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Post by teenagefanclub on Apr 23, 2018 20:29:17 GMT
What is the right thing to do here? I know if he was mine I'd be fighting tooth and nail to do whatever I could.
I see he's now been granted Italian citizenship and Italy are demanding the return of their citizen to Italy.
My thoughts for what it's worth are, if the high court are going to demand support is removed, then they may as well let him travel to Italy for a chance of life.
I don't agree with storming alder hay in any way.
God bless little Alfie.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 21:07:33 GMT
Completely agree, why give up on a young life when Rome are willing to give him a chance at life?
The courts should obviously give the young boy any opportunity available to life, and if that means releasing him to Italy we should do everything in our power to aid that effort.
A sad affair and my heart goes out to him and his family. Truly hope the right decision will be made to give him every available opportunity to life. God bless.
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Post by richie22 on Apr 24, 2018 4:51:27 GMT
I think we don’t know half of what’s been going on, same as the young tot last year, alder hay and great ormond street, both world leading child care hospitals, not be of us are doctors. We know what a well orchestrated social media campaign has told us, I wish this young man could live a long and happy life but I’m not sure that is ever possible. Sorry but perhaps it’s time to let go. Regard Italy, is it possible, could he survive the trip, could his parents! Could his family survive the trip without doing something silly that would jeopardise things.. just yesterday they tried to storm the hospital for gods sake,wtf. This is a huge mess, god bless young Alfie
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Post by Cast no shadow on Apr 24, 2018 5:30:01 GMT
I think the hospital doesnt need all the aggro outside their doors
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Post by felonious on Apr 24, 2018 6:37:29 GMT
They've just mentioned on the radio that the treatment on offer in Italy will enable him to be cared for more easily but will be invasive and will not offer any hope of cure to his condition and can be done by any childrens hospital in the country. It's generally a sad case all around for everyone involved.
I've been to Alder Hey with one of the kids when they were a baby and the service and staff there were first class. It's a harrowing and stressful thing taking a young child into hospital but to have to pass rent a mob can't make it any easier. They really ought to be ashamed of their behaviour.
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Post by bathstoke on Apr 24, 2018 6:57:07 GMT
They've just mentioned on the radio that the treatment on offer in Italy will enable him to be cared for more easily but will be invasive and will not offer any hope of cure to his condition and can be done by any childrens hospital in the country. It's generally a sad case all around for everyone involved.
I've been to Alder Hey with one of the kids when they were a baby and the service and staff there were first class. It's a harrowing and stressful thing taking a young child into hospital but to have to pass rent a mob can't make it any easier. They really ought to be ashamed of their behaviour. Are they still singing those ridiculous songs...
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Post by salopstick on Apr 24, 2018 8:52:40 GMT
Tragic story. Very easy to have polar opinions when it’s not your child and people everywhere will wish this child gets better.
If this child was a dog it would be put down to ease its suffering. I’m not saying for one minute we should put the child down but keeping someone artificially alive when there is no cure for the condition could be considered just as inhumane.
These doctors are professionals and the parents love Alfie but sometimes it’s better to let them go and ease their pain. Court hearings and protests just add to the pain. Half those protesters probably do t know the whole medical story
Very sad.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2018 9:24:46 GMT
It's just been on the radio that his life support has been switched off a few hours ago but at the moment he's still continuing breathing.
Looks like the end is very near for the poor little chap.
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Post by 3putts on Apr 24, 2018 9:44:16 GMT
its an emotive subject but sometimes you just have to let go no matter how heartbreaking.
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Post by JurgenVandeurzen on Apr 24, 2018 10:08:33 GMT
I don't see the harm in letting them try in Rome.
Heartbreaking story no matter which way you look at it.
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Post by stillgame4it on Apr 24, 2018 10:31:07 GMT
Can't blame the parents for trying everything possible, I am sure we would all fight to the very end for every last minute we could have with our child. What a tragic situation.
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Post by Northy on Apr 24, 2018 10:51:06 GMT
A very sad scenario for all involved, which shouldn't be played out in front of the worlds media and the Jeremy Kyle watching rent a crowd, when all medical advice says he's uncurable and it's only a downward spiral to the end, best to let them go with Dignity.
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Post by StokieNath on Apr 24, 2018 11:11:26 GMT
Let the boy go with dignity. What life is it to be kept alive by a machine?
