|
Post by supersimonstainrod on Sept 8, 2018 7:06:42 GMT
Is it a fair assumption to say a lot of those lads came from council estates and working class families, by and large? Is it also fair to say that the working class are now finding football less and less accessible, but not totally out of reach in some cases? For example, and this is only a small part of it, but how many young kids on those estates are not being inspired by having no access to live football, or even football on TV due to Sky TV and their pricing? When I were a lad 😁 there was live football on TV every other week. As a young lad, you'd watch football and take that straight out into the street, take it to training of a weekend. It made you want to play and copy those players. Similar to Wimbledon and tennis. Try and get a tennis court at the Westlands in July and you can't. In May you could walk on and have your choice. Ditto down the snooker club in April. Can't get a table because the World's are on TV. Is that a fair point? Are there less lads with that type of character because they are from different demographics these days? Off on a slight tangent,but the Futsal thread got me thinking as to how,as kids, we were allowed to play football with a tennis ball at break/lunchtime at school,it really honed guys' techniques as there was little tackling on a concrete playground,are kids allowed to do this these days? Do they even have the inclination in these smart phone/tablet/playstation dominated days? Having said that at Power Leagu venues and other 5-a-side events I see lads doing extraordinary stuff,seems strange how so many slip through or are lost to the footballing 'system.'
|
|
|
Post by PerCyfilth ....Captains Log on Sept 8, 2018 7:20:49 GMT
Its all about getting up and down the pitch and your" Engine" and physicality..The art, skill, guile are very much secondary. The likes of our own George Eastham for instance wouldn't have got a sniff in todays game.
|
|
|
Post by kidcrewbob on Sept 8, 2018 8:33:29 GMT
Even when we did produce these flair players we didn't use them much anyway. Hudson, Currie, Marsh, Bowles and Worthington won less than 50 caps between them. Yep, mainly because a succession of meat'n'taters Mike Bassetts didn't want any fancy Dans or big time Charlie's upsetting the cloggers....and one of the reasons we won fuck all and even failed to qualify in some cases....
|
|
|
Post by greyman on Sept 8, 2018 9:52:28 GMT
Struggling to clear Minis now they are much bigger. I could age people by how they respond to this comment
|
|
|
Post by JoeinOz on Sept 8, 2018 10:01:04 GMT
Even when we did produce these flair players we didn't use them much anyway. Hudson, Currie, Marsh, Bowles and Worthington won less than 50 caps between them. Yep, mainly because a succession of meat'n'taters Mike Bassetts didn't want any fancy Dans or big time Charlie's upsetting the cloggers....and one of the reasons we won fuck all and even failed to qualify in some cases.... English players were inferior. The mavericks referred to here had opportunities with England but as I said earlier made little impression on the whole. EG Bowles played against Italy in Rome in 76 and looked way out of his depth. It was the sort of game a player like him should thrive in but he was out of it. They were marvelous exciting talents but on the world stage nothing special. Apart from Hudson of course.
|
|
|
Post by spitthedog on Sept 8, 2018 10:01:36 GMT
Apart from Hudson none of the mavericks made much impression for England. Because apart from Hudson none of them were actually good enough to do so. They looked classy in the league but at international level different things are required and despite the rich talent English football used to belittle the notion of adaptability. The early to mid 70s was the start of English players getting left behind and the insularity of the game exacerbated the decline. I agree,
Hudson apart these were players that could light up a game, and have you walking home thinking that you'd just watched a world beater in action, but the same could be said of dozens of players over the years, Steve McManaman, Paul Walsh. Peter Barnes, Mark Walters, Alan Devonshire, Duncan McKenzie, even Chamberlain. These weren't ignored great talent, they were players that could be fantastic on their day, but their day wasn't often enough. There was good reason that they couldn't keep the likes of Keegan, Brooking, Barnes (John), and Francis out of the England team, that's because Brooking, Keegan, Barnes and Francis were better.
