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Post by lawrieleslie on Nov 1, 2019 16:31:10 GMT
It's the executing of innocent people that tips the balance towards not having a death sentence. There is currently a series on Netflix called "Innocent" based on book by John Grisham that tells the true story of Ronald Williamson, an innocent man, saved within an inch of his life from state sponsored lethal injection. His conviction was appealed numerous times at every level until it caught the attention of a judge on the Supreme Court Circuit who read his latest and final appeal and he was exonerated after 11 years on death row. In USA The Innocence Project fights wrongful convictions ....... www.innocenceproject.org/cases/ron-williamson/Here, if life imprisonment sentences meant exactly that, then maybe the clamour for the death penalty reinstatement would diminish. For me the death penalty is a revenge not a justice issue and has no place in a civilised society.
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Post by marylandstoke on Nov 1, 2019 16:55:50 GMT
I'm in favour of it for multiple repeat offenders. It should if you are convicted of 5 sentences deemed to deserving of a custodial sentence then lights out. I’m confused. If the sentencing is correct how do you get to five offenses?
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 1, 2019 17:38:41 GMT
No. He was a crap manager, but that's a step too far.
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Post by fortressbritannia on Nov 2, 2019 12:24:41 GMT
I'm in favour of it for multiple repeat offenders. It should if you are convicted of 5 sentences deemed to deserving of a custodial sentence then lights out. I’m confused. If the sentencing is correct how do you get to five offenses? Unfortunately there are plenty of offenders who go to prison multiple times.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 2, 2019 13:06:15 GMT
It's the executing of innocent people that tips the balance towards not having a death sentence. There is currently a series on Netflix called "Innocent" based on book by John Grisham that tells the true story of Ronald Williamson, an innocent man, saved within an inch of his life from state sponsored lethal injection. His conviction was appealed numerous times at every level until it caught the attention of a judge on the Supreme Court Circuit who read his latest and final appeal and he was exonerated after 11 years on death row. In USA The Innocence Project fights wrongful convictions ....... www.innocenceproject.org/cases/ron-williamson/Here, if life imprisonment sentences meant exactly that, then maybe the clamour for the death penalty reinstatement would diminish. For me the death penalty is a revenge not a justice issue and has no place in a civilised society. Indeed. And furthermore, for those people who genuinely want to see 'justice' for the victims, then they should be against the death penalty too ... In American states which HAVE the death penalty, you are far more likely to AVOID conviction, than you are in states which don't have it. Because the result of a conviction can't be reversed, it appears that jury's are far less likely to convict, for fear of making a mistake, in states where capital punishment is the penalty for murder.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2019 23:59:48 GMT
Are these people really capable of being 'real help' to society? To me it's not even a question. Why should criminals get a second and a third and fourth chance ... when their victims didn't even get their first? Contemplate on that. And the constant talk about their upbringing. Well, those people argueing about that, they should ask themselves: why aren't every poor person from the same neighbourhood a criminal? So yes, I agree with you, but at the same time, I'm not for the death penalty. There was a time in my life when I definitely wanted the death penalty for every crime there is. But I've changed my mind. Prisons would do. Science have showed criminal brains aren't looking the same as non-criminals brains do. And it's very difficult to change that. Society has to protect the non-criminals. Forever. Missed this in my notifications sorry matey*** Why should criminals get a second and a third and fourth chance ... when their victims didn't even get their first? Contemplate on that.Very good point, People in favour of punitive justice are always labelled as unforgiving - but you have to take into account all the choices that would lead to a second chance of ALL parties involved. I see serious crimes as breaking a seal that you cant just neatly put back into place. There was a time in my life when I definitely wanted the death penalty for every crime there is. But I've changed my mind. Prisons would do.I could live with it if they were never reintroduced into society. And I really think every prisoner should be made to cover their costs through labour (50-80k depending) But I realise that's just not feasible, these people are simply not worth the money they cost per year to house. Couple that with them paying for taking away the second chance of the victim and I'm still yet to hear a really good reason not to. For balance I am slightly uneasy about the idea of state-sponsored murder. Science have showed criminal brains aren't looking the same as non-criminals brains do. And it's very difficult to change that. Society has to protect the non-criminals. Forever.So certainly the Criminal justice system should take a much more in-depth look into brain injuries at youth offending level and deal with that appropriately, the amount of persons in the CJS with brain injuries is startling and the correlations are undeniable. But your point is a good one in terms of protecting the safety of society, My question to you would be at what cost?
