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Post by spitthedog on Sept 7, 2018 18:04:10 GMT
www.bbc.com/sport/football/45384797the likes of Gazza, Hudson, Currie, Hoddle, Bowles, Marsh, Worthington, Cunningham, Waddle, Barnes we just don't produce the likes of these anymore. It's been eliminated through our coaching techniques. At one time it seemed like every club had got one! This is not just nostalgia, its a disease with English football and coaching. At Stoke we have got a manager now who doesn't trust Baeur , Bojan etc because they are liable to make the odd mistake. Just like TPO didn't trust Tuncay etc. We don't happen to have an English player like these, and neither do many other clubs. I know some people will dismiss it because they think it's Waddle whining on again...but if you look beyond the personality, the point is very important for English football. We got to a semi-final with hard work and organisation but it's just not enough in the end!
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Post by stokey spoon on Sept 7, 2018 18:06:49 GMT
Agreed massively! Missed out Letissier though!
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Post by GeneralFaye on Sept 7, 2018 18:10:35 GMT
www.bbc.com/sport/football/45384797the likes of Gazza, Hudson, Currie, Hoddle, Bowles, Marsh, Worthington, Cunningham, Waddle, Barnes we just don't produce the likes of these anymore. It's been eliminated through our coaching techniques. At one time it seemed like every club had got one! This is not just nostalgia, its a disease with English football and coaching. At Stoke we have got a manager now who doesn't trust Baeur , Bojan etc because they are liable to make the odd mistake. Just like TPO didn't trust Tuncay etc. We don't happen to have an English player like these, and neither do many other clubs. I know some people will dismiss it because they think it's Waddle whining on again...but if you look beyond the personality, the point is very important for English football. We got to a semi-final with hard work and organisation but it's just not enough in the end! Why throw in Bauer? The manager doesn't rate him defensively, nothing to do with anything else.
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 7, 2018 18:12:17 GMT
Agreed massively! Missed out Letissier though! Yes Le Tissier, a good call....and probably a fair few others and the truth is Rowett would be in 2 minds about whether to put Le Tissier on our bench.
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Sept 7, 2018 18:12:26 GMT
Same with Rooney.
When he was at Everton all he wanted to do was go at/get past players using his skill, strength and dogged determination with players bouncing off him. As soon as he went to Man Utd. all of that was coached out of him. Don't get me wrong, he was still damn good for years at Man Utd. but i'd much rather have seen that exciting, bullish Rooney with an abundance of skills for England than the one we ended up with. Top scorer yes,but i still think he'd have got more if he'd been the Everton Rooney though.
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Post by werrington on Sept 7, 2018 18:15:59 GMT
We don’t produce anymore Hudson’s or Curries because even at schoolboys football we have this obsession with “getting stuck in” or telling 8 year olds to “be strong”
Walk around any Sunday morning pitches and you’ll see it....the lad who puts his foot on it and finds a pass gets no recognition whilst the lad who puts somebody 10ft in the air gets a pat on the back at ht and cheers from the watching parents and held up as an example ....until you get rid of that culture nothing will change
As for Stoke fans moaning ...they are too obsessed with getting stuck in and tracking back so I don’t think many on here can complain about the standard of English football as if you come in here every day they don’t want an Alan Hudson they want a Jon Walters
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Post by Gods on Sept 7, 2018 18:16:06 GMT
I think just the raw level of athleticism of the opposition you are now up against makes it difficult to waltz through a defence and so 'star' like you once could.
Even Ronaldo and Messi struggle.
Watch the 66 World Cup Final back, there is space the size of an airfield all over the pitch.
I don't think coaching has anythig to do with it. Things have just moved on.
Everything happens at the margins now, you are looking for miniscule gains in the preparation and on the pitch.
The days when George Best could waltz past 5 players have long gone. It's no longer possible.
