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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 7:43:41 GMT
Just heard on the news that the Labour government were warned in 1999 about the risks with that sort of cladding and did nowt too Conservative MP on some committee said on Newsnight that they've been pushing for improvements for 14 years. Altho the Landlords a bit of a cunt isn't he ? These guys always know people at the top from all parties over the years
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Post by essexstokey on Jun 15, 2017 7:52:05 GMT
Company that was paid £2.6million to install deadly cladding on Grenfell Tower collapsed last year owing £1million Cladding on deadly tower block was carried out by Harley Facades for £2.6m linkThe business went bust in 2015, shortly after the work, owing creditors more than £1million. It was bought by another of Mr Bailey’s firms, Harley Facades, based in Crowborough, East Sussex. The businessman, 58, boasts of more than 25 years “practical experience” as a specialist curtain walling contractor. At their East Sussex home yesterday Mrs Bailey, 56, denied any knowledge of Harley Curtain Wall or its work at Grenfell Tower. linkBig question on BBC on building materials used in cladding
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 15, 2017 8:13:20 GMT
Company that was paid £2.6million to install deadly cladding on Grenfell Tower collapsed last year owing £1million Cladding on deadly tower block was carried out by Harley Facades for £2.6m linkThe business went bust in 2015, shortly after the work, owing creditors more than £1million. It was bought by another of Mr Bailey’s firms, Harley Facades, based in Crowborough, East Sussex. The businessman, 58, boasts of more than 25 years “practical experience” as a specialist curtain walling contractor. At their East Sussex home yesterday Mrs Bailey, 56, denied any knowledge of Harley Curtain Wall or its work at Grenfell Tower. linkBig question on BBC on building materials used in cladding The cladding does look like the critical factor in how this fire spread so devastatingly. Of course best to let the fire investigation officers get on with their investigation pdq and confirm what happened - because there will be thousands of folk living in recently clad tower blocks across the country worried this morning. What we don't need is the grandstanding we saw yesterday - from politicians who should know better or protest groups saying "I told you so" looking to push their own agendas. Or for, that matter, from posters on this message board. Reading this thread yesterday one would have been confused as whether the fire was a consequence of Tory evil or God's will. Sometimes, well all the time, it's best to wait for facts to emerge before jumping to judgement.
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Post by harryburrows on Jun 15, 2017 8:19:47 GMT
Company that was paid £2.6million to install deadly cladding on Grenfell Tower collapsed last year owing £1million Cladding on deadly tower block was carried out by Harley Facades for £2.6m linkThe business went bust in 2015, shortly after the work, owing creditors more than £1million. It was bought by another of Mr Bailey’s firms, Harley Facades, based in Crowborough, East Sussex. The businessman, 58, boasts of more than 25 years “practical experience” as a specialist curtain walling contractor. At their East Sussex home yesterday Mrs Bailey, 56, denied any knowledge of Harley Curtain Wall or its work at Grenfell Tower. linkBig question on BBC on building materials used in cladding The cladding does look like the critical factor in how this fire spread so devastatingly. Of course best to let the fire investigation officers get on with their investigation pdq and confirm what happened - because there will be thousands of folk living in recently clad tower blocks across the country worried this morning. What we don't need is the grandstanding we saw yesterday - from politicians who should know better or protest groups saying "I told you so" looking to push their own agendas. Or for, that matter, from posters on this message board. Reading this thread yesterday one would have been confused as whether the fire was a consequence of Tory evil or God's will. Sometimes, well all the time, it's best to wait for facts to emerge before jumping to judgement. You know GOD is a socialist don't you ?
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Post by followyoudown on Jun 15, 2017 8:39:07 GMT
metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/resident-of-grenfell-tower-flat-where-fire-started-packed-own-stuff-before-warning-neighbours-6709573/‘It was when he [the neighbour] knocked on the door that he said there was a fire in his flat. It was exactly 12.50am because I was sleeping and it woke me up. ‘When we got up, I saw outside his flat his luggage. There was a big bag with his clothes. That means he took the stuff from his flat, and then he told the neighbours. ‘The fire was small in the kitchen. I could see it because the flat door was open. And then we passed and then we were out.’ I've read this in a couple of places now and mention that it started from a fire in his fridge yet first call to fire brigade was a few minutes after the fire started and after he'd picked up his clothes if it's true the bloke is either a colossal knob for not calling them straight away or it wasn't the fridge that started the fire.........