(To be honest my argument falls apart when trying to justify the presence of Paul Mariner, and David Johnson in the England team though ) Brooking and Barnes fall into the category of the types of creative players we don’t produce anymore, and they won a lot of caps. We don’t have anyone remotely of the ability and creativity of Brooking
|
|
|
Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Sept 8, 2018 10:07:13 GMT
Having said that at Power Leagu venues and other 5-a-side events I see lads doing extraordinary stuff,seems strange how so many slip through or are lost to the booze and birds!' It's not just England though is it? Can we name ten players in the world, of this ilk, playing international football? In winning the world cup the French were more functional than flair despite their wealth of talent.
|
|
|
Post by rawli on Sept 8, 2018 10:32:47 GMT
Struggling to clear Minis now they are much bigger. I could age people by how they respond to this comment Haha. I imagine some confused looks. It's an amazing feat though!
|
|
|
Post by staffsvilla on Sept 8, 2018 10:42:01 GMT
Yep, mainly because a succession of meat'n'taters Mike Bassetts didn't want any fancy Dans or big time Charlie's upsetting the cloggers....and one of the reasons we won fuck all and even failed to qualify in some cases.... English players were inferior. The mavericks referred to here had opportunities with England but as I said earlier made little impression on the whole. EG Bowles played against Italy in Rome in 76 and looked way out of his depth. It was the sort of game a player like him should thrive in but he was out of it. They were marvelous exciting talents but on the world stage nothing special. Apart from Hudson of course. But they could of been more than special if we'd had England managers who set up to use people in the same way the club managers did,the biggest problem was people drooling over 'total football' and demanding we did it when the functional style of our club sides didn't do too bad while dominating European football. All the "experts" said the way our teams played would not work at international level,well it seemed to work when 6 European cups on the spin landed in England and can anyone tell me those teams had no flair players the likes of dalglish,Francis,Robertson,Morley,Shaw,Keegan certainly entertained me while terrorising the "cream" of European football UTV
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 8, 2018 10:47:42 GMT
English players were inferior. The mavericks referred to here had opportunities with England but as I said earlier made little impression on the whole. EG Bowles played against Italy in Rome in 76 and looked way out of his depth. It was the sort of game a player like him should thrive in but he was out of it. They were marvelous exciting talents but on the world stage nothing special. Apart from Hudson of course. But they could of been more than special if we'd had England managers who set up to use people in the same way the club managers did,the biggest problem was people drooling over 'total football' and demanding we did it when the functional style of our club sides didn't do too bad while dominating European football. All the "experts" said the way our teams played would not work at international level,well it seemed to work when 6 European cups on the spin landed in England and can anyone tell me those teams had no flair players the likes of dalglish,Francis,Robertson,Morley,Shaw,Keegan certainly entertained me while terrorising the "cream" of European football UTV It’s funny that so many of the best players of that era and who were so influential to those victories were Scottish, yet Scotland routinely tanked at the World Cup.
|
|
|
Post by JoeinOz on Sept 8, 2018 11:27:00 GMT
English players were inferior. The mavericks referred to here had opportunities with England but as I said earlier made little impression on the whole. EG Bowles played against Italy in Rome in 76 and looked way out of his depth. It was the sort of game a player like him should thrive in but he was out of it. They were marvelous exciting talents but on the world stage nothing special. Apart from Hudson of course. But they could of been more than special if we'd had England managers who set up to use people in the same way the club managers did,the biggest problem was people drooling over 'total football' and demanding we did it when the functional style of our club sides didn't do too bad while dominating European football. All the "experts" said the way our teams played would not work at international level,well it seemed to work when 6 European cups on the spin landed in England and can anyone tell me those teams had no flair players the likes of dalglish,Francis,Robertson,Morley,Shaw,Keegan certainly entertained me while terrorising the "cream" of European football UTV The success of English clubs in Europe was largely down to superior fitness. During the 85-90 ban continental teams 'caught up' in that respect and continued to evolve and when English sides returned and weren't able to deal with it. It's improved since though imho.
|
|
|
Post by lawrieleslie on Sept 8, 2018 11:39:57 GMT
Waddington gave Hudson free reign to operate box to box. There was nothing more exciting as a stoke fan to see Hudson, in his own half with one foot on the ball, look around him and spray passes with pin point accuracy down the channels for TC or down the middle for JG to flick on the big John. Hudson was a one off....great shame he was ruined by Terry Neil when he moved to the arse. Neil coached all that was good about Hudson out of him and Hudson knew this and quickly moved to the states after a season. Great shame.
|
|
sifta
Youth Player
Posts: 449
|
Post by sifta on Sept 8, 2018 11:52:38 GMT
Mariner scored 13 goals in 35 games for England which isn't too bad really. Also, remember the magnificent Brazil team of 1982 had Serginho up front!
