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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 10, 2018 15:18:13 GMT
Like who though, for that particular position? I'd put delph there at the moment. I'd then get a young ball playing midfielder in there with him. Yeah that could work, changing the shape of the team so the pivot has a bit more help. To be fair I think Henderson would be ok if he had that bit more help too. Delph’s lack of game time might hurt him I guess. The luckiest one to be in the team for me is Dele Alli, who doesn’t seem to fit into the side anywhere.
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Post by sportsman on Sept 10, 2018 15:48:16 GMT
I'd put delph there at the moment. I'd then get a young ball playing midfielder in there with him. Yeah that could work, changing the shape of the team so the pivot has a bit more help. To be fair I think Henderson would be ok if he had that bit more help too. Delph’s lack of game time might hurt him I guess. The luckiest one to be in the team for me is Dele Alli, who doesn’t seem to fit into the side anywhere. I agree. I'm not the biggest fan of delph at all, and as much as we're playing better now and I like Southgate, I'm just sick off seeing the likes of Henderson, and especially the anonymous dier, dele, and maybe lingard. Tomorrow, hopefully he bloods one or two others.
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Post by lordb on Sept 10, 2018 16:52:13 GMT
Like who though, for that particular position? I'd put delph there at the moment. I'd then get a young ball playing midfielder in there with him. Isn't that Ali?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 10, 2018 17:52:59 GMT
I'd put delph there at the moment. I'd then get a young ball playing midfielder in there with him. Isn't that Ali? Would you say he was a ball player? Hard to recall him really spraying passes around and he’s never looked as effective playing deeper.
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Post by StatesideStokie on Sept 10, 2018 17:54:22 GMT
Is it a fair assumption to say a lot of those lads came from council estates and working class families, by and large? Is it also fair to say that the working class are now finding football less and less accessible, but not totally out of reach in some cases? For example, and this is only a small part of it, but how many young kids on those estates are not being inspired by having no access to live football, or even football on TV due to Sky TV and their pricing? When I were a lad 😁 there was live football on TV every other week. As a young lad, you'd watch football and take that straight out into the street, take it to training of a weekend. It made you want to play and copy those players. Similar to Wimbledon and tennis. Try and get a tennis court at the Westlands in July and you can't. In May you could walk on and have your choice. Ditto down the snooker club in April. Can't get a table because the World's are on TV. Is that a fair point? Are there less lads with that type of character because they are from different demographics these days? I think you're half-right, but the problem is less to do with access and more to do with the Playstation and X-Box. When we were kids, we would be out in the streets or at the park trying to emulate the latest piece of skill or wonder-goal. These days, the kids just whack in FIFA2018, pick up the controller and boom....they're all fucking Messi or Ronaldo. The days of spending an entire Sunday up the Croft with half the estate playing a marathon game of nogger are long gone, and that has to have an impact.
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Post by lordb on Sept 10, 2018 17:55:17 GMT
Would you say he was a ball player? Hard to recall him really spraying passes around and he’s never looked as effective playing deeper. He's not a Hoddle spaying passes however he's a creative player,better in tight situations than most. The only out and out quality passer I can think of is Shelvey.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 10, 2018 17:57:24 GMT
Would you say he was a ball player? Hard to recall him really spraying passes around and he’s never looked as effective playing deeper. He's not a Hoddle spaying passes however he's a creative player,better in tight situations than most. The only out and out quality passer I can think of is Shelvey. Maybe Foden in time will take that role on. Loftus-Cheek isn’t really that kind of player but he’s powerful and can drive forward from deep. Needs to be playing though. Don’t think you can play Alli as part of a two, certainly not against someone like Spain.
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Post by lordb on Sept 10, 2018 18:03:03 GMT
He's not a Hoddle spaying passes however he's a creative player,better in tight situations than most. The only out and out quality passer I can think of is Shelvey. Maybe Foden in time will take that role on. Loftus-Cheek isn’t really that kind of player but he’s powerful and can drive forward from deep. Needs to be playing though. Don’t think you can play Alli as part of a two, certainly not against someone like Spain. Agreed,needs to be in a three Width to come from the wing backs. I think they can play further forward than they do already. Lotus Cheek absolutely needs to leave Chelsea ASAP. Foden... possible Pep will give him games
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 18:16:11 GMT
Is it a fair assumption to say a lot of those lads came from council estates and working class families, by and large? Is it also fair to say that the working class are now finding football less and less accessible, but not totally out of reach in some cases? For example, and this is only a small part of it, but how many young kids on those estates are not being inspired by having no access to live football, or even football on TV due to Sky TV and their pricing? When I were a lad 😁 there was live football on TV every other week. As a young lad, you'd watch football and take that straight out into the street, take it to training of a weekend. It made you want to play and copy those players. Similar to Wimbledon and tennis. Try and get a tennis court at the Westlands in July and you can't. In May you could walk on and have your choice. Ditto down the snooker club in April. Can't get a table because the World's are on TV. Is that a fair point? Are there less lads with that type of character because they are from different demographics these days? I think you're half-right, but the problem is less to do with access and more to do with the Playstation and X-Box. When we were kids, we would be out in the streets or at the park trying to emulate the latest piece of skill or wonder-goal. These days, the kids just whack in FIFA2018, pick up the controller and boom....they're all fucking Messi or Ronaldo. The days of spending an entire Sunday up the Croft with half the estate playing a marathon game of nogger are long gone, and that has to have an impact. How can you emulate something you haven't seen because your parents can't afford Sky?
