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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 10:37:34 GMT
Caroline Lucas said the same (near enough). Personally, I think that’s fair enough. Why should they agree with something they strongly oppose. They don’t have to agree with it, but we live in a democracy, we had a referendum and 17.4m people, more than have voted for anything in the history of this country, voted to leave, its pure arrogance for her to say she’s going to do everything she can to stop it. Have to disagree, you don't expect the tories to stop campaigning for their policies if the public vote labour in do you? Whether you agree or not, she is well within her right to campaign for her beliefs. She's trying to stop no deal and get a 2nd ref. No-one voted for no deal (please don't respond to that because they just didn't), and she wants to remain so obviously wants to see if the views of the people have changed. I imagine they haven't, but even so, she is campaigning for her political beliefs, same as anyone else.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 10:38:40 GMT
The axis of the world has shifted - in the UK at least. From left vs right, socialism vs capitalism, private vs public to Brexit v Remain. And it is a bi-polar world. Something Boris has recognised. Something the Lib Dems recognised from the very start Something Corbyn has not recognised (and nor did TM). This is why Corbyn has real problems and why the Lib Dems immediately punted his proposal last night into touch. They've established some ground and do not intend to concede any of it to Corbyn. People want clarity, the libdems have been shrewd to come out squarely against stopping brexit, they’ve managed to suck up some labour remain Support. Corbyns fence sitting is backfiring on him and he’s starting to realise it, labour voters could easily drift to any of the other parties, that’s a problem unique to labour because I don’t think conservative voters would go anywhere else other than the brexit party and they’d only do that if Boris softens brexit. If Corbyn wouldn’t back Mays half baked brexit which form of brexit would he actually support ? Anything weaker than Mays agreement wouldn’t constitute a proper brexit, Labour have never really been clear on what brexit they would support, they’ve just steadfastly opposed everything. He said customs union.
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Post by sorethumbs on Aug 15, 2019 10:41:28 GMT
If we weren't already IN....I wonder how the public would respond to the question... " Do you want to belong to the EU , an organisation whose purpose is economic and political union. It will involve giving up more and more of your Sovereignty and independence. We will control your laws, borders and policies. We will speak for you on the world stage..... that way your voice will be heard 🤔. You'll be fine with our ideas such as a European army ( just trust us and hope for the best) , but if not....well, I don't really know what you can do about it. There will be no opposition to this, ever closer union is the goal, you won't elect us , the system will be remote but hidden in a labyrinth of bureucracy and control but in a pseudo democracy. Oh and it will cost you.....but don't worry we will give you some of your money back....to spend on projects that we approve of.....even though we don't really know a lot about living in the UK ( we don't believe in local representative MPs, just administrators)". Mind you, we've had the referendum I posed the same question a few pages back bigjohn, not as succinctly as you put it here but trying to get an answer from those 'pro EU' posters on here. The closest I got to an answer was along the lines of 'well if you put it like that there's no use answering because we know what the answer would be' This to me is more a misunderstanding/ignorance of the EU project that any accusations from remainers that leavers didn't know what we were voting for. They accept the EU and it's faults as it is NOW, so what would make them think the EU has gone a step too far? Do they think the faults will be ironed out over time or get worse? Will it make a difference to the direction of the EU if we stay or leave?
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Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 15, 2019 10:45:43 GMT
They don’t have to agree with it, but we live in a democracy, we had a referendum and 17.4m people, more than have voted for anything in the history of this country, voted to leave, its pure arrogance for her to say she’s going to do everything she can to stop it. I think it’s more a case of her being disingenuous than arrogant. She, and others of her ilk, are using “No Deal Brexit” to disguise her true intention which is to stop Brexit altogether. And that excuse has been handed to her on a plate due to the emphasis on No Deal. That's why I am dubious about it.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2019 10:48:17 GMT
Geography (and History ) play a large part in the EU question. The significance of the Uk being an island off the extreme West coast of the mainland continent of Europe and the centre of power being Brussels/ Strasbourg.. right at the heart of the Northern European power base are important factors. Wasn't it Churchill who said that the UK would always choose the sea. When i first went to the EU parliament I couldn't get anywhere near the main ( impressive) entrance. Roads were closed and it was guarded by what I would call paramilitary police ( similar to those in black in France in respect of the Gilets Jaunes). Suddenly a parade of people and agricultural machinery/ tractors came down the road. .....French farmers protesting. Very impressive.... they even set fire to bales of hay.....looked dangerous to me but the police simply held back the public.
My point is.....we will never have the same affinity or connection to Brussels as those in Northern Europe can have. Their voice is much more likely to be heard. Centre of power Much more accessible..... that's important particularly when the concept of local representative MEPs doesn't really work.
A comparison can be made to the UK's relationship with London. At least London is relatively accessible and on the same Island ( except for NI