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Post by wannabee on Apr 20, 2024 11:12:39 GMT
Yet another impartial link The Author and Journalist Adam Bienkov is giving his opinion on Rishi's rehashed policy which has been tried and failed before in slightly different guises. As far as Bienkov is concerned his piece is entirely impartial, perhaps not to you so why don't you give us a commentary on why it's such a good idea. What other type of Article did you expect to find on a thread titled "This tory government is incompetent a shambles and !!!!!"?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 20, 2024 11:22:56 GMT
Yet another impartial link It's expressing an opinion or a theory that I happen to agree with. Feel free to provide alternatives.
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Post by essexstokey on Apr 20, 2024 15:14:46 GMT
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Post by gawa on Apr 20, 2024 15:40:49 GMT
Forget the covid fraud and serious crime. Labour are gonna go tough on petty crime.
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Post by wannabee on Apr 20, 2024 16:06:55 GMT
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Post by cvillestokie on Apr 20, 2024 17:21:57 GMT
Forget the covid fraud and serious crime. Labour are gonna go tough on petty crime. Hiring more PCSO’s etc isn’t really being “tough on crime”. PCSO’s have an important function in community engagement. The population is ever growing so of course more staff are always needed.
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Post by gawa on Apr 20, 2024 18:48:26 GMT
I don't think covid fraud is a priority because labour have spent the last few weeks talking about tax avoidance and fraud and covid hasn't been mentioned in those conversations. What they have discussed significantly is benefits fraud. Your article says they hope to bring in 5 billion per year by the end of their term with over half of that from non doms. So why are they talking about benefits fraud? Let's not forget Starmers 10 pledges to be leader either and how they're from a parallel universe compared to his current plans. You don't become pals with Murdoch and a columnist for the sun, spectator politician of the year and attract record levels of donations from millionaires by clamping down on tax avoidance from the elite. There's a correlation between the above and u turning on the 10 pledges he was elected leader over. Some of which being: - Abolishing tuition fees and end the national scandal of spiralling student debt. - The 28 billion green prosperity plan - Common ownership of public services - Raising income tax for highest earners - Raising tax on tech companies - Abolishing the house of lords - Taxing private schools - End NHS outsourcing So I'm sorry if Rachel Reeves saying bi annualy that she's going to reel in covid fraud that I don't believe it. Just like when the tories say for 14 years that they're going to get control of our borders and bring down migration I don't believe it. Their words remind me of a tesco value pastry. Nice and fluffy puff pastry, filled with hot air and on dissection very little filling or meat behind it. What about labours honesty and integrity under Starmer makes you believe that they're going to recoup much from covid fraud? As for focusing on low level shoplifting. A complete waste of police time and resources. 50% of neighbourhoods in England and Wales didn't have a single house burglary solved in 3 years. If tesco are facing more shoplifting through replacing staff with self scan systems then they can introduce more controls to tackle that. We know what this is really about though. It's about being able to come out with some pointless statistic in a few years time to say "under this government we've solved x more crimes than the rest". Ìt won't just be shoplifting it will also be graffiti and cannabis users as starmer has said in the past. Pointless petty crime which won't really benefit any of us and only benefit from it is a few statistics to pull the wool over people's eyes and make them think the governments achieved something.