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Post by manmarking on Jun 15, 2017 8:47:39 GMT
Company that was paid £2.6million to install deadly cladding on Grenfell Tower collapsed last year owing £1million Cladding on deadly tower block was carried out by Harley Facades for £2.6m linkThe business went bust in 2015, shortly after the work, owing creditors more than £1million. It was bought by another of Mr Bailey’s firms, Harley Facades, based in Crowborough, East Sussex. The businessman, 58, boasts of more than 25 years “practical experience” as a specialist curtain walling contractor. At their East Sussex home yesterday Mrs Bailey, 56, denied any knowledge of Harley Curtain Wall or its work at Grenfell Tower. linkBig question on BBC on building materials used in cladding The cladding does look like the critical factor in how this fire spread so devastatingly. Of course best to let the fire investigation officers get on with their investigation pdq and confirm what happened - because there will be thousands of folk living in recently clad tower blocks across the country worried this morning. What we don't need is the grandstanding we saw yesterday - from politicians who should know better or protest groups saying "I told you so" looking to push their own agendas. Or for, that matter, from posters on this message board. Reading this thread yesterday one would have been confused as whether the fire was a consequence of Tory evil or God's will. Sometimes, well all the time, it's best to wait for facts to emerge before jumping to judgement. Do you not think that residents groups of the tower have the right to vent their displeasure when 120 homes are burnt to a crisp with a large loss of life? After they've been warning of the risks of exactly such an event for years? How long does decency require them to wait before feeling angry and talking about it? The Tories on here are every bit as guilty of politicising this event by calling for a blanket ban on discussing very serious housing issues which will likely embarrass the Tory party. But which nevertheless affect thousands of other poor families across the country.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 15, 2017 9:33:16 GMT
The cladding does look like the critical factor in how this fire spread so devastatingly. Of course best to let the fire investigation officers get on with their investigation pdq and confirm what happened - because there will be thousands of folk living in recently clad tower blocks across the country worried this morning. What we don't need is the grandstanding we saw yesterday - from politicians who should know better or protest groups saying "I told you so" looking to push their own agendas. Or for, that matter, from posters on this message board. Reading this thread yesterday one would have been confused as whether the fire was a consequence of Tory evil or God's will. Sometimes, well all the time, it's best to wait for facts to emerge before jumping to judgement. Do you not think that residents groups of the tower have the right to vent their displeasure when 120 homes are burnt to a crisp with a large loss of life? After they've been warning of the risks of exactly such an event for years? How long does decency require them to wait before feeling angry and talking about it? The Tories on here are every bit as guilty of politicising this event by calling for a blanket ban on discussing very serious housing issues which will likely embarrass the Tory party. But which nevertheless affect thousands of other poor families across the country. I read some of their blogs yesterday and none of what I read relates to the specific circumstances of how the fire escalated so quickly out of control yesterday. Those blogs addressed issues with things like signage, functional fire extinguishers, access, fire hazards etc. So it is dangerously misleading for them to say "We told you so" when what they said has not been shown (yet) to be material in yesterday's tragedy. What happened yesterday, from what I've read, is therefore not "exactly such an event" as they warned against.. As mentioned, if this turns out to be a disaster caused by landlord negligence then suitable actions can be taken against them (and others as appropriate), but if it's a wider issue related to inadequate building regulations (which seems more likely) then a different set of actions are likely. That is why it's best to wait and see what investigators discover happened. On the other hand - let's blame the evil Tories. That feels so much better doesn't it.