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Post by musik on Nov 6, 2019 9:21:36 GMT
My question to you would be at what cost? No loss at all actually, but a profit, a net income to the nation. They do work in prison. The income belong to the state, minus the costs for them (food etc). Maybe I'm a softie, but it feels wrong to have a death penalty. Even though some would argue every civilized society should have one. God, how depressing this is.
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Post by mozzer68 on Nov 8, 2019 16:58:56 GMT
Sadly they would never bring it back cos the country has gone soft. Too many fuckin do-gooders and wet liberal tossers. personally i wouldn't have a problem pulling the lever of the trapdoor to finish off the likes of Ian Huntley or these brainwashed deluded ISIS fighters that have happily lived here for years who head off to kill our soldiers.
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Post by bathstoke on Nov 8, 2019 17:18:41 GMT
Sadly they would never bring it back cos the country has gone soft. Too many fuckin do-gooders and wet liberal tossers. personally i wouldn't have a problem pulling the lever of the trapdoor to finish off the likes of Ian Huntley or these brainwashed deluded ISIS fighters that have happily lived here for years who head off to kill our soldiers. Yeah, £@#&!n do-gooders. Going round & doing Good everywhere, b@$¥@&$! & Liberty, Who needs that $#!t!?!
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Post by duckling on Nov 9, 2019 0:22:29 GMT
I totally support it in theory and believe there are people who deserve it. However, I can't support it in practice. Humans are imperfect, legal systems are imperfect, and they always will be. There have been innocent people executed in the past, and there inevitably will be innocent people executed in the future if the death penalty exists.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Nov 11, 2019 15:12:48 GMT
I find it baffling that anyone would support it.
It achieves absolutely nothing other than some bloodthirsty, psychopathic vengeance. No good comes out of it. It's demonstratably not a deterrent.
It actually costs more to the state in legal appeals to put someone to death than it does to imprison them for life, despite common belief.
The state is showing that killing is wrong by killing, which is just bizarre.
Obviously there's an argument that innocent people have been put to death.
I wouldn't trust the government and the courts to organise the proverbial, let alone decide who gets to live or die.
Really though, unless someone is causing an immediate and direct threat to life, killing is always wrong.
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Post by bathstoke on Nov 11, 2019 15:48:58 GMT
I find it baffling that anyone would support it. It achieves absolutely nothing other than some bloodthirsty, psychopathic vengeance. No good comes out of it. It's demonstratably not a deterrent. It actually costs more to the state in legal appeals to put someone to death than it does to execute them, despite common belief. The state is showing that killing is wrong by killing, which is just bizarre. Obviously there's an argument that innocent people have been put to death. I wouldn't trust the government and the courts to organise the proverbial, let alone decide who gets to live or die. Really though, unless someone is causing an immediate and direct threat to life, killing is always wrong. If I could ‘Like’ this 10times I wouldXx
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 11, 2019 16:24:13 GMT
I find it baffling that anyone would support it. It achieves absolutely nothing other than some bloodthirsty, psychopathic vengeance. No good comes out of it. It's demonstratably not a deterrent. It actually costs more to the state in legal appeals to put someone to death than it does to execute them, despite common belief. The state is showing that killing is wrong by killing, which is just bizarre. Obviously there's an argument that innocent people have been put to death. I wouldn't trust the government and the courts to organise the proverbial, let alone decide who gets to live or die. Really though, unless someone is causing an immediate and direct threat to life, killing is always wrong. Maybe we should make the punishment fit the crime, seems some don't mind sharia law in this country perhaps we should adopt some of their punishments.