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Post by wannabee on Apr 20, 2024 19:03:17 GMT
I don't think covid fraud is a priority because labour have spent the last few weeks talking about tax avoidance and fraud and covid hasn't been mentioned in those conversations. What they have discussed significantly is benefits fraud. Your article says they hope to bring in 5 billion per year by the end of their term with over half of that from non doms. So why are they talking about benefits fraud? Let's not forget Starmers 10 pledges to be leader either and how they're from a parallel universe compared to his current plans. You don't become pals with Murdoch and a columnist for the sun, spectator politician of the year and attract record levels of donations from millionaires by clamping down on tax avoidance from the elite. There's a correlation between the above and u turning on the 10 pledges he was elected leader over. Some of which being: - Abolishing tuition fees and end the national scandal of spiralling student debt. - The 28 billion green prosperity plan - Common ownership of public services - Raising income tax for highest earners - Raising tax on tech companies - Abolishing the house of lords - Taxing private schools - End NHS outsourcing So I'm sorry if Rachel Reeves saying bi annualy that she's going to reel in covid fraud that I don't believe it. Just like when the tories say for 14 years that they're going to get control of our borders and bring down migration I don't believe it. Their words remind me of a tesco value pastry. Nice and fluffy puff pastry, filled with hot air and on dissection very little filling or meat behind it. What about labours honesty and integrity under Starmer makes you believe that they're going to recoup much from covid fraud? As for focusing on low level shoplifting. A complete waste of police time and resources. 50% of neighbourhoods in England and Wales didn't have a single house burglary solved in 3 years. If tesco are facing more shoplifting through replacing staff with self scan systems then they can introduce more controls to tackle that. We know what this is really about though. It's about being able to come out with some pointless statistic in a few years time to say "under this government we've solved x more crimes than the rest". Ìt won't just be shoplifting it will also be graffiti and cannabis users as starmer has said in the past. Pointless petty crime which won't really benefit any of us and only benefit from it is a few statistics to pull the wool over people's eyes and make them think the governments achieved something. So you believe what you dislike but disbelieve what you might like OK Let's wait for the Manifesto but more importantly how or if they implement it
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Post by gawa on Apr 20, 2024 19:31:36 GMT
I don't think covid fraud is a priority because labour have spent the last few weeks talking about tax avoidance and fraud and covid hasn't been mentioned in those conversations. What they have discussed significantly is benefits fraud. Your article says they hope to bring in 5 billion per year by the end of their term with over half of that from non doms. So why are they talking about benefits fraud? Let's not forget Starmers 10 pledges to be leader either and how they're from a parallel universe compared to his current plans. You don't become pals with Murdoch and a columnist for the sun, spectator politician of the year and attract record levels of donations from millionaires by clamping down on tax avoidance from the elite. There's a correlation between the above and u turning on the 10 pledges he was elected leader over. Some of which being: - Abolishing tuition fees and end the national scandal of spiralling student debt. - The 28 billion green prosperity plan - Common ownership of public services - Raising income tax for highest earners - Raising tax on tech companies - Abolishing the house of lords - Taxing private schools - End NHS outsourcing So I'm sorry if Rachel Reeves saying bi annualy that she's going to reel in covid fraud that I don't believe it. Just like when the tories say for 14 years that they're going to get control of our borders and bring down migration I don't believe it. Their words remind me of a tesco value pastry. Nice and fluffy puff pastry, filled with hot air and on dissection very little filling or meat behind it. What about labours honesty and integrity under Starmer makes you believe that they're going to recoup much from covid fraud? As for focusing on low level shoplifting. A complete waste of police time and resources. 50% of neighbourhoods in England and Wales didn't have a single house burglary solved in 3 years. If tesco are facing more shoplifting through replacing staff with self scan systems then they can introduce more controls to tackle that. We know what this is really about though. It's about being able to come out with some pointless statistic in a few years time to say "under this government we've solved x more crimes than the rest". Ìt won't just be shoplifting it will also be graffiti and cannabis users as starmer has said in the past. Pointless petty crime which won't really benefit any of us and only benefit from it is a few statistics to pull the wool over people's eyes and make them think the governments achieved something. So you believe what you dislike but disbelieve what you might like OK Let's wait for the Manifesto but more importantly how or if they implement it I don't know what to believe when it comes to what they say in public as Starmer has already shown he's willing to abandon the pledges he was elected leader of the party for. So I'm hardly confident that they're going to stick to whichever manifesto they draw up given how the last leadership manifesto has developed. What I will judge them on is their actions and from grassroots through to NEC they've made a significant shift to the right in the party. I'll be surprised if this isn't replicated in their leadership of the country. If I was in England and if I considered myself left wing then I'd be voting for a left wing party. I wouldn't care if that meant my vote is "wasted" because the main reason people won't vote outside of tory/labour is due to "wasted vote" mindset. Green went from 2% to 9% to 20% to elected in Bristol. So if my vote helped people in the next election consider voting outside of the big two then it would be worth it for me.
