so why carry this witch hunt on? The crazy thing is the 2 sides in N.I. are no different in culture other than the way they have been brainwashed. My view is I hate cowards to go out with the aim of killing innocent folk for their belief. If you are an "army" then fight like one.
|
|
|
Post by telfordstoke on Mar 14, 2019 20:29:19 GMT
It’s a huge dilemma this one. Agree re: historical wrongs being righted if evidence is there, but to see this when the self declared bomb maker from the Birmingham pub bombings isn’t touched when he makes a press statement on his involvement a couple of years back, this seems the flip side of an entirely different coin
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Mar 14, 2019 20:33:25 GMT
The witch hunt was to appease the republicans over the gfa
On a separate note my father in law served in NI in the mid 70s. A couple of years ago (in his late 60s btw) the historical ni crimes unit contacted him saying he was in a certain place at a certain time when some incident happened and he should make a statement etc. He told them he couldn’t remember and they left him alone. (It was nothing to do with him btw)
Let these old guys go. What the fuck is to gain from prosecution them now.
The “republicans” want closure over some of these incidents. People from the same communities however are reluctant to provide closure to the families of the innocents they were maiming and killing at the same time.
Sometimes you have to forget the past in order to build a future.
|
|
|
Post by kelw on Mar 14, 2019 23:44:25 GMT
Does this mean we are going to start going after the IRA for multiple atrocities for which nobody has been held to account, or are they still untouchable ? I take it you never heard of the Maze prison. You also failed to mention those wrongly imprisoned for years
|
|
|
Post by kelw on Mar 14, 2019 23:52:11 GMT
Try to think of the terrible stress of being a target of cowardly snipers or bombers every second when being out in N.I. Soldiers panic too and react, not always correctly. Are we going to haul up examples of British soldiers that may have killed possibly innocent folk in World war 2 now? Time to say enough now. It seems better now (though I don't live there) so why carry this witch hunt on? The crazy thing is the 2 sides in N.I. are no different in culture other than the way they have been brainwashed. My view is I hate cowards to go out with the aim of killing innocent folk for their belief. If you are an "army" then fight like one. You fail to realise that this was their country until British rule. As for bombs and snipers every second when simply is nonsense as someone who grew up in the so called troubles. The British army were an occupying force as they were in so many countries where they killer tens upon thousands of innocent people.You should learn your history before labelling others. It's not a witch hunt- it's war crimes they are guilty of despite your blinkered , one sided view same as IRA murderers were found guilty. It works both ways. The British killed 1% of the Sri Lankan population for example , imagine that? Those cowardly Sri Lankans who got what they deserved in their own country. Ironic thing is you talk about people being brainwashed !!!!
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 15, 2019 1:41:13 GMT
Not much balance there in that report MH..
Would you provide the link, to balance against it, I'd genuinely be very interested to read it. Thanks
|
|
|
Post by mattyd on Mar 15, 2019 5:41:21 GMT
Lets imagine this was not a military case, but on a factory. If a factory worker was prosecuted for something that happened whilst doing his job over 40 years ago...The factory would walk out on strike.
I bet every soldier sailor and airman up and down the country is furious how one of their own is being treated, they should now go after all the IRA scum that are walking free after they were given an amnesty under the good Friday agreement. FFS this is a bloody disgrace.
|
|
|
Post by felonious on Mar 15, 2019 6:37:41 GMT
Not much balance there in that report MH..
Would you provide the link, to balance against it, I'd genuinely be very interested to read it. Thanks There's no facts as to why the soldiers were in NI in the first place to start with. No attempt to give the background of that day's mission, the information given to them on the day about threats, the age of the soldiers, whether they knew the first shot was one of theirs. I'm not defending what happened on that day but imagine going into a scenario when you could be shot at or perhaps just nail bombed or if you're lucky petrol bombed or if you're really lucky just a few bricks and stones. Who knows what had happened to these presumably mainly young men up to that point.
Do you think they should have received letters of comfort?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 7:03:57 GMT
This soldier is being made the sacrificial lamb, scapegoat, call him what you will, to satisfy those Republican families calling for "justice".
At that time there were bombings and shootings almost every day against the soldiers, police, and Northern Irish citizens. It was effectively a war zone. How can the "powers that be" that have exempted the terrorists from any prosecution now decide to charge one of it's own soldiers for carrying out his duty ?
Atrocious decision ! Yet no doubt there will possibly be more violence now that "only one" soldier has been charged !
