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Post by wizzardofdribble on Feb 7, 2019 17:02:34 GMT
All about Stoke on Trent and the Pottery Industry
7-8 BBC2.
Very interesting programme.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 17:04:34 GMT
This same programme was on a few weeks ago wasn't it ?
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Post by elystokie on Feb 7, 2019 17:46:58 GMT
This same programme was on a few weeks ago wasn't it ? Yes it was, I remember watching it, I'll probably watch it again tho
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Feb 7, 2019 22:02:37 GMT
Quite sad to see a prosperous City that was the capital of the worlds pottery & tile industries become what it is today.
Supermarkets and car parks.
😞
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Post by cerebralstokie on Feb 7, 2019 23:20:54 GMT
Michael Portillo will be ending his Great British Railway Journey in Stoke on Trent tomorrow. I suspect that the effects of Conservative Economic Policy in the 80's on the City will be ignored in favour of admiring the statue of Josiah Wedgwood outside Stoke station and an embarrassing attempt to throw a pot at the Gladstone Museum or at Middleport.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Feb 8, 2019 8:32:38 GMT
Michael Portillo will be ending his Great British Railway Journey in Stoke on Trent tomorrow. I suspect that the effects of Conservative Economic Policy in the 80's on the City will be ignored in favour of admiring the statue of Josiah Wedgwood outside Stoke station and an embarrassing attempt to throw a pot at the Gladstone Museum or at Middleport. And the irony of him breaking the pot being a metaphor for what his party did to this City in the 1980s.
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Post by yeokel on Feb 8, 2019 9:03:53 GMT
Michael Portillo will be ending his Great British Railway Journey in Stoke on Trent tomorrow. I suspect that the effects of Conservative Economic Policy in the 80's on the City will be ignored in favour of admiring the statue of Josiah Wedgwood outside Stoke station and an embarrassing attempt to throw a pot at the Gladstone Museum or at Middleport. And the irony of him breaking the pot being a metaphor for what his party did to this City in the 1980s. It is all such a long time ago that this has become a bit foggy in my mind but, other than the pit closures, what was it that his party did to this city in the 1980s?
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Post by cerebralstokie on Feb 8, 2019 9:36:37 GMT
And the irony of him breaking the pot being a metaphor for what his party did to this City in the 1980s. It is all such a long time ago that this has become a bit foggy in my mind but, other than the pit closures, what was it that his party did to this city in the 1980s? The Thatcher Government pursued a policy of a strong currency which made exports uncompetitive (including china tea sets etc.) in world markets. Changes in fashion, more casual dining, takeaway meals etc. also contributed to the decline as well. Deep mining for coal became uncompetitive also compared to much cheaper open cast coal imported from South Africa and elsewhere and so the pits closed. Shelton Bar steelworks also closed, though not without a fight and so three main sources of employment went over a 10 year period. I don't think that enough was done to reskill those who lost their jobs and to attract more modern jobs to the city. Larger cities such as Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool have benefitted from major investment. Manchester, where I now live is a vibrant city with many cultural and sporting attractions and vibrant dining and night life scene. Stoke on Trent suffers from still being a city of six smaller towns. Anyone travelling from, say Longton to Tunstall would probably conclude that the city was a dump.
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Post by yeokel on Feb 8, 2019 10:02:32 GMT
It is all such a long time ago that this has become a bit foggy in my mind but, other than the pit closures, what was it that his party did to this city in the 1980s? The Thatcher Government pursued a policy of a strong currency which made exports uncompetitive (including china tea sets etc.) in world markets. Changes in fashion, more casual dining, takeaway meals etc. also contributed to the decline as well. Deep mining for coal became uncompetitive also compared to much cheaper open cast coal imported from South Africa and elsewhere and so the pits closed. Shelton Bar steelworks also closed, though not without a fight and so three main sources of employment went over a 10 year period. I don't think that enough was done to reskill those who lost their jobs and to attract more modern jobs to the city. Larger cities such as Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool have benefitted from major investment. Manchester, where I now live is a vibrant city with many cultural and sporting attractions and vibrant dining and night life scene. Stoke on Trent suffers from still being a city of six smaller towns. Anyone travelling from, say Longton to Tunstall would probably conclude that the city was a dump. That seems to be a fair summary of how things came to be. But, although we had a strong currency at the time, we’ve had a weak one for the past couple of decades, but exports and jobs haven’t come flooding back. The reskilling of labour and the regeneration of post-industrial cities such as Stoke (but not all cities) has been lacking, but I think the local authorities are as much to blame as the government (probably more so). The likes of Liverpool and Manchester have benefitted from very strong, vocal and active local authorities who have ‘encouraged’ central government to help their areas. Stoke on Trent has not had this. Shelton suffered from the cheap imports syndrome, the same as the other steel plants. And, I agree, there is no ‘vibrant’ centre to the city which attracts outsiders to live, work or invest. But, going back to the OP, most of this is not specifically the fault of the Tory government of the ‘80s. It is the fault of the decline of GB as a strong manufacturing country and the failure of successive governments to tackle, or help tackle the problem as the world has evolved. We've got left behind.