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 20, 2024 21:10:30 GMT
So you believe what you dislike but disbelieve what you might like OK Let's wait for the Manifesto but more importantly how or if they implement it I don't know what to believe when it comes to what they say in public as Starmer has already shown he's willing to abandon the pledges he was elected leader of the party for. So I'm hardly confident that they're going to stick to whichever manifesto they draw up given how the last leadership manifesto has developed. What I will judge them on is their actions and from grassroots through to NEC they've made a significant shift to the right in the party. I'll be surprised if this isn't replicated in their leadership of the country. If I was in England and if I considered myself left wing then I'd be voting for a left wing party. I wouldn't care if that meant my vote is "wasted" because the main reason people won't vote outside of tory/labour is due to "wasted vote" mindset. Green went from 2% to 9% to 20% to elected in Bristol. So if my vote helped people in the next election consider voting outside of the big two then it would be worth it for me. The world, and particularly the UK, has significantly changed since Starmer was made leader. His pledges made 5 years ago are not all relevant or affordable now.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Apr 20, 2024 22:03:58 GMT
I don't know what to believe when it comes to what they say in public as Starmer has already shown he's willing to abandon the pledges he was elected leader of the party for. So I'm hardly confident that they're going to stick to whichever manifesto they draw up given how the last leadership manifesto has developed. What I will judge them on is their actions and from grassroots through to NEC they've made a significant shift to the right in the party. I'll be surprised if this isn't replicated in their leadership of the country. If I was in England and if I considered myself left wing then I'd be voting for a left wing party. I wouldn't care if that meant my vote is "wasted" because the main reason people won't vote outside of tory/labour is due to "wasted vote" mindset. Green went from 2% to 9% to 20% to elected in Bristol. So if my vote helped people in the next election consider voting outside of the big two then it would be worth it for me. The world, and particularly the UK, has significantly changed since Starmer was made leader. His pledges made 5 years ago are not all relevant or affordable now. There are many that struggle with this.
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Post by gawa on Apr 20, 2024 22:19:57 GMT
I don't know what to believe when it comes to what they say in public as Starmer has already shown he's willing to abandon the pledges he was elected leader of the party for. So I'm hardly confident that they're going to stick to whichever manifesto they draw up given how the last leadership manifesto has developed. What I will judge them on is their actions and from grassroots through to NEC they've made a significant shift to the right in the party. I'll be surprised if this isn't replicated in their leadership of the country. If I was in England and if I considered myself left wing then I'd be voting for a left wing party. I wouldn't care if that meant my vote is "wasted" because the main reason people won't vote outside of tory/labour is due to "wasted vote" mindset. Green went from 2% to 9% to 20% to elected in Bristol. So if my vote helped people in the next election consider voting outside of the big two then it would be worth it for me. The world, and particularly the UK, has significantly changed since Starmer was made leader. His pledges made 5 years ago are not all relevant or affordable now. I completely agree. But when you think of the state of our public services I'd expect a change towards bringing them back under public ownership rather than a change away from that. I know I'm very critical of starmer but he's very much the prime minister in waiting at the present so he's more relevant than sunak in my opinion.
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Post by gawa on Apr 20, 2024 22:21:46 GMT
The world, and particularly the UK, has significantly changed since Starmer was made leader. His pledges made 5 years ago are not all relevant or affordable now. There are many that struggle with this. 2010 just called, the conservatives want their pro austerity excuses back.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Apr 20, 2024 23:24:35 GMT
There are many that struggle with this. 2010 just called, the conservatives want their pro austerity excuses back. Oh no! Get me to the Deloreon I must've voted for the wrong party in 2010 and 2015. Viva austerity...