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Post by thehoof on Sept 10, 2018 19:46:49 GMT
Yep, mainly because a succession of meat'n'taters Mike Bassetts didn't want any fancy Dans or big time Charlie's upsetting the cloggers....and one of the reasons we won fuck all and even failed to qualify in some cases.... English players were inferior. The mavericks referred to here had opportunities with England but as I said earlier made little impression on the whole. EG Bowles played against Italy in Rome in 76 and looked way out of his depth. It was the sort of game a player like him should thrive in but he was out of it. They were marvelous exciting talents but on the world stage nothing special. Apart from Hudson of course. Hudson definitely the exception-2 games including a man of the match performance against the then World Champions (W. Germany) and setting up a couple in the 5-0 thrashing of Cyprus ( Supermac with all 5) only for that traitor Revie to drop him because of his refusal to take the Revie dossiers seriously!
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Post by superheroantonius on Sept 10, 2018 20:07:30 GMT
I agree with waddle
I blame coaches and the modern obsession with stats
I remember reading in the paper( I think they were called carling opta stats at the time!), teddy Sheringham had the worst ' pass completion ' in the premier league
He was a class act, playing the number ten role for man United at the time, he was involved in loads of goals and Could have played for pretty much anyone in prem, but because he was constantly trying to play the killer ball, instead of squaring it, in the style of Glenn whelan, he had the worst stats in the league. It didn't seem to bother Alex ferguson, but the way ( some) coaches and ( most) sky/ MOTD pundits talk you would think ' pass completion ' was important. It wasn't really that important. Not as important as having a teddy Sheringham type player on the pitch, playing your strikers in. I think Andy Cole (?) was the United striker at the time and I suspect he couldn't care less what Sheringham's stats were as long as he kept playing him in to score goals
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Post by sportsman on Sept 10, 2018 20:39:00 GMT
I'd put delph there at the moment. I'd then get a young ball playing midfielder in there with him. Isn't that Ali? Internationally I just don't get him. In fact, I even forgot to get mad at him against Spain for having another bad game, as he I forgot he was even on the pitch. For me, until he starts playing for England I'd tell him to work more on his football and less on his celebrations. Everything that is wrong with the modern footballer
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 10, 2018 20:52:28 GMT
I agree with waddle I blame coaches and the modern obsession with stats I remember reading in the paper( I think they were called carling opta stats at the time!), teddy Sheringham had the worst ' pass completion ' in the premier league He was a class act, playing the number ten role for man United at the time, he was involved in loads of goals and Could have played for pretty much anyone in prem, but because he was constantly trying to play the killer ball, instead of squaring it, in the style of Glenn whelan, he had the worst stats in the league. It didn't seem to bother Alex ferguson, but the way ( some) coaches and ( most) sky/ MOTD pundits talk you would think ' pass completion ' was important. It wasn't really that important. Not as important as having a teddy Sheringham type player on the pitch, playing your strikers in. I think Andy Cole (?) was the United striker at the time and I suspect he couldn't care less what Sheringham's stats were as long as he kept playing him in to score goals Cole and Sheringham hated each other.
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Post by lordb on Sept 10, 2018 21:20:08 GMT
Internationally I just don't get him. In fact, I even forgot to get mad at him against Spain for having another bad game, as he I forgot he was even on the pitch. For me, until he starts playing for England I'd tell him to work more on his football and less on his celebrations. Everything that is wrong with the modern footballer He's underperforming for England but 'everything that is wrong...' is an unfair criticism.
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banx10
Academy Starlet
Posts: 197
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Post by banx10 on Sept 10, 2018 21:31:32 GMT
Coaches coach players to play the ball like a game of chess. Pass it to him, trap the ball. Pass it to him, trap the ball. Pass it to him, trap the ball. Then they eventually play the ball forward & lose the ball.