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Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on Feb 8, 2019 10:09:16 GMT
Where was the workers cottage where the four craftspeople lived in last nights show? Anybody know?
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Post by lordb on Feb 8, 2019 10:28:44 GMT
The Thatcher Government pursued a policy of a strong currency which made exports uncompetitive (including china tea sets etc.) in world markets. Changes in fashion, more casual dining, takeaway meals etc. also contributed to the decline as well. Deep mining for coal became uncompetitive also compared to much cheaper open cast coal imported from South Africa and elsewhere and so the pits closed. Shelton Bar steelworks also closed, though not without a fight and so three main sources of employment went over a 10 year period. I don't think that enough was done to reskill those who lost their jobs and to attract more modern jobs to the city. Larger cities such as Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool have benefitted from major investment. Manchester, where I now live is a vibrant city with many cultural and sporting attractions and vibrant dining and night life scene. Stoke on Trent suffers from still being a city of six smaller towns. Anyone travelling from, say Longton to Tunstall would probably conclude that the city was a dump. That seems to be a fair summary of how things came to be. But, although we had a strong currency at the time, we’ve had a weak one for the past couple of decades, but exports and jobs haven’t come flooding back. The reskilling of labour and the regeneration of post-industrial cities such as Stoke (but not all cities) has been lacking, but I think the local authorities are as much to blame as the government (probably more so). The likes of Liverpool and Manchester have benefitted from very strong, vocal and active local authorities who have ‘encouraged’ central government to help their areas. Stoke on Trent has not had this. Shelton suffered from the cheap imports syndrome, the same as the other steel plants. And, I agree, there is no ‘vibrant’ centre to the city which attracts outsiders to live, work or invest. But, going back to the OP, most of this is not specifically the fault of the Tory government of the ‘80s. It is the fault of the decline of GB as a strong manufacturing country and the failure of successive governments to tackle, or help tackle the problem as the world has evolved. We've got left behind.
Other, larger mostly,cities (with marginal constituencies) have had investment. We got a garden festival... When Stoke south went Conservative in 2017 was hoping there might be some money chucked this way however there hasn't,as such would conclude Tories don't expect to hold the seat.
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Post by cerebralstokie on Feb 8, 2019 12:13:43 GMT
The Government has just announced a policy encouraging more cities to develop tram systems for public transport. It will be interesting to see if Stoke on Trent qualifies. The layout of the city is ideal for a tram system (as we had in the past - one of my earliest memories is of the tearing up the old tramlines in Hanley). The amount of derelict land in the city, plus the bed of the old loop line being still intact ought to make it relatively easy to accomplish. I know this idea has been visited in the past, but Manchester got lots of government money for their tram system. We ought to qualify as well in my opinion.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Feb 8, 2019 12:14:51 GMT
And the irony of him breaking the pot being a metaphor for what his party did to this City in the 1980s. It is all such a long time ago that this has become a bit foggy in my mind but, other than the pit closures, what was it that his party did to this city in the 1980s? It's a bit unfair of me to blame the Conservative Party for what happened in the 1980s.. The real problem started in 1973 when Middle Eastern Oil Producing Countries formed a cartel ..which drastically reduced the supply of oil and (ceterus paribus) sent the price of oil through the roof. This meant the price of anything containing oil or it's derivatives..went up..inflation started to accelerate and workers (not just in the UK) started demanding higher wages to keep up with the higher prices.. The so-called 'wage-price spiral' As the 1970s progressed we had more and more strikes..higher prices..higher wages..and rising unemployment. So called 'Stagflation' In 1979 Margaret Thatcher came to power and was advised by Keith Joseph and Alan Walters (Head of Economics at Liverpool University where I was in 1985-88) to abandon Keynsian Demand Management and adopt 'Monetarist Supply-Side' Economics. This meant massive hikes in interest rates and large cuts in public spending and the reduction of state aid to industry..which led to the demise of the pottery industry..which for years had suffered from under investment. In 1979 50,000 people were working in the pottery industry in Stoke on Trent (directly or indirectly) By 1990 about 9000. Although I slated the Thatcher government at the time..in retrospect it was very difficult to see what else she could do. You could argue that her policies worked because it cleared out all the 'dead wood' but you could also say that the result of those economic and political policies are still being felt today in parts of Stoke on Trent. The selling off of council houses for example Rate Capping Local Authorities. Ignoring the social consequences of those policies. Although I would add, that I don't think Labour would have done any different. And I voted Conservative in 1983 (when I was 18)
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Post by lordb on Feb 8, 2019 12:22:54 GMT
The Government has just announced a policy encouraging more cities to develop tram systems for public transport. It will be interesting to see if Stoke on Trent qualifies. The layout of the city is ideal for a tram system (as we had in the past - one of my earliest memories is of the tearing up the old tramlines in Hanley). The amount of derelict land in the city, plus the bed of the old loop line being still intact ought to make it relatively easy to accomplish. I know this idea has been visited in the past, but Manchester got lots of government money for their tram system. We ought to qualify as well in my opinion. if the Govt (of any party) think there are votes in it then Stoke-On-Trent will be on that list if not they won't otherwise you are right, from a practical point of view a tram or light railway system would really suit however it comes down to money as always.
