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Post by spitthedog on Apr 25, 2019 14:26:42 GMT
I totally disagree. Anyone who has played football values the worth of the water carriers in the team. It allows the Grealish’s of this world to bugger off and do their stuff with no responsibility. Joe Allen is that water carrier. His problem is we don’t have a flair player good enough to capitalise on his industry. Since Jones came Jack Butland has been in exceptional form and made some blinding saves which have earned us numerous points. Ok he’s not perfect and has made a few mistakes but compared to Pickford and even de Gea currently he’s rock solid. I agree that you need water carriers but my point is that they very rarely get in a team of the season so one explanation as to why he isn't in the pfa team of the season. There are several of his type of player whereas Grealish and Hernandez are rare and the flair players you and I agree Stoke lack. As for Butland I don't think as yet he is an all round gk and again as we are talking about a team of the season hasn't been consistent enough. Usually the gk in these teams comes from a side who have a good defence so no surprise that Pulis's gk gets the vote for gk of the season. Pickford is irrelevant to my point. Whatever position you care to choose, there is no way any Stoke player deserves to get anywhere near a Championship Team of the Season. With the exception of Butland after a very shaky start, they have all struggled badly and been made to look very ordinary.
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Joe Allen
Apr 25, 2019 14:53:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 25, 2019 14:53:52 GMT
I totally disagree. Anyone who has played football values the worth of the water carriers in the team. It allows the Grealish’s of this world to bugger off and do their stuff with no responsibility. Joe Allen is that water carrier. His problem is we don’t have a flair player good enough to capitalise on his industry. Since Jones came Jack Butland has been in exceptional form and made some blinding saves which have earned us numerous points. Ok he’s not perfect and has made a few mistakes but compared to Pickford and even de Gea currently he’s rock solid. I agree that you need water carriers but my point is that they very rarely get in a team of the season so one explanation as to why he isn't in the pfa team of the season. There are several of his type of player whereas Grealish and Hernandez are rare and the flair players you and I agree Stoke lack. As for Butland I don't think as yet he is an all round gk and again as we are talking about a team of the season hasn't been consistent enough. Usually the gk in these teams comes from a side who have a good defence so no surprise that Pulis's gk gets the vote for gk of the season. Pickford is irrelevant to my point. The point I was making about Allen was that he is just the kind of player other pros would vote for. The ordinary punter like you and me don’t necessarily appreciate what he does for the other players but they do. And that’s why I am surprised he isn’t in there. As I said it’s probably more to do with our lack of any flair players which means Joes contribution goes completely unnoticed. If we were higher up the league Jack and Joe would have been straight in. Are you really saying Darren Randolph is a better keeper than Jack?
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Post by nottsover60 on Apr 25, 2019 16:06:32 GMT
No but I'm saying that Middlesborough's defence is better than ours so players have found it more difficult to score against him. When teams were scoring two and three goals against us they are not going to think Butland's difficult to score against especially when he was making a mistake.
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Post by spitthedog on Apr 25, 2019 16:42:50 GMT
I agree that you need water carriers but my point is that they very rarely get in a team of the season so one explanation as to why he isn't in the pfa team of the season. There are several of his type of player whereas Grealish and Hernandez are rare and the flair players you and I agree Stoke lack. As for Butland I don't think as yet he is an all round gk and again as we are talking about a team of the season hasn't been consistent enough. Usually the gk in these teams comes from a side who have a good defence so no surprise that Pulis's gk gets the vote for gk of the season. Pickford is irrelevant to my point. The point I was making about Allen was that he is just the kind of player other pros would vote for. The ordinary punter like you and me don’t necessarily appreciate what he does for the other players but they do. And that’s why I am surprised he isn’t in there. As I said it’s probably more to do with our lack of any flair players which means Joes contribution goes completely unnoticed. If we were higher up the league Jack and Joe would have been straight in. Are you really saying Darren Randolph is a better keeper than Jack? I don't think its whether he's a better keeper, its a case of him performing better over the whole season. A goalkeeper is part of a defence, it's not that a goalkeeper is simply protected by a defence. A good goalkeeper helps to organise a defence and helps to keep himself protected. Jack seems to be just getting his confidence back in the last 2/3 months. Allen has been nowhere near good enough this season to get into this side. Our midfield has been overrun in the majority of games, have been poor defensively and have lacked creativity.
