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Post by felonious on Mar 31, 2018 18:44:35 GMT
It's a tough one for the EU. They want one huge single union across the continent of Europe. Repression comes in various forms including second votes for countries that don't get it right first time.
Spain has always been a fractious union but I had thought that the EU influence since membership meant that we would never see the disgraceful thuggery and repression witnessed in Catalonia. Scotland really ought to support this woman.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 2, 2018 16:55:31 GMT
It's a tough one for the EU. They want one huge single union across the continent of Europe. Repression comes in various forms including second votes for countries that don't get it right first time.
Spain has always been a fractious union but I had thought that the EU influence since membership meant that we would never see the disgraceful thuggery and repression witnessed in Catalonia. Scotland really ought to support this woman.
IMAGINE the scenario in an autonomous national region within the Russian Federation. A majority of eIlected deputies in the region’s parliament have decided to hold a referendum on independence from Moscow. President Vladimir Putin, the Russian government and the courts declare that the referendum contravenes the Russian constitution. But the regionalists (or “nationalists,” as some call themselves) go ahead and hold it anyway. The majority of electors stay away from the ballot, as national police forces try to close polling stations by force, while the overwhelming majority of voters choose separation. Subsequently, the separatist leadership announces independence but refuses to confirm its decision unequivocally to the Moscow authorities, who then impose direct rule, dissolve the regional parliament and order fresh elections in which the regionalists win a majority. Despite this, regionalist leaders are accused of fomenting rebellion — although they have no record of inciting violence — and some flee the country as others are arrested to face trial and very long prison sentences. The Russian government applies for international warrants to have the exiles detained and sent back to Russia for trial. Throughout such developments, would most European and other Western governments have remained silent, or said nothing more than that the Russian constitution should be upheld? Rather more likely, the air would have been thick with denunciations of Putin thuggery and heavy-handedness. The arrests would have been seen as proof of Putin’s authoritarian rule, aided and abetted by the Moscow regime’s judicial puppets. The international arrest warrants would have been contemptuously rejected with lectures about the West’s cherished democratic values and freedoms. But these developments refer to Spain and Catalonia, not to some region in Russia — hence the absence of international outrage. It is the right-wing Spanish government which sends in police mobs, dissolves elected assemblies, arrests and imprisons non-violent politicians and seeks to keep them in jail for years on end. And it is Western governments and the EU which issue barely a squeak of criticism of the Madrid authorities. www.morningstaronline.co.uk/article/spanish-repression-should-cease-%E2%80%93-along-western-silence-which-colludes-it
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Post by felonious on Apr 2, 2018 17:44:50 GMT
It's a tough one for the EU. They want one huge single union across the continent of Europe. Repression comes in various forms including second votes for countries that don't get it right first time.
Spain has always been a fractious union but I had thought that the EU influence since membership meant that we would never see the disgraceful thuggery and repression witnessed in Catalonia. Scotland really ought to support this woman.
IMAGINE the scenario in an autonomous national region within the Russian Federation. A majority of eIlected deputies in the region’s parliament have decided to hold a referendum on independence from Moscow. President Vladimir Putin, the Russian government and the courts declare that the referendum contravenes the Russian constitution. But the regionalists (or “nationalists,” as some call themselves) go ahead and hold it anyway. The majority of electors stay away from the ballot, as national police forces try to close polling stations by force, while the overwhelming majority of voters choose separation. Subsequently, the separatist leadership announces independence but refuses to confirm its decision unequivocally to the Moscow authorities, who then impose direct rule, dissolve the regional parliament and order fresh elections in which the regionalists win a majority. Despite this, regionalist leaders are accused of fomenting rebellion — although they have no record of inciting violence — and some flee the country as others are arrested to face trial and very long prison sentences. The Russian government applies for international warrants to have the exiles detained and sent back to Russia for trial. Throughout such developments, would most European and other Western governments have remained silent, or said nothing more than that the Russian constitution should be upheld? Rather more likely, the air would have been thick with denunciations of Putin thuggery and heavy-handedness. The arrests would have been seen as proof of Putin’s authoritarian rule, aided and abetted by the Moscow regime’s judicial puppets. The international arrest warrants would have been contemptuously rejected