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Post by cerebralstokie on Feb 8, 2019 12:34:19 GMT
The Government has just announced a policy encouraging more cities to develop tram systems for public transport. It will be interesting to see if Stoke on Trent qualifies. The layout of the city is ideal for a tram system (as we had in the past - one of my earliest memories is of the tearing up the old tramlines in Hanley). The amount of derelict land in the city, plus the bed of the old loop line being still intact ought to make it relatively easy to accomplish. I know this idea has been visited in the past, but Manchester got lots of government money for their tram system. We ought to qualify as well in my opinion. if the Govt (of any party) think there are votes in it then Stoke-On-Trent will be on that list if not they won't otherwise you are right, from a practical point of view a tram or light railway system would really suit however it comes down to money as always. You have just defined what the Americans call "pork barrel" politics!
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Post by Dutchpeter on Feb 8, 2019 13:03:33 GMT
It is all such a long time ago that this has become a bit foggy in my mind but, other than the pit closures, what was it that his party did to this city in the 1980s? It's a bit unfair of me to blame the Conservative Party for what happened in the 1980s.. The real problem started in 1973 when Middle Eastern Oil Producing Countries formed a cartel ..which drastically reduced the supply of oil and (ceterus paribus) sent the price of oil through the roof. This meant the price of anything containing oil or it's derivatives..went up..inflation started to accelerate and workers (not just in the UK) started demanding higher wages to keep up with the higher prices.. The so-called 'wage-price spiral' As the 1970s progressed we had more and more strikes..higher prices..higher wages..and rising unemployment. So called 'Stagflation' In 1979 Margaret Thatcher came to power and was advised by Keith Joseph and Alan Walters (Head of Economics at Liverpool University where I was in 1985-88) to abandon Keynsian Demand Management and adopt 'Monetarist Supply-Side' Economics. This meant massive hikes in interest rates and large cuts in public spending and the reduction of state aid to industry..which led to the demise of the pottery industry..which for years had suffered from under investment. In 1979 50,000 people were working in the pottery industry in Stoke on Trent (directly or indirectly) By 1990 about 9000. Although I slated the Thatcher government at the time..in retrospect it was very difficult to see what else she could do. You could argue that her policies worked because it cleared out all the 'dead wood' but you could also say that the result of those economic and political policies are still being felt today in parts of Stoke on Trent. The selling off of council houses for example Rate Capping Local Authorities. Ignoring the social consequences of those policies. Although I would add, that I don't think Labour would have done any different. And I voted Conservative in 1983 (when I was 18) James Callaghan and Denis Healy introduced a minor form of monetarism and indeed saw the end of Keynesian economics during his speech at the 1976 Labour conference. www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/liamhalligan/9484414/A-message-from-the-1970s-on-state-spending.html
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Feb 8, 2019 15:10:47 GMT
It's a bit unfair of me to blame the Conservative Party for what happened in the 1980s.. The real problem started in 1973 when Middle Eastern Oil Producing Countries formed a cartel ..which drastically reduced the supply of oil and (ceterus paribus) sent the price of oil through the roof. This meant the price of anything containing oil or it's derivatives..went up..inflation started to accelerate and workers (not just in the UK) started demanding higher wages to keep up with the higher prices.. The so-called 'wage-price spiral' As the 1970s progressed we had more and more strikes..higher prices..higher wages..and rising unemployment. So called 'Stagflation' In 1979 Margaret Thatcher came to power and was advised by Keith Joseph and Alan Walters (Head of Economics at Liverpool University where I was in 1985-88) to abandon Keynsian Demand Management and adopt 'Monetarist Supply-Side' Economics. This meant massive hikes in interest rates and large cuts in public spending and the reduction of state aid to industry..which led to the demise of the pottery industry..which for years had suffered from under investment. In 1979 50,000 people were working in the pottery industry in Stoke on Trent (directly or indirectly) By 1990 about 9000. Although I slated the Thatcher government at the time..in retrospect it was very difficult to see what else she could do. You could argue that her policies worked because it cleared out all the 'dead wood' but you could also say that the result of those economic and political policies are still being felt today in