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Post by salopstick on Dec 20, 2017 10:20:28 GMT
Managers have a shelf life period.
We just happened to have that one year past his sell by date. We just hope we can limp to the end of the season
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Post by alster on Dec 20, 2017 10:29:39 GMT
Managers have a shelf life period. We just happened to have that one year past his sell by date. We just hope we can limp to the end of the season That was last season what's your excuse for this season.
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Post by PolPotter on Dec 20, 2017 11:05:31 GMT
He shouldn't have allowed a confidence stricken Berahino take a penalty when there was every chance of him missing - that nailed Berahino's coffin for me.
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Post by alster on Dec 20, 2017 11:12:57 GMT
He shouldn't have allowed a confidence stricken Berahino take a penalty when there was every chance of him missing - that nailed Berahino's coffin for me. Other than walking on the pitch and taking the ball off him I don't think there's much he could have done about it. Berahino put his needs in front of the teams needs. Luckily it didn't turn out costly. Players do stupid things when they are getting desperate Pennant vs Everton for example.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 20, 2017 11:23:41 GMT
It was absolutely the right decision to play Bojan v Rochdale. There had been several big scalps that weekend and we went into the Monday night fixture with a winnable tie against Blackburn to follow and a very real chance, given how well we were playing, of making it to another cup final. Alas it didn't transpire how we would have liked but it was definitely not the wrong decision. It was also the right decision to field our regular team, at that time, away to WBA. Had we lost that game having rested Bojan, Shaqiri etc, and lost, there would have been hell to pay. We were on a great run, momentum, as we are finding out now, is absolutely crucial. The only thing that has killed us has been bad transfer business. As Big Sam correctly said, good signings make you a better manager and bad ones get you the sack. Obviously football is about opinions. Hughes should have focused on the needs of Stoke City. Just because other teams had lost didn't mean we would, and we had plenty of backup. We didn't need to risk our most gifted player at that point. It's always seemed to me that the loss in the semi-finals to Liverpool took what wind was left in our sails, and it's been dire and downhill ever since. I decided not to highlight this one as red. It was a valiant performance. I came away from Anfield incredibly proud of a number of players, but I remember vividly that Hughes opted for Crouch in that game, which signals the start of his move away from this excellent football we were playing up to that point. He shouldn't have allowed a confidence stricken Berahino take a penalty when there was every chance of him missing - that nailed Berahino's coffin for me. I didn't mention that specifically as I didn't feel it was Hughes' fault.
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 20, 2017 11:32:11 GMT
Found out/failed....same difference. It was a crap tactic for the team we had. The surprise element worked but once you knew it was coming it was easy to stop. High press, we have no one in midfield to receive the ball, hoof to Bojan- useless. The false 9 system was used for a month or two only. After that nothing worked. where do you feel we went wrongVery interesting question. Clearly from reading Oatcake over the years everyone's tipping point is different, although there are a few who never gave any support and there are still quite a few still hoping Hughes will turn things round. A lot of opinions are made in retrospect, when people look back to remember a significant event and say that was when things went wrong. I have supporter Hughes resolutely and argued that things started again in August with a new squad, what happened before is irrelevant. I've argued although we are conceding too many goals, we are still scoring goals, and defending can be fixed. I've argued we have had tough fixtures so far and more winnable games are yet to come. And, finally, I have argued there is no one Stoke could get as a manager who is proven to be better. Even on Saturday, when the first goal went in, I felt we were unlucky and victims of fate and we can still turn it round. But after the West Ham match, I finally tipped and decided the performance was so abysmal I could no longer keep defending the situation. We are now failing to score and losing to poor sides, and if we have reached a point when Hughes future depends on the result of one match against West Brom, then IMO it is already too late and the sooner Hughes goes and lets someone else try and inspire the players, the better. It isn't a question of a point/event in time, but a steady accumulation of events that ultimately tip the balance against keeping Hughes in post.
