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Post by redstriper on Aug 22, 2018 12:08:13 GMT
venezuelaA good read but shocking. A country rich in natural resources brought to its knees by a idealogy and incompetence. In just 19 years.
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Post by felonious on Aug 22, 2018 12:46:15 GMT
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Post by metalhead on Aug 22, 2018 14:05:08 GMT
Venezuela really is a horrible example of socialism..... which is why when the Guardian champion socialism as the solution, they often leave Venezuela out of the article. The human rights violations that are continuing to this day in Venezuela are truly despicable, but there we go, they're ultra left wing so it's all for the greater good.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 14:17:37 GMT
There's your difference, the ideal of socialism is based on fairness and sharing of unavoidable burdens between all. The NHS is a great example of it working. Venezuela is an example of arseholes using the guise of socialism to keep themselves rich. See Stalin and 'communism'.
Honestly, for me, the idea of paying higher taxes in order to have better public services and infrastructure has almost no downside. I don't get why so many campaign for lower taxes, when all it tends to mean is more income spent on privatised industry. See the USA and the ridiculous money their people spend on healthcare.
As with everything, there's a nuance to it, but too many people are insanely focused on GDP and specifics of the economy. See Scandinavia, Sweden have a higher spend as a percentage of GDP on healthcare, on education, and overall. They're top 10 in happiest people, which surely is the most important measure. the top 4 are all Scandinavian countries, with 'very' high public spending and higher tax rates. The USA, with very low public spending, and lower taxes, is 18th in happiness. Which, considering how much money it has, is utter shite.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 22, 2018 16:57:32 GMT
There's your difference, the ideal of socialism is based on fairness and sharing of unavoidable burdens between all. The NHS is a great example of it working. Venezuela is an example of arseholes using the guise of socialism to keep themselves rich. See Stalin and 'communism'. Honestly, for me, the idea of paying higher taxes in order to have better public services and infrastructure has almost no downside. I don't get why so many campaign for lower taxes, when all it tends to mean is more income spent on privatised industry. See the USA and the ridiculous money their people spend on healthcare. As with everything, there's a nuance to it, but too many people are insanely focused on GDP and specifics of the economy. See Scandinavia, Sweden have a higher spend as a percentage of GDP on healthcare, on education, and overall. They're top 10 in happiest people, which surely is the most important measure. the top 4 are all Scandinavian countries, with 'very' high public spending and higher tax rates. The USA, with very low public spending, and lower taxes, is 18th in happiness. Which, considering how much money it has, is utter shite. The NHS is a fucking shambolic wasteful inefficient mess. I guess in that regard it is indeed a good example of socialism in action.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Aug 22, 2018 17:51:36 GMT
There's your difference, the ideal of socialism is based on fairness and sharing of unavoidable burdens between all. The NHS is a great example of it working. Venezuela is an example of arseholes using the guise of socialism to keep themselves rich. See Stalin and 'communism'. Honestly, for me, the idea of paying higher taxes in order to have better public services and infrastructure has almost no downside. I don't get why so many campaign for lower taxes, when all it tends to mean is more income spent on privatised industry. See the USA and the ridiculous money their people spend on healthcare. As with everything, there's a nuance to it, but too many people are insanely focused on GDP and specifics of the economy. See Scandinavia, Sweden have a higher spend as a percentage of GDP on healthcare, on education, and overall. They're top 10 in happiest people, which surely is the most important measure. the top 4 are all Scandinavian countries, with 'very' high public spending and higher tax rates. The USA, with very low public spending, and lower taxes, is 18th in happiness. Which, considering how much money it has, is utter shite. The NHS is a fucking shambolic wasteful inefficient mess. I guess in that regard it is indeed a good example of socialism in action. The daughter of a colleague of mine is a junior doctor and doing her 4 month stint as a GP. She hates it and is already decided she won't go down that route once she's trained. The reasons she gives is that despite her Indian heritage she only speaks English and some patients make the assumption that she'll speak on their language, making a fuss when she doesn't. The other is the amount of people who demand a £7 minimum charge prescription for minor medication e.g. paracetamol and refuse to buy it themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 17:54:58 GMT
There's your difference, the ideal of socialism is based on fairness and sharing of unavoidable burdens between all. The NHS is a great example of it working. Venezuela is an example of arseholes using the guise of socialism to keep themselves rich. See Stalin and 'communism'. Honestly, for me, the idea of paying higher taxes in order to have better public services and infrastructure has almost no downside. I don't get why so many campaign for lower taxes, when all it tends to mean is more income spent on privatised industry. See the USA and the ridiculous money their people spend on healthcare. As with everything, there's a nuance to it, but too many people are insanely focused on GDP and specifics of the economy. See Scandinavia, Sweden have a higher spend as a percentage of GDP on healthcare, on education, and overall. They're top 10 in happiest people, which surely is the most important measure. the top 4 are all Scandinavian countries, with 'very' high public spending and higher tax rates. The USA, with very low public spending, and lower taxes, is 18th in happiness. Which, considering how much money it has, is utter shite. The NHS is a fucking shambolic wasteful inefficient mess. I guess in that regard it is indeed a good example of socialism in action. That means that people don't die because they can't afford healthcare. It's inefficiencies are due to idiocy in government and recently a lack of funding, again, from govt. Medicine and healthcare should never ever be anything other than free. Look at the US, there's an example of privatising the health of people for profit.
