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Post by followyoudown on Aug 26, 2018 20:44:11 GMT
We dont pay subsidies, these firms pay franchise fees to get the contract on top of this they then pay track access and station access fees. You want train prices to go down stop the government charging these companies so much but then the shortfall has to be made back via higher taxation on everyone else, I'm quite happy if you want the lad in tescos on minimum wage to pay more to allow me to get into London cheaper to charge my exhorbiant contractor rates but thats not really fair. Just like cars the burden of tax should fall on those who use it the most. You can call subsidies all the fancy names you want to fyd but they're still subsidies. Momo you realise the train companies pay the government this money for franchise fees, track access charges and station access charges the later two go towards the cost of running the network. So this subsidy care to point out where it is ?
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 26, 2018 21:01:03 GMT
Now more people go but they can came away with 50k or more student debt but they only pay back once they earn a certain amount at pretty low rates, I think once you earn above £30k a year, deductions are less than £100 a month. Wow, £50.000 is a lot of money. If it had been me, I think I would have worked a few years and saved as much as I could before studying at the University then. If you go 4 years here and take maximum loans (for your normal living costs), you will have a debt of about £21.600 after the 4 years. But as I said, usually there are no tuition fees to pay. Some exceptions exist. When it comes to repay plans it has got a lot worse in recent years, a lot! When I studied most of the time I had the old kind of loans. They used a kind of index year by year, like a very low interest. Then came a new kind of loan during a short period of time, with a kind of interest. The third and now the only existing type of loan at the University is an expensive one, with high interest AND you have to pay every year even if you're not having any income AT ALL whatsoever. This has been disastrous to many poor students who haven't been able to find a job after the exams. Myself have to pay back to all 3 loan systems, but luckily my largest part is to the oldest index loan system. And if you earn less than £12.800 per year, you don't have to pay back anything that particular year. The maximum number of years you can avoid paying back is 10 though. Then you have to pay back, even with no income - even with that old loan index system. If you could save the £50k in the uk you'd probably be better buying a house where you were going to university, rent and mortgage are not massively different and at the end of the course you have an asset to sell. Swedish seems fairer on some bits but unfairer on others, uk repayment is £25k threshold and it gets written off after 25 or 30 years depending on when you took it out regardless. It's not fair and I would be happy as someone who thought it was the end of the world to have a £200 overdraft on leaving uni if they taxed people who got it free like me a bit more. The basic principle is correct that those who earn the most after uni payback more of their loans. The problem in the uk is that for many years governments of all parties encouraged kids to do mostly useless studies like marketing, life and earth studies, media studies and economics, just kidding momo to keep them out of unemployment figures, so they basically had 3 years of getting pissed. Everyone knew it was unsustainable but no one wanted to do anything as there are no votes in telling people they have to pay more so just like state retirement age and many other things nothing was done until it was too late......
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 27, 2018 0:18:09 GMT
Private firms running the trains paid out at least £165m in dividends to their shareholders last year, when overall taxpayer subsidy to the rail industry reached £3.5bn.
Good old Capitalism. Hip Hip hurray....... and so on
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 27, 2018 1:28:13 GMT
Private firms running the trains paid out at least £165m in dividends to their shareholders last year, when overall taxpayer subsidy to the rail industry reached £3.5bn. Good old Capitalism. Hip Hip hurray....... and so on Capitalism is definitely the worst system used to run a country ,,,,, except for all the alternatives
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 27, 2018 6:24:15 GMT
Private firms running the trains paid out at least £165m in dividends to their shareholders last year, when overall taxpayer subsidy to the rail industry reached £3.5bn. Good old Capitalism. Hip Hip hurray....... and so on Capitalism is definitely the worst system used to run a country ,,,,, except for all the alternatives Indeed. While Momo barks at the moon imagining a socialist utopia, the world at large has moved on from socialism realising that the reality of that system is dystopia as predicted by Orwell and others and as realised in any if the nations unfortunate enough to have gone down that path. This article articulates why Socialism is dead. It's well worth a read because the writer nails it: Socialism is founded on a paradox, which when realized, makes clear not only why it does not work, but why it cannot work.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 27, 2018 7:27:34 GMT
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 27, 2018 9:40:50 GMT
Private firms running the trains paid out at least £165m in dividends to their shareholders last year, when overall taxpayer subsidy to the rail industry reached £3.5bn. Good old Capitalism. Hip Hip hurray....... and so on 165m on turnover of many billion is actually a very small return, nationalise and that all just goes to the unions. The subsidy figure is deliberately misleading including things like crossrail, its like say the government subsidises road usage by treating victims of accidents.