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Post by manmarking on Jun 15, 2017 10:09:22 GMT
Do you not think that residents groups of the tower have the right to vent their displeasure when 120 homes are burnt to a crisp with a large loss of life? After they've been warning of the risks of exactly such an event for years? How long does decency require them to wait before feeling angry and talking about it? The Tories on here are every bit as guilty of politicising this event by calling for a blanket ban on discussing very serious housing issues which will likely embarrass the Tory party. But which nevertheless affect thousands of other poor families across the country. I read some of their blogs yesterday and none of what I read relates to the specific circumstances of how the fire escalated so quickly out of control yesterday. Those blogs addressed issues with things like signage, functional fire extinguishers, access, fire hazards etc. So it is dangerously misleading for them to say "We told you so" when what they said has not been shown (yet) to be material in yesterday's tragedy. What happened yesterday, from what I've read, is therefore not "exactly such an event" as they warned against.. As mentioned, if this turns out to be a disaster caused by landlord negligence then suitable actions can be taken against them (and others as appropriate), but if it's a wider issue related to inadequate building regulations (which seems more likely) then a different set of actions are likely. That is why it's best to wait and see what investigators discover happened. On the other hand - let's blame the evil Tories. That feels so much better doesn't it. I haven't seen anyone saying "I told you so". I've seen people understandably exasperated that warnings about their homes - not yours, not mine - weren't heeded. . And nobody is suggesting that condemned fire extinguishers or anything like that is to blame for this scenario. Simply that a cavalier attitude to the health and safety of some 600 deprived folks existed amongst the very people who are paid to look after their housing. I'm not blaming the Tories for the fact someone's fridge exploded or whatever it was that caused this. But their actions (or lack of) on housing since being in power will come back to haunt them. And whether you find it tasteful or not, I'm afraid people will remain angry that their homes have just been burned down, and their neighbours have died. Seemingly totally avoidably.
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Post by essexstokey on Jun 15, 2017 10:18:30 GMT
The Landlords are Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea like all local authorities they put contracts out for tender and usually go with the cheapest
(I'm trying not to make a political point here just dealing with information)
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Post by essexstokey on Jun 15, 2017 10:20:59 GMT
Around here external cladding is going on on normal houses, what I want to know is what checks are in place from councils to check proper materials are being used or what checks are going to take place in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 10:23:33 GMT
metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/resident-of-grenfell-tower-flat-where-fire-started-packed-own-stuff-before-warning-neighbours-6709573/‘It was when he [the neighbour] knocked on the door that he said there was a fire in his flat. It was exactly 12.50am because I was sleeping and it woke me up. ‘When we got up, I saw outside his flat his luggage. There was a big bag with his clothes. That means he took the stuff from his flat, and then he told the neighbours. ‘The fire was small in the kitchen. I could see it because the flat door was open. And then we passed and then we were out.’ I've read this in a couple of places now and mention that it started from a fire in his fridge yet first call to fire brigade was a few minutes after the fire started and after he'd picked up his clothes if it's true the bloke is either a colossal knob for not calling them straight away or it wasn't the fridge that started the fire......... Summat does not quite add up here....I think there is a lot more to this fridge story than meets the eye, and forensic investigators from LFB will certainly find the truth...
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Post by essexstokey on Jun 15, 2017 10:26:11 GMT
Do you not think that residents groups of the tower have the right to vent their displeasure when 120 homes are burnt to a crisp with a large loss of life? After they've been warning of the risks of exactly such an event for years? How long does decency require them to wait before feeling angry and talking about it? The Tories on here are every bit as guilty of politicising this event by calling for a blanket ban on discussing very serious housing issues which will likely embarrass the Tory party. But which nevertheless affect thousands of other poor families across the country. I read some of their blogs yesterday and none of what I read relates to the specific circumstances of how the fire escalated so quickly out of control yesterday. Those blogs addressed issues with things like signage, functional fire extinguishers, access, fire hazards etc. So it is dangerously misleading for them to say "We told you so" when what they said has not been shown (yet) to be material in yesterday's tragedy. What happened yesterday, from what I've read, is therefore not "exactly such an event" as they warned against..