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Post by Goonie on Nov 12, 2019 15:53:46 GMT
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Post by musik on Nov 12, 2019 18:17:05 GMT
Prison officers dont get paid enough to associate with such creatures Being a prison officer is like serving a part time prison sentence.
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Post by Goonie on Nov 12, 2019 20:06:34 GMT
Prison officers dont get paid enough to associate with such creatures Being a prison officer is like serving a part time prison sentence. When I was a kid my Dad got sent down for 6 months for fighting Inside he was threatened with extra days on his sentence for any infraction of the rules He'd say to them that yes he'd get an extra few days but they had another 30+ years to do Wouldn't suit me as a career but some people are suited to it I guess
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Post by foster on Nov 12, 2019 21:06:58 GMT
I find it baffling that anyone would support it. It achieves absolutely nothing other than some bloodthirsty, psychopathic vengeance. No good comes out of it. It's demonstratably not a deterrent. It actually costs more to the state in legal appeals to put someone to death than it does to execute them, despite common belief. The state is showing that killing is wrong by killing, which is just bizarre. Obviously there's an argument that innocent people have been put to death. I wouldn't trust the government and the courts to organise the proverbial, let alone decide who gets to live or die. Really though, unless someone is causing an immediate and direct threat to life, killing is always wrong. Maybe we should make the punishment fit the crime, seems some don't mind sharia law in this country perhaps we should adopt some of their punishments. Why the reference only to Muslims. So unlike you.
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Post by foster on Nov 12, 2019 21:13:33 GMT
I find it baffling that anyone would support it. It achieves absolutely nothing other than some bloodthirsty, psychopathic vengeance. No good comes out of it. It's demonstratably not a deterrent. It actually costs more to the state in legal appeals to put someone to death than it does to imprison them for life, despite common belief. The state is showing that killing is wrong by killing, which is just bizarre. Obviously there's an argument that innocent people have been put to death. I wouldn't trust the government and the courts to organise the proverbial, let alone decide who gets to live or die. Really though, unless someone is causing an immediate and direct threat to life, killing is always wrong. So you think we should let mass murderers and mass rapists just spend their lives in a cushy prison leeching off our taxes? All we'd need to do is change the law to make capital punishment easier to enforce for horrific crimes. I'd rather spend the money on people who need it rather than on keeping someone with no chance of redemption alive and well. ... I guess the main issue for me is how comfortable prisons are. They need to literally be 4 walls, shit food, exempt from human rights privileges and basically a punishment as intended.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 12, 2019 21:28:46 GMT
I find it baffling that anyone would support it. It achieves absolutely nothing other than some bloodthirsty, psychopathic vengeance. No good comes out of it. It's demonstratably not a deterrent. It actually costs more to the state in legal appeals to put someone to death than it does to imprison them for life, despite common belief. The state is showing that killing is wrong by killing, which is just bizarre. Obviously there's an argument that innocent people have been put to death. I wouldn't trust the government and the courts to organise the proverbial, let alone decide who gets to live or die. Really though, unless someone is causing an immediate and direct threat to life, killing is always wrong. So you think we should let mass murderers and mass rapists just spend their lives in a cushy prison leeching off our taxes? All we'd need to do is change the law to make capital punishment easier to enforce for horrific crimes. I'd rather spend the money on people who need it rather than on keeping someone with no chance of redemption alive and well. ... I guess the main issue for me is how comfortable prisons are. They need to literally be 4 walls, shit food, exempt from human rights privileges and basically a punishment as intended. What is your view on wings been segregated on religious grounds ?