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Post by shaunyboyrb5 on Apr 25, 2019 17:22:08 GMT
Most reliable player for the past 2 years in a declining team
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Joe Allen
Apr 25, 2019 17:38:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 25, 2019 17:38:16 GMT
No but I'm saying that Middlesborough's defence is better than ours so players have found it more difficult to score against him. When teams were scoring two and three goals against us they are not going to think Butland's difficult to score against especially when he was making a mistake. I accept footballers are stereotypically dim but surely even they can see the difference between a goalkeeper having little to do behind a very mean defence and therefore letting few goals in and a quality goalkeeper behind a poor defence making world class saves but also a few mistakes. When the vote was taken also impacts on the outcome. If it was taken in early January then you could accept Jack hadn’t been great but that ignores the whole second half of the season when he’s been brilliant. It should be called PFA team of the half season.
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 25, 2019 19:05:19 GMT
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Post by spitthedog on Apr 25, 2019 21:13:36 GMT
No but I'm saying that Middlesborough's defence is better than ours so players have found it more difficult to score against him. When teams were scoring two and three goals against us they are not going to think Butland's difficult to score against especially when he was making a mistake. I accept footballers are stereotypically dim but surely even they can see the difference between a goalkeeper having little to do behind a very mean defence and therefore letting few goals in and a quality goalkeeper behind a poor defence making world class saves but also a few mistakes. When the vote was taken also impacts on the outcome. If it was taken in early January then you could accept Jack hadn’t been great but that ignores the whole second half of the season when he’s been brilliant. It should be called PFA team of the half season. The votes are taken in March I think Have you been watching Randolph every week though? I really don't agree with your assessment of the role of goalkeepers. They are part of a defence not separate from it. A goalkeeper organises a defence and therefore its not a case of a goalkeeper being protected by a defence without their input? They actively contribute to a successful defence in all sorts of ways. They are not passive. One of Jack's weaknesses has been his hesitancy around his defence and poor communication. It comes to something though when a defence with Ryan Shotton is considered better than ours!!!
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Joe Allen
Apr 25, 2019 21:24:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 25, 2019 21:24:57 GMT
I accept footballers are stereotypically dim but surely even they can see the difference between a goalkeeper having little to do behind a very mean defence and therefore letting few goals in and a quality goalkeeper behind a poor defence making world class saves but also a few mistakes. When the vote was taken also impacts on the outcome. If it was taken in early January then you could accept Jack hadn’t been great but that ignores the whole second half of the season when he’s been brilliant. It should be called PFA team of the half season. The votes are taken in March I think Have you been watching Randolph every week though? I really don't agree with your assessment of the role of goalkeepers. They are part of a defence not separate from it. A goalkeeper organises a defence and therefore its not a case of a goalkeeper being protected by a defence without their input? They actively contribute to a successful defence in all sorts of ways. They are not passive. One of Jack's weaknesses has been his hesitancy around his defence and poor communication. It comes to something though when a defence with Ryan Shotton is considered better than ours!!! I have seen him over the years and this season I’ve seen the weekly highlights on Quest and watched him in internationals. He is absolutely,100% not, a better goalkeeper than Jack.
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Post by spitthedog on Apr 25, 2019 21:48:44 GMT
The votes are taken in March I think Have you been watching Randolph every week though? I really don't agree with your assessment of the role of goalkeepers. They are part of a defence not separate from it. A goalkeeper organises a defence and therefore its not a case of a goalkeeper being protected by a defence without their input? They actively contribute to a successful defence in all sorts of ways. They are not passive. One of Jack's weaknesses has been his hesitancy around his defence and poor communication. It comes to something though when a defence with Ryan Shotton is considered better than ours!!! I have seen him over the years and this season I’ve seen the weekly highlights on Quest and watched him in internationals. He is absolutely,100% not, a better goalkeeper than Jack. Fair enough...I'll take your word!