parts of Stoke on Trent. The selling off of council houses for example Rate Capping Local Authorities. Ignoring the social consequences of those policies. Although I would add, that I don't think Labour would have done any different. And I voted Conservative in 1983 (when I was 18) James Callaghan and Denis Healy introduced a minor form of monetarism and indeed saw the end of Keynesian economics during his speech at the 1976 Labour conference. www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/liamhalligan/9484414/A-message-from-the-1970s-on-state-spending.htmlYes, that's right and we saw unemployment rise to over 2 million under Labour in 1977 after Dennis Healey had to go to the IMF and accept that cuts had to be made (in order to receive IMF funding) I suppose my point is that the oil price hike was the catalyst for this rather than the trade unions or The Tories or Labour etc etc And 20 years later when Tony Blairs Labour got into office they continued with 'Thatcherism' albeit a watered down form.
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Post by sheds1862 on Feb 8, 2019 15:16:09 GMT
Where was the workers cottage where the four craftspeople lived in last nights show? Anybody know? I was also wondering that and pure guess was Barlaston or Stone way . Pure guess though sorry
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Post by Dutchpeter on Feb 8, 2019 15:32:40 GMT
Yes, that's right and we saw unemployment rise to over 2 million under Labour in 1977 after Dennis Healey had to go to the IMF and accept that cuts had to be made (in order to receive IMF funding) I suppose my point is that the oil price hike was the catalyst for this rather than the trade unions or The Tories or Labour etc etc And 20 years later when Tony Blairs Labour got into office they continued with 'Thatcherism' albeit a watered down form. Spot on with the Oil crisis comments. The Yom Kippur war and its consequences had a huge impact on this country that are still felt. Concrete and bricks (for example) use a lot of energy to produce, made house building a less common occurrence than the 50s and 60s. It’s a strangely ignored event in the recent history of this country.
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Post by cerebralstokie on Feb 8, 2019 16:05:32 GMT
Yes, that's right and we saw unemployment rise to over 2 million under Labour in 1977 after Dennis Healey had to go to the IMF and accept that cuts had to be made (in order to receive IMF funding) I suppose my point is that the oil price hike was the catalyst for this rather than the trade unions or The Tories or Labour etc etc And 20 years later when Tony Blairs Labour got into office they continued with 'Thatcherism' albeit a watered down form. Spot on with the Oil crisis comments. The Yom Kippur war and its consequences had a huge impact on this country that are still felt. Concrete and bricks (for example) use a lot of energy to produce, made house building a less common occurrence than the 50s and 60s. It’s a strangely ignored event in the recent history of this country. I agree about the oil crisis, but don't forget that we had our own oil bonanza from the late 70's and the Tory Government was a beneficiary of this when it came to power in 1979. An interesting contrast is to look at the car industry in the U.K. in the 1970's and compare it with that of Germany. U.K. car companies were producing vehicles which were of lower quality, which often rusted and were sometimes unreliable with low productivity in the factories. Unions and management were both to blame, but by common consent more so the Unions. I am not a huge fan of Maggie Thatcher, but she did take on the Unions and won, but the fact remains that Tory Economic Policy at the time (1980's) had a devastating effect on mining and manufacturing in North Staffordshire, from which we have now only partially recovered.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Feb 8, 2019 16:14:41 GMT
That seems to be a fair summary of how things came to be. But, although we had a strong currency at the time, we’ve had a weak one for the past couple of decades, but exports and jobs haven’t come flooding back. The reskilling of labour and the regeneration of post-industrial cities such as Stoke (but not all cities) has been lacking, but I think the local authorities are as much to blame as the government (probably more so). The likes of Liverpool and Manchester have benefitted from very strong, vocal and active local authorities who have ‘encouraged’ central government to help their areas. Stoke on Trent has not had this. Shelton suffered from the cheap imports syndrome, the same as the other steel plants. And, I agree, there is no ‘vibrant’ centre to the city which attracts outsiders to live, work or invest. But, going back to the OP, most of this is not specifically the fault of the Tory government of the ‘80s. It is the fault of the decline of GB as a strong manufacturing country and the failure of successive governments to tackle, or help tackle the problem as the world has evolved. We've got left behind.