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 21, 2024 6:33:02 GMT
I don't know what to believe when it comes to what they say in public as Starmer has already shown he's willing to abandon the pledges he was elected leader of the party for. So I'm hardly confident that they're going to stick to whichever manifesto they draw up given how the last leadership manifesto has developed. What I will judge them on is their actions and from grassroots through to NEC they've made a significant shift to the right in the party. I'll be surprised if this isn't replicated in their leadership of the country. If I was in England and if I considered myself left wing then I'd be voting for a left wing party. I wouldn't care if that meant my vote is "wasted" because the main reason people won't vote outside of tory/labour is due to "wasted vote" mindset. Green went from 2% to 9% to 20% to elected in Bristol. So if my vote helped people in the next election consider voting outside of the big two then it would be worth it for me. The world, and particularly the UK, has significantly changed since Starmer was made leader. His pledges made 5 years ago are not all relevant or affordable now. Sorry I cannot accept that. In 2017 and 2019 we had a chance to transform this country for good and for the benefit of all. Sadly the establishment stepped in and ordinary people fell for the bullshit they were fed along with assasination from so called "socialists" I will never forgive or forget.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 21, 2024 7:14:16 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 21, 2024 8:14:56 GMT
The world, and particularly the UK, has significantly changed since Starmer was made leader. His pledges made 5 years ago are not all relevant or affordable now. Sorry I cannot accept that. In 2017 and 2019 we had a chance to transform this country for good and for the benefit of all. Sadly the establishment stepped in and ordinary people fell for the bullshit they were fed along with assasination from so called "socialists" I will never forgive or forget. So you think the impacts of Brexit, Covid, Ukraine/Russia and more recently Israel/Palestine on our country should have no impact on policy? Also Starmer backed Corbyn. He turned on him when he realised that the only way to have a Labour government in a FPTP system was to sell out Corbyn.
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 21, 2024 8:18:15 GMT
The world, and particularly the UK, has significantly changed since Starmer was made leader. His pledges made 5 years ago are not all relevant or affordable now. I completely agree. But when you think of the state of our public services I'd expect a change towards bringing them back under public ownership rather than a change away from that. I know I'm very critical of starmer but he's very much the prime minister in waiting at the present so he's more relevant than sunak in my opinion. I agree with you about nationalising monopolised essential services. I want to see what Starmer says in his manifesto about this. I also think it is more complex than we all assume it is. You can’t just do it. Else the whole thing gets stuck in the courts for years and there will be legal challenges etc. the cost of that falling on tax payers. If Starmer makes a pledge, the Tories then say “where are you getting the £X billions to buy out the private companies?” and it feeds into an easy attack line. Politics has to be played, particularly in FPTP.
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Post by atillathehoneybee on Apr 21, 2024 8:20:15 GMT
I don't think covid fraud is a priority because labour have spent the last few weeks talking about tax avoidance and fraud and covid hasn't been mentioned in those conversations. What they have discussed significantly is benefits fraud. Your article says they hope to bring in 5 billion per year by the end of their term with over half of that from non doms. So why are they talking about benefits fraud? Let's not forget Starmers 10 pledges to be leader either and how they're from a parallel universe compared to his current plans. You don't become pals with Murdoch and a columnist for the sun, spectator politician of the year and attract record levels of donations from millionaires by clamping down on tax avoidance from the elite. There's a correlation between the above and u turning on the 10 pledges he was elected leader over. Some of which being: - Abolishing tuition fees and end the national scandal of spiralling student debt. - The 28 billion green prosperity plan - Common ownership of public services - Raising income tax for highest earners - Raising tax on tech companies - Abolishing the house of lords - Taxing private schools - End NHS outsourcing So I'm sorry if Rachel Reeves saying bi annualy that she's going to reel in covid fraud that I don't believe it. Just like when the tories say for 14 years that they're going to get control of our borders and bring down migration I don't believe it. Their words remind me of a tesco value pastry. Nice and fluffy puff pastry, filled with hot air and on dissection very little filling or meat behind it. What about labours honesty and integrity under Starmer makes you believe that they're going to recoup much from covid fraud? As for focusing on low level shoplifting. A complete waste of police time and resources. 50% of neighbourhoods in England and Wales didn't have a single house burglary solved in 3 years. If tesco are facing more shoplifting through replacing staff with self scan systems then they can introduce more controls to tackle that. We know what this is really about though. It's about being able to come out with some pointless statistic in a few years time to say "under this government we've solved x more crimes than the rest". Ìt won't just be shoplifting it will also be graffiti and cannabis users as starmer has said in the past. Pointless petty crime which won't really benefit any of us and only benefit from it is a few statistics to pull the wool over people's eyes and make them think the governments achieved something. Tax evading Tory scum. Starmer should prioritize hitting the tax evaders, maybe appoint a Tax Fraud Tsar...Time for Angela Raynor to step up to the plate and take this role on..
