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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 21, 2017 7:54:59 GMT
I'm not getting him right now. Clearly a talented player but the mistakes he keeps making are ridiculous.
What the fuck was he doing on their 2nd goal yesterday?
He has to be better than that.
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Post by itsajoytobeapotter on Nov 21, 2017 8:03:28 GMT
Not sure that a back 3 suits him, particularly when Diouf gets caught so far upfield and just wanders back. As for the goal his positioning was shocking.
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Post by Billy the kid on Nov 21, 2017 8:06:32 GMT
His distribution was piss poor last night too. Lost count of how many times he just gave the ball away.
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Post by Danstoke82 on Nov 21, 2017 8:10:57 GMT
No doubt his is a class act but that shocking headed clearance which led to Izquierdo scoring their second equaliser was scandalous.
Saying that the defence last night as a whole was borderline embarrassing. How on Earth was Murray allowed to play that through pass giving Izquierdo two attempts to put it away in the process?!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 8:14:16 GMT
What's to get?
He's a young lad recovering from a bad injury. He looks and is what he is, and has done from day one.
A poor out and out defender with world class physicals that drag him out of any mistakes he does make 9 times out of 10.
That's not me knocking him, as there is more than one way to skin a cat. If he was a top drawer defender he'd be in the Chelsea team and not out on loan.
The other side to it is when he does learn how to defend properly then, with his physique and mobility, he'll be without doubt one of the finest in the world.
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Post by hoofmagic on Nov 21, 2017 8:14:32 GMT
Ask Mr Hughes ?
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Post by Dave the Rave on Nov 21, 2017 8:19:44 GMT
I'm not getting him right now. Clearly a talented player but the mistakes he keeps making are ridiculous. What the fuck was he doing on their 2nd goal yesterday? He has to be better than that. Said the same straight after his mistake and the thread was deleted. Seems lots of people are now forming the same opinion.
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Post by alster on Nov 21, 2017 8:20:24 GMT
Not sure that a back 3 suits him, particularly when Diouf gets caught so far upfield and just wanders back. As for the goal his positioning was shocking. Surely in a 3 at the back him and Wimmer are supposed to go out and cover when the wingback is caught upfield. It was beyond me when commentators kept highlighting that Zouma was having to come out wide to cover for Diouf because Shaq wasn't helping Diouf. They never made that observation on the left because Ramadan is playing as a wingback they expected Shaq to do the same they're supposed to be playing as forwards for gods sake. We need to defend better by attacking better not by dragging every player back into defence.
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Post by Olgrligm on Nov 21, 2017 8:38:15 GMT
He has outstanding physical attributes and is probably the best athlete that we've ever had, but he does seem to have picked up the Marc Wilson doziness gene.
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Post by wuzza on Nov 21, 2017 8:40:12 GMT
Not much point in criticising individuals in defence any more ( I think everyone bar Bruno has been put through the wringer on here now ). It’s got to be the system or the coaching because the players concerned are nowhere near as bad as our goals conceded record suggests. Conceding a lead twice to a team of Brighton’s limited abilities should tell the powers that be everything they need to know.
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Post by Bowyer83 on Nov 21, 2017 8:43:28 GMT
For me why not play him at right wing back. I know he's a beast in size but he has some pace and likes running with the ball. Leaving Diouf to play on the right or up top.
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Post by itsajoytobeapotter on Nov 21, 2017 8:52:27 GMT
Not sure that a back 3 suits him, particularly when Diouf gets caught so far upfield and just wanders back. As for the goal his positioning was shocking. Surely in a 3 at the back him and Wimmer are supposed to go out and cover when the wingback is caught upfield. It was beyond me when commentators kept highlighting that Zouma was having to come out wide to cover for Diouf because Shaq wasn't helping Diouf. They never made that observation on the left because Ramadan is playing as a wingback they expected Shaq to do the same they're supposed to be playing as forwards for gods sake. We need to defend better by attacking better not by dragging every player back into defence. First half in particular though Zooma was faced by 2 on 1s too often down the right side. Wing backs can't just wander back, It's a high energy position.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 21, 2017 9:10:22 GMT
Not much point in criticising individuals in defence any more ( I think everyone bar Bruno has been put through the wringer on here now ). It’s got to be the system or the coaching because the players concerned are nowhere near as bad as our goals conceded record suggests. Conceding a lead twice to a team of Brighton’s limited abilities should tell the powers that be everything they need to know. I'm not sure any manager can legislate for his error and that of a goalkeeper that can't get any party of his body on a shot hit straight at him
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Post by gingerninja on Nov 21, 2017 9:19:15 GMT
It was a basic error but he's learning I guess. It was more criminal how for their first goal how at least 3 of our players either 'bottled' out of tackles or simply went in half arsed. Also why do we never throw to our own players or compete from goal kicks. It was shocking basic schoolboy stuff
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Post by StokeTudoGuy on Nov 21, 2017 9:19:27 GMT
Needs a better RWB to play next to.
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Post by alster on Nov 21, 2017 9:21:03 GMT
Surely in a 3 at the back him and Wimmer are supposed to go out and cover when the wingback is caught upfield. It was beyond me when commentators kept highlighting that Zouma was having to come out wide to cover for Diouf because Shaq wasn't helping Diouf. They never made that observation on the left because Ramadan is playing as a wingback they expected Shaq to do the same they're supposed to be playing as forwards for gods sake. We need to defend better by attacking better not by dragging every player back into defence. First half in particular though Zooma was faced by 2 on 1s too often down the right side. Wing backs can't just wander back, It's a high energy position. What has the responsibility of the wingback got to do with the forwards. My point is you can't just nullify your forwards by saddling them with defensive responsibilities. That's what we've done on the left then commentators call for Shaq to do the same on the right. Neither of our centre mids are creative Choupo isn't a centre forward. How long before we give up attacking altogether and just play a keeper and 10 defenders.