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 7, 2018 18:18:33 GMT
www.bbc.com/sport/football/45384797the likes of Gazza, Hudson, Currie, Hoddle, Bowles, Marsh, Worthington, Cunningham, Waddle, Barnes we just don't produce the likes of these anymore. It's been eliminated through our coaching techniques. At one time it seemed like every club had got one! This is not just nostalgia, its a disease with English football and coaching. At Stoke we have got a manager now who doesn't trust Baeur , Bojan etc because they are liable to make the odd mistake. Just like TPO didn't trust Tuncay etc. We don't happen to have an English player like these, and neither do many other clubs. I know some people will dismiss it because they think it's Waddle whining on again...but if you look beyond the personality, the point is very important for English football. We got to a semi-final with hard work and organisation but it's just not enough in the end! Why throw in Bauer? The manager doesn't rate him defensively, nothing to do with anything else. I suppose I was thinking about players who take risks though he is obviously not in the same league as the others mentioned.
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 7, 2018 18:30:10 GMT
I think just the raw level of athleticism of the opposition you are now up against makes it difficult to waltz through a defence and so 'star' like you once could. Even Ronaldo and Messi struggle. Watch the 66 World Cup Final back, there is space the size of an airfield all over the pitch. I don't think coaching has anythig to do with it. Things have just moved on. Everything happens at the margins now, you are looking for miniscule gains in the preparation and on the pitch. The days when George Best could waltz past 5 players have long gone. It's no longer possible. Yet we are living in the time of Lionel Messi...
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 7, 2018 18:30:44 GMT
Same with Rooney. When he was at Everton all he wanted to do was go at/get past players using his skill, strength and dogged determination with players bouncing off him. As soon as he went to Man Utd. all of that was coached out of him. Don't get me wrong, he was still damn good for years at Man Utd. but i'd much rather have seen that exciting, bullish Rooney with an abundance of skills for England than the one we ended up with. Top scorer yes,but i still think he'd have got more if he'd been the Everton Rooney though. Even Owen to an extent
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Post by greyman on Sept 7, 2018 18:34:12 GMT
Where's Duncan McKenzie?
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Post by ct1 on Sept 7, 2018 18:39:56 GMT
apparently after dinner speaking and some radio work
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2018 19:11:46 GMT
I stopped reading the article after this little beauty....
"When I was playing with England we always had a wide selection of players that could influence a game."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2018 19:22:15 GMT
Is it a fair assumption to say a lot of those lads came from council estates and working class families, by and large?
Is it also fair to say that the working class are now finding football less and less accessible, but not totally out of reach in some cases?
For example, and this is only a small part of it, but how many young kids on those estates are not being inspired by having no access to live football, or even football on TV due to Sky TV and their pricing?
When I were a lad 😁 there was live football on TV every other week. As a young lad, you'd watch football and take that straight out into the street, take it to training of a weekend. It made you want to play and copy those players.
Similar to Wimbledon and tennis. Try and get a tennis court at the Westlands in July and you can't. In May you could walk on and have your choice.
Ditto down the snooker club in April. Can't get a table because the World's are on TV.
Is that a fair point? Are there less lads with that type of character because they are from different demographics these days?
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Post by numpty40 on Sept 7, 2018 19:31:08 GMT
We've been obsessed with outstanding flair players tracking back for a good few years now.
You only have to look at the shit the likes of Shaq, Arnie and Bojan have taken at Stoke over the past few recent years.
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Post by Davef on Sept 7, 2018 19:35:30 GMT
Even when we did produce these flair players we didn't use them much anyway.
Hudson, Currie, Marsh, Bowles and Worthington won less than 50 caps between them.
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Post by brinsleymaclagan on Sept 7, 2018 19:39:51 GMT
The biggest, strongest lads are picked for school teams and youth teams, the “footballers” are discouraged and move onto other pursuits. “Getting stuck in” “tracking back” and defensive formations are then drilled into the remaining players and any natural talent is suppressed. It’s been going on for years, and we’re now reaping the “rewards”!
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Post by lordb on Sept 7, 2018 20:56:41 GMT
Can only say whenever I have seen any kids football I have seen the exact opposite of what so many are saying. Kids encouraged to 'play' whilst screaming parents are advised to keep a lid on it.
Simply don't buy the stereotype, sorry.
For me the reason we don't produce 'street' footballers anymore is because kids don't play on the street,or outside anywhere hardly at all at least not on the almost daily spontaneous basis that we all did.
Coaching or no coaching isn't going to change that.
