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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 11:58:35 GMT
What concerns me is that it is an outdated system that is rarely used in the top two leagues, the lower divisions tend to adopt it there is a reason for that, hopefully NJ can find a way to use it but I have my doubts, we would need another 8 players to even attempt it who are fit enough and prepared to buy into it 100% Do they lower leagues tend to adopt it? I can't think of any off the top of my head other than Luton, most player 4-4-2, 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 19, 2019 12:31:38 GMT
What concerns me is that it is an outdated system that is rarely used in the top two leagues, the lower divisions tend to adopt it there is a reason for that, hopefully NJ can find a way to use it but I have my doubts, we would need another 8 players to even attempt it who are fit enough and prepared to buy into it 100% Do they lower leagues tend to adopt it? I can't think of any off the top of my head other than Luton, most player 4-4-2, 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 Lambert's Norwich had some success with it.
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Post by chuckrocky on Mar 19, 2019 12:32:17 GMT
Sheffield United have had great success over the last three years using a pretty unique system. In fact if they go up this season, it will be Wilder’s third promotion in four seasons.
He sticks religiously to his 3-5-2 system and it has worked for him in league two, league one and the Championship.
Any system can be successful if you’ve got the players to fit it and a manager good enough to implement it.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Mar 19, 2019 12:40:58 GMT
Sheffield United have had great success over the last three years using a pretty unique system. In fact if they go up this season, it will be Wilder’s third promotion in four seasons. He sticks religiously to his 3-5-2 system and it has worked for him in league two, league one and the Championship. Any system can be successful if you’ve got the players to fit it and a manager good enough to implement it. Interestingly, the two strikers in that system operate in different functions too, Sharp is the finisher and generally McGoldrick/Washington/Clarke and Madine act as the ball winner, that's certainly a role that Vokes could operate in next year hopefully alongside a fit and firing Tyrese Campbell. His 3-5-2 also has a diamond within it just with the one of the back 3 operating as the backwards point, with an attacking midfielder. The two midfielders then sit in the middle as the fullbacks press on. It's certainly a good variation of the traditional 4-4-2 diamond and as you say has been employed to great effect by Wilder.
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Post by sneydgreenstokie1 on Mar 19, 2019 12:51:32 GMT
Sheffield United have had great success over the last three years using a pretty unique system. In fact if they go up this season, it will be Wilder’s third promotion in four seasons. He sticks religiously to his 3-5-2 system and it has worked for him in league two, league one and the Championship. Any system can be successful if you’ve got the players to fit it and a manager good enough to implement it. Have watched quite a bit of Sheff Utd as my father-in-law is a fan They play total football with the centre halves often ending up on the wings and centre mids at centre half No idea how he has managed it as many of their squad are very much journeymen A fantastic achievement regardless of promotion
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 19, 2019 12:52:49 GMT
Sheffield United have had great success over the last three years using a pretty unique system. In fact if they go up this season, it will be Wilder’s third promotion in four seasons. He sticks religiously to his 3-5-2 system and it has worked for him in league two, league one and the Championship. Any system can be successful if you’ve got the players to fit it and a manager good enough to implement it. The 3-5-2 system is fucking beautiful.
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Post by bolders on Mar 19, 2019 13:12:00 GMT
Sheffield United have had great success over the last three years using a pretty unique system. In fact if they go up this season, it will be Wilder’s third promotion in four seasons. He sticks religiously to his 3-5-2 system and it has worked for him in league two, league one and the Championship. Any system can be successful if you’ve got the players to fit it and a manager good enough to implement it. The 3-5-2 system is fucking beautiful. If we had a LB or LWB we could play that now with the players we have and i think we would be more effective
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Post by chuckrocky on Mar 19, 2019 13:12:29 GMT
Sheffield United have had great success over the last three years using a pretty unique system. In fact if they go up this season, it will be Wilder’s third promotion in four seasons. He sticks religiously to his 3-5-2 system and it has worked for him in league two, league one and the Championship. Any system can be successful if you’ve got the players to fit it and a manager good enough to implement it. The 3-5-2 system is fucking beautiful. Especially when it includes a marauding centre half.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Mar 19, 2019 13:18:27 GMT
The 3-5-2 system is fucking beautiful. Especially when it includes a marauding centre half. Neither Ryan nor Baath can be described as marauding.
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Mar 19, 2019 13:28:43 GMT
Having a preferred system is fine, using it at all costs and being unadaptable in your approach is naïve.