Other, larger mostly,cities (with marginal constituencies) have had investment. We got a garden festival... When Stoke south went Conservative in 2017 was hoping there might be some money chucked this way however there hasn't,as such would conclude Tories don't expect to hold the seat. Didn't they clear half of Middleport/Longport to build this?
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Post by lordb on Feb 8, 2019 17:18:13 GMT
if the Govt (of any party) think there are votes in it then Stoke-On-Trent will be on that list if not they won't otherwise you are right, from a practical point of view a tram or light railway system would really suit however it comes down to money as always. You have just defined what the Americans call "pork barrel" politics! Never heard that phrase but as Homer J might say "mmmm...pork Barrel..."
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Post by lordb on Feb 8, 2019 17:18:46 GMT
Other, larger mostly,cities (with marginal constituencies) have had investment. We got a garden festival... When Stoke south went Conservative in 2017 was hoping there might be some money chucked this way however there hasn't,as such would conclude Tories don't expect to hold the seat. Didn't they clear half of Middleport/Longport to build this? No it was the old Shelton Bar site.
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Post by felonious on Feb 8, 2019 17:35:12 GMT
The Thatcher Government pursued a policy of a strong currency which made exports uncompetitive (including china tea sets etc.) in world markets. Changes in fashion, more casual dining, takeaway meals etc. also contributed to the decline as well. Deep mining for coal became uncompetitive also compared to much cheaper open cast coal imported from South Africa and elsewhere and so the pits closed. Shelton Bar steelworks also closed, though not without a fight and so three main sources of employment went over a 10 year period. I don't think that enough was done to reskill those who lost their jobs and to attract more modern jobs to the city. Larger cities such as Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool have benefitted from major investment. Manchester, where I now live is a vibrant city with many cultural and sporting attractions and vibrant dining and night life scene. Stoke on Trent suffers from still being a city of six smaller towns. Anyone travelling from, say Longton to Tunstall would probably conclude that the city was a dump. That seems to be a fair summary of how things came to be. But, although we had a strong currency at the time, we’ve had a weak one for the past couple of decades, but exports and jobs haven’t come flooding back. The reskilling of labour and the regeneration of post-industrial cities such as Stoke (but not all cities) has been lacking, but I think the local authorities are as much to blame as the government (probably more so). The likes of Liverpool and Manchester have benefitted from very strong, vocal and active local authorities who have ‘encouraged’ central government to help their areas. Stoke on Trent has not had this. Shelton suffered from the cheap imports syndrome, the same as the other steel plants. And, I agree, there is no ‘vibrant’ centre to the city which attracts outsiders to live, work or invest. But, going back to the OP, most of this is not specifically the fault of the Tory government of the ‘80s. It is the fault of the decline of GB as a strong manufacturing country and the failure of successive governments to tackle, or help tackle the problem as the world has evolved. We've got left behind.
They forget about the golden years between 1997 and 2010 when Stoke On Trent and Newcastle Under Lyme finally got their reward.
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Post by localloser on Feb 9, 2019 10:15:18 GMT
To go back to the programme, I found it very interesting. It was noticeable how many bricks were used in the building of the kilns, and I felt it was a pity that they didn't at least mention the brickmaking industry in the area (using, for example, Etruria marl) to support the pottery industry. The other point was the pollution. I''d forgotten how bad it was, and I remember being shocked when they cleaned Shelton church and it went from black to pink. It was shocking too to learn that the average lifespan of a potter was only 46 - 10 years less than the national average. On a more prosaic level I think I was about 12 before I learned that snot isn't naturally black!
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 9, 2019 10:24:13 GMT
The Tory approach to Stoke on Trent and similar areas in the 80s and 90s was that unemployment (and the associated destitution and lack of opportunity) was a price worth paying for their Monetarist dogma. Stoke lives were expendable, as simple as that.
Tory bastards.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 12:55:45 GMT
I started to watch it last night and fell asleep before they did on day one
zzzzzz
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