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 22, 2018 18:22:18 GMT
There's your difference, the ideal of socialism is based on fairness and sharing of unavoidable burdens between all. The NHS is a great example of it working. Venezuela is an example of arseholes using the guise of socialism to keep themselves rich. See Stalin and 'communism'. Honestly, for me, the idea of paying higher taxes in order to have better public services and infrastructure has almost no downside. I don't get why so many campaign for lower taxes, when all it tends to mean is more income spent on privatised industry. See the USA and the ridiculous money their people spend on healthcare. As with everything, there's a nuance to it, but too many people are insanely focused on GDP and specifics of the economy. See Scandinavia, Sweden have a higher spend as a percentage of GDP on healthcare, on education, and overall. They're top 10 in happiest people, which surely is the most important measure. the top 4 are all Scandinavian countries, with 'very' high public spending and higher tax rates. The USA, with very low public spending, and lower taxes, is 18th in happiness. Which, considering how much money it has, is utter shite. The NHS is a fucking shambolic wasteful inefficient mess. I guess in that regard it is indeed a good example of socialism in action. It may be, but would you rather turn up at A&E in the middle of the night with a baby who is struggling to breathe and be refused admittance until you sign a legal "promise to pay" contract where the amount is left blank? Or to be invoiced 600 quid for a 15-minute non-essential journey in an ambulance to be transferred from a hospital where they had no beds? Or see people break down in tears immediately after a bad injury, not because of the pain but because of the financial burden they know is coming to their family? I've lived under both systems and I know which I prefer.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 22, 2018 18:29:51 GMT
The NHS is a fucking shambolic wasteful inefficient mess. I guess in that regard it is indeed a good example of socialism in action. It may be, but would you rather turn up at A&E in the middle of the night with a baby who is struggling to breathe and be refused admittance until you sign a legal "promise to pay" contract where the amount is left blank? Or to be invoiced 600 quid for a 15-minute non-essential journey in an ambulance to be transferred from a hospital where they had no beds? Or see people break down in tears immediately after a bad injury, not because of the pain but because of the financial burden they know is coming to their family? I've lived under both systems and I know which I prefer. Maybe we could try another approach - like they do in Germany or Sweden for example. The US isn't the only example. The thing is - if the NHS was any good, other countries would have copied it. But none, nada, zero have. That should tell you something. It's become a pseudo-religion in this country whereas in fact it is a croc of shite. We all deserve better. Much better.