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Post by flea79 on Apr 24, 2018 11:27:10 GMT
complete lack of dignity being shown by a lot of people hanging on this case, and the Dad who is being a whiney scouser, give your fucking son some peace instead of even turning his last few hours possibly into a facebook live stream
if you really want take him to Italy then I would say fine but don't bother bringing him back to Alderhey or any NHS based service when you still don't get the result you want
these doctors spend years learning the craft and know what they are on about, they take an oath to preserve and protect life, im sure they don't turn life support off for a laugh or something to do one day, but no some scouser in his old school tie thinks he knows better as the pope has tweeted him...
sadly 10-20 years ago the child would not have made it this far but advances in medicine are prolonging lives where sometimes there is no hope, If it was I and I was assured that the child was suffering and no hope I would like to think I would do the sensible and compassionate thing but who knows
bless the child, fuck the rest of them who have turned this into a circus
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Post by richie22 on Apr 24, 2018 12:36:30 GMT
Five live had an interview this morning with a peadeactric consultant, he claimed that the ‘italiens’ were only able to make the poor chap more comfortable and maybe prolong his life a little longer, but given that his condition is incurable. The inevitable would soon happen, tragic situation similar to that last year. That’s heading more to a circus than to a young toddlers inevitable passing in peace and dignity.
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Post by thegift on Apr 24, 2018 15:17:25 GMT
complete lack of dignity being shown by a lot of people hanging on this case, and the Dad who is being a whiney scouser, give your fucking son some peace instead of even turning his last few hours possibly into a facebook live stream if you really want take him to Italy then I would say fine but don't bother bringing him back to Alderhey or any NHS based service when you still don't get the result you want these doctors spend years learning the craft and know what they are on about, they take an oath to preserve and protect life, im sure they don't turn life support off for a laugh or something to do one day, but no some scouser in his old school tie thinks he knows better as the pope has tweeted him... sadly 10-20 years ago the child would not have made it this far but advances in medicine are prolonging lives where sometimes there is no hope, If it was I and I was assured that the child was suffering and no hope I would like to think I would do the sensible and compassionate thing but who knows bless the child, fuck the rest of them who have turned this into a circus My thoughts exactly, said it perfectly and to the point 79. I feel so sorry for the little chap but fuck me its turned into a right farce.
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Post by salopstick on Apr 25, 2018 12:19:02 GMT
The Facebook warriors have all become doctors and neurologists
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Post by Northy on Apr 25, 2018 12:55:02 GMT
The Facebook warriors have all become doctors and neurologists amazing, they got a PHD from the jeremy kyle show.
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Post by vahl on Apr 25, 2018 19:34:29 GMT
The Facebook warriors have all become doctors and neurologists The Dad has tried to have 3 of the Doctors that are treating him charged with murder. It's genuinely sad but the lad is brain dead and going to die - hopefully peacefully and without any aggro from those following afterwards.
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Post by Northy on Apr 25, 2018 19:53:39 GMT
The Facebook warriors have all become doctors and neurologists The Dad has tried to have 3 of the Doctors that are treating him charged with murder. It's genuinely sad but the lad is brain dead and going to die - hopefully peacefully and without any aggro from those following afterwards. What an absolute fool if he's doing that.
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Post by richie22 on Apr 25, 2018 20:06:37 GMT
I think this need to be stamped down on, many people have lost sight of a very ill young toddler, the family , the mob supporters, hangers on etc etc . I believe today two ‘german’ medics !!! (Of some sort) had to be ejected from alder hey, not the first time they’ve been sneaked in either, this mob that think it’s ok and in the good name of saving a life to charge at a children’s hospital and try to force entry. Countless lawyers and advisors that seem to be giving the young father some shocking advice. Shocking that this circus has been allowed to continue. For me I’d want to be there for every last second, why does the father seem to be on most channels and radio stations giving interviews daily, why is he allowed to give public address outside the hospital to the mob , and why does him and the young mother have seperate barristers????? This is wrong on so many levels, the only winners being a legal team that will no doubt be getting very rich of it, very sad
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Post by metalhead on Apr 27, 2018 8:57:41 GMT
Anyone protesting outside the hospital needs to be reminded just how much the NHS does for the people of this country.
However, I do feel for the dad. He's not a whiney scouser at all, and there's few people who hate scousers more than me..... He's grieving and probably/definitely in denial. His son is very ill and from what the Doctors have repeatedly said, is probably in a permanent vegetative state, but it doesn't change the fact he is human and he is that mans son. I would imagine most of you are fathers or want to be fathers someday, and you dreamed about taking your kids the football, watching them go to school, grow up, giving them Oatcakes, taking them the pub, giving your kids for their first beer etc.... this poor man won't be able to do any of those things and I can imagine it is tearing him up inside.
The boy should be allowed to travel to Rome, I really don't understand how our courts are willing to take control from loving parents. He is their son, and if they want him to be treated in Italy, then that is their wishes.