Wow, I'm amazed, (I'm also dismayed by the underhand use of facts on this MB), I take it back, I think I owe Mr. Mariner an apology.
|
|
|
Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 8, 2018 12:00:39 GMT
As for Stoke fans moaning ...they are too obsessed with getting stuck in and tracking back so I don’t think many on here can complain about the standard of English football as if you come in here every day they don’t want an Alan Hudson they want a Jon Walters While both have their detractors, I'd argue Bojan is more loved than Walters. I'm a big fan of both.
|
|
|
Post by henry on Sept 8, 2018 12:11:49 GMT
We don’t produce anymore Hudson’s or Curries because even at schoolboys football we have this obsession with “getting stuck in” or telling 8 year olds to “be strong” Walk around any Sunday morning pitches and you’ll see it....the lad who puts his foot on it and finds a pass gets no recognition whilst the lad who puts somebody 10ft in the air gets a pat on the back at ht and cheers from the watching parents and held up as an example ....until you get rid of that culture nothing will change As for Stoke fans moaning ...they are too obsessed with getting stuck in and tracking back so I don’t think many on here can complain about the standard of English football as if you come in here every day they don’t want an Alan Hudson they want a Jon Walters Sorry mate but that comment is utter horse shit. My lad has been involved with junior youth football for the last 7 years and the scenario you give above is just not true. The majority of the managers ive come across have given up their time to try and train lads to play decent football. Do parents like to see strong fair challenges - yes, do parents like to see and appreciate good composed ball play - yes, do parents want to see their kids kicking or being kicked "10ft in the air" - do they bollocks. Not sure which junior sunday morning league you've been watching but it can't have been the NSJYL.
|
|
|
Post by spitthedog on Sept 8, 2018 12:45:04 GMT
But they could of been more than special if we'd had England managers who set up to use people in the same way the club managers did,the biggest problem was people drooling over 'total football' and demanding we did it when the functional style of our club sides didn't do too bad while dominating European football. All the "experts" said the way our teams played would not work at international level,well it seemed to work when 6 European cups on the spin landed in England and can anyone tell me those teams had no flair players the likes of dalglish,Francis,Robertson,Morley,Shaw,Keegan certainly entertained me while terrorising the "cream" of European football UTV It’s funny that so many of the best players of that era and who were so influential to those victories were Scottish, yet Scotland routinely tanked at the World Cup. Watch the Argentina doc for an explanation of what went wrong there!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2018 12:59:50 GMT
We don’t produce anymore Hudson’s or Curries because even at schoolboys football we have this obsession with “getting stuck in” or telling 8 year olds to “be strong” Walk around any Sunday morning pitches and you’ll see it....the lad who puts his foot on it and finds a pass gets no recognition whilst the lad who puts somebody 10ft in the air gets a pat on the back at ht and cheers from the watching parents and held up as an example ....until you get rid of that culture nothing will change As for Stoke fans moaning ...they are too obsessed with getting stuck in and tracking back so I don’t think many on here can complain about the standard of English football as if you come in here every day they don’t want an Alan Hudson they want a Jon Walters Sorry mate but that comment is utter horse shit. My lad has been involved with junior youth football for the last 7 years and the scenario you give above is just not true. The majority of the managers ive come across have given up their time to try and train lads to play decent football. Do parents like to see strong fair challenges - yes, do parents like to see and appreciate good composed ball play - yes, do parents want to see their kids kicking or being kicked "10ft in the air" - do they bollocks. Not sure which junior sunday morning league you've been watching but it can't have been the NSJYL. My lad is just getting into junior football and I'm seeing something similar to werrington albeit it slightly different. Last season I went for a wander round the club where he is doing his fun training sessions and had a gander at a match involving what would have been 8/9 year olds. All I heard was the coach bellowing at the young lads at the back to 'hit the space in behind their defenders. Don't mess about with it, just hit it and get rid'. One lad bucked the trend, pulled in between two defenders, demanded the ball, played it to another player, made space, found space, got the ball back and passed it out. No danger, no fuss just a good piece of skill and sound maturity from a young lad. The result from the coach? "That's it lads, that's what i'm talking about. Get the ball and pass it out" Literally 2 minutes after he was bellowing the hit it long instructions, and approximately 30 seconds before he returned to it. The match was between Stone Dominoes and Newcastle Town. Absolutely disgraceful.