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 22, 2018 18:36:06 GMT
It may be, but would you rather turn up at A&E in the middle of the night with a baby who is struggling to breathe and be refused admittance until you sign a legal "promise to pay" contract where the amount is left blank? Or to be invoiced 600 quid for a 15-minute non-essential journey in an ambulance to be transferred from a hospital where they had no beds? Or see people break down in tears immediately after a bad injury, not because of the pain but because of the financial burden they know is coming to their family? I've lived under both systems and I know which I prefer. Maybe we could try another approach - like they do in Germany or Sweden for example. The US isn't the only example. The thing is - if the NHS was any good, other countries would have copied it. But none, nada, zero have. That should tell you something. It's become a pseudo-religion in this country whereas in fact it is a croc of shite. We all deserve better. Much better. I wasn't on about the US.. I don't really know what you mean about nobody copying it, it depends what elements you're talking about. Plenty of countries have a healthcare system which is based on the principle of being universal and free at the point of usage. I'm a bit of a Socialist apostate generally but that is how health (and education) should be in any decent civilised society imo.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Aug 22, 2018 18:45:40 GMT
It may be, but would you rather turn up at A&E in the middle of the night with a baby who is struggling to breathe and be refused admittance until you sign a legal "promise to pay" contract where the amount is left blank? Or to be invoiced 600 quid for a 15-minute non-essential journey in an ambulance to be transferred from a hospital where they had no beds? Or see people break down in tears immediately after a bad injury, not because of the pain but because of the financial burden they know is coming to their family? I've lived under both systems and I know which I prefer. Maybe we could try another approach - like they do in Germany or Sweden for example. The US isn't the only example. The thing is - if the NHS was any good, other countries would have copied it. But none, nada, zero have. That should tell you something. It's become a pseudo-religion in this country whereas in fact it is a croc of shite. We all deserve better. Much better. Without turning this thread into just about the NHS. I've had the misfortune to make use of this service this year and the Royal Stoke Hospital is fucking shite. They are in my mind without a shadow of a doubt killing people there due to the absolute lack of anything approaching health care. Without going into all of the unbelievable things I saw/heard, the worst was one doctor complaining to another how they had left 1 child waiting for 4 hours in reception with suspected meningitis! And plenty of fools pretend it's the envy of the world. Laughable if it wasn't so serious.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Aug 22, 2018 18:47:26 GMT
There's your difference, the ideal of socialism is based on fairness and sharing of unavoidable burdens between all. The NHS is a great example of it working. Venezuela is an example of arseholes using the guise of socialism to keep themselves rich. See Stalin and 'communism'. Honestly, for me, the idea of paying higher taxes in order to have better public services and infrastructure has almost no downside. I don't get why so many campaign for lower taxes, when all it tends to mean is more income spent on privatised industry. See the USA and the ridiculous money their people spend on healthcare. As with everything, there's a nuance to it, but too many people are insanely focused on GDP and specifics of the economy. See Scandinavia, Sweden have a higher spend as a percentage of GDP on healthcare, on education, and overall. They're top 10 in happiest people, which surely is the most important measure. the top 4 are all Scandinavian countries, with 'very' high public spending and higher tax rates. The USA, with very low public spending, and lower taxes, is 18th in happiness. Which, considering how much money it has, is utter shite. Is there any study explaining that Scandinavia's apparent happiness is linked to their government?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 18:51:27 GMT
There's your difference, the ideal of socialism is based on fairness and sharing of unavoidable burdens between all. The NHS is a great example of it working. Venezuela is an example of arseholes using the guise of socialism to keep themselves rich. See Stalin and 'communism'. Honestly, for me, the idea of paying higher taxes in order to have better public services and infrastructure has almost no downside. I don't get why so many campaign for lower taxes, when all it tends to mean is more income spent on privatised industry. See the USA and the ridiculous money their people spend on healthcare. As with everything, there's a nuance to it, but too many people are insanely focused on GDP and specifics of the economy. See Scandinavia, Sweden have a higher spend as a percentage of GDP on healthcare, on education, and overall. They're top 10 in happiest people, which surely is the most important measure. the top 4 are all Scandinavian countries, with 'very' high public spending and higher tax rates. The USA, with very low public spending, and lower taxes, is 18th in happiness. Which, considering how much money it has, is utter shite. Is there any study explaining that Scandinavia's apparent happiness is linked to their government? Not particularly no, although i haven't really looked. But their public spending is all at a high level, and their GDPs aren't solely the highest. Ignoring famine, disease, war etc. the higher countries (with the exception of Switzerland) tend to be those with higher public spending and better national infrastructure. And just on the face of it, my opinion is that i'd rather be taxed directly for public spending than have to pay for stuff privately, which includes the companies making a profit.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Aug 22, 2018 18:56:31 GMT