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Post by Davef on Dec 20, 2017 12:19:06 GMT
A good and thorough OP by Metalhead, but he did miss out Shawcross's injury at Leicester in January 2016, which, quickly followed by Butland's broken ankle led to the start of some heavy defeats which has had a detrimental effect on our confidence, particularly in the games against the top clubs.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 20, 2017 12:32:19 GMT
A good and thorough OP by Metalhead, but he did miss out Shawcross's injury at Leicester in January 2016, which, quickly followed by Butland's broken ankle led to the start of some heavy defeats which has had a detrimental effect on our confidence, particularly in the games against the top clubs. Hi mate, thanks. I didn't miss out Butland's injury though, so perhaps I've put it in the wrong month? I only mentioned the Shawcross injury briefly. I decided to mention the original injury which actually goes back to Feb 2015. At the time, it was suggested he would be out for just 2 weeks. That 2 weeks became something like 3 months. I think mentioning every recurrence is unnecessary, as we all know he's never been the same.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 20, 2017 12:34:10 GMT
A good and thorough OP by Metalhead, but he did miss out Shawcross's injury at Leicester in January 2016, which, quickly followed by Butland's broken ankle led to the start of some heavy defeats which has had a detrimental effect on our confidence, particularly in the games against the top clubs. www.theguardian.com/football/2015/aug/07/mark-hughes-ryan-shawcross-stokeThis was dated in the summer of 2015, a few months after Ryan did his back in for the first time.
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Post by Davef on Dec 20, 2017 12:36:12 GMT
A good and thorough OP by Metalhead, but he did miss out Shawcross's injury at Leicester in January 2016, which, quickly followed by Butland's broken ankle led to the start of some heavy defeats which has had a detrimental effect on our confidence, particularly in the games against the top clubs. Hi mate, thanks. I didn't miss out Butland's injury though, so perhaps I've put it in the wrong month? I only mentioned the Shawcross injury briefly. I decided to mention the original injury which actually goes back to Feb 2015. At the time, it was suggested he would be out for just 2 weeks. That 2 weeks became something like 3 months. I think mentioning every recurrence is unnecessary, as we all know he's never been the same. Just checked it out. He was injured against QPR on 31st January 2015, returned on 14th March at West Brom and then played the rest of the season. He was in commanding form by the end of the season and was particularly superb against Spurs when we won 3-0 and didn't give Harry Kane a sniff. He then missed the start of the following season and didn't play until 27th October against Chelsea. We then kept 8 clean sheets in the 15 games he played until he was injured at Leicester.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 20, 2017 12:43:12 GMT
Hi mate, thanks. I didn't miss out Butland's injury though, so perhaps I've put it in the wrong month? I only mentioned the Shawcross injury briefly. I decided to mention the original injury which actually goes back to Feb 2015. At the time, it was suggested he would be out for just 2 weeks. That 2 weeks became something like 3 months. I think mentioning every recurrence is unnecessary, as we all know he's never been the same. Just checked it out. He was injured against QPR on 31st January 2015, returned on 14th March at West Brom and then played the rest of the season. He was in commanding form by the end of the season and was particularly superb against Spurs when we won 3-0 and didn't give Harry Kane a sniff. Interesting, I think I'll add that to the OP, as I want to try and make it as accurate as possible. I wonder if he was playing through the pain then? Perhaps on painkillers? He surely wasn't right because he needed that op in the summer and then he didn't return till a few weeks into the next season did he? Perhaps he was causing irreparable damage to his now incredibly fragile back. He's never been the same, let's be honest? With the benefit of hindsight, it's easy to say that it was a bad move to play him, but I can imagine Ryan is one of the few players who absolutely insists on playing, fit or not. The whole point of the OP is not to be for or against Hughes as such, but to attempt some kind of objective timeline regarding his management and how it's ended up in the situation we are now. Even the most neutral outside viewers can see it's going wrong horribly wrong, so I don't feel there's any harm in trying to portray it in a even handed light. The bits highlighted in red are more about where I feel fans heads were slightly turned, mostly from memory of fans opinions, home and away. Those are my feelings though, purely subjective.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 20, 2017 12:45:41 GMT