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Nov 12, 2019 21:54:57 GMT
I find it baffling that anyone would support it. It achieves absolutely nothing other than some bloodthirsty, psychopathic vengeance. No good comes out of it. It's demonstratably not a deterrent. It actually costs more to the state in legal appeals to put someone to death than it does to imprison them for life, despite common belief. The state is showing that killing is wrong by killing, which is just bizarre. Obviously there's an argument that innocent people have been put to death. I wouldn't trust the government and the courts to organise the proverbial, let alone decide who gets to live or die. Really though, unless someone is causing an immediate and direct threat to life, killing is always wrong. So you think we should let mass murderers and mass rapists just spend their lives in a cushy prison leeching off our taxes? All we'd need to do is change the law to make capital punishment easier to enforce for horrific crimes. I'd rather spend the money on people who need it rather than on keeping someone with no chance of redemption alive and well. ... I guess the main issue for me is how comfortable prisons are. They need to literally be 4 walls, shit food, exempt from human rights privileges and basically a punishment as intended. Well there's no need for it to be "cushy" but yes, keeping them alive is preferable to killing them. I would have no qualms about privatising the prison service and offering prisoners a choice to either do a shitload of work for benefit of their private "bosses" (in exchange for increased minimum living standards), or to choose a taxpayer funded shit-hole. Either way you're slashing the cost to the taxpayer. Edit- Also, what on earth is a "human rights privilege"? It's either a right or a privilege, it can't be both.
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Post by foster on Nov 12, 2019 22:23:24 GMT
So you think we should let mass murderers and mass rapists just spend their lives in a cushy prison leeching off our taxes? All we'd need to do is change the law to make capital punishment easier to enforce for horrific crimes. I'd rather spend the money on people who need it rather than on keeping someone with no chance of redemption alive and well. ... I guess the main issue for me is how comfortable prisons are. They need to literally be 4 walls, shit food, exempt from human rights privileges and basically a punishment as intended. What is your view on wings been segregated on religious grounds ? I disagree with them. I also disagree with prisoners being allowed any extra privileges related to religion....types of food, prayer times, etc.
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Post by The battheader chronicles on Nov 12, 2019 23:33:46 GMT
I find it baffling that anyone would support it. It achieves absolutely nothing other than some bloodthirsty, psychopathic vengeance. No good comes out of it. It's demonstratably not a deterrent. It actually costs more to the state in legal appeals to put someone to death than it does to imprison them for life, despite common belief. The state is showing that killing is wrong by killing, which is just bizarre. Obviously there's an argument that innocent people have been put to death. I wouldn't trust the government and the courts to organise the proverbial, let alone decide who gets to live or die. Really though, unless someone is causing an immediate and direct threat to life, killing is always wrong. So you think we should let mass murderers and mass rapists just spend their lives in a cushy prison leeching off our taxes? All we'd need to do is change the law to make capital punishment easier to enforce for horrific crimes. I'd rather spend the money on people who need it rather than on keeping someone with no chance of redemption alive and well. ... I guess the main issue for me is how comfortable prisons are. They need to literally be 4 walls, shit food, exempt from human rights privileges and basically a punishment as intended. I think there’s part of a valid point there. I think prisons need to be made harder for inmates. Having never been myself I can’t say for sure how hard they are, I’m always slightly sceptical of the articles you see along the lines of ‘nonce playing an Xbox with your tax money’ because I’m always weary of any articles designed to make/keep people angry. In terms of the death penalty I’m against it because no matter how many are 100% guilty ( the Lee Rigby killers mentioned are an emotive example) you’ll always get one wrong at some point
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Post by musik on Nov 12, 2019 23:55:43 GMT
I would have no qualms about privatising the prison service and offering prisoners a choice to either do a shitload of work for benefit of their private "bosses" (in exchange for increased minimum living standards), or to choose a taxpayer funded shit-hole. Either way you're slashing the cost to the taxpayer. With my model there will be revenues to the nation. Sidenote: Something is VERY wrong (in Sweden) when people commit crime just to be caught and sent to prison. A couple of years ago a young lad killed two persons he didn't knew, just because he wanted somewhere to stay.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Nov 13, 2019 8:20:20 GMT
I would have no qualms about privatising the prison service and offering prisoners a choice to either do a shitload of work for benefit of their private "bosses" (in exchange for increased minimum living standards), or to choose a taxpayer funded shit-hole. Either way you're slashing the cost to the taxpayer. With my model there will be revenues to the nation. Sidenote: Something is VERY wrong (in Sweden) when people commit crime just to be caught and sent to prison. A couple of years ago a young lad killed two persons he didn't knew, just because he wanted somewhere to stay. I worked in education department of a Young Offender Institution few years ago and this happened regularly with some young lads. Being in "prison" gave them security, mates and 3 meals a day. Killing someone to return to prison is OTT though. Repeat crimes by young offenders was relatively low level such as TWOCing cars, shop lifting, drug offences etc.