Is there any study explaining that Scandinavia's apparent happiness is linked to their government? Not particularly no, although i haven't really looked. But their public spending is all at a high level, and their GDPs aren't solely the highest. Ignoring famine, disease, war etc. the higher countries (with the exception of Switzerland) tend to be those with higher public spending and better national infrastructure. Perhaps, or perhaps it's they don't get involved in wars, or the number of blonde haired women, or being able to undertake winter sports, who knows? As you've said in an earlier post on how badly our government run the NHS, I'm reluctant to give them another penny of my cash as to be perfectly honest they're not clever enough to run a chip shop (no offence to chip shop owners).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 19:00:51 GMT
Not particularly no, although i haven't really looked. But their public spending is all at a high level, and their GDPs aren't solely the highest. Ignoring famine, disease, war etc. the higher countries (with the exception of Switzerland) tend to be those with higher public spending and better national infrastructure. Perhaps, or perhaps it's they don't get involved in wars, or the number of blonde haired women, or being able to undertake winter sports, who knows? As you've said in an earlier post on how badly our government run the NHS, I'm reluctant to give them another penny of my cash as to be perfectly honest they're not clever enough to run a chip shop (no offence to chip shop owners). you can vote them out. And at the end of the day, if they don't work to help the people, they'll lose out. Companies work first and foremost for profit. I'd make plenty of changes to Govt. Ministers should have experience in their field, for example. But id rather be paying slightly higher taxes than paying through the nose for private healthcare etc.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Aug 22, 2018 19:04:39 GMT
Perhaps, or perhaps it's they don't get involved in wars, or the number of blonde haired women, or being able to undertake winter sports, who knows? As you've said in an earlier post on how badly our government run the NHS, I'm reluctant to give them another penny of my cash as to be perfectly honest they're not clever enough to run a chip shop (no offence to chip shop owners). you can vote them out. And at the end of the day, if they don't work to help the people, they'll lose out. Companies work first and foremost for profit. I'd make plenty of changes to Govt. Ministers should have experience in their field, for example. But id rather be paying slightly higher taxes than paying through the nose for private healthcare etc. With your new career you'll soon know more about government inefficiencies... Agree with you about ministers. And best of luck with the job.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 19:08:25 GMT
you can vote them out. And at the end of the day, if they don't work to help the people, they'll lose out. Companies work first and foremost for profit. I'd make plenty of changes to Govt. Ministers should have experience in their field, for example. But id rather be paying slightly higher taxes than paying through the nose for private healthcare etc. With your new career you'll soon know more about government inefficiencies... Agree with you about ministers. And best of luck with the job. No doubt. Luckily I'm a massive hypocrite and it's a private school Cheers pal.
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Post by felonious on Aug 22, 2018 21:55:31 GMT
Is there any study explaining that Scandinavia's apparent happiness is linked to their government? Not particularly no, although i haven't really looked. But their public spending is all at a high level, and their GDPs aren't solely the highest. Ignoring famine, disease, war etc. the higher countries (with the exception of Switzerland) tend to be those with higher public spending and better national infrastructure. And just on the face of it, my opinion is that i'd rather be taxed directly for public spending than have to pay for stuff privately, which includes the companies making a profit. Not all companies make a profit and taxation since New Labour is increasingly taken via employment taxation. Any serious increase in this will lead to unemployment rising and shorter hours. This government has further extracted from companies over their period in office. If a socialist government tries to increase taxation on individuals with the current levels of mortgage and credit card debt then it's going to put immense pressure on people.
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Post by musik on Aug 23, 2018 9:15:40 GMT
See Scandinavia, Sweden have a higher spend as a percentage of GDP on healthcare, on education, and overall. They're top 10 in happiest people, which surely is the most important measure. the top 4 are all Scandinavian countries, with 'very' high public spending and higher tax rates. Sep 9th. Swedish Election Day. We might sink from thereafter. Reports saying the rental costs for a flat could increase up to 100% where I live, if the "wrong" coalition win. A disaster in many ways for the whole society. Discussions: Since here is a huge excess demand for flats, we must increase the cost for renting a flat, they say. Then people won't as much demand to have a roof over their head somewhere.
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 23, 2018 9:58:07 GMT
venezuelaA good read but shocking. A country rich in natural resources brought to its knees by a idealogy and incompetence. In just 19 years. There are many countries that have exploited the resources of their sovereign nation under a the flag of capitalism. Saudi, Nigeria, Qatar... Thatcher spent the profits of BP on destroying the unions, reducing employment & paying dole. It was her economic ideology...