As mentioned, if this turns out to be a disaster caused by landlord negligence then suitable actions can be taken against them (and others as appropriate), but if it's a wider issue related to inadequate building regulations (which seems more likely) then a different set of actions are likely. That is why it's best to wait and see what investigators discover happened. On the other hand - let's blame the evil Tories. That feels so much better doesn't it. The problem is that even if they were not warned by the residents of this problem, they were warned by an incident that cost 6 lives a few years ago and also the Dubai hotel fire that both had external cladding and both had the same result of fire spreading.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 15, 2017 10:28:51 GMT
I read some of their blogs yesterday and none of what I read relates to the specific circumstances of how the fire escalated so quickly out of control yesterday. Those blogs addressed issues with things like signage, functional fire extinguishers, access, fire hazards etc. So it is dangerously misleading for them to say "We told you so" when what they said has not been shown (yet) to be material in yesterday's tragedy. What happened yesterday, from what I've read, is therefore not "exactly such an event" as they warned against.. As mentioned, if this turns out to be a disaster caused by landlord negligence then suitable actions can be taken against them (and others as appropriate), but if it's a wider issue related to inadequate building regulations (which seems more likely) then a different set of actions are likely. That is why it's best to wait and see what investigators discover happened. On the other hand - let's blame the evil Tories. That feels so much better doesn't it. I haven't seen anyone saying "I told you so". I've seen people understandably exasperated that warnings about their homes - not yours, not mine - weren't heeded. . And nobody is suggesting that condemned fire extinguishers or anything like that is to blame for this scenario. Simply that a cavalier attitude to the health and safety of some 600 deprived folks existed amongst the very people who are paid to look after their housing. I'm not blaming the Tories for the fact someone's fridge exploded or whatever it was that caused this. But their actions (or lack of) on housing since being in power will come back to haunt them. And whether you find it tasteful or not, I'm afraid people will remain angry that their homes have just been burned down, and their neighbours have died. Seemingly totally avoidably. Yeah - folk are angry. This is a tragedy and as you say I'm sure we will discover this disaster was avoidable. But how it was avoidable is to be determined. So let's stop guessing, apportioning blame and generally leaping to unfounded conclusions. Time enough for that when we know what caused this conflagration.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 15, 2017 10:36:09 GMT
I read some of their blogs yesterday and none of what I read relates to the specific circumstances of how the fire escalated so quickly out of control yesterday. Those blogs addressed issues with things like signage, functional fire extinguishers, access, fire hazards etc. So it is dangerously misleading for them to say "We told you so" when what they said has not been shown (yet) to be material in yesterday's tragedy. What happened yesterday, from what I've read, is therefore not "exactly such an event" as they warned against..
As mentioned, if this turns out to be a disaster caused by landlord negligence then suitable actions can be taken against them (and others as appropriate), but if it's a wider issue related to inadequate building regulations (which seems more likely) then a different set of actions are likely. That is why it's best to wait and see what investigators discover happened. On the other hand - let's blame the evil Tories. That feels so much better doesn't it. The problem is that even if they were not warned by the residents of this problem, they were warned by an incident that cost 6 lives a few years ago and also the Dubai hotel fire that both had external cladding and both had the same result of fire spreading. Maybe. I'm sure the enquirer will determine links between previous fires. What's concerning is if the cladding is to blame, how does what was done there relate to other tower blocks across the country. There's been lots of recladding of tower blocks in Glasgow in recent years. Could what happened yesterday happen in one of these buildings. It's vital this is the priority question being addressed.
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Post by essexstokey on Jun 15, 2017 10:41:45 GMT
The problem is that even if they were not warned by the residents of this problem, they were warned by an incident that cost 6 lives a few years ago and also the Dubai hotel fire that both had external cladding and both had the same result of fire spreading. Maybe. I'm sure the enquirer will determine links between previous fires. What's concerning is if the cladding is to blame, how does what was done there relate to other tower blocks across the country. There's been lots of recladding of tower blocks in Glasgow in recent years. Could what happened yesterday happen in one of these buildings. It's vital this is the priority question being addressed. Yes and that's the problem that's why up and down the country checks are being made today but I cant understand here why this morning I saw them still cladding houses until this issue has been checked!!