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Post by tony1234 on Apr 25, 2019 22:52:15 GMT
Posturing bullshit. He's trying - rightly of course - to talk up the value. 20m and Allen is definitely gone. 15m and he is most probably gone, especially if we get a useful loanee. (Same as his comments about Maclean and Afobe).
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Post by Mint Berry Barks on Apr 25, 2019 23:31:46 GMT
I don't mind Joe, but moving him on might be one of those rare cases that benefits both the player and the club he's leaving.
He's a jack of all trades, master of none sort of player. We don't need that. We need either someone who can create and score from midfield, or someone who can break up play and protect the back 4.
Fortunately, he still seems to be a very valuable (monetary) player, who's transfer fee and freed up wages should easily recruit a more than capable Championship calibre player for our promotion push next season.
Joe Allen is a great player in a very specific system, which is a system we haven't once played since he came here.
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Post by chiswickpotter on Apr 26, 2019 8:05:04 GMT
I've said before there are lot of energetic championsh midfielders like Joe. I don't know much about Norwood but Grealish and Hernandez show class and creativity that we sadly lack. Teams of the season always contain stand out players rather than team players and pfa teams being voted for by players generally contain players who have hurt the opposition. I doubt if Joe was anywhere near. As for Jack he had a terrible start to the season making mistakes in most matches, not helped by the poor defence leaving him exposed. Even now I don't think he's anything remarkable. He's a good shot stopper but as for commanding his area or closing down players has room for improvement. I said for Norwich's second Gordon Banks would have seen what was happening and closed the player down making himself big and therefore the goal smaller to at least put the forward off his shot. I totally disagree. Anyone who has played football values the worth of the water carriers in the team. It allows the Grealish’s of this world to bugger off and do their stuff with no responsibility. Joe Allen is that water carrier. His problem is we don’t have a flair player good enough to capitalise on his industry. Since Jones came Jack Butland has been in exceptional form and made some blinding saves which have earned us numerous points. Ok he’s not perfect and has made a few mistakes but compared to Pickford and even de Gea currently he’s rock solid. Is he a water carrier though? He is not a disciplined CDM, his tackling is too erratic and gives away far too many fouls. He is not tall enough to help the centre backs against teams who play long ball. So he needs to play in one of the 3 other midfield roles in the diamond but he doesnt have the apce to play in the two wider roles and lacks the guile to be number 10.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 8:10:39 GMT
Posturing bullshit. He's trying - rightly of course - to talk up the value. 20m and Allen is definitely gone. 15m and he is most probably gone, especially if we get a useful loanee. (Same as his comments about Maclean and Afobe). Pretty sure Jones has said he doesn’t like loaning players.
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Joe Allen
Apr 26, 2019 8:15:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 8:15:18 GMT
This isn't really groundbreaking stuff but every player is for sale this summer at the right price.
Joe Allen will be pushed through the door if a club offers the right money.
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Post by tony1234 on Apr 26, 2019 9:05:26 GMT
Posturing bullshit. He's trying - rightly of course - to talk up the value. 20m and Allen is definitely gone. 15m and he is most probably gone, especially if we get a useful loanee. (Same as his comments about Maclean and Afobe). Pretty sure Jones has said he doesn’t like loaning players. i Know. Rowett didn't too. Its just stubborn and foolish. Perhaps not this year as much, but previously, loan players have played a really key role in top end teams. Mitrovic got Fulham up for instance. Abraham may well prove important to help Villa get a 30m boost of going up, when they would be 10th without him. Similarly, with, Derby 10th+ without Mount and Wilson. Barnes gave WBA a boost in the first half of the season. WBA would also be outside the play offs if they had Afobe and not loanee, Gayle. This summer we will need to replace Butland, Haugard (he is still a squad member), Allen, Pieters, Williams, Fletcher, Adam, Diouf, Maclean (poss), Bauer. We'd like to replace Beharinho, Afobe. Are we going to buy 11 players with out c20 budget? Why pass up the chance to get young, athletic, ambitious players who would allow us to then concentrate our spending on, say, 5 key investments? The only answer is intransigence and a lack of self-confidence: Its up to NJ (or any manager) to integrate and manage them.