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 21, 2024 8:33:32 GMT
Sorry I cannot accept that. In 2017 and 2019 we had a chance to transform this country for good and for the benefit of all. Sadly the establishment stepped in and ordinary people fell for the bullshit they were fed along with assasination from so called "socialists" I will never forgive or forget. So you think the impacts of Brexit, Covid, Ukraine/Russia and more recently Israel/Palestine on our country should have no impact on policy? Also Starmer backed Corbyn. He turned on him when he realised that the only way to have a Labour government in a FPTP system was to sell out Corbyn. He was plotting to overthrow Corbyn in 2016 mate.
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Post by wannabee on Apr 21, 2024 9:44:40 GMT
The world, and particularly the UK, has significantly changed since Starmer was made leader. His pledges made 5 years ago are not all relevant or affordable now. I completely agree. But when you think of the state of our public services I'd expect a change towards bringing them back under public ownership rather than a change away from that. I know I'm very critical of starmer but he's very much the prime minister in waiting at the present so he's more relevant than sunak in my opinion. The reality is the UK Economy is trapped in a cycle of low growth since the 2008 Financial Crash and in stagnation for the last 2 years. This stems from low Productivity due to Low Public and Private Investment. Anyone that tells you about Sunlit Uplands is giving you a load of Bullshit. Why we are where we're are comes from a combination of poor decisions and external factors beyond control. Austerity at a time of historically low interest rates was precisely the opposite of what should have happened, Brexit whatever you may think of it was a disruptor to Industry before and after, business decisions were put on hold awaiting the outcome and supply chains disrupted after. Even it's most ardent fans say it will take 10 years to see it's Benefits, again if you believe that. COVID and Ukraine and now Mid East War are further disruptors to Energy Supply and cost and supply chains. UK Debt is more than £2.5 Trillion, Liz Truss Mini Budget spooked the Markets as she attempted to give away £45Bn in unfunded Tax Cuts to create a Trickle Down stimulus and it pushed up Interest Rates 2%/3%. UK Government spends about ££1.2 Trillion Annually of which over £180Bn is spent on NHS. The annual cost of servicing UK Debt is at a 20 year high at £23Bn It is highly desirable for UK Utilities to be in Public Ownership, is it the number one priority, in my opinion no. Take Water as an example the Combined Valuation of the Water Companies is about £80Bn We are not a Totalitarian State, yet, so to take on that Debt service would cost about £4.Bn per annum. In the last accounts declared the combined profits of the Water Companies was £1.7Bn so it makes no Economic sense as a priority. That doesn't mean that you can't resource Ofwat to regulate the Industry properly and cap dividends to after infrastructure investment required. With little Fiscal Space the investment priority needs to be on Green Emerging Markets with Public and Private Investment. There is a grave danger of UK falling further behind because US and EU are providing hundreds of Millions of $ and € of incentives, the flight risk of UK Companies is very real and Rachel Reeves acknowledged that in her recent Mais Lecture. A stopped clock is correct twice a day and Liz Truss wasn't wrong when she pointed to growth as the way out of the UK Economy downward spiral, the problem was she had no f'kin clue how to achieve it. After 14 year of corruption, sleaze and mismanagement understandably people are tired and want something better. I'm no particular fan of Starmer but I'll take dull and pragmatic combined with smart and fair monetary decisions based on the fiscal space available.
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 21, 2024 10:04:32 GMT
So you think the impacts of Brexit, Covid, Ukraine/Russia and more recently Israel/Palestine on our country should have no impact on policy? Also Starmer backed Corbyn. He turned on him when he realised that the only way to have a Labour government in a FPTP system was to sell out Corbyn. He was plotting to overthrow Corbyn in 2016 mate. He didn’t overthrow him though did he. Corbyn was rejected and Starmer elected leader. He has since turned around the polls from potentially 2 or 3 more tory governments to almost certainly a Labour government in one of the most amazing turnarounds in history. In order to do that, he had to sell out Corbyn. He cannot commit to pledges made 5 years ago when the world and the UK has changed massively since then.