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Post by Northy on Apr 27, 2018 13:04:59 GMT
Anyone protesting outside the hospital needs to be reminded just how much the NHS does for the people of this country. However, I do feel for the dad. He's not a whiney scouser at all, and there's few people who hate scousers more than me..... He's grieving and probably/definitely in denial. His son is very ill and from what the Doctors have repeatedly said, is probably in a permanent vegetative state, but it doesn't change the fact he is human and he is that mans son. I would imagine most of you are fathers or want to be fathers someday, and you dreamed about taking your kids the football, watching them go to school, grow up, giving them Oatcakes, taking them the pub, giving your kids for their first beer etc.... this poor man won't be able to do any of those things and I can imagine it is tearing him up inside. The boy should be allowed to travel to Rome, I really don't understand how our courts are willing to take control from loving parents. He is their son, and if they want him to be treated in Italy, then that is their wishes. Can they afford to take him to Rome, are they medically insured or is it at the expense of Alder Hay NHS ?
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Post by metalhead on Apr 27, 2018 13:10:21 GMT
Anyone protesting outside the hospital needs to be reminded just how much the NHS does for the people of this country. However, I do feel for the dad. He's not a whiney scouser at all, and there's few people who hate scousers more than me..... He's grieving and probably/definitely in denial. His son is very ill and from what the Doctors have repeatedly said, is probably in a permanent vegetative state, but it doesn't change the fact he is human and he is that mans son. I would imagine most of you are fathers or want to be fathers someday, and you dreamed about taking your kids the football, watching them go to school, grow up, giving them Oatcakes, taking them the pub, giving your kids for their first beer etc.... this poor man won't be able to do any of those things and I can imagine it is tearing him up inside. The boy should be allowed to travel to Rome, I really don't understand how our courts are willing to take control from loving parents. He is their son, and if they want him to be treated in Italy, then that is their wishes. Can they afford to take him to Rome, are they medically insured or is it at the expense of Alder Hay NHS ? I believe the plane ready to take him was being funded privately (by donations perhaps?). If Alder Hay are expected to pay, well, obviously that can't be the case and no one would suggest otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2018 13:13:45 GMT
Anyone protesting outside the hospital needs to be reminded just how much the NHS does for the people of this country. However, I do feel for the dad. He's not a whiney scouser at all, and there's few people who hate scousers more than me..... He's grieving and probably/definitely in denial. His son is very ill and from what the Doctors have repeatedly said, is probably in a permanent vegetative state, but it doesn't change the fact he is human and he is that mans son. I would imagine most of you are fathers or want to be fathers someday, and you dreamed about taking your kids the football, watching them go to school, grow up, giving them Oatcakes, taking them the pub, giving your kids for their first beer etc.... this poor man won't be able to do any of those things and I can imagine it is tearing him up inside. The boy should be allowed to travel to Rome, I really don't understand how our courts are willing to take control from loving parents. He is their son, and if they want him to be treated in Italy, then that is their wishes. I definitely think he should be allowed home to die with dignity away from the prying media and with his family. I know he's their son but legally the courts have a duty of care to that little boy as an individual and many experts have deemed that at best the Italians will extend his life but not improve it, and at worst the stress of the journey will cause him pain and could ultimately kill him. Such an emotive subject and can't even begin to comprehend what they're all going through but we have to take a step back and say that medically and judicially many individuals have made their decision based on the right outcome for Alfie, I symapathise with each and every one of them as they won't have made the decision lightly. Going home to be with his family now is a much needed compromise at this stage I would suggest.......