with lectures about the West’s cherished democratic values and freedoms. But these developments refer to Spain and Catalonia, not to some region in Russia — hence the absence of international outrage. It is the right-wing Spanish government which sends in police mobs, dissolves elected assemblies, arrests and imprisons non-violent politicians and seeks to keep them in jail for years on end. And it is Western governments and the EU which issue barely a squeak of criticism of the Madrid authorities. www.morningstaronline.co.uk/article/spanish-repression-should-cease-%E2%80%93-along-western-silence-which-colludes-itThe funny thing is BigJohn one of the things that's always used in favour of EU membership is the superior stance on human rights. It's tragically missing in respect of Catalonia. It's also sad that the UK government is keeping very quiet although that may well be due to the nature of current negotiations and Gibraltar.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 2, 2018 17:46:38 GMT
IMAGINE the scenario in an autonomous national region within the Russian Federation. A majority of eIlected deputies in the region’s parliament have decided to hold a referendum on independence from Moscow. President Vladimir Putin, the Russian government and the courts declare that the referendum contravenes the Russian constitution. But the regionalists (or “nationalists,” as some call themselves) go ahead and hold it anyway. The majority of electors stay away from the ballot, as national police forces try to close polling stations by force, while the overwhelming majority of voters choose separation. Subsequently, the separatist leadership announces independence but refuses to confirm its decision unequivocally to the Moscow authorities, who then impose direct rule, dissolve the regional parliament and order fresh elections in which the regionalists win a majority. Despite this, regionalist leaders are accused of fomenting rebellion — although they have no record of inciting violence — and some flee the country as others are arrested to face trial and very long prison sentences. The Russian government applies for international warrants to have the exiles detained and sent back to Russia for trial. Throughout such developments, would most European and other Western governments have remained silent, or said nothing more than that the Russian constitution should be upheld? Rather more likely, the air would have been thick with denunciations of Putin thuggery and heavy-handedness. The arrests would have been seen as proof of Putin’s authoritarian rule, aided and abetted by the Moscow regime’s judicial puppets. The international arrest warrants would have been contemptuously rejected with lectures about the West’s cherished democratic values and freedoms. But these developments refer to Spain and Catalonia, not to some region in Russia — hence the absence of international outrage. It is the right-wing Spanish government which sends in police mobs, dissolves elected assemblies, arrests and imprisons non-violent politicians and seeks to keep them in jail for years on end. And it is Western governments and the EU which issue barely a squeak of criticism of the Madrid authorities. www.morningstaronline.co.uk/article/spanish-repression-should-cease-%E2%80%93-along-western-silence-which-colludes-itThe funny thing is BigJohn one of the things that's always used in favour of EU membership is the superior stance on human rights. It's tragically missing in respect of Catalonia. It's also sad that the UK government is keeping very quiet although that may well be due to the nature of current negotiations and Gibraltar. And the Scottish government have a predicament Felonious
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Post by felonious on Apr 2, 2018 17:48:35 GMT
The funny thing is BigJohn one of the things that's always used in favour of EU membership is the superior stance on human rights. It's tragically missing in respect of Catalonia. It's also sad that the UK government is keeping very quiet although that may well be due to the nature of current negotiations and Gibraltar. And the Scottish government have a predicament Felonious The SNP want independence and the EU. Politics eh, don't you just hate it.
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Catalonia
Feb 10, 2019 18:50:06 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 10, 2019 18:50:06 GMT
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Catalonia
Jul 25, 2019 6:51:47 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 25, 2019 6:51:47 GMT
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Catalonia
Oct 14, 2019 19:04:06 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 14, 2019 19:04:06 GMT
As with BREXIT, Scottish independence, the Irish question, Mandela, Gandhi much of people's concerns are to do with self-identity, democracy, sovereignty and power( not trade).
The Catalonian issue will cause more / as many problems across Europe and for the EU who assume influence as BREXIT. A view from Sinn Fein !!!!
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Oct 15, 2019 9:55:43 GMT
As with BREXIT, Scottish independence, the Irish question, Mandela, Gandhi much of people's concerns are to do with self-identity, democracy, sovereignty and power( not trade). The Catalonian issue will cause more / as many problems across Europe and for the EU who assume influence as BREXIT. A view from Sinn Fein !!!! Deep down, do you really believe Brexit is at all remotely similar to India's independence movement and South Africa's fight against apartheid?