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 27, 2018 12:33:12 GMT
Private firms running the trains paid out at least £165m in dividends to their shareholders last year, when overall taxpayer subsidy to the rail industry reached £3.5bn. Good old Capitalism. Hip Hip hurray....... and so on 165m on turnover of many billion is actually a very small return, nationalise and that all just goes to the unions. What unions, it's not the 1970's. Managers consistently blaming their work force instead of looking to their own failings. Mismanagement was as greater problem in the 80's as unionism, but nought done about it. Anyway, back to Venezuela. Hugo Chávez was a huge figure to follow & it's a great shame what's happened to his legacy. 🇻🇪
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 27, 2018 13:45:22 GMT
165m on turnover of many billion is actually a very small return, nationalise and that all just goes to the unions. What unions, it's not the 1970's. Managers consistently blaming their work force instead of looking to their own failings. Mismanagement was as greater problem in the 80's as unionism, but nought done about it. Anyway, back to Venezuela. Hugo Chávez was a huge figure to follow & it's a great shame what's happened to his legacy. 🇻🇪 The treatment of unions is symptomatic of how capitalism fixes the deck. There is a higher democratic onus in unions to secure legal industrial action than there is to elect the Government of the day. The system is corrupt.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 27, 2018 14:46:44 GMT
Private firms running the trains paid out at least £165m in dividends to their shareholders last year, when overall taxpayer subsidy to the rail industry reached £3.5bn. Good old Capitalism. Hip Hip hurray....... and so on Capitalism is definitely the worst system used to run a country ,,,,, except for all the alternatives Isn't that what Winston Churchill said? 'The Market Economy is the worst possible economic system..apart from all the others' Although there's no such thing as a 'market-economy' all economies are a mixture of private and public. To what extent is determined by the Political System' In that sense Marx was right.."The Economic system in any country is determined by the Political system" Correct.
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 27, 2018 14:59:47 GMT
Capitalism is definitely the worst system used to run a country ,,,,, except for all the alternatives Isn't that what Winston Churchill said? 'The Market Economy is the worst possible economic system..apart from all the others' Although there's no such thing as a 'market-economy' all economies are a mixture of private and public. To what extent is determined by the Political System' In that sense Marx was right.."The Economic system in any country is determined by the Political system" Correct. I think he said it about democracy but I've used the pretext anyway . Your last statement about the mixture of politics and economics is the reasons most economy's are poorly run . The economy of a country shouldn't be dependent on the political doctrine of the ruling party .
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Post by trentvale68 on Aug 27, 2018 15:10:30 GMT
It always seems to be extremes of left and right; would be great to have a sensible,centrist government that rewards hard work but doesn't fuck the genuinely vulnerable folks over.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 27, 2018 15:25:17 GMT
Isn't that what Winston Churchill said? 'The Market Economy is the worst possible economic system..apart from all the others' Although there's no such thing as a 'market-economy' all economies are a mixture of private and public. To what extent is determined by the Political System' In that sense Marx was right.."The Economic system in any country is determined by the Political system" Correct. I think he said it about democracy but I've used the pretext anyway . Your last statement about the mixture of politics and economics is the reasons most economy's are poorly run . The economy of a country shouldn't be dependent on the political doctrine of the ruling party . [/quo I agree. But that's the price we pay for living in a democracy. People have the choice to vote for whichever political party they wish at every general election. And that means a different political ideaology every 4 or 5 years UNLESS we had the same Political Party in power ad-infinitum. We wouldn't be living in a democracy then but a one party state..which many 'Socialist' countries become..rotten one party states.