where do you feel we went wrong Very interesting question. Clearly from reading Oatcake over the years everyone's tipping point is different, although there are a few who never gave any support and there are still quite a few still hoping Hughes will turn things round. A lot of opinions are made in retrospect, when people look back to remember a significant event and say that was when things went wrong. I have supporter Hughes resolutely and argued that things started again in August with a new squad, what happened before is irrelevant. I've argued although we are conceding too many goals, we are still scoring goals, and defending can be fixed. I've argued we have had tough fixtures so far and more winnable games are yet to come. And, finally, I have argued there is no one Stoke could get as a manager who is proven to be better. Even on Saturday, when the first goal went in, I felt we were unlucky and victims of fate and we can still turn it round. But after the West Ham match, I finally tipped and decided the performance was so abysmal I could no longer keep defending the situation. We are now failing to score and losing to poor sides, and if we have reached a point when Hughes future depends on the result of one match against West Brom, then IMO it is already too late and the sooner Hughes goes and lets someone else try and inspire the players, the better. It isn't a question of a point/event in time, but a steady accumulation of events that ultimately tip the balance against keeping Hughes in post. I still back Hughes to a certain degree, hence I haven't been half as harsh as some people might. I want him to turn it around, I just can't see how he can, therefore I'm of the opinion that to steady the ship, we may need to do something drastic, i.e. get rid now before it's too late. I am equally scared of this prospect as currently, aside from Pulis, there are limited choices in the management market.
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Post by Davef on Dec 20, 2017 12:48:37 GMT
Just checked it out. He was injured against QPR on 31st January 2015, returned on 14th March at West Brom and then played the rest of the season. He was in commanding form by the end of the season and was particularly superb against Spurs when we won 3-0 and didn't give Harry Kane a sniff. Interesting, I think I'll add that to the OP, as I want to try and make it as accurate as possible. I wonder if he was playing through the pain then? Perhaps on painkillers? He surely wasn't right because he needed that op in the summer and then he didn't return till a few weeks into the next season did he? Perhaps he was causing irreparable damage to his now incredibly fragile back. He's never been the same, let's be honest? With the benefit of hindsight, it's easy to say that it was a bad move to play him, but I can imagine Ryan is one of the few players who absolutely insists on playing, fit or not. The whole point of the OP is not to be for or against Hughes as such, but to attempt some kind of objective timeline regarding his management and how it's ended up in the situation we are now. Even the most neutral outside viewers can see it's going wrong horribly wrong, so I don't feel there's any harm in trying to portray it in a even handed light. The bits highlighted in red are more about where I feel fans heads were slightly turned, mostly from memory of fans opinions, home and away. Those are my feelings though, purely subjective. I've edited my post a bit if you haven't noticed...
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Dec 20, 2017 13:26:24 GMT
It has been mostly downhill since the Liverpool cup semi final. Things like playing Bojan in the cup vs Rochdale have 0 bearing on the current situation. I know this is all speculation but causality suggests otherwise. Every decision made by anyone at the club at any point in history can potentially affect the club's standing. I have no doubt that Bojan's outstanding form would have continued if he hadn't got injured. This would have boosted confidence and morale, we'd have carried on playing the scintillating football. Results would be better. We'd be seen as more attractive and bagged better players, or we'd have sold him and bagged a wad of cash to spend on better players. That then skews Metalhead's timeline into an alternative sequence of events completely. As I said at the start that it's pure speculation to guess at where we would be as of 20th Dec 2017, but to say the event has zero bearing is just plain false. There are so many variables to consider that I would say it is impossible to have ended up in the same place as we are now, given the impact it had then, and the subsequent ways in which we dealt with it.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Dec 20, 2017 14:06:49 GMT
I don't know whether it was a mistake to play Bojan against Rochdale, as had we lost he would have been criticised for not doing so and not taking the tie seriously. That said, I feel his injury was certainly a top 5 reasons for Hughes' decline. Bojan was playing football on a level I've not seen a Stoke player at before or since, I included 2015-16 Arnautovic in that equation too. His injury came at just the worst possible time, when he was finally starting to look like the footballer he always could be.