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Post by Northy on Jun 15, 2017 10:51:35 GMT
Yes I understand that, I get involved in EU EPBD (Energy Performance of Building Directives) inspections on buildings and also the insurance inspections with Tokio Marine, I was answering spiththedogs comment about it being put on so it looks nice for the Toffs. Which seems to be supported by this press release from Rydon last year. www.rydon.co.uk/news/rydon-lands-grenfell-tower-refurbishment-The main focus of both Rydon and Cllr Paget Brown - in July 2016 at least - appeared to be the aesthetic of the building. It mentions giving it the 'fresher modern look' but if you had carry on reading yo may have seen this section: - Internally, a new, more efficient communal heating system and bespoke smoke extract and ventilation system were fitted. The works achieved a BREEAM Good rating and Rydon helped the client secure eco funding grants. I assume this is where any investigation will be looking into.
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Post by Northy on Jun 15, 2017 10:53:14 GMT
Company that was paid £2.6million to install deadly cladding on Grenfell Tower collapsed last year owing £1million Cladding on deadly tower block was carried out by Harley Facades for £2.6m linkThe business went bust in 2015, shortly after the work, owing creditors more than £1million. It was bought by another of Mr Bailey’s firms, Harley Facades, based in Crowborough, East Sussex. The businessman, 58, boasts of more than 25 years “practical experience” as a specialist curtain walling contractor. At their East Sussex home yesterday Mrs Bailey, 56, denied any knowledge of Harley Curtain Wall or its work at Grenfell Tower. linkBig question on BBC on building materials used in cladding The cladding does look like the critical factor in how this fire spread so devastatingly. Of course best to let the fire investigation officers get on with their investigation pdq and confirm what happened - because there will be thousands of folk living in recently clad tower blocks across the country worried this morning. What we don't need is the grandstanding we saw yesterday - from politicians who should know better or protest groups saying "I told you so" looking to push their own agendas. Or for, that matter, from posters on this message board. Reading this thread yesterday one would have been confused as whether the fire was a consequence of Tory evil or God's will. Sometimes, well all the time, it's best to wait for facts to emerge before jumping to judgement. Well said PP, incident management doesn't look at agendas, just the facts.
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Post by Northy on Jun 15, 2017 10:59:51 GMT
youve obviously got an agenda so it's not worth discussing, looking at your post above about Toffs. Maybe the people inside the flats wanted it to look nice as well, rather than the cheaply thrown up 50's concrete towers, I saw quite a few done up in Portsmouth, no Toffs as you call them, around that area. I am repeating what is being said on the streets around that area, and what has been said for some time....and yes there is an agenda....to be living in secure housing under the pressure of "the London clearances" a policy that is geared towards satisfying rich investors. Only last November, the Grenfell Action Group warned of “dangerous living conditions” and said: “It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO.” they were probably written off as having an agenda too You can guarantee that these will be luxury flats in a few years, another phase of a social cleansing policy that has been going on for years now, and that is geared towards satisfying the desires of an elite group of people, call them what you want. So yes, there is an agenda and there needs to be an agenda. Without agendas things don't change and show me someone on this message board who doesn't have one! If you and ************** (manmarking) read the attached link, you will see the management company is actually elected tenants, and councillors who took over the refurbishments themselves www.kctmo.org.uk/main/8/about-usIncidents like this always create passions, but managing the post incidents has to have a clear mind with no agendas otherwise the wrong conclusion may be found.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 15, 2017 11:37:09 GMT
Maybe. I'm sure the enquirer will determine links between previous fires. What's concerning is if the cladding is to blame, how does what was done there relate to other tower blocks across the country. There's been lots of recladding of tower blocks in Glasgow in recent years. Could what happened yesterday happen in one of these buildings. It's vital this is the priority question being addressed. Yes and that's the problem that's why up and down the country checks are being made today but I cant understand here why this morning I saw them still cladding houses until this issue has been checked!! Too early to stop work - they have to find the cause of escalation of the fire. It's possible, assuming the cladding is the cause of the disaster, that there were specific issues in the material used at Grenfell Tower or possibly the installation. I think it's fair to say though from watching the video that sprinklers inside the building would not have prevented the disaster seeing how the building seemed to be engulfed from the outside. So why people are raising that as a response to the disaster is beyond me. Well, no it's not. It's the typical wanker politician response - propose action regardless of whether that action is in anyway meaningful to the issue at hand.