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Post by FullerMagic on May 9, 2019 19:45:37 GMT
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Post by toppercorner on May 9, 2019 19:48:49 GMT
it's a very professional (ie non-commital) answer isn't it?
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Post by StaffordPotter on May 9, 2019 19:55:24 GMT
Best thing we can do is sell him on for a tidy sum in the summer. Good worker but I don't get all the fuss about him. He seems to unbalance the midfield in my opinion, get a young attack minded lad in who can drive the ball forward to fill his boots.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 20:02:01 GMT
The only thing I take from that is that he doesn't want to be here but doesn't want to openly admit it.
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Joe Allen
May 9, 2019 20:03:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by Fred Merger on May 9, 2019 20:03:49 GMT
On his bike then!
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Post by GeneralFaye on May 9, 2019 20:09:48 GMT
Got nothing against Joe but he needs to go. We could make some really good money on him.
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Joe Allen
May 9, 2019 20:12:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by wagsastokie on May 9, 2019 20:12:57 GMT
Up to yet I have been fully behind jones But this is now a touch worrying If Joe Allen is the answer what the hell is the question
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Post by Laughing Gravy on May 9, 2019 20:13:55 GMT
The only thing I take from that is that he doesn't want to be here but doesn't want to openly admit it. Exactly if he wanted to stay he'd say so wouldn't he?
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Joe Allen
May 9, 2019 20:14:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by berahinosgoals on May 9, 2019 20:14:41 GMT
Seems pretty run of the mill and honest to me, that's probably every players stance in a team below the league they aspire to play in
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Post by toppercorner on May 9, 2019 20:18:21 GMT
he has got better under NJ
his 1st touch is 100x times what it was a few months ago
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on May 9, 2019 20:51:05 GMT
Player of the season in my opinion and I've never liked him as a footballer.
I'd cash in on him if I could.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on May 9, 2019 21:10:22 GMT
Got nothing against Joe but he needs to go. We could make some really good money on him. We could but let’s just stop and think about our record of extracting value for our best assets , more likely is we sell him for less than market value to a championship rival where he goes on to be their best player 😉 replacing him with a loan or free transfer who featured in the champions league final well he was on the 2005 finalists team bus , but has gone to suffer drug and drink problems caused by a serious injury
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Joe Allen
May 9, 2019 21:21:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by lordb on May 9, 2019 21:21:54 GMT
Got nothing against Joe but he needs to go. We could make some really good money on him. We could but let’s just stop and think about our record of extracting value for our best assets , more likely is we sell him for less than market value to a championship rival where he goes on to be their best player 😉 replacing him with a loan or free transfer who featured in the champions league final well he was on the 2005 finalists team bus , but has gone to suffer drug and drink problems caused by a serious injury Undoubtedly Allen will be very keen to move back to the Premier League however can absolutely no reason why he would move to another Championship club (not least because at least 20 of them would pay him less money). He's very happy living in Eccleshall apparently so one or two (Newcastle, Bournemouth, Southampton, Norwich) can be ruled out. Leicester is the obvious move, he'd probably be happy to be a squad player there. Burnley, Sheffield United and any if the play off winners would be a good fit.
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Joe Allen
May 9, 2019 21:27:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by bolders on May 9, 2019 21:27:55 GMT
The only thing I take from that is that he doesn't want to be here but doesn't want to openly admit it. More I think I’d like to be back in the Prem but I ain’t going kick up a fuss and lower my value cause Stoke have been good to me
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