|
|
|
Post by henry on Sept 8, 2018 13:11:20 GMT
Sorry mate but that comment is utter horse shit. My lad has been involved with junior youth football for the last 7 years and the scenario you give above is just not true. The majority of the managers ive come across have given up their time to try and train lads to play decent football. Do parents like to see strong fair challenges - yes, do parents like to see and appreciate good composed ball play - yes, do parents want to see their kids kicking or being kicked "10ft in the air" - do they bollocks. Not sure which junior sunday morning league you've been watching but it can't have been the NSJYL. My lad is just getting into junior football and I'm seeing something similar to werrington albeit it slightly different. Last season I went for a wander round the club where he is doing his fun training sessions and had a gander at a match involving what would have been 8/9 year olds. All I heard was the coach bellowing at the young lads at the back to 'hit the space in behind their defenders. Don't mess about with it, just hit it and get rid'. One lad bucked the trend, pulled in between two defenders, demanded the ball, played it to another player, made space, found space, got the ball back and passed it out. No danger, no fuss just a good piece of skill and sound maturity from a young lad. The result from the coach? "That's it lads, that's what i'm talking about. Get the ball and pass it out" Literally 2 minutes after he was bellowing the hit it long instructions, and approximately 30 seconds before he returned to it. The match was between Stone Dominoes and Newcastle Town. Absolutely disgraceful. I have seen similar myself, i know that type of coach exists, but nothing you have wrote there backs up what i have highlighted in Werringtons post. Managers cluelessly bawling and shouting is not the same as encouraging kicking players off the pitch - which i have never seen in the last 7 years.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2018 13:21:23 GMT
My lad is just getting into junior football and I'm seeing something similar to werrington albeit it slightly different. Last season I went for a wander round the club where he is doing his fun training sessions and had a gander at a match involving what would have been 8/9 year olds. All I heard was the coach bellowing at the young lads at the back to 'hit the space in behind their defenders. Don't mess about with it, just hit it and get rid'. One lad bucked the trend, pulled in between two defenders, demanded the ball, played it to another player, made space, found space, got the ball back and passed it out. No danger, no fuss just a good piece of skill and sound maturity from a young lad. The result from the coach? "That's it lads, that's what i'm talking about. Get the ball and pass it out" Literally 2 minutes after he was bellowing the hit it long instructions, and approximately 30 seconds before he returned to it. The match was between Stone Dominoes and Newcastle Town. Absolutely disgraceful. I have seen similar myself, i know that type of coach exists, but nothing you have wrote there backs up what i have highlighted in Werringtons post. Managers cluelessly bawling and shouting is not the same as encouraging kicking players off the pitch - which i have never seen in the last 7 years. It isn't the same, I agree and I pretty much said that in the first paragraph. It's just as damaging to a young player though, even if it is from a slightly different angle.
|
|
|
Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Sept 8, 2018 13:29:10 GMT
English players were inferior. The mavericks referred to here had opportunities with England but as I said earlier made little impression on the whole. EG Bowles played against Italy in Rome in 76 and looked way out of his depth. It was the sort of game a player like him should thrive in but he was out of it. They were marvelous exciting talents but on the world stage nothing special. Apart from Hudson of course. But they could of been more than special if we'd had England managers who set up to use people in the same way the club managers did,the biggest problem was people drooling over 'total football' and demanding we did it when the functional style of our club sides didn't do too bad while dominating European football. All the "experts" said the way our teams played would not work at international level,well it seemed to work when 6 European cups on the spin landed in England and can anyone tell me those teams had no flair players the likes of dalglish,Francis,Robertson,Morley,Shaw,Keegan certainly entertained me while terrorising the "cream" of European football UTV Didn't one manager did try picking nearly the entire Liverpool team, Greenwood? Pity all the flair players weren't English!
|
|
|
Post by henry on Sept 8, 2018 13:45:15 GMT
I have seen similar myself, i know that type of coach exists, but nothing you have wrote there backs up what i have highlighted in Werringtons post. Managers cluelessly bawling and shouting is not the same as encouraging kicking players off the pitch - which i have never seen in the last 7 years. It isn't the same, I agree and I pretty much said that in the first paragraph. It's just as damaging to a young player though, even if it is from a slightly different angle. It's Wezza's sweeping generalising statement i have an issue with regarding the state of sunday morning football and who's to blame i have an issue with. I agree with you that there is no place for dinosaur coaches like the one in your example, but from my experience that type are few and far between. Thankfully most of the managers i have seen are always positive towards the kids, even in defeat. They encourage the kids to show respect to their team mates and to the teams that they play against, to have fun and enjoy what they are doing. Both teams line up at the end and shake hands, the parents always clap both teams off the pitch then thats it till the following sunday - no cheering and shoulder carrying a player who's being held a hero because he's just spent the last 80 minutes kicking the opposition black and blue. This "culture" does not exist.