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Post by Northy on Jun 15, 2017 11:50:51 GMT
Yes and that's the problem that's why up and down the country checks are being made today but I cant understand here why this morning I saw them still cladding houses until this issue has been checked!! Too early to stop work - they have to find the cause of escalation of the fire. It's possible, assuming the cladding is the cause of the disaster, that there were specific issues in the material used at Grenfell Tower or possibly the installation. I think it's fair to say though from watching the video that sprinklers inside the building would not have prevented the disaster seeing how the building seemed to be engulfed from the outside. So why people are raising that as a response to the disaster is beyond me. Well, no it's not. It's the typical wanker politician response - propose action regardless of whether that action is in anyway meaningful to the issue at hand. sprinklers in the escape routes may have helped, or even a dry riser that the fire brigade could connect a hose to and pump water up into it.
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Post by manmarking on Jun 15, 2017 13:05:20 GMT
It mentions giving it the 'fresher modern look' but if you had carry on reading yo may have seen this section: - Internally, a new, more efficient communal heating system and bespoke smoke extract and ventilation system were fitted. The works achieved a BREEAM Good rating and Rydon helped the client secure eco funding grants. I assume this is where any investigation will be looking into. A one-minute basic linguistic analysis demonstrates that at the time of launch, there are six mentions of aesthetics in that press release: 1) remodelling 2) Improved spaces 3) façades 4) Fresher, modern look 5) Remodeling 6) lifted the external appearanceAnd three mentions of practical improvements to people's homes: 1) improvements inside people’s homes 2) more efficient communal heating system 3) bespoke smoke extract and ventilation systemNot conclusive by any means, but this is one indication of where the priorities for the refurbishment lay. Now the block has burnt to a crisp with a catastrophic loss of life, I note they're bigging up the practical improvements a lot more. PS. I'm not **************, Sugartits
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Post by manmarking on Jun 15, 2017 13:36:21 GMT
Yes and that's the problem that's why up and down the country checks are being made today but I cant understand here why this morning I saw them still cladding houses until this issue has been checked!! Too early to stop work - they have to find the cause of escalation of the fire. It's possible, assuming the cladding is the cause of the disaster, that there were specific issues in the material used at Grenfell Tower or possibly the installation. I think it's fair to say though from watching the video that sprinklers inside the building would not have prevented the disaster seeing how the building seemed to be engulfed from the outside. So why people are raising that as a response to the disaster is beyond me. Well, no it's not. It's the typical wanker politician response - propose action regardless of whether that action is in anyway meaningful to the issue at hand. For the third time. No one is saying that fire extinguishers, sprinkler systems or whatever could have prevented the fire. Simply that the track record of health and safety appears very poor and points to a "profits over people" mindset. It also seems hypocritical to demand on the one hand that people wait for an official verdict before casting judgement, whilst on the other deciding before any official verdict that sprinklers aren't a legitimate response to the disaster. People are raising the issue because sprinklers might at least have bought time for more people to escape. Doesn't seem that wild a suggestion to me but anyway
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Post by salopstick on Jun 15, 2017 13:38:23 GMT
There will be a public enquiry that will determine the cause etc
Let it do its job and any culpable blame will then be attributed and sorted out.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 15, 2017 15:01:52 GMT
Too early to stop work - they have to find the cause of escalation of the fire. It's possible, assuming the cladding is the cause of the disaster, that there were specific issues in the material used at Grenfell Tower or possibly the installation. I think it's fair to say though from watching the video that sprinklers inside the building would not have prevented the disaster seeing how the building seemed to be engulfed from the outside. So why people are raising that as a response to the disaster is beyond me. Well, no it's not. It's the typical wanker politician response - propose action regardless of whether that action is in anyway meaningful to the issue at hand. For the third time. No one is saying that fire extinguishers, sprinkler systems or whatever could have prevented the fire. Simply that the track record of health and safety appears very poor and points to a "profits over people" mindset. It also seems hypocritical to demand on the one hand that people wait for an official verdict before casting judgement, whilst on the other deciding before any official verdict that sprinklers aren't a legitimate response to the disaster. People are raising the issue because sprinklers might at least have bought time for more people to escape. Doesn't seem that wild a suggestion to me but anyway Here's the thing. Put a load of sprinklers in. Another fire. More catastrophic deaths. Folk then ask why didn't the sprinklers save any lives. Answer because they were installed because an arsehole decided we needed action and this was deemed, without evidence, to be the action we should undertake. Maybe sprinklers is the way forward. Maybe something else. Let's act on evidence and expert direction. Not guesswork. Nothing hypocritical there.