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Catalonia
Oct 15, 2019 10:28:54 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2019 10:28:54 GMT
As with BREXIT, Scottish independence, the Irish question, Mandela, Gandhi much of people's concerns are to do with self-identity, democracy, sovereignty and power( not trade). The Catalonian issue will cause more / as many problems across Europe and for the EU who assume influence as BREXIT. A view from Sinn Fein !!!! Deep down, do you really believe Brexit is at all remotely similar to India's independence movement and South Africa's fight against apartheid? Deep down I believe what I have posted. I don't think that I have said that they are similar in every way. People in general want self determination and will fight for it. Oppression and control can take many forms, individual, marital, political, psychological etc. A people's history and identity are important to them. Gandhi and Mandela were arrested, imprisoned ... perhaps the Cantalonia prisoners will be seen as the same in the future.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Oct 15, 2019 11:02:46 GMT
Deep down, do you really believe Brexit is at all remotely similar to India's independence movement and South Africa's fight against apartheid? Deep down I believe what I have posted. I don't think that I have said that they are similar in every way. People in general want self determination and will fight for it. Oppression and control can take many forms, individual, marital, political, psychological etc. A people's history and identity are important to them. Gandhi and Mandela were arrested, imprisoned ... perhaps the Cantalonia prisoners will be seen as the same in the future.Certainly there are similarities between Catalunya and previous bids for independence. I'm just not sure how Brexit slipped in there.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2019 11:09:48 GMT
Deep down I believe what I have posted. I don't think that I have said that they are similar in every way. People in general want self determination and will fight for it. Oppression and control can take many forms, individual, marital, political, psychological etc. A people's history and identity are important to them. Gandhi and Mandela were arrested, imprisoned ... perhaps the Cantalonia prisoners will be seen as the same in the future.Certainly there are similarities between Catalunya and previous bids for independence. I'm just not sure how Brexit slipped in there. Identity, sovereignty, self governance, struggle, independence
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 23:11:14 GMT
SNP?
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Catalonia
Oct 16, 2019 22:51:44 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 16, 2019 22:51:44 GMT
Don't know if it is true that someone has died?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2019 6:15:23 GMT
Don't know if it is true that someone has died? There was a couple of minutes coverage of this on the BBC news this morning but no mention of any fatality. This renewal of the protest looks like it's set to run for a while longer.
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Catalonia
Oct 21, 2019 6:33:03 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2019 6:33:03 GMT
Not very nice scenes from Catalonia. Surely in the 21st century in Western Europe this issue could have been handled differently. A referendum on Independence would have decided the matter? I've seen some reports that said that the independence movement would not win a referendum....so what is Spain afraid of/ what are the arguments against?
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Post by lordb on Oct 21, 2019 11:14:52 GMT
Deep down, do you really believe Brexit is at all remotely similar to India's independence movement and South Africa's fight against apartheid? Deep down I believe what I have posted. I don't think that I have said that they are similar in every way. People in general want self determination and will fight for it. Oppression and control can take many forms, individual, marital, political, psychological etc. A people's history and identity are important to them. Gandhi and Mandela were arrested, imprisoned ... perhaps the Cantalonia prisoners will be seen as the same in the future. They aren't similar in any way we have self determination we are not oppressed by the EU
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Oct 21, 2019 14:08:48 GMT
Certainly there are similarities between Catalunya and previous bids for independence. I'm just not sure how Brexit slipped in there. Identity, sovereignty, self governance, struggle, independence
But the others mentioned were fighting against oppression forced upon them and at times it was oppression that caused death, destruction, slavery etc. for generations of people in those countries.
Likening us being a member of the EU (which we willingly and voluntarily signed up for) and wanting to leave is nothing like the other examples mentioned. To group them all together as such is crass, ridiculous, insulting to the people of India and South Africa (who were fighting against a little more than trying to get better trade agreements so their morning Starbucks may be a few pence cheaper) and is trying to turn a political matter (whereas the other examples were also matters of human rights at times) into some kind of worthy "cause".
Us "fighting" to leave the EU so we can have more control over immigration, our own trade agreements etc. etc. is absolutely NOTHING like, zilch, zero, not even close to resembling people around the world fighting to just be allowed to live freely without being beaten, lynched, having their families raped and tortured, their homes stolen and/or razed to the ground and murdered.
Utterly ludicrous to lump Brexit in with the likes of Gandhi and Mandela. Ours is a "fight" to make our lives better; theirs (and many others') were fights to just be allowed to even live at all!