|
|
|
Post by werrington on Sept 8, 2018 13:52:43 GMT
It isn't the same, I agree and I pretty much said that in the first paragraph. It's just as damaging to a young player though, even if it is from a slightly different angle. It's Wezza's sweeping generalising statement i have an issue with regarding the state of sunday morning football and who's to blame i have an issue with. I agree with you that there is no place for dinosaur coaches like the one in your example, but from my experience that type are few and far between. Thankfully most of the managers i have seen are always positive towards the kids, even in defeat. They encourage the kids to show respect to their team mates and to the teams that they play against, to have fun and enjoy what they are doing. Both teams line up at the end and shake hands, the parents always clap both teams off the pitch then thats it till the following sunday - no cheering and shoulder carrying a player who's being held a hero because he's just spent the last 80 minutes kicking the opposition black and blue. This "culture" does not exist. It’s all changed then mate...my lad is now 22 so it’s all in the past but it was very prevalent back then Thankfully it’s been addressed as there were more Stuart Pearce type managers than Glenn Hoddle around the Sunday morning pitches back in those not too distant days Moving on though Stoke fans are as guilty as anybody demanding players track back or get stuck in and would sooner have a Walters rather than a Shaqiri or Bojan which is all relative Anyway we digress .....maybe just maybe that’s the reason we are now dominating at youth level internationally?
|
|
|
Post by tony1234 on Sept 8, 2018 13:58:12 GMT
www.bbc.com/sport/football/45384797the likes of Gazza, Hudson, Currie, Hoddle, Bowles, Marsh, Worthington, Cunningham, Waddle, Barnes we just don't produce the likes of these anymore. It's been eliminated through our coaching techniques. At one time it seemed like every club had got one! This is not just nostalgia, its a disease with English football and coaching. At Stoke we have got a manager now who doesn't trust Baeur , Bojan etc because they are liable to make the odd mistake. Just like TPO didn't trust Tuncay etc. We don't happen to have an English player like these, and neither do many other clubs. I know some people will dismiss it because they think it's Waddle whining on again...but if you look beyond the personality, the point is very important for English football. We got to a semi-final with hard work and organisation but it's just not enough in the end! While true, its probably true of many nations who can say that. During the time of Hudson, Currie, Bowles etc - we were also a second rate international team Its interesting, and a little sad, that while Ronaldo shone, how many times do the real stars fail to light up modern international touraments- Messi, Aguero, Neymar, etc. Mostly, team systems usurp and negate individuals these days except for the odd flash maybe. Am not disagreeing, just think that Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Italy, Dutch, Polish, and (Scotland!) and others say might say the same. Perhaps it is nostalgia but im sure pretty much the whole Brazillian team of 82 were fantastic players, including defenders, compared to a much more athletic and efficient team of today, punctuated with the odd star. I ultimately think an England team of 2018 would comfortably dispatch the flowing-hair, socks-round-ankles mavericks of the 70s.
|
|
|
Post by GrahamHyde on Sept 8, 2018 13:59:30 GMT
Absolute rubbish about Sterling, talking about 22 goals like it's nothing.
The reason they are such a good side is because of players like him!
|
|
|
Post by biddulphchav on Sept 8, 2018 17:35:39 GMT
A lot of modern football coaching involves limited time on the ball, in my opinion. Too many structured drills means players might touch the ball 50-60 times in a 2 hour session. It should be far far higher than that. See how few genuinely two footed players we produce when compared with others. We ought to focus on technique and teach matchplay much later on.
|
|
|
Post by sportsman on Sept 10, 2018 12:39:36 GMT
Or we have a manager that persists with Henderson and dier instead of giving someone younger a go. Some managers daren't give someone ago in there in are they do play well.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 10, 2018 12:48:15 GMT
Or we have a manager that persists with Henderson and dier instead of giving someone younger a go. Some managers daren't give someone ago in there in are they do play well. Like who though, for that particular position?
|
|
|
Post by lordb on Sept 10, 2018 13:05:46 GMT
Or we have a manager that persists with Henderson and dier instead of giving someone younger a go. Some managers daren't give someone ago in there in are they do play well. Like who though, for that particular position? Cupboard is bare for 'holding' midfielders. So either: persist with Dier/Henderson Play someone 'out of position' (Stones maybe?) Or just play without one.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 10, 2018 13:08:11 GMT
Like who though, for that particular position? Cupboard is bare for 'holding' midfielders. So either: persist with Dier/Henderson Play someone 'out of position' (Stones maybe?) Or just play without one. Not sure you can play without someone who at least has a bit of nous defensively off the ball, certainly at that level. Agree those are the choices though.
|
|
|
Post by sportsman on Sept 10, 2018 14:57:39 GMT
Or we have a manager that persists with Henderson and dier instead of giving someone younger a go. Some managers daren't give someone ago in there in are they do play well. Like who though, for that particular position? I'd put delph there at the moment. I'd then get a young ball playing midfielder in there with him.
|
|