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Post by nott1 on Nov 21, 2017 9:23:51 GMT
I'm not getting him right now. Clearly a talented player but the mistakes he keeps making are ridiculous. What the fuck was he doing on their 2nd goal yesterday? He has to be better than that. You what?
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Post by gingerninja on Nov 21, 2017 9:25:53 GMT
Don't even start me on Diouf at wing back. Last night showed up all his limitations in one game. How we didn't purchase a wing back in the summer is mystifying!!!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 21, 2017 9:28:56 GMT
Should a 23 year old defender not really know how to defend?
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Post by dirtygary69 on Nov 21, 2017 9:30:00 GMT
It's the three at the back that's the problem. The gap in between Zouma and Diouf, which then in turn created a gap between Zouma and Shawcross was criminal. I can't blame either of the back three or the wing backs though. It's not just something you can learn to play when none of the 5 seem entirely comfortable or happy in position.
He should have done loads better with the header and on the whole generally but it's maddening to see how easily we get carved open, even by mediocre sides like Brighton. Our defensive shape makes teams look like Brazil.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 21, 2017 9:30:59 GMT
Should a 23 year old defender not really know how to defend? A 23 year old Ryan shawcross was a far better player than 23 year old Kurt zouma that is for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 9:39:15 GMT
He's an excellent player, but he's like an excitable puppy at times. He just needs to take a deep breath and concentrate more particularly on the defensive side, Ryan needs to be constantly in his ear.....
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 21, 2017 9:41:06 GMT
Great big strapping CBs are not cut out to play FB, where you need someone who is nimble, fast, quick on the turn, capable of running backwards and sideways, etc; FB is a very different role.
Diouf was leaving Zouma massively exposed, which has happened in previous matches but last night Zouma had "a bad day at the office" and was pulled from pillar to post and made to look a chump. I feel for him. Apart from been hung out to dry, he got a nasty smack in the face early in the game to add to his troubles.
Ryan was lucky not to concede a penalty and Grant let the first goal shot go straight through him, but some posters have their agenda and just want to have a go at Wimmer.
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Post by mustbequackers on Nov 21, 2017 9:41:13 GMT
Different player if he had a better RWB next to him. Constantly trying to cover up Dioufs mistakes when caught too far up the pitch.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 9:42:58 GMT
Different player if he had a better RWB next to him. Constantly trying to cover up Dioufs mistakes when caught too far up the pitch. Yet in the last 15 minutes Diouf made 3 tackles in his own box after following his runner? Diouf's not the perfect WB by any stretch but Zouma needs to work on his own game........
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Post by wuzza on Nov 21, 2017 9:44:15 GMT
Not much point in criticising individuals in defence any more ( I think everyone bar Bruno has been put through the wringer on here now ). It’s got to be the system or the coaching because the players concerned are nowhere near as bad as our goals conceded record suggests. Conceding a lead twice to a team of Brighton’s limited abilities should tell the powers that be everything they need to know. I'm not sure any manager can legislate for his error and that of a goalkeeper that can't get any party of his body on a shot hit straight at him Absolutely they can’t but , and it might just be me, but there is a feeling of impending doom every time a team comes at us and there are yawning gaps that even the likes of Brighton are able to exploit. Its been going on for too long for it just to be attributable to the odd individual error. We desperately need a solid base if we are going to avoid a long worrying season ( stating the obvious I know ) and it just doesn’t seem to be getting any closer.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 21, 2017 9:59:37 GMT
I'm not sure any manager can legislate for his error and that of a goalkeeper that can't get any party of his body on a shot hit straight at him Absolutely they can’t but , and it might just be me, but there is a feeling of impending doom every time a team comes at us and there are yawning gaps that even the likes of Brighton are able to exploit. Its been going on for too long for it just to be attributable to the odd individual error. We desperately need a solid base if we are going to avoid a long worrying season ( stating the obvious I know ) and it just doesn’t seem to be getting any closer. I didn't feel that we were under the cosh last night. Did grant have anything to do beyond picking the ball out of the net twice?
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Post by gingerninja on Nov 21, 2017 10:12:50 GMT
I agree Dave we weren't under the cosh but teams seem to open us up so easily..our bench last night didn't really send the pulse racing did it. We have regressed and the squad is a real unbalanced mess. The areas we are deficient in seem glaringly obvious yet never addressed. Like Bellamy said post game we are a 11-14th team..is that pushing on?. Not in my eyes but if the board are happy with that then Hughes is as safe as houses
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 21, 2017 10:15:10 GMT
What's to get? He's a young lad recovering from a bad injury. He looks and is what he is, and has done from day one. A poor out and out defender with world class physicals that drag him out of any mistakes he does make 9 times out of 10. That's not me knocking him, as there is more than one way to skin a cat. If he was a top drawer defender he'd be in the Chelsea team and not out on loan. The other side to it is when he does learn how to defend properly then, with his physique and mobility, he'll be without doubt one of the finest in the world. He won't learn to defend properly under Hughes that is for certain.
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Post by lordb on Nov 21, 2017 10:30:42 GMT
He's shown some very fine defending at times,other times his starting position hasn't been right. Second goal last night was very poor all round with his part being the worst.
Overall I think he's been good.
All defenders make mistakes every single one, the key is keeping mistakes to a minimum.
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