To somehow conflate them all is tabloid sensationalism at it's best! "They were fighting for something, we are fighting for something...must all be the same kinda thing then". Idiotic!
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Catalonia
Oct 21, 2019 15:41:48 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2019 15:41:48 GMT
Deep down I believe what I have posted. I don't think that I have said that they are similar in every way. People in general want self determination and will fight for it. Oppression and control can take many forms, individual, marital, political, psychological etc. A people's history and identity are important to them. Gandhi and Mandela were arrested, imprisoned ... perhaps the Cantalonia prisoners will be seen as the same in the future. They aren't similar in any way we have self determination we are not oppressed by the EU Happy to disagree with you on that Lord
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Catalonia
Oct 21, 2019 15:42:49 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2019 15:42:49 GMT
Identity, sovereignty, self governance, struggle, independence But the others mentioned were fighting against oppression forced upon them and at times it was oppression that caused death, destruction, slavery etc. for generations of people in those countries.
Likening us being a member of the EU (which we willingly and voluntarily signed up for) and wanting to leave is nothing like the other examples mentioned. To group them all together as such is crass, ridiculous, insulting to the people of India and South Africa (who were fighting against a little more than trying to get better trade agreements so their morning Starbucks may be a few pence cheaper) and is trying to turn a political matter (whereas the other examples were also matters of human rights at times) into some kind of worthy "cause". Us "fighting" to leave the EU so we can have more control over immigration, our own trade agreements etc. etc. is absolutely NOTHING like, zilch, zero, not even close to resembling people around the world fighting to just be allowed to live freely without being beaten, lynched, having their families raped and tortured, their homes stolen and/or razed to the ground and murdered. Utterly ludicrous to lump Brexit in with the likes of Gandhi and Mandela. Ours is a "fight" to make our lives better; theirs (and many others') were fights to just be allowed to even live at all! To somehow conflate them all is tabloid sensationalism at it's best! "They were fighting for something, we are fighting for something...must all be the same kinda thing then". Idiotic!
Happy to disagree with you on that Mick
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Oct 21, 2019 15:45:23 GMT
But the others mentioned were fighting against oppression forced upon them and at times it was oppression that caused death, destruction, slavery etc. for generations of people in those countries.
Likening us being a member of the EU (which we willingly and voluntarily signed up for) and wanting to leave is nothing like the other examples mentioned. To group them all together as such is crass, ridiculous, insulting to the people of India and South Africa (who were fighting against a little more than trying to get better trade agreements so their morning Starbucks may be a few pence cheaper) and is trying to turn a political matter (whereas the other examples were also matters of human rights at times) into some kind of worthy "cause". Us "fighting" to leave the EU so we can have more control over immigration, our own trade agreements etc. etc. is absolutely NOTHING like, zilch, zero, not even close to resembling people around the world fighting to just be allowed to live freely without being beaten, lynched, having their families raped and tortured, their homes stolen and/or razed to the ground and murdered. Utterly ludicrous to lump Brexit in with the likes of Gandhi and Mandela. Ours is a "fight" to make our lives better; theirs (and many others') were fights to just be allowed to even live at all! To somehow conflate them all is tabloid sensationalism at it's best! "They were fighting for something, we are fighting for something...must all be the same kinda thing then". Idiotic!
Happy to disagree with you on that Mick
So you disagree that the things we are "fighting" for (and by "Fighting" i mean old rich twats arguing in the HoC, as opposed to India and South Africa where innocent people actually were losing their lives on a daily basis) are completely different to what Gandhi and Mandela were fighting for? You think they're actually comparable do you?
It's frankly disgusting to liken Brexit to the troubles suffered by people who actually were oppressed in India and South Africa....and by the way, we are NOT oppressed by the EU. No one is forcing us against our will. We entered into it of our own volition, we are now leaving of our own volition. The ONLY people holding it up are rich twats in the HoC. We are not "fighting" against oppression at all! If anything, people are unhappy with OUR OWN parliament currently as it's them who are dragging their heels. Whether you like the EU or not, to call it oppression is fucking insulting to people who actually are being oppressed around the world.
People need to take their privileged, safe, used to luxury, first world entitled heads out of their arse sometimes and remember Brexit is NOT some bloody hardship that is leading to slavery, murder or deaths in the thousands. It's a political game being played out by countries who are already living in freedom and wealth but just want more of it. It's inconvenient yes, but to describe it as a "fight" is ridiculous in the first place and to liken it to the situations in India and South Africa over the centuries is just pathetic sensationalism which doesn't take fact or context into any kind of account.