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Post by cvillestokie on Apr 21, 2024 12:18:33 GMT
He was plotting to overthrow Corbyn in 2016 mate. He didn’t overthrow him though did he. Corbyn was rejected and Starmer elected leader. He has since turned around the polls from potentially 2 or 3 more tory governments to almost certainly a Labour government in one of the most amazing turnarounds in history. In order to do that, he had to sell out Corbyn. He cannot commit to pledges made 5 years ago when the world and the UK has changed massively since then. It’s not like he’s decided to now lead a party in a different country though. You think he’d be able to keep some of them 😂. He’s going to be awful for the country - just another toff.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 21, 2024 12:46:44 GMT
He was plotting to overthrow Corbyn in 2016 mate. He didn’t overthrow him though did he. Corbyn was rejected and Starmer elected leader. He has since turned around the polls from potentially 2 or 3 more tory governments to almost certainly a Labour government in one of the most amazing turnarounds in history. In order to do that, he had to sell out Corbyn. He cannot commit to pledges made 5 years ago when the world and the UK has changed massively since then. Your understanding of history is totally different to mine. If you expect anything to change for the better under Starmer then I think you're going to be very disappointed. I'll leave it there.
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 21, 2024 12:50:32 GMT
He didn’t overthrow him though did he. Corbyn was rejected and Starmer elected leader. He has since turned around the polls from potentially 2 or 3 more tory governments to almost certainly a Labour government in one of the most amazing turnarounds in history. In order to do that, he had to sell out Corbyn. He cannot commit to pledges made 5 years ago when the world and the UK has changed massively since then. It’s not like he’s decided to now lead a party in a different country though. You think he’d be able to keep some of them 😂. He’s going to be awful for the country - just another toff. He isn’t a toff. He is middle class. He may keep some. He may have decided other things take priority. We will have to wait for his manifesto.
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 21, 2024 12:54:45 GMT
He didn’t overthrow him though did he. Corbyn was rejected and Starmer elected leader. He has since turned around the polls from potentially 2 or 3 more tory governments to almost certainly a Labour government in one of the most amazing turnarounds in history. In order to do that, he had to sell out Corbyn. He cannot commit to pledges made 5 years ago when the world and the UK has changed massively since then. Your understanding of history is totally different to mine. If you expect anything to change for the better under Starmer then I think you're going to be very disappointed. I'll leave it there. I don’t think even you really think that. There are many examples, but the tories would not have changed the rules on non-doms if not for Starmer and Starmer isn’t even in power yet. VAT on private school fees, Great British Energy a state owned green energy company. So I am expecting most things to change for the better, but that isn’t asking for much compared to what is going on now. My understanding is Corbyn lost two elections and labour changed leader and elected Starmer. He didn’t overthrow Corbyn as you have suggested. Brexit, Covid, war - they all impact policy whether you like it or not. Starmer would be idiotic to just pretend it is 2019/2020 when he made his pledges and to ignore reality.
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 21, 2024 13:05:12 GMT
He didn’t overthrow him though did he. Corbyn was rejected and Starmer elected leader. He has since turned around the polls from potentially 2 or 3 more tory governments to almost certainly a Labour government in one of the most amazing turnarounds in history. In order to do that, he had to sell out Corbyn. He cannot commit to pledges made 5 years ago when the world and the UK has changed massively since then. Your understanding of history is totally different to mine. If you expect anything to change for the better under Starmer then I think you're going to be very disappointed. I'll leave it there. You really think labour are going to have cuts for the disabled in their manifesto? Labour and Tory are different. Just not as different if Corbyn led the Labour Party. www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/21/help-disabled-people-england-wales-jobs-axed-benefits-crackdown
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 21, 2024 14:41:27 GMT
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Post by cvillestokie on Apr 21, 2024 14:43:27 GMT
Should stand down in a jail cell.
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Post by gawa on Apr 21, 2024 14:58:40 GMT
Was it not Yvette Cooper who introduced fit to work tests which have resulted in many disabled people being refused benefits? Let's talk about some of the things Labour did under Blair (no i havent quoted every tweet from this thread. Less tban 20% are below):
I think there's a bit of recent bias being applied when it comes to Tony Blairs reign. Wasn't so long ago that Blair wanted to withdraw from parts of the EHCR - www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tony-blair-labour-asylum-echr-b2470463.htmlLet's not forget when Starmer listed 3 ex pms he wanted to emulate, 2 of those were Blair and Thatcher.
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