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Post by metalhead on Apr 27, 2018 13:23:48 GMT
Anyone protesting outside the hospital needs to be reminded just how much the NHS does for the people of this country. However, I do feel for the dad. He's not a whiney scouser at all, and there's few people who hate scousers more than me..... He's grieving and probably/definitely in denial. His son is very ill and from what the Doctors have repeatedly said, is probably in a permanent vegetative state, but it doesn't change the fact he is human and he is that mans son. I would imagine most of you are fathers or want to be fathers someday, and you dreamed about taking your kids the football, watching them go to school, grow up, giving them Oatcakes, taking them the pub, giving your kids for their first beer etc.... this poor man won't be able to do any of those things and I can imagine it is tearing him up inside. The boy should be allowed to travel to Rome, I really don't understand how our courts are willing to take control from loving parents. He is their son, and if they want him to be treated in Italy, then that is their wishes. I definitely think he should be allowed home to die with dignity away from the prying media and with his family. I know he's their son but legally the courts have a duty of care to that little boy as an individual and many experts have deemed that at best the Italians will extend his life but not improve it, and at worst the stress of the journey will cause him pain and could ultimately kill him. Such an emotive subject and can't even begin to comprehend what they're all going through but we have to take a step back and say that medically and judicially many individuals have made their decision based on the right outcome for Alfie, I symapathise with each and every one of them as they won't have made the decision lightly. Going home to be with his family now is a much needed compromise at this stage I would suggest....... The media are involved because ultimately, Alfie's dad wanted them involved. The problem with saying he needs to be allowed to die with dignity, is clearly his family don't want him to die. They are holding on. I hate it when people talk as if they can just plop another one out though.... this is their child we're talking about. The problem is, they believe he is still responsive. Doctors disagree. What makes the situation significantly more complex, they truly believe he is also still sentient. There's two very emotive issues there, because there are clear differences between being responsive and being sentient and to suggest he isn't sentient, is to almost suggest he isn't human anymore. Your body is a living organism. It is a huge lump of organic material, and like all organic material, it naturally responds to the environment around it, like a cabbage (to use an utterly horrid term). Sentience on the other hand is the capacity to feel.... It is the ability to appreciate the senses, feel emotions etc. Is Alfie Evans sentient? According to Doctors, no, he is in a permanent vegetative state. However, this doesn't mean he cannot respond, because his body will naturally respond, like any other organism on this earth..... and I think this is what is fuelling their false hope. He will never recover and he will never enjoy a quality of life that you want for a child though. Try telling the parents that mate. They love him, and he's their child. They're doing what any good parent does.... they're protecting their child. I'll admit, it's heartbreaking to read Alfie's dad talking. Clearly a very emotive individual.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2018 13:50:20 GMT
I definitely think he should be allowed home to die with dignity away from the prying media and with his family. I know he's their son but legally the courts have a duty of care to that little boy as an individual and many experts have deemed that at best the Italians will extend his life but not improve it, and at worst the stress of the journey will cause him pain and could ultimately kill him. Such an emotive subject and can't even begin to comprehend what they're all going through but we have to take a step back and say that medically and judicially many individuals have made their decision based on the right outcome for Alfie, I symapathise with each and every one of them as they won't have made the decision lightly. Going home to be with his family now is a much needed compromise at this stage I would suggest....... The media are involved because ultimately, Alfie's dad wanted them involved. The problem with saying he needs to be allowed to die with dignity, is clearly his family don't want him to die. They are holding on. I hate it when people talk as if they can just plop another one out though.... this is their child we're talking about. The problem is, they believe he is still responsive. Doctors disagree. What makes the situation significantly more complex, they truly believe he is also still sentient. There's two very emotive issues there, because there are clear differences between being responsive and being sentient and to suggest he isn't sentient, is to almost suggest he isn't human anymore. Your body is a living organism. It is a huge lump of organic material, and like all organic material, it naturally responds to the environment around it, like a cabbage (to use an utterly horrid term). Sentience on the other hand is the capacity to feel.... It is the ability to appreciate the senses, feel emotions etc. Is Alfie Evans sentient? According to Doctors, no, he is in a permanent vegetative state. However, this doesn't mean he cannot respond, because his body will naturally respond, like any other organism on this earth..... and I think this is what is fuelling their false hope. He will never recover and he will never enjoy a quality of life that you want for a child though. Try telling the parents that mate. They love him, and he's their child. They're doing what any good parent does.... they're protecting their child. I'll admit, it's heartbreaking to read Alfie's dad talking. Clearly a very emotive individual. Don't disagree with any of that fella. But the doctors and the judiciary are ruling on behalf of Alfie not the parents. That's the law and that's how it should be applied. The parents reaction is completely understandable, but fast forward 6 months and how would they feel if the last moments with Alfie were in the back of an aeroplane and not surrounded by family and friends? It's a real tough one......
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Post by metalhead on Apr 27, 2018 13:53:58 GMT
The media are involved because ultimately, Alfie's dad wanted them involved. The problem with saying he needs to be allowed to die with dignity, is clearly his family don't want him to die. They are holding on. I hate it when people talk as if they can just plop another one out though.... this is their child we're talking about. The problem is, they believe he is still responsive. Doctors disagree. What makes the situation significantly more complex, they truly believe he is also still sentient. There's two very emotive issues there, because there are clear differences between being responsive and being sentient and to suggest he isn't sentient, is to almost suggest he isn't human anymore. Your body is a living organism. It is a huge lump of organic material, and like all organic material, it naturally responds to the environment around it, like a cabbage (to use an utterly horrid term). Sentience on the other hand is the capacity to feel.... It is the ability to appreciate the senses, feel emotions etc. Is Alfie Evans sentient? According to Doctors, no, he is in a permanent vegetative state. However, this doesn't mean he cannot respond, because his body will naturally respond, like any other organism on this earth..... and I think this is what is fuelling their false hope. He will never recover and he will never enjoy a quality of life that you want for a child though. Try telling the parents that mate. They love him, and he's their child. They're doing what any good parent does.... they're protecting their child. I'll admit, it's heartbreaking to read Alfie's dad talking. Clearly a very emotive individual. Don't disagree with any of that fella. But the doctors and the judiciary are ruling on behalf of Alfie not the parents. That's the law and that's how it should be applied. The parents reaction is completely understandable, but fast forward 6 months and how would they feel if the last moments with Alfie were in the back of an aeroplane and not surrounded by family and friends? It's a real tough one...... Yeah it is, and it should make every loving parent want to hug their kids just a little bit more than usual.