Really, really poor taste.
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Catalonia
Oct 21, 2019 16:06:05 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2019 16:06:05 GMT
Happy to disagree with you on that Mick So you disagree that the things we are "fighting" for (and by "Fighting" i mean old rich twats arguing in the HoC, as opposed to India and South Africa where innocent people actually were losing their lives on a daily basis) are completely different to what Gandhi and Mandela were fighting for? You think they're actually comparable do you? It's frankly disgusting to liken Brexit to the troubles suffered by people who actually were oppressed in India and South Africa....and by the way, we are NOT oppressed by the EU. No one is forcing us against our will. We entered into it of our own volition, we are now leaving of our own volition. The ONLY people holding it up are rich twats in the HoC. We are not "fighting" against oppression at all! If anything, people are unhappy with OUR OWN parliament currently as it's them who are dragging their heels. Whether you like the EU or not, to call it oppression is fucking insulting to people who actually are being oppressed around the world. People need to take their privileged, safe, used to luxury, first world entitled heads out of their arse sometimes and remember Brexit is NOT some bloody hardship that is leading to slavery, murder or deaths in the thousands. It's a political game being played out by countries who are already living in freedom and wealth but just want more of it. It's inconvenient yes, but to describe it as a "fight" is ridiculous in the first place and to liken it to the situations in India and South Africa over the centuries is just pathetic sensationalism which doesn't take fact or context into any kind of account. Really, really poor taste.
What I am saying is that all people want self determination, Identity , freedom. Of course there are different degrees and different consequences. I did also mention someone in an abusive , controlling marriage. The SNP. and Sinn Fein also believe that they are fighting for similar concepts. Marx talked about the oppression of the proletariat. It does not mean that the struggles/ fights are similar in every way, just that there are similar themes.... perhaps you wanted to interpret it that way
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Oct 21, 2019 16:26:47 GMT
So you disagree that the things we are "fighting" for (and by "Fighting" i mean old rich twats arguing in the HoC, as opposed to India and South Africa where innocent people actually were losing their lives on a daily basis) are completely different to what Gandhi and Mandela were fighting for? You think they're actually comparable do you? It's frankly disgusting to liken Brexit to the troubles suffered by people who actually were oppressed in India and South Africa....and by the way, we are NOT oppressed by the EU. No one is forcing us against our will. We entered into it of our own volition, we are now leaving of our own volition. The ONLY people holding it up are rich twats in the HoC. We are not "fighting" against oppression at all! If anything, people are unhappy with OUR OWN parliament currently as it's them who are dragging their heels. Whether you like the EU or not, to call it oppression is fucking insulting to people who actually are being oppressed around the world. People need to take their privileged, safe, used to luxury, first world entitled heads out of their arse sometimes and remember Brexit is NOT some bloody hardship that is leading to slavery, murder or deaths in the thousands. It's a political game being played out by countries who are already living in freedom and wealth but just want more of it. It's inconvenient yes, but to describe it as a "fight" is ridiculous in the first place and to liken it to the situations in India and South Africa over the centuries is just pathetic sensationalism which doesn't take fact or context into any kind of account. Really, really poor taste.
What I am saying is that all people want self determination, Identity , freedom. Of course there are different degrees and different consequences. I did also mention someone in an abusive , controlling marriage. The SNP. and Sinn Fein also believe that they are fighting for similar concepts. Marx talked about the oppression of the proletariat. It does not mean that the struggles/ fights are similar in every way, just that there are similar themes.... perhaps you wanted to interpret it that way
1) We do have freedom..if we didn't then we wouldn't be allowed to leave the EU. WE CAN,all you need to do is invoke a now famed article and the process begins..no-one has to die and there don't even need to be wars. You literally just ask! It isn't the EU stopping us, it's the parliament of THIS country (y'know the one's that are apparently trying to get us this "freedom" that are holding up that "freedom" themselves) - Same kind of freedom being fought for by Gandhi's and Mandela's compatriots? Well, we're all "fighting" so i guess it must be eh?