Just like with storms and stadiums....it's just a twist of fate that separates success from failure. It's been a slippery slope for 18 months or so, and nothing Hughes does is right. He needs to go, because those 2 years were some of my best as a Stoke fan, but that credit is quickly being spent by gutless displays like that against West Ham and Spurs.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 20, 2017 14:32:13 GMT
Interesting, I think I'll add that to the OP, as I want to try and make it as accurate as possible. I wonder if he was playing through the pain then? Perhaps on painkillers? He surely wasn't right because he needed that op in the summer and then he didn't return till a few weeks into the next season did he? Perhaps he was causing irreparable damage to his now incredibly fragile back. He's never been the same, let's be honest? With the benefit of hindsight, it's easy to say that it was a bad move to play him, but I can imagine Ryan is one of the few players who absolutely insists on playing, fit or not. The whole point of the OP is not to be for or against Hughes as such, but to attempt some kind of objective timeline regarding his management and how it's ended up in the situation we are now. Even the most neutral outside viewers can see it's going wrong horribly wrong, so I don't feel there's any harm in trying to portray it in a even handed light. The bits highlighted in red are more about where I feel fans heads were slightly turned, mostly from memory of fans opinions, home and away. Those are my feelings though, purely subjective. I've edited my post a bit if you haven't noticed... I think I see what you're getting at, so you think it's the second injury against Leicester that was the real bad one. Not the first ?
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Post by Davef on Dec 20, 2017 14:37:23 GMT
I've edited my post a bit if you haven't noticed... I think I see what you're getting at, so you think it's the second injury against Leicester that was the real bad one. Not the first ? Oh absolutely. He was also rushed back into the team at the end of that season, which was evident by his physical condition in the games he played.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 20, 2017 14:38:03 GMT
Managers have a shelf life period. We just happened to have that one year past his sell by date. We just hope we can limp to the end of the season That was last season what's your excuse for this season. It’s very easy to say he should have gone last summer and he probably should have. Regardless of this season he had enough credit in the bank to stay. The hindsight of this season is a wonderful thing
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Post by metalhead on Dec 20, 2017 14:43:15 GMT
It has been mostly downhill since the Liverpool cup semi final. Things like playing Bojan in the cup vs Rochdale have 0 bearing on the current situation. I know this is all speculation but causality suggests otherwise. Every decision made by anyone at the club at any point in history can potentially affect the club's standing. I have no doubt that Bojan's outstanding form would have continued if he hadn't got injured. This would have boosted confidence and morale, we'd have carried on playing the scintillating football. Results would be better. We'd be seen as more attractive and bagged better players, or we'd have sold him and bagged a wad of cash to spend on better players. That then skews Metalhead's timeline into an alternative sequence of events completely. As I said at the start that it's pure speculation to guess at where we would be as of 20th Dec 2017, but to say the event has zero bearing is just plain false. There are so many variables to consider that I would say it is impossible to have ended up in the same place as we are now, given the impact it had then, and the subsequent ways in which we dealt with it. Absolutely this. You play him, he gets injured and we lose our most gifted player, who then fails to return at anywhere near the level he was at before. Few players successfully return from a cruciate and reach the levels they were before. For every Roy Keane and Robert Pires who came back even better, there's many players who don't return to that level. I don't feel as though Bojan has been the same. He doesn't move the same as he did then. It was a big decision and I feel Hughes got it wrong. Furthermore, this idea that "well if he hadn't done it then, he might have elsewhere", which is occasionally banded about, doesn't wash with me either. You can only take facts, and the fact is, we played him in a game that we should have won comfortably without risking our better players. All these decisions are what have taken us to our current place.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 20, 2017 14:43:58 GMT
I think I see what you're getting at, so you think it's the second injury against Leicester that was the real bad one. Not the first ? Oh absolutely. He was also rushed back into the team at the end of that season, which was evident by his physical condition in the games he played. Wait wait, end of which season? The 2015 one? Agreed. If he needed the operation in the summer, then for sure he was playing through pain and this was a bad mistake.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 20, 2017 14:44:57 GMT
That was last season what's your excuse for this season. It’s very easy to say he should have gone last summer and he probably should have. Regardless of this season he had enough credit in the bank to stay. The hindsight of this season is a wonderful thing I agree with this. I didn't want Hughes out at the start of this season whatsoever. I thought those who booed at Burnley away last season were completely in the wrong. We're in a different place now, and hindsight is a wonderful thing. Decisions are now what Coates needs to make.