Well I for one hope he's completely exonerated but I fear he'll be found guilty to satisfy the families.
|
|
|
Post by lawrieleslie on Mar 15, 2019 7:41:11 GMT
Does this mean we are going to start going after the IRA for multiple atrocities for which nobody has been held to account, or are they still untouchable ? Blair is a cunt Fence sitting again Northy 🤪🤪
|
|
|
Post by Dingdangdoo on Mar 15, 2019 7:53:42 GMT
No winners in this at all
Ah, sorry, politicians empire building might be one
The ‘people’ from either side will gain very little overall. They are but pawns in the political chessboard
|
|
|
Post by redstriper on Mar 15, 2019 7:55:04 GMT
Does this mean we are going to start going after the IRA for multiple atrocities for which nobody has been held to account, or are they still untouchable ? I take it you never heard of the Maze prison. You also failed to mention those wrongly imprisoned for years you are being deliberately obtuse, this is about the current situation. The fact is there is an amnesty in place for the IRA, if that is going to continue should be the same for both sides ? my view is there should be no amnesty on either side, those guilty of killing innocents should always be held to account, whoever they are.
|
|
|
Post by woodstein on Mar 15, 2019 8:13:49 GMT
Try to think of the terrible stress of being a target of cowardly snipers or bombers every second when being out in N.I. Soldiers panic too and react, not always correctly. Are we going to haul up examples of British soldiers that may have killed possibly innocent folk in World war 2 now? Time to say enough now. It seems better now (though I don't live there) so why carry this witch hunt on? The crazy thing is the 2 sides in N.I. are no different in culture other than the way they have been brainwashed. My view is I hate cowards to go out with the aim of killing innocent folk for their belief. If you are an "army" then fight like one. You fail to realise that this was their country until British rule. As for bombs and snipers every second when simply is nonsense as someone who grew up in the so called troubles. The British army were an occupying force as they were in so many countries where they killer tens upon thousands of innocent people.You should learn your history before labelling others. It's not a witch hunt- it's war crimes they are guilty of despite your blinkered , one sided view same as IRA murderers were found guilty. It works both ways. The British killed 1% of the Sri Lankan population for example , imagine that? Those cowardly Sri Lankans who got what they deserved in their own country. Ironic thing is you talk about people being brainwashed !!!! Do you live in this awful bully boy British country? Should get out of this terrible place then, if you do and its that bad. I don't think we should get involved in many indirect conflicts but in N.I. whatever the rights or wrongs of the history it needed presence to prevent all out civil war where even more innocents would have been killed.
|
|
|
Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 15, 2019 8:35:05 GMT
Let's not forget that Soldiers who were killed during The Troubles by Republicans also have families that were devastated.
We don't hear much about these families do we?
|
|
|
Post by metalhead on Mar 15, 2019 9:38:59 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Davef on Mar 15, 2019 10:00:17 GMT
This soldier is being made the sacrificial lamb, scapegoat, call him what you will, to satisfy those Republican families calling for "justice". At that time there were bombings and shootings almost every day against the soldiers, police, and Northern Irish citizens. It was effectively a war zone. How can the "powers that be" that have exempted the terrorists from any prosecution now decide to charge one of it's own soldiers for carrying out his duty ? Atrocious decision ! Yet no doubt there will possibly be more violence now that "only one" soldier has been charged ! Well I for one hope he's completely exonerated but I fear he'll be found guilty to satisfy the families. Do you really consider an armed soldier shooting an unarmed civilian in the head who was tending to an injured person while waving a white flag "carrying out his duty"?
|
|
|
Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 15, 2019 10:23:43 GMT
This soldier is being made the sacrificial lamb, scapegoat, call him what you will, to satisfy those Republican families calling for "justice". At that time there were bombings and shootings almost every day against the soldiers, police, and Northern Irish citizens. It was effectively a war zone. How can the "powers that be" that have exempted the terrorists from any prosecution now decide to charge one of it's own soldiers for carrying out his duty ? Atrocious decision ! Yet no doubt there will possibly be more violence now that "only one" soldier has been charged ! Well I for one hope he's completely exonerated but I fear he'll be found guilty to satisfy the families. Do you really consider an armed soldier shooting an unarmed civilian in the head who was tending to an injured person while waving a white flag "carrying out his duty"? Very easy for you to say that but did you have sons or fathers or brothers who were persistently spat at, bricked and petrol bombed on a daily basis? Of course two wrongs don't make a right but for God's sake man, put the shootings in context.
|
|
|
Post by Davef on Mar 15, 2019 10:31:06 GMT
Do you really consider an armed soldier shooting an unarmed civilian in the head who was tending to an injured person while waving a white flag "carrying out his duty"? Very easy for you to say that but did you have sons or fathers or brothers who were persistently spat at, bricked and petrol bombed on a daily basis? Of course two wrongs don't make a right but for God's sake man, put the shootings in context. Well let's just ignore the Saville Inquiry or the fact that the Prime Minister of the UK actually apologised in the House of Commons to the families of the murdered civilians then shall we?
|
|
|
Post by felonious on Mar 15, 2019 11:31:03 GMT
I'll have a read later but it's not a subject to be happy over. I agree that the basic facts make for stark reading but at least that journalist should have made some effort to portray the backdrop to soldiers being put in that position on that day.