2) We DO have identity. My passport says British, i am a British citizen who adheres to British laws and uses British currency...like all British people. I don't adhere to Germany's laws or Frances etc. etc. (All member states have their own laws, it's not as if every EU member adheres to one central rule of law that binds all member states. We decide our own laws and the EU member states simply ratify those laws...same that happens with every other member state)
3) Sovereignty...we also have that in an equal way to all other member states (again ,we chose to join "Europe" and buy into that. It wasn't forced on anyone.)
All you've done is thought "Well the word FIGHT is used in all of those causes, so we can clump them all together" which is really, really poor.
As i said earlier, crass! There are literally millions of innocent people that died in India and South Africa over the centuries, literlly hundreds of thousands of women that have been permanently traumatised or died through abusive relationships and you don't see how likening their struggles to fucking Brexit (i.e. a few dozen old, rich, privileged blokes arguing in a building) may seem a tad ridiculous and insulting?
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Catalonia
Oct 21, 2019 16:30:16 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2019 16:30:16 GMT
What I am saying is that all people want self determination, Identity , freedom. Of course there are different degrees and different consequences. I did also mention someone in an abusive , controlling marriage. The SNP. and Sinn Fein also believe that they are fighting for similar concepts. Marx talked about the oppression of the proletariat. It does not mean that the struggles/ fights are similar in every way, just that there are similar themes.... perhaps you wanted to interpret it that way 1) We do have freedom..if we didn't then we wouldn't be allowed to leave the EU. WE CAN,all you need to do is invoke a now famed article and the process begins..no-one has to die and there don't even need to be wars. You literally just ask! It isn't the EU stopping us, it's the parliament of THIS country (y'know the one's that are apparently trying to get us this "freedom" that are holding up that "freedom" themselves) - Same kind of freedom being fought for by Gandhi's and Mandela's compatriots? Well, we're all "fighting" so i guess it must be eh?
2) We DO have identity. My passport says British, i am a British citizen who adheres to British laws and uses British currency...like all British people. I don't adhere to Germany's laws or Frances etc. etc. (All member states have their own laws, it's not as if every EU member adheres to one central rule of law that binds all member states. We decide our own laws and the EU member states simply ratify those laws...same that happens with every other member state)
3) Sovereignty...we also have that in an equal way to all other member states (again ,we chose to join "Europe" and buy into that. It wasn't forced on anyone.) All you've done is thought "Well the word FIGHT is used in all of those causes, so we can clump them all together" which is really, really poor. As i said earlier, crass! There are literally millions of innocent people that died in India and South Africa over the centuries, literlly hundreds of thousands of women that have been permanently traumatised or died through abusive relationships and you don't see how likening their struggles to fucking Brexit (i.e. a few dozen old, rich, privileged blokes arguing in a building) may seem a tad ridiculous and insulting? As i said earlier Mick, struggle, self determination takes many firms and permeates many situations including for example the workplace. It doesn't mean that they are the same in every way. Glad to disagree.
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Catalonia
Oct 21, 2019 16:30:27 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2019 16:30:27 GMT
For some reason the EU does not want to talk about Catalonia in their struggle for freedom, identity and self determination
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Oct 21, 2019 16:38:33 GMT
1) We do have freedom..if we didn't then we wouldn't be allowed to leave the EU. WE CAN,all you need to do is invoke a now famed article and the process begins..no-one has to die and there don't even need to be wars. You literally just ask! It isn't the EU stopping us, it's the parliament of THIS country (y'know the one's that are apparently trying to get us this "freedom" that are holding up that "freedom" themselves) - Same kind of freedom being fought for by Gandhi's and Mandela's compatriots? Well, we're all "fighting" so i guess it must be eh?
2) We DO have identity. My passport says British, i am a British citizen who adheres to British laws and uses British currency...like all British people. I don't adhere to Germany's laws or Frances etc. etc. (All member states have their own laws, it's not as if every EU member adheres to one central rule of law that binds all member states. We decide our own laws and the EU member states simply ratify those laws...same that happens with every other member state)
3) Sovereignty...we also have that in an equal way to all other member states (again ,we chose to join "Europe" and buy into that. It wasn't forced on anyone.) All you've done is thought "Well the word FIGHT is used in all of those causes, so we can clump them all together" which is really, really poor. As i said earlier, crass! There are literally millions of innocent people that died in India and South Africa over the centuries, literlly hundreds of thousands of women that have been permanently traumatised or died through abusive relationships and you don't see how likening their struggles to fucking Brexit (i.e. a few dozen old, rich, privileged blokes arguing in a building) may seem a tad ridiculous and insulting? As i said earlier Mick, struggle, self determination takes many firms and permeates many situations including for example the workplace. It doesn't mean that they are the same in every way. Glad to disagree.