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Post by Davef on Dec 20, 2017 14:50:06 GMT
Oh absolutely. He was also rushed back into the team at the end of that season, which was evident by his physical condition in the games he played. Wait wait, end of which season? The 2015 one? Agreed. If he needed the operation in the summer, then for sure he was playing through pain and this was a bad mistake. Sorry, the 2015/16 season. He missed about two months and then re-appeared after Butland's injury.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 20, 2017 14:51:35 GMT
Wait wait, end of which season? The 2015 one? Agreed. If he needed the operation in the summer, then for sure he was playing through pain and this was a bad mistake. Sorry, the 2015/16 season. He missed about two months and then re-appeared after Butland's injury. Ahh I see what you're saying. I wonder if the two issues are related. Probably. Even though, his back has been getting worse every season. Now Ryan is half the player he was a few years ago.... still love him though. Perhaps the only one who properly cares.
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 20, 2017 15:02:19 GMT
An excellent OP which I'm sure entailed a lot of hard work.
I wonder what impact injuries have had during Hughes tenure. Bojan, Butland, and Ryan are high-lighted, but we have also suffered from many others, some very long term and some repeatedly like Shaq. I have repeated said our midfield looks a lot more robust when Cameron plays there are he has had two lengthy outages over the last 2 seasons.
There is also the issues of what we don't know is going on and is not in the public domain. We are often linked with players during transfer windows which never materialise. Some I know are press speculation, but how many are genuine failures to get the man we want. The problem with Imbula's attitude seemed to come to light long after he joined us.
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Post by generationex on Dec 20, 2017 15:18:38 GMT
Great post involving a lot of work.
I think the first real clue was the sale of Huth and an absence of a real replacement. Once it became apparent the club was not capable of replacing those already there adequately it was always a matter of time.
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Post by redwhite on Dec 20, 2017 15:28:10 GMT
The way I look at it, we've slowly but surely got worse in just about every area our team.
Begovic + Butland → Butland + Grant with a lot of Shay Given and Jakob Haugaard thrown in. Downgrade.
Johnson + Bardsley → Johnson post injury + Edwards. Downgrade.
Shawcross + Huth + Wilson + Cameron → Shawcross not what he was + Wollscheid average → Wimmer (looks like a flop) + Cameron + BMI/Zouma both good, Zouma only for a season. Arguably an eventual upgrade, at least on paper.
Pieters + Muniesa → Pieters in a wingback role where he has to attack (which he can't do) + ??. Downgrade.
Nzonzi → Imbula. Downgrade. → Fletcher. Downgrade.
Whelan → Allen. Upgrade.
Arnautovic + Assaidi → Choupo Moting + Jese + Ramadan. Downgrade.
Ireland → Bojan (upgrade) → Bojan injured → No real no. 10 bar a brief experiment with Allen. Downgrade.
Pennant + Walters → Moses + Walters + Diouf → Shaqiri + Diouf. Upgrade.