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 27, 2018 15:57:26 GMT
I think he said it about democracy but I've used the pretext anyway . Your last statement about the mixture of politics and economics is the reasons most economy's are poorly run . The economy of a country shouldn't be dependent on the political doctrine of the ruling party . [/quo I agree. But that's the price we pay for living in a democracy. People have the choice to vote for whichever political party they wish at every general election. And that means a different political ideaology every 4 or 5 years UNLESS we had the same Political Party in power ad-infinitum. We wouldn't be living in a democracy then but a one party state..which many 'Socialist' countries become..rotten one party states. I'm only saying that politics really shouldn't play any part in the economic policy or should I say the wealth creation side of the economy. Governments of whatever colour will decide how they spend the income . But I've never voted labour , not because I necessarily disagree with their policies I just don't agree with the economic policies they always pursue. They are in denial about the need to create wealth as if it's a dirty word
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 27, 2018 16:13:31 GMT
It always seems to be extremes of left and right; would be great to have a sensible,centrist government that rewards hard work but doesn't fuck the genuinely vulnerable folks over. I would settle for a degree of competence at the moment .
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 27, 2018 16:32:53 GMT
I'm only saying that politics really shouldn't play any part in the economic policy or should I say the wealth creation side of the economy. Governments of whatever colour will decide how they spend the income . But I've never voted labour , not because I necessarily disagree with their policies I just don't agree with the economic policies they always pursue. They are in denial about the need to create wealth as if it's a dirty word I think we'd both agree that we need to create wealth. What we might disagree on is how we do this. That is ultimately a political decision. One that we make at the ballot box every 4 or 5 years. (And just for the record I've voted for Labour & Conservative Parties)
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 27, 2018 19:52:44 GMT
I think we'd both agree that we need to create wealth. What we might disagree on is how we do this. That is ultimately a political decision. One that we make at the ballot box every 4 or 5 years. (And jusat for the record I've voted for Labour & Conservative Parties) It shouldn't be a political decision though should it , we lurch from one ideology to another in this country , the most successful economies for instance Germany follow a clear economic strategy regardless who is in power
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 27, 2018 20:00:21 GMT
It shouldn't be a political decision though should it , we lurch from one ideology to another in this country , the most successful economies for instance Germany follow a clear economic strategy regardless who is in power I agree but that will only happen if we change the voting system from adversarial to coalition led. A bit like Germany & Japan. Long term investment strategy. Industrial Bank.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 6:36:47 GMT
It's frustrating that all these socialists are in full support of the EU who surely have as much, if not more capitalist views and are very much against nationalizing industries.
I have no love for the conservatives but labours support of us staying in the eu seems more about their hatred for the tories (cbildlike)
I'd vote for a socialist government (not new Labour) in a heartbeat if they had a strong looking, longterm plan of building a better Britain ...... that will never be accomplished inside the eu vice So they can fuck right off!