But the self-determintion we are asking for is nothing like the self-determination that Gandhi and Mandela were fighting for. They were fighting to be able to just live as people and have basic human rights, so they could have land to farm and live on after having their homes and (in many cases) lives being forcibly taken from them by oppressors. We're negotiating (NOT fighting) for the chance of better trade deals so you can get your new iphone a bit cheaper or so you have the chance of a slightly better job so you can earn £15 an hour rather than £14.89.
They were also borne out of entirely and completely different situations.
If you are going to clump groups of people together to use as comparisons, then there at least need to be some similarities between them somewhere...not just the fact that they all "fight" for what they want. That really is dragging it down to its basest, most tabloid level otherwise.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2019 16:55:32 GMT
As i said earlier Mick, struggle, self determination takes many firms and permeates many situations including for example the workplace. It doesn't mean that they are the same in every way. Glad to disagree. But the self-determintion we are asking for is nothing like the self-determination that Gandhi and Mandela were fighting for. They were fighting to be able to just live as people and have basic human rights, so they could have land to farm and live on after having their homes and (in many cases) lives being forcibly taken from them by oppressors. We're negotiating (NOT fighting) for the chance of better trade deals so you can get your new iphone a bit cheaper or so you have the chance of a slightly better job so you can earn £15 an hour rather than £14.89.
They were also borne out of entirely and completely different situations. If you are going to clump groups of people together to use as comparisons, then there at least need to be some similarities between them somewhere...not just the fact that they all "fight" for what they want. That really is dragging it down to its basest, most tabloid level otherwise.
As I said Mick, we will have to disagree. I was simply saying that the fight for self determination is a common theme whether individual or as a group and gave examples. If you want to conflate all fights as the same that is up to you. I have not said that they are the same. I am aware of the history of the struggles of different peoples. Im saying that they are different but it is a basic human instinct to what to control your own destiny imho.I've said that there are different degrees and intensities, different consequences of the fight.
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Catalonia
Oct 21, 2019 17:45:17 GMT
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 21, 2019 17:45:17 GMT
What I am saying is that all people want self determination, Identity , freedom. Of course there are different degrees and different consequences. I did also mention someone in an abusive , controlling marriage. The SNP. and Sinn Fein also believe that they are fighting for similar concepts. Marx talked about the oppression of the proletariat. It does not mean that the struggles/ fights are similar in every way, just that there are similar themes.... perhaps you wanted to interpret it that way 1) We do have freedom..if we didn't then we wouldn't be allowed to leave the EU. WE CAN,all you need to do is invoke a now famed article and the process begins..no-one has to die and there don't even need to be wars. You literally just ask! It isn't the EU stopping us, it's the parliament of THIS country (y'know the one's that are apparently trying to get us this "freedom" that are holding up that "freedom" themselves) - Same kind of freedom being fought for by Gandhi's and Mandela's compatriots? Well, we're all "fighting" so i guess it must be eh?
2) We DO have identity. My passport says British, i am a British citizen who adheres to British laws and uses British currency...like all British people. I don't adhere to Germany's laws or Frances etc. etc. (All member states have their own laws, it's not as if every EU member adheres to one central rule of law that binds all member states. We decide our own laws and the EU member states simply ratify those laws...same that happens with every other member state)
3) Sovereignty...we also have that in an equal way to all other member states (again ,we chose to join "Europe" and buy into that. It wasn't forced on anyone.) All you've done is thought "Well the word FIGHT is used in all of those causes, so we can clump them all together" which is really, really poor. As i said earlier, crass! There are literally millions of innocent people that died in India and South Africa over the centuries, literlly hundreds of thousands of women that have been permanently traumatised or died through abusive relationships and you don't see how likening their struggles to fucking Brexit (i.e. a few dozen old, rich, privileged blokes arguing in a building) may seem a tad ridiculous and insulting? Number one we are allowed to leave the Eu Well I wish they would explain that to the MPs I was ready to leave two and a half years ago
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Catalonia
Oct 21, 2019 17:49:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2019 17:49:25 GMT
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Post by Northy on Oct 28, 2019 13:29:19 GMT
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