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Post by salopstick on Apr 28, 2018 6:37:41 GMT
Now he’s at peace
RIP
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 28, 2018 6:53:26 GMT
Another one of those awful, awful cases. Here's the Lawtel details of permission to appeal being refused for those interested: ALDER HEY CHILDREN'S NHS FOUNDATION TRUST v (1) THOMAS EVANS (2) KATE JAMES (3) ALFIE EVANS (A CHILD BY HIS GUARDIAN) (2018) www.lawtel.com/MyLawtel/Documents/AC5002645CA (Civ Div) (McFarlane LJ, King LJ, Coulson LJ) 25/04/2018 HEALTH - FAMILY LAW BEST INTERESTS : CHANGE OF CIRCUMSTANCES : CHILDREN : HOSPITALS : LIFE-SUSTAINING TREATMENT : PALLIATIVE CARE : WITHDRAWAL The parents of a 23-month-old child who suffered from a rapidly progressive destructive brain disorder were refused permission to appeal against a judgment that there had been no change in the child's condition to justify setting aside a declaration that continued ventilatory support was not in his best interests. The applicant parents applied for permission to appeal against a judgment ( [2018] EWHC 953 (Fam) (http://www.lawtel.com/MyLawtel/Documents/AC5002635)) that there had been no change in their 23-month-old's son's condition to justify setting aside a declaration that continued ventilatory support was not in his best interests. The child had been diagnosed with a rapidly progressive destructive brain disorder. The latest MRI scan in February 2018 had shown a total disintegration of his brain. He had been a patient at the respondent NHS Trust's hospital since 2016. It had applied to the court in February 2018 for a declaration as to what was in his best interests and the court had found that there was a unanimous medical view that his condition was irreversible and that there was no identifiable treatment. The judge decided ( Alder Hey Children's NHS Foundation Trust v Evans [2018] EWHC 308 (Fam) (http://www.lawtel.com/MyLawtel/Documents/AC5001884)) that it was in his best interests for intrusive treatment to be withdrawn. The evidence was that he would die within a short time. The parents' appeal against that decision was dismissed by the Court of Appeal and they were refused permission to appeal by the Supreme Court and the European Court of Human Rights. They sought to release the child from hospital so that he could travel to a children's hospital in the Vatican for continued intensive care treatment which was refused. The Supreme Court found that the child's best interests were the gold standard and decided that it was not in his best interests to be taken abroad or for intensive care to be continued. It held that every legal issue in the case had to be decided by his best interests. On 23 April 2018, he was extubated. He had since breathed by himself with modest access to oxygen. He had been granted Italian citizenship that day. The parents submitted that there had been a change in circumstance since February 2018 and that the judge should have reconsidered his declaration in light of the fact that the child was breathing for himself and that the Pope had a military air ambulance on standby to take him to the children's hospital in the Vatican where he would receive life-sustaining care. The mother argued that he was now an Italian citizen and entitled to freedom of movement. HELD: The appeal had no reasonable prospect of success. There was no basis for holding that the judge had been wrong in law. The judge had conducted a full hearing and had heard evidence of the child's current circumstances. He understood the importance of his decision and knew the case well. He recorded the evidence which had been established in February 2018 and found that all that was offered by the Italian plan was a new palliative care plan. He was clear that there had been no significant change in the child's circumstances. It was clear from the evidence that it had always been contemplated that there would be a period of life after the removal of ventilation. The length of that period could not be predicted. The judge had no hesitation in rejecting the suggestion that there had been a change in circumstances. There was no medical evidence before the court of a change in medical understanding as to the child's condition. The availability of excellent intensive care at the Vatican hospital had always been a feature of the case before the judge. He had considered it and ruled it out because it was not in the child's best interests to have his life maintained longer by artificial ventilation. The mother's grounds of appeal also failed. Permission refused
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