Then the other team, passes the ball & then they trap it etc etc.
I think it's borrrrrring.
It's only exciting when the ball gets near the box for a shot.
Passing to the goaly, to defender, to goaly to defender to defender to midfielder, back to defender, onto to goaly, back to defender crap, bloody stupid mind numbing time wasting.
Yeah we have the ball, but that's not how you win. That's called keeping possession (yeah if we have the ball, then they haven't got it, so can't score) football should be fast attacking play.
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Post by StatesideStokie on Sept 10, 2018 21:38:18 GMT
I think you're half-right, but the problem is less to do with access and more to do with the Playstation and X-Box. When we were kids, we would be out in the streets or at the park trying to emulate the latest piece of skill or wonder-goal. These days, the kids just whack in FIFA2018, pick up the controller and boom....they're all fucking Messi or Ronaldo. The days of spending an entire Sunday up the Croft with half the estate playing a marathon game of nogger are long gone, and that has to have an impact. How can you emulate something you haven't seen because your parents can't afford Sky? Pretty sure the kids are able to access most football without access to Sky. There's a fair number of "technologically challenged" folks on here that have managed to watch most of the last 10 years worth of Stoke games without paying for Sky, and if they can do it, I'm pretty sure the digitally-savvy youth of today are more than capable. This internet thingy is like a box of magic!
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Post by rawli on Sept 11, 2018 9:07:15 GMT
But they could of been more than special if we'd had England managers who set up to use people in the same way the club managers did,the biggest problem was people drooling over 'total football' and demanding we did it when the functional style of our club sides didn't do too bad while dominating European football. All the "experts" said the way our teams played would not work at international level,well it seemed to work when 6 European cups on the spin landed in England and can anyone tell me those teams had no flair players the likes of dalglish,Francis,Robertson,Morley,Shaw,Keegan certainly entertained me while terrorising the "cream" of European football UTV It’s funny that so many of the best players of that era and who were so influential to those victories were Scottish, yet Scotland routinely tanked at the World Cup. At least they qualified. It's incredible England didn't from 1970 to 82.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 11, 2018 9:57:40 GMT
It’s funny that so many of the best players of that era and who were so influential to those victories were Scottish, yet Scotland routinely tanked at the World Cup. At least they qualified. It's incredible England didn't from 1970 to 82. Yep. Must have been all those foreign lads swarming into our game during that time...
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Sept 11, 2018 10:09:39 GMT
The latest trend in England when we have a player with skill who can beat a man is STICK HIM ON THE WING always.
For me that totally lessens the influence that player can have. Look at the likes of Joe Cole, Theo Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Raheem Sterling.
England want central midfielders that tackle run and pass. Theres no chance of playing a Gascoigne or Le Tisser in the middle anymore because they are a luxury that cannot be afforded.
I want to see skillful players playing through the middle where they can beat a man and open up options to run on goal. Instead its -beat a man out-wide and cross the ball in for the big lad- which is the preferred managerial strategy.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Sept 11, 2018 11:42:07 GMT
Sorry mate but that comment is utter horse shit. My lad has been involved with junior youth football for the last 7 years and the scenario you give above is just not true. The majority of the managers ive come across have given up their time to try and train lads to play decent football. Do parents like to see strong fair challenges - yes, do parents like to see and appreciate good composed ball play - yes, do parents want to see their kids kicking or being kicked "10ft in the air" - do they bollocks. Not sure which junior sunday morning league you've been watching but it can't have been the NSJYL. My lad is just getting into junior football and I'm seeing something similar to werrington albeit it slightly different. Last season I went for a wander round the club where he is doing his fun training sessions and had a gander at a match involving what would have been 8/9 year olds. All I heard was the coach bellowing at the young lads at the back to 'hit the space in behind their defenders. Don't mess about with it, just hit it and get rid'. One lad bucked the trend, pulled in between two defenders, demanded the ball, played it to another player, made space, found space, got the ball back and passed it out. No danger, no fuss just a good piece of skill and sound maturity from a young lad. The result from the coach? "That's it lads, that's what i'm talking about. Get the ball and pass it out" Literally 2 minutes after he was bellowing the hit it long instructions, and approximately 30 seconds before he returned to it. The match was between Stone Dominoes and Newcastle Town. Absolutely disgraceful. Go and have a go at it yourself then? I'm not trying to start an argument but there's a bloke giving his time to 8/9 year old kids and although his methods are possibly questionable, I think it's a bit out of order to label them 'absolutely disgraceful'. Grassroots football may be an issue, but it's something that needs to be managed better from higher up the ladder.
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 11, 2018 12:08:57 GMT
The biggest injustice is Greenhoff never got even one cap.