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Post by clarkeda on Mar 20, 2019 8:43:28 GMT
What concerns me is that it is an outdated system that is rarely used in the top two leagues, the lower divisions tend to adopt it there is a reason for that, hopefully NJ can find a way to use it but I have my doubts, we would need another 8 players to even attempt it who are fit enough and prepared to buy into it 100% To be fair, everyone said a back 3 wouldn’t work in the prem, conte did it now a large number of teams play it. Just takes someone to be successful with a particular formation.
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Post by reddipotter on Mar 20, 2019 9:05:11 GMT
Almost any system can work if you train for it and have the right players to fit it. It's chopping and changing formations that doesn't work.
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 20, 2019 11:10:46 GMT
Sheffield United have had great success over the last three years using a pretty unique system. In fact if they go up this season, it will be Wilder’s third promotion in four seasons. He sticks religiously to his 3-5-2 system and it has worked for him in league two, league one and the Championship. Any system can be successful if you’ve got the players to fit it and a manager good enough to implement it. Interestingly, the two strikers in that system operate in different functions too, Sharp is the finisher and generally McGoldrick/Washington/Clarke and Madine act as the ball winner, that's certainly a role that Vokes could operate in next year hopefully alongside a fit and firing Tyrese Campbell. His 3-5-2 also has a diamond within it just with the one of the back 3 operating as the backwards point, with an attacking midfielder. The two midfielders then sit in the middle as the fullbacks press on. It's certainly a good variation of the traditional 4-4-2 diamond and as you say has been employed to great effect by Wilder. This concept has long been in use, and sometimes referred to as "smash and grab". The most famous (infamous?) pairing was Toshack and Keegan. This article lists a few: www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/other-sport/striking-dread-opponents---double-3504882The recent interview of our CEO brought a memory back about Toshack when Scholes said the club scout a player a score of times before signing. Waddington had Toshack watched dozens of times at Cardiff before deciding to make a move for him, but Josh Mahoney advised his cousin Toshack not to join Stoke. Mahoney got in bad books for that and dropped out of the first team for a couple of seasons.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Mar 20, 2019 11:21:02 GMT
Interestingly, the two strikers in that system operate in different functions too, Sharp is the finisher and generally McGoldrick/Washington/Clarke and Madine act as the ball winner, that's certainly a role that Vokes could operate in next year hopefully alongside a fit and firing Tyrese Campbell. His 3-5-2 also has a diamond within it just with the one of the back 3 operating as the backwards point, with an attacking midfielder. The two midfielders then sit in the middle as the fullbacks press on. It's certainly a good variation of the traditional 4-4-2 diamond and as you say has been employed to great effect by Wilder. This concept has long been in use, and sometimes referred to as "smash and grab". The most famous (infamous?) pairing was Toshack and Keegan. This article lists a few: www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/other-sport/striking-dread-opponents---double-3504882The recent interview of our CEO brought a memory back about Toshack when Scholes said the club scout a player a score of times before signing. Waddington had Toshack watched dozens of times at Cardiff before deciding to make a move for him, but Josh Mahoney advised his cousin Toshack not to join Stoke. Mahoney got in bad books for that and dropped out of the first team for a couple of seasons. Heskey and Owen again, Owen's skill and speed compensated for Heskey's but without his ability to win the ball and hold it up there's no way he would have been as effective at such a young stage of his career without Heskey's presence.
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 18, 2019 16:21:09 GMT
www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stoke-city-delap-pulis-jones-2774175“Obviously he came in wanting to play a different formation and realised we haven’t got the players to do that"
“So he’s had to adapt, which is part of the job now, but in terms of the relentless work we do they are similar.
“The work ethic and the kind of play he wants, but he’s had to adapt a bit formation wise and the way we’ve played because of the players at the club.
“But in time, and with a few changes in personnel, it will go back to the way he wants to play in formation and style.”
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 18, 2019 17:02:12 GMT
More quotes from Jones here basically confirming it'll be the diamond next season and recruitment will be based on that
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 18, 2019 17:59:32 GMT
So...theoretically, that should be the end of McClean....and Ince?
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 18, 2019 18:06:53 GMT
So...theoretically, that should be the end of McClean....and Ince? And Verlinden?
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 18, 2019 18:13:35 GMT
So...theoretically, that should be the end of McClean....and Ince? And Verlinden? In terms of being a regular starter, you'd think so? Unless he could play the Number 10 role? (but he does seem very much an out-and-out winger, if a lot more skilled than McClean) But he's only young, on a long-term deal and on a lot less money than the other 'wingers', so he'd be a decent one to stay around the squad as a Plan B option if we need to change things up at any point? In terms of Ince, maybe Jones hasn't quite given up on him as a No.10, but the early signs haven't exactly been positive. Will he look to sell over the summer or give him a chance there in pre-season? Big decision to make - this is why it wou;d've been useful to give him more of an extended audition there in the closing stages of this season.