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Post by foster on Nov 13, 2019 12:36:29 GMT
So you think we should let mass murderers and mass rapists just spend their lives in a cushy prison leeching off our taxes? All we'd need to do is change the law to make capital punishment easier to enforce for horrific crimes. I'd rather spend the money on people who need it rather than on keeping someone with no chance of redemption alive and well. ... I guess the main issue for me is how comfortable prisons are. They need to literally be 4 walls, shit food, exempt from human rights privileges and basically a punishment as intended. Well there's no need for it to be "cushy" but yes, keeping them alive is preferable to killing them. I would have no qualms about privatising the prison service and offering prisoners a choice to either do a shitload of work for benefit of their private "bosses" (in exchange for increased minimum living standards), or to choose a taxpayer funded shit-hole. Either way you're slashing the cost to the taxpayer. Edit- Also, what on earth is a "human rights privilege"? It's either a right or a privilege, it can't be both. Makes sense to me but I can simplify it as: No human rights. Which means no voting rights, no say on their conditions, no religious bollocks, no freedom of speech or freedom of expression, nothing. If they then want then go on hunger strike or whatever then let them starve. Prisons should be their to act as a deterrent. I would prefer reducing the length of sentences but making the conditions so horrendous that people won't want to go back no matter what. You could argue that mistakes may be made at some point by using the death penalty, but then why not just apply it when the perpetrator is on video or has been identified by multiple eye witnesses. Where there is visual indisputable proof then there's no problem with it.
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Post by foster on Nov 13, 2019 12:40:50 GMT
With my model there will be revenues to the nation. Sidenote: Something is VERY wrong (in Sweden) when people commit crime just to be caught and sent to prison. A couple of years ago a young lad killed two persons he didn't knew, just because he wanted somewhere to stay. I worked in education department of a Young Offender Institution few years ago and this happened regularly with some young lads. Being in "prison" gave them security, mates and 3 meals a day. Killing someone to return to prison is OTT though. Repeat crimes by young offenders was relatively low level such as TWOCing cars, shop lifting, drug offences etc. My dad worked at one in Warrington and told me repeatedly that they had it too easy, playing on consoles all day and getting whatever they wanted by using the argument that something or another infringed on their human rights. He said the guards were pretty helpless to refuse as they'd get sanctioned for it. Everything about the country is too soft. Too soft in prisons, too soft on criminals, too soft on terrorists, too soft on benefit cheats, etc... and the people that pay for it are the honest ones that are more in need and deserving of support.
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Nov 14, 2019 11:58:27 GMT
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Post by Eggybread on Nov 14, 2019 12:14:17 GMT
Maybe we should make the punishment fit the crime, seems some don't mind sharia law in this country perhaps we should adopt some of their punishments. Why the reference only to Muslims. So unlike you. I would have been disappointed if he hadn't made a reference it is what we expect. Im actually surprised he doesn't show his true self more often,Im sure he tries though.
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Post by bathstoke on Nov 14, 2019 12:19:18 GMT
How did he manage to evade arrest for so long...
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