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Post by chamberlain on Sept 7, 2018 21:46:36 GMT
He was a proper footballer
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Post by Northy on Sept 7, 2018 22:09:55 GMT
We don’t produce anymore Hudson’s or Curries because even at schoolboys football we have this obsession with “getting stuck in” or telling 8 year olds to “be strong” Walk around any Sunday morning pitches and you’ll see it....the lad who puts his foot on it and finds a pass gets no recognition whilst the lad who puts somebody 10ft in the air gets a pat on the back at ht and cheers from the watching parents and held up as an example ....until you get rid of that culture nothing will change As for Stoke fans moaning ...they are too obsessed with getting stuck in and tracking back so I don’t think many on here can complain about the standard of English football as if you come in here every day they don’t want an Alan Hudson they want a Jon Walters I helped and watched a young lad from aged 7 who was excellent in midfield, the one who could put a foot on the ball and pick a pass, could drift past players and also had a great shot on him, all the big North west club's were after him but his dad wouldn't let him go, wanted him to play normal junior football, and swim for the town team, had a Stoke scout contact me regularly to try and watch with a view to sign him. His dad eventually let him sign for Crewe at u13 age, he's now described on their U18 website as a defender who can play further forward !
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Post by kidcrewbob on Sept 7, 2018 22:10:25 GMT
www.bbc.com/sport/football/45384797the likes of Gazza, Hudson, Currie, Hoddle, Bowles, Marsh, Worthington, Cunningham, Waddle, Barnes we just don't produce the likes of these anymore. It's been eliminated through our coaching techniques. At one time it seemed like every club had got one! This is not just nostalgia, its a disease with English football and coaching. At Stoke we have got a manager now who doesn't trust Baeur , Bojan etc because they are liable to make the odd mistake. Just like TPO didn't trust Tuncay etc. We don't happen to have an English player like these, and neither do many other clubs. I know some people will dismiss it because they think it's Waddle whining on again...but if you look beyond the personality, the point is very important for English football. We got to a semi-final with hard work and organisation but it's just not enough in the end! Why throw in Bauer? The manager doesn't rate him defensively, nothing to do with anything else. The manager couldn't find his arse with both hands - complete novice
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Post by Gods on Sept 7, 2018 22:23:14 GMT
Even when we did produce these flair players we didn't use them much anyway. Hudson, Currie, Marsh, Bowles and Worthington won less than 50 caps between them. That's a great point. They are the players we remember but hardly an England cap between them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2018 22:35:35 GMT
Is it a fair assumption to say a lot of those lads came from council estates and working class families, by and large? Is it also fair to say that the working class are now finding football less and less accessible, but not totally out of reach in some cases? For example, and this is only a small part of it, but how many young kids on those estates are not being inspired by having no access to live football, or even football on TV due to Sky TV and their pricing? When I were a lad 😁 there was live football on TV every other week. As a young lad, you'd watch football and take that straight out into the street, take it to training of a weekend. It made you want to play and copy those players. Similar to Wimbledon and tennis. Try and get a tennis court at the Westlands in July and you can't. In May you could walk on and have your choice. Ditto down the snooker club in April. Can't get a table because the World's are on TV. Is that a fair point? Are there less lads with that type of character because they are from different demographics these days? My Son and Grandson have no interest what so ever in football. I blame their school and McDonalds.
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 7, 2018 22:39:36 GMT
Even when we did produce these flair players we didn't use them much anyway. Hudson, Currie, Marsh, Bowles and Worthington won less than 50 caps between them. Apart from Hudson none of the mavericks made much impression for England. Because apart from Hudson none of them were actually good enough to do so. They looked classy in the league but at international level different things are required and despite the rich talent English football used to belittle the notion of adaptability. The early to mid 70s was the start of English players getting left behind and the insularity of the game exacerbated the decline.
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Post by Gods on Sept 7, 2018 23:02:58 GMT
Even when we did produce these flair players we didn't use them much anyway. Hudson, Currie, Marsh, Bowles and Worthington won less than 50 caps between them. Apart from Hudson none of the mavericks made much impression for England. Because apart from Hudson none of them were actually good enough to do so. They looked classy in the league but at international level different things are required and despite the rich talent English football used to belittle the notion of adaptability. The early to mid 70s was the start of English players getting left behind and the insularity of the game exacerbated the decline. Even the genius that was Alan Hudson only got 2 England caps. Played a blinder in the 2-0 defeat of world cup winners West Germany and in the 5-0 win over Cyprus shortly afterwards and that was his lot.