Corbyn's clan couldn't run a kids breakfast club.....future Doesn't look bright either, as new, up and coming youngsters from uni seem to be following in the last lots footsteps
I'm in my 50's now and every gov I've voted for has let me down.....ignore the fuckers now and enjoy what life they allow you...it soon goes by
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 28, 2018 8:20:18 GMT
It's frustrating that all these socialists are in full support of the EU who surely have as much, if not more capitalist views and are very much against nationalizing industries. I have no love for the conservatives but labours support of us staying in the eu seems more about their hatred for the tories (cbildlike) I'd vote for a socialist government (not new Labour) in a heartbeat if they had a strong looking, longterm plan of building a better Britain ...... that will never be accomplished inside the eu vice So they can fuck right off! Corbyn's clan couldn't run a kids breakfast club.....future Doesn't look bright either, as new, up and coming youngsters from uni seem to be following in the last lots footsteps I'm in my 50's now and every gov I've voted for has let me down.....ignore the fuckers now and enjoy what life they allow you, it soon goes by If there was a general election tomorrow or in 6 months or 12 months..we'd end up with the same result..a hung parliament. Not enough people would vote Conservative to give them an overall majority and not enough people trust Labour to give them one. I can see stalemate for years ahead...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 8:29:51 GMT
It's frustrating that all these socialists are in full support of the EU who surely have as much, if not more capitalist views and are very much against nationalizing industries. I have no love for the conservatives but labours support of us staying in the eu seems more about their hatred for the tories (cbildlike) I'd vote for a socialist government (not new Labour) in a heartbeat if they had a strong looking, longterm plan of building a better Britain ...... that will never be accomplished inside the eu vice So they can fuck right off! Corbyn's clan couldn't run a kids breakfast club.....future Doesn't look bright either, as new, up and coming youngsters from uni seem to be following in the last lots footsteps I'm in my 50's now and every gov I've voted for has let me down.....ignore the fuckers now and enjoy what life they allow you, it soon goes by If there was a general election tomorrow or in 6 months or 12 months..we'd end up with the same result..a hung parliament. Not enough people would vote Conservative to give them an overall majority and not enough people trust Labour to give them one. I can see stalemate for years ahead... Possibly wizz. What I do know is history tells us that not only my lifetime but all my family say similar to me....things don't get better. This only tells me that the whole system is there for them to manipulate your vote
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 3, 2018 9:26:04 GMT
How Capitalism really works
The explotaton of the many for the benefit of the few.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 9:36:32 GMT
How Capitalism really works The explotaton of the many for the benefit of the few. Capitalism could work but it doesn't Same as socialism could but doesnt All down to greed corporatism is the cancer we should be pointing the finger at
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Post by partickpotter on Sept 3, 2018 16:43:46 GMT
How Capitalism really works The explotaton of the many for the benefit of the few. Capitalism could work but it doesn't Same as socialism could but doesnt All down to greed corporatism is the cancer we should be pointing the finger at No doubt that capitalism has massive faults. The thing is socialism is even worse primarily because, as noted earlier in this thread, it removes any possibility of checks and balances between the economy and government that the capitalist system allows for. So for now, until someone comes up with a better system (seeing as socialism/communism failed in all its guises) we're stuck with capitalism as the least worst system.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 16:57:14 GMT
Capitalism could work but it doesn't Same as socialism could but doesnt All down to greed corporatism is the cancer we should be pointing the finger at No doubt that capitalism has massive faults. The thing is socialism is even worse primarily because, as noted earlier in this thread, it removes any possibility of checks and balances between the economy and government that the capitalist system allows for. So for now, until someone comes up with a better system (seeing as socialism/communism failed in all its guises) we're stuck with capitalism as the least worst system. For me it's all a bit like religion Capitolism, socialism...Created to control the masses only for greed, by a select few
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Post by trickydicky73 on Sept 5, 2018 5:03:02 GMT
What unions, it's not the 1970's. Managers consistently blaming their work force instead of looking to their own failings. Mismanagement was as greater problem in the 80's as unionism, but nought done about it. Anyway, back to Venezuela. Hugo Chávez was a huge figure to follow & it's a great shame what's happened to his legacy. 🇻🇪 The treatment of unions is symptomatic of how capitalism fixes the deck. There is a higher democratic onus in unions to secure legal industrial action than there is to elect the Government of the day. The system is corrupt. It is, but so are unions, councils etc. It's human nature to look after oneself.
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 5, 2018 7:49:07 GMT
This thread lurches more than the Adams Family...
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2018 8:38:37 GMT
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Post by metalhead on Sept 5, 2018 9:30:44 GMT
Buzzing his tits off isn't he? In most jobs, mine included, such a monumental fuck up might not only ruin your employment at your current place of work, but actually destroy your career. No 1.7 million pay outs for the normal guy, just word of mouth as people say how "that guy" failed or made a huge error. Alright for some I suppose.
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 5, 2018 12:51:03 GMT
See Justin Welbey is asking for greater taxation in support of a redistribution of wealth. We’ve gone so far down the of the demonisation of taxation that it’s become a dirty word. If people make great wealth from the infrastructures of society & our of the pockets/off the backs of those who live in it, why shouldn’t they pay for the privilege of amassing a fortune.
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