I have spoken to a fair few of the armed forces over the years and it's got to be the most difficult job out there. I'm old enough to remember the veterans from WW2 some of which led shattered lives and others who wouldn't talk about there experiences. Look at the current homeless and suicide figures to see the difficulty this job brings to life.
|
|
|
Post by lawrieleslie on Mar 15, 2019 11:32:57 GMT
Copied from an online soldiers blog..... Those with a long enough memory will recall that the civil rights marches of the late 1960s were a demand by the Catholic community for equality. They were denied housing, jobs and representation. They were supported by a substantial proportion of the Protestant population. Sadly protestant bigots attacked these marches. The police who were almost 100% Unionist stood idly by and watched until law and order broke down. The Police called in the B Specials a group of uniformed part time thugs who made matters worse. Law and order broke down completely and the law lost all legitimacy. The Catholics barricaded themselves into safe areas in Belfast and Londonderry to protect themselves. In 1969 Harold Wilson sent the Army in to restore peace and to protect the Catholics. The Army was not prepared to deal with civil unrest in the UK. All their training was for the defence of Europe in conventional war. Soldiers in the 60's were trained to kill the enemy. The standard crowd control training that had been used in Cyprus and Palestine had been 'Reading the Riot Act'. The act was read, a line was drawn and anyone stepping over the line was shot. This of course had to change and it took several years to do so. In the meantime Edward Heath became Prime Minister and led the Conservative and Unionist Party. Unionist being the key word. He sent the troops into the Catholic areas and introduced internment (imprisonment without trial). The Catholics turned against the Army and moderates deprived of a voice resorted to violence and joined the fledgling Provisional IRA. The intimidation of the moderate Catholic communities in Ulster left many young men knee capped, men and women murdered in their homes and young girls tarred, feathered and tied naked to lamp posts. - That was just their own people! The bombing campaign of the Provisional IRA was indiscriminate, it killed as many women and children as it did adult men. The PIRA were and still are criminal gangsters and murderers who use politics as an excuse for organised crime. Today it is the intention of Sinn Fein/IRA to obtain the conviction of at least one British Soldier from the 1970's. In so doing they will feel that the single conviction will justify the fifty thousand casualties that they inflicted on the people of Ulster during Operation Banner. The soldiers weren't to blame for 'the troubles' - the bigoted peoples of Northern Ireland were. The soldiers weren't to blame for the deaths in Northern Ireland, the terrorists on both sides were. The soldiers tried to keep two communities from destroying one another and ended up being everyone's scapegoat.
|
|
|
Post by franklin66 on Mar 15, 2019 11:59:51 GMT
How far do we go back? Different world back then do we prosecute WW2 vets? Sometimes you have to admit bad things happen draw a line and move on. History is full of injustice and tragedy let's prosecute them all.
|
|
|
Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Mar 15, 2019 12:14:28 GMT
How far do we go back? Different world back then do we prosecute WW2 vets? Sometimes you have to admit bad things happen draw a line and move on. History is full of injustice and tragedy let's prosecute them all. German veterans culpable for crimes in the Holocaust are still extradited and charged to this day. If you have a chance to resolve the injustice, I don’t get why you wouldn’t?
|
|
|
Post by franklin66 on Mar 15, 2019 12:28:31 GMT
How far do we go back? Different world back then do we prosecute WW2 vets? Sometimes you have to admit bad things happen draw a line and move on. History is full of injustice and tragedy let's prosecute them all. German veterans culpable for crimes in the Holocaust are still extradited and charged to this day. If you have a chance to resolve the injustice, I don’t get why you wouldn’t? Slightly different context.
|
|
|
Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Mar 15, 2019 12:49:29 GMT
German veterans culpable for crimes in the Holocaust are still extradited and charged to this day. If you have a chance to resolve the injustice, I don’t get why you wouldn’t? Slightly different context. So in what context is it acceptable to draw a line under the shooting of unarmed civilians then?
|
|
|
Post by franklin66 on Mar 15, 2019 13:46:26 GMT
Slightly different context. So in what context is it acceptable to draw a line under the shooting of unarmed civilians then? Your right we should go back to year 1 and prosecute those who crusified the son of god.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 13:53:48 GMT
So in what context is it acceptable to draw a line under the shooting of unarmed civilians then? Your right we should go back to year 1 and prosecute those who crusified the son of god. They're probably dead though.....
|
|
|
Post by franklin66 on Mar 15, 2019 14:01:28 GMT
Your right we should go back to year 1 and prosecute those who crusified the son of god. They're probably dead though..... Too far back how about Churchill and Eisenhower? How about the Paras and Welsh Guards in the Falklands of those who sank the Belgrano or Stormin Norman?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 14:14:34 GMT
They're probably dead though..... Too far back how about Churchill and Eisenhower? How about the Paras and Welsh Guards in the Falklands or Stormin Norman? Pretty simple as far as I'm concerned. If there is evidence that a person has broken the laws as documented in the Geneva Convention then they should be prosecuted and tried for those crimes. Absolutely no one should be above the law, soldiers included......
|
|