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Post by neddy on Apr 18, 2019 19:16:48 GMT
Still not sure what he wants at the base of the diamond....a beast type or a younger Adam?
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Post by dreamtheater on Apr 18, 2019 19:24:16 GMT
Diamond formation ?
no matter what you advertise the opOsiton can always counter it
I played 5 -3 -2- 1 at school ( 1 BEING THE GOALIE)
and latterly when adult 4.2.4 or more commonly 4.4.2
to me its not about formations - its ALL about players
and tactics
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 19:28:28 GMT
Still not sure what he wants at the base of the diamond....a beast type or a younger Adam? He used a couple of different players at the base of his diamond at Luton.
Glen Rea and Alan McCormack, both predominantly ball winners but players that can pass a bit. Both more strong than quick.
McCormack is the more experienced, but both are quite similar players.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 19:29:14 GMT
Diamond formation ? no matter what you advertise the opOsiton can always counter it I played 5 -3 -2- 1 at school ( 1 BEING THE GOALIE) and latterly when adult 4.2.4 or more commonly 4.4.2 to me its not about formations - its ALL about players and tactics Were you playing up front, Tone or just 2 at the back?
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Post by dreamtheater on Apr 18, 2019 19:31:28 GMT
centre forward or left winger
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Post by dreamtheater on Apr 18, 2019 19:32:40 GMT
in the days of wingers , inside forwards and half backs no midfielders
and yep 2 fullbacks
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 18, 2019 19:59:17 GMT
In terms of being a regular starter, you'd think so? Unless he could play the Number 10 role? (but he does seem very much an out-and-out winger, if a lot more skilled than McClean) But he's only young, on a long-term deal and on a lot less money than the other 'wingers', so he'd be a decent one to stay around the squad as a Plan B option if we need to change things up at any point? In terms of Ince, maybe Jones hasn't quite given up on him as a No.10, but the early signs haven't exactly been positive. Will he look to sell over the summer or give him a chance there in pre-season? Big decision to make - this is why it wou;d've been useful to give him more of an extended audition there in the closing stages of this season. I was playing devils advocate a bit mate. I'd keep Verlinden for now. I think there's more chance of moulding him into a number 10 than Ince. He has the look of a young Shaqiri about him. Plus he's a good option if a shape change is needed.
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 18, 2019 20:11:14 GMT
Butland
Edwards Batth Shawcross Clucas
Woods
Etebo Allen
Ince or Bojan
Vokes Afobe
Is it worth giving it a spin for the last few games?
Obviously he thinks we're just totally lacking in a few key positions for it to function properly
But, at this stage of the season, is there anything to lose - given he wants to hit the ground running with it in July?
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Post by neddy on Apr 18, 2019 20:17:11 GMT
Absolutely agree what’s to lose...
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Post by trickydicky73 on Apr 18, 2019 20:20:57 GMT
Butland Edwards Batth Shawcross Clucas Woods Etebo Allen Ince or Bojan Vokes Afobe Is it worth giving it a spin for the last few games? Obviously he thinks we're just totally lacking in a few key positions for it to function properly But, at this stage of the season, is there anything to lose - given he wants to hit the ground running with it in July? Looks decent to me. I take it Allen and Etebo are the box to boxers? What do you make of the diamond as a formation? Do it's strengths outweigh it's weaknesses?
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 18, 2019 20:35:00 GMT
Butland Edwards Batth Shawcross Clucas Woods Etebo Allen Ince or Bojan Vokes Afobe Is it worth giving it a spin for the last few games? Obviously he thinks we're just totally lacking in a few key positions for it to function properly But, at this stage of the season, is there anything to lose - given he wants to hit the ground running with it in July? Looks decent to me. I take it Allen and Etebo are the box to boxers? What do you make of the diamond as a formation? Do it's strengths outweigh it's weaknesses? Guess we'll find out! But the important thing is he seems to be totally convinced by it and associates all his success with it. He describes the full-backs and the deepest midfielder as "key" in lots of his interviews, so it'll be interesting to see who he targets there. You'd think it'd be the Luton bloke he targets for left-back, but the bloke he used most as the sitting midfielder is 34, so no chance of him coming on board. He was only 5' 8" though, so maybe it won't be some big beast.
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