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Post by sportsman on Sept 11, 2018 12:59:54 GMT
Internationally I just don't get him. In fact, I even forgot to get mad at him against Spain for having another bad game, as he I forgot he was even on the pitch. For me, until he starts playing for England I'd tell him to work more on his football and less on his celebrations. Everything that is wrong with the modern footballer He's underperforming for England but 'everything that is wrong...' is an unfair criticism. I just see players like Alli and pogba seem more bothered about off field stuff than being the best they can be on it. I'm trying to think of one single contribution to the England side Alli has made. Even at spurs he isn't the same as he was a year or two ago.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2018 13:48:43 GMT
My lad is just getting into junior football and I'm seeing something similar to werrington albeit it slightly different. Last season I went for a wander round the club where he is doing his fun training sessions and had a gander at a match involving what would have been 8/9 year olds. All I heard was the coach bellowing at the young lads at the back to 'hit the space in behind their defenders. Don't mess about with it, just hit it and get rid'. One lad bucked the trend, pulled in between two defenders, demanded the ball, played it to another player, made space, found space, got the ball back and passed it out. No danger, no fuss just a good piece of skill and sound maturity from a young lad. The result from the coach? "That's it lads, that's what i'm talking about. Get the ball and pass it out" Literally 2 minutes after he was bellowing the hit it long instructions, and approximately 30 seconds before he returned to it. The match was between Stone Dominoes and Newcastle Town. Absolutely disgraceful. Go and have a go at it yourself then? I'm not trying to start an argument but there's a bloke giving his time to 8/9 year old kids and although his methods are possibly questionable, I think it's a bit out of order to label them 'absolutely disgraceful'. Grassroots football may be an issue, but it's something that needs to be managed better from higher up the ladder. Fair point, maybe a bit harsh. I'm just very passionate about youth football and getting it right at that age as it sets them up for life. Proper, structured coaching sending clear messages and instructions to young lads who want to enjoy football. Enjoy it they should. The right people have to be doing it and the right people have to be coaching the coaches. John Beck until very recently was involved in mentoring coaches at the FA on the UEFA B badges. I think that speaks volumes. Would I do it? No, because I'm not good enough. I know a bad coach when I see one though, and there are plenty of those around.
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Post by rawli on Sept 11, 2018 14:18:12 GMT
He's underperforming for England but 'everything that is wrong...' is an unfair criticism. I just see players like Alli and pogba seem more bothered about off field stuff than being the best they can be on it. I'm trying to think of one single contribution to the England side Alli has made. Even at spurs he isn't the same as he was a year or two ago. His goal celebration is outstanding..
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 11, 2018 16:06:46 GMT
Still some real creative talent emerging in the age-group teams. The future's definitely brighter - it's just a question of them getting the game time.
The Foden/Sancho/Hudson-Odoi U19 generation have just smashed Holland 4-1 and Belgium 2-1 this week, and England u17 are currently playing in a mini tournament in Poland.
Beat Norway 6-0 on Friday, and 3-1 up v Belgium in the final after half an hour
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 11, 2018 16:14:47 GMT
He's underperforming for England but 'everything that is wrong...' is an unfair criticism. I just see players like Alli and pogba seem more bothered about off field stuff than being the best they can be on it. I'm trying to think of one single contribution to the England side Alli has made. Even at spurs he isn't the same as he was a year or two ago. I get what you are saying but it's not like some of our most talented players weren't distracted by off the field shenanigans though. Bowles, Gazza, Huddy, Worthington, George Best spent their fair share of time either in the bookies, the pub, nightclubs, playing the field etc, etc Didn't they have to drag Stan Bowles out of the bookies to play on a Saturday afternoon?
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 11, 2018 16:16:44 GMT
England U17s now beating Belgium 5-1.
They're really good.
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 14, 2018 20:37:54 GMT
Sancho continuing to impress for Dortmund. Surely he'll be in the England squad soon?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 14, 2018 20:45:51 GMT
Sancho continuing to impress for Dortmund. Surely he'll be in the England squad soon? I was just about to post this! He has to be. He’s proving himself at a big club in one of the best leagues in the world.
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 14, 2018 20:50:40 GMT
Sancho continuing to impress for Dortmund. Surely he'll be in the England squad soon? I was just about to post this! He has to be. He’s proving himself at a big club in one of the best leagues in the world. Yeah - I read somewhere that they wanted to keep that special Foden-Sancho-Hudson-Odoi u17 World Cup generation together through the age groups,rather than rushing them. But when you're ready, you're ready - and it's clear he is. Just hope Foden and Hudson-Odoi don't end up in the traditional vortex that 18-23 year-olds at big clubs end up in.
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