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Post by rawli on Sept 7, 2018 23:20:08 GMT
Struggling to clear Minis now they are much bigger.
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 7, 2018 23:52:29 GMT
Even when we did produce these flair players we didn't use them much anyway. Hudson, Currie, Marsh, Bowles and Worthington won less than 50 caps between them. That's a great point. They are the players we remember but hardly an England cap between them. That's true, but at least they existed. Having said that you have been a bit selective Gazza on 57 caps, Hoddle won 53, It's true Currie won just 17, Marsh 9, Le Tissier 8, Worthington 8, Bowles 5. Though with fewer substitutions caps weren't so freely handed out then either. I'm convinced that football has moved on to the extent that skilled, flair players who don't run around like headless chickens are redundant. As one example, look how Italy have declined since Pirlo retired.
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 8, 2018 1:14:59 GMT
Apart from Hudson none of the mavericks made much impression for England. Because apart from Hudson none of them were actually good enough to do so. They looked classy in the league but at international level different things are required and despite the rich talent English football used to belittle the notion of adaptability. The early to mid 70s was the start of English players getting left behind and the insularity of the game exacerbated the decline. Even the genius that was Alan Hudson only got 2 England caps. Played a blinder in the 2-0 defeat of world cup winners West Germany and in the 5-0 win over Cyprus shortly afterwards and that was his lot. Hudson is the only one of the mavericks to really shine for England. He should've got more caps BUT remember, twice he refused to play for England so limit any sympathy.
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sifta
Youth Player
Posts: 449
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Post by sifta on Sept 8, 2018 1:58:56 GMT
Even when we did produce these flair players we didn't use them much anyway. Hudson, Currie, Marsh, Bowles and Worthington won less than 50 caps between them. Apart from Hudson none of the mavericks made much impression for England. Because apart from Hudson none of them were actually good enough to do so. They looked classy in the league but at international level different things are required and despite the rich talent English football used to belittle the notion of adaptability. The early to mid 70s was the start of English players getting left behind and the insularity of the game exacerbated the decline. I agree,
Hudson apart these were players that could light up a game, and have you walking home thinking that you'd just watched a world beater in action, but the same could be said of dozens of players over the years, Steve McManaman, Paul Walsh. Peter Barnes, Mark Walters, Alan Devonshire, Duncan McKenzie, even Chamberlain. These weren't ignored great talent, they were players that could be fantastic on their day, but their day wasn't often enough. There was good reason that they couldn't keep the likes of Keegan, Brooking, Barnes (John), and Francis out of the England team, that's because Brooking, Keegan, Barnes and Francis were better.
(To be honest my argument falls apart when trying to justify the presence of Paul Mariner, and David Johnson in the England team though )
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 8, 2018 6:13:59 GMT
Apart from Hudson none of the mavericks made much impression for England. Because apart from Hudson none of them were actually good enough to do so. They looked classy in the league but at international level different things are required and despite the rich talent English football used to belittle the notion of adaptability. The early to mid 70s was the start of English players getting left behind and the insularity of the game exacerbated the decline. I agree,
Hudson apart these were players that could light up a game, and have you walking home thinking that you'd just watched a world beater in action, but the same could be said of dozens of players over the years, Steve McManaman, Paul Walsh. Peter Barnes, Mark Walters, Alan Devonshire, Duncan McKenzie, even Chamberlain. These weren't ignored great talent, they were players that could be fantastic on their day, but their day wasn't often enough. There was good reason that they couldn't keep the likes of Keegan, Brooking, Barnes (John), and Francis out of the England team, that's because Brooking, Keegan, Barnes and Francis were better.
(To be honest my argument falls apart when trying to justify the presence of Paul Mariner, and David Johnson in the England team though ) Mariner scored 13 goals in 35 games for England which isn't too bad really. Also, remember the magnificent Brazil team of 1982 had Serginho up front!
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