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Post by redstriper on Aug 23, 2018 10:01:18 GMT
venezuelaA good read but shocking. A country rich in natural resources brought to its knees by a idealogy and incompetence. In just 19 years. There are many countries that have exploited the resources of their sovereign nation under a the flag of capitalism. Saudi, Nigeria, Qatar... Thatcher spent the profits of BP on destroying the unions, reducing employment & paying dole. It was her economic ideology... Thatchers ideology left us with a strong economy. Socialism leads to economic ruin as illustarted here.
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 23, 2018 10:11:21 GMT
There are many countries that have exploited the resources of their sovereign nation under a the flag of capitalism. Saudi, Nigeria, Qatar... Thatcher spent the profits of BP on destroying the unions, reducing employment & paying dole. It was her economic ideology... Thatchers ideology left us with a strong economy. Socialism leads to economic ruin as illustarted here. Are you not aware of the devaluation of the £ under the Tories...
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Post by redstriper on Aug 23, 2018 10:21:54 GMT
My point is about socialism, it's a warning about where we would be if somehow got stuck with 19 years of Corbyn. Even the more centralist socialists of the past 30 years have struggled to manage the economy, Corbyn would be an absolute disaster.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 23, 2018 10:28:26 GMT
There are many countries that have exploited the resources of their sovereign nation under a the flag of capitalism. Saudi, Nigeria, Qatar... Thatcher spent the profits of BP on destroying the unions, reducing employment & paying dole. It was her economic ideology... Thatchers ideology left us with a strong economy. Socialism leads to economic ruin as illustarted here. Thatcherite pro deregulated financial economics results in "strong" economy that expands like a bubble, then bursts leading you back to square one. The UK has had 7 =>1% recessions since 1979. Compared to 3 in the 30 years pre Thatcher. Including the largest since the second world war. Caused exclusively by unregulated banking and terrible investment management. Both side effects of Thatcherism. Anyone thinking there weren't elements of Thatcherite economics in Blair's policies is deluding themselves too.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 23, 2018 11:15:20 GMT
There are many countries that have exploited the resources of their sovereign nation under a the flag of capitalism. Saudi, Nigeria, Qatar... Thatcher spent the profits of BP on destroying the unions, reducing employment & paying dole. It was her economic ideology... Thatchers ideology left us with a strong economy. Socialism leads to economic ruin as illustarted here. Thatcher's ideaology destroyed 30% of British Manufacturing, shut down the coal industry and destroyed the pottery industry putting nearly 4 million on the dole. EXACTLY the same policies The Tories used in the 1920s..massive cuts in spending alongside massive hikes in interest rates destroying millions of jobs. Some posters need to read their Economic & Social History. It isn't just Labour that fuck things up.
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Post by thevoid on Aug 23, 2018 11:52:10 GMT
Socialism- nice idea in theory, not so good in execution.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 11:54:09 GMT
My point is about socialism, it's a warning about where we would be if somehow got stuck with 19 years of Corbyn. Even the more centralist socialists of the past 30 years have struggled to manage the economy, Corbyn would be an absolute disaster. Have they? Any more so than any other country on earth struggles with their economy? Got to be worth trying over the shower of shit we have now. At least it's an attempt to be more fair.
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Post by st3mark on Aug 23, 2018 12:14:47 GMT
Venezuela really is a horrible example of socialism..... which is why when the Guardian champion socialism as the solution, they often leave Venezuela out of the article. The human rights violations that are continuing to this day in Venezuela are truly despicable, but there we go, they're ultra left wing so it's all for the greater good. Are there any non-horrible examples of socialism? The only successful example of it was the Nazi party and that didn’t end well for them in the end.
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Post by metalhead on Aug 23, 2018 12:19:42 GMT
Venezuela really is a horrible example of socialism..... which is why when the Guardian champion socialism as the solution, they often leave Venezuela out of the article. The human rights violations that are continuing to this day in Venezuela are truly despicable, but there we go, they're ultra left wing so it's all for the greater good. Are there any non-horrible examples of socialism? The only successful example of it was the Nazi party and that didn’t end well for them in the end. Not really. Some people like to say Denmark is socialist..... but it's not.
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Post by musik on Aug 23, 2018 13:13:03 GMT
There aren't many socialist countries left in the world today.
In a near future, let's say 25-50 years, I think country after country after country will be more and more isolated and provide just for themselves, without any trade with others internationally going on whatsoever. And with strict rules - noone can get into our country AND noone can get out.
My vision.
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