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Post by manmarking on Jun 15, 2017 15:13:18 GMT
For the third time. No one is saying that fire extinguishers, sprinkler systems or whatever could have prevented the fire. Simply that the track record of health and safety appears very poor and points to a "profits over people" mindset. It also seems hypocritical to demand on the one hand that people wait for an official verdict before casting judgement, whilst on the other deciding before any official verdict that sprinklers aren't a legitimate response to the disaster. People are raising the issue because sprinklers might at least have bought time for more people to escape. Doesn't seem that wild a suggestion to me but anyway Here's the thing. Put a load of sprinklers in. Another fire. More catastrophic deaths. Folk then ask why didn't the sprinklers save any lives. Answer because they were installed because an arsehole decided we needed action and this was deemed, without evidence, to be the action we should undertake. Maybe sprinklers is the way forward. Maybe something else. Let's act on evidence and expert direction. Not guesswork. Nothing hypocritical there. Well, no there's nothing hypocritical there. But that's because you've become somewhat more nuanced since writing: "... it's fair to say ... from watching the video that sprinklers inside the building would not have prevented the disaster ... why people are raising that as a response to the disaster is beyond me. Well, no it's not. It's the typical wanker politician response ..."and U-turned to: "Maybe sprinklers is the way forward. Maybe something else. Let's act on evidence and expert direction. Not guesswork."
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 15, 2017 16:23:46 GMT
Here's the thing. Put a load of sprinklers in. Another fire. More catastrophic deaths. Folk then ask why didn't the sprinklers save any lives. Answer because they were installed because an arsehole decided we needed action and this was deemed, without evidence, to be the action we should undertake. Maybe sprinklers is the way forward. Maybe something else. Let's act on evidence and expert direction. Not guesswork. Nothing hypocritical there. Well, no there's nothing hypocritical there. But that's because you've become somewhat more nuanced since writing: "... it's fair to say ... from watching the video that sprinklers inside the building would not have prevented the disaster ... why people are raising that as a response to the disaster is beyond me. Well, no it's not. It's the typical wanker politician response ..."and U-turned to: "Maybe sprinklers is the way forward. Maybe something else. Let's act on evidence and expert direction. Not guesswork."You are one tedious pedant aren't you. The point is emphatically the same. You sound like one of those wanker politicians grasping at straws and deflecting wherever possible. Of course, in reality you are just a wanker. I'm done with your shite.
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Post by lordherefordsknob on Jun 15, 2017 16:40:09 GMT
Lots of angry people just on sky news, can see it kicking off there big time.
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Post by manmarking on Jun 15, 2017 17:39:24 GMT
Well, no there's nothing hypocritical there. But that's because you've become somewhat more nuanced since writing: "... it's fair to say ... from watching the video that sprinklers inside the building would not have prevented the disaster ... why people are raising that as a response to the disaster is beyond me. Well, no it's not. It's the typical wanker politician response ..."and U-turned to: "Maybe sprinklers is the way forward. Maybe something else. Let's act on evidence and expert direction. Not guesswork."You are one tedious pedant aren't you. The point is emphatically the same. You sound like one of those wanker politicians grasping at straws and deflecting wherever possible. Of course, in reality you are just a wanker. I'm done with your shite. The point isn't the fucking same at all and you well know it. You just don't have the gumption to admit when you're wrong. Just like so many other rent-a-gobs on here. And in spite of your endless piety about keeping things civil and sensible on this board, you descend into name-calling at the first sign of difficulty with no provocation. Duly noted. And pathetic.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 15, 2017 18:33:58 GMT
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Post by samba :) on Jun 15, 2017 19:00:14 GMT
Why did they tell people to stay inside? Thats going to cost alot of lives The whole thing is so sad
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