Diouf + Odemwingie + Crouch + Walters → Diouf (usually played at wing back) + Crouch (even less mobile than he was) + Berahino (looks like a flop) + Choupo Moting/Jese (neither look like strikers). Downgrade.
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Post by alster on Dec 20, 2017 16:08:21 GMT
That was last season what's your excuse for this season. It’s very easy to say he should have gone last summer and he probably should have. Regardless of this season he had enough credit in the bank to stay. The hindsight of this season is a wonderful thing Its only hindsight if you hadn't seen it at the time i believe its called foresight when you did.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 20, 2017 16:20:41 GMT
An excellent OP which I'm sure entailed a lot of hard work. I wonder what impact injuries have had during Hughes tenure. Bojan, Butland, and Ryan are high-lighted, but we have also suffered from many others, some very long term and some repeatedly like Shaq. I have repeated said our midfield looks a lot more robust when Cameron plays there are he has had two lengthy outages over the last 2 seasons. There is also the issues of what we don't know is going on and is not in the public domain. We are often linked with players during transfer windows which never materialise. Some I know are press speculation, but how many are genuine failures to get the man we want. The problem with Imbula's attitude seemed to come to light long after he joined us. The stuff with Geoff is probably down to his age more than anything. You tend to pick up more injuries as you get older, and he's one of the more senior players in our team. We do miss him though, however you could argue the fact he has become a vital part of our team is saying something about our transfer policy. Imbula's attitude could never have been predicted, but we don't know what goes on behind closed doors. I saw a recent image of a post with Imbula liking it about Hughes leaving. Perhaps Imbula would return and play for a different manager and find his good side again? The way I look at it, we've slowly but surely got worse in just about every area our team. Begovic + Butland → Butland + Grant with a lot of Shay Given and Jakob Haugaard thrown in. Downgrade. Johnson + Bardsley → Johnson post injury + Edwards. Downgrade. Shawcross + Huth + Wilson + Cameron → Shawcross not what he was + Wollscheid average → Wimmer (looks like a flop) + Cameron + BMI/Zouma both good, Zouma only for a season. Arguably an eventual upgrade, at least on paper. Pieters + Muniesa → Pieters in a wingback role where he has to attack (which he can't do) + ??. Downgrade. Nzonzi → Imbula. Downgrade. → Fletcher. Downgrade. Whelan → Allen. Upgrade. Arnautovic + Assaidi → Choupo Moting + Jese + Ramadan. Downgrade. Ireland → Bojan (upgrade) → Bojan injured → No real no. 10 bar a brief experiment with Allen. Downgrade. Pennant + Walters → Moses + Walters + Diouf → Shaqiri + Diouf. Upgrade. Diouf + Odemwingie + Crouch + Walters → Diouf (usually played at wing back) + Crouch (even less mobile than he was) + Berahino (looks like a flop) + Choupo Moting/Jese (neither look like strikers). Downgrade. Good post, but there are some thing you have to think about here. We were never likely to keep both Asmir and Jack. Two very gifted goalkeepers, few clubs have two. I'm not sure I agree about Whelan to Allen being an upgrade either. So it is interesting how we all perceive these things.
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Post by toonstokey on Dec 20, 2017 16:29:03 GMT
Pretty simple really, the loss of mr s N’Zonzi who protected the back passed to the front and won nearly everything in the middle. The amount of times I heard lazy sideways and backwards, just simply not been replaced amen
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Post by senojbor on Dec 20, 2017 16:30:41 GMT
I'm scratching my head too. After a truly awesome display against Man City it all started to go wrong a couple of months later .
Looking at the team sheet from that day it makes very interesting reading.
Players that a lot of people don't or didn't rate played a big part. Also a some have left. Whatever the case they don't play now.
Wollscheid, Afellay, Whelan, Bojan, Johnson, Joselu, Arnautovic, Van Ginkel
It seems to suggest to me that the transfer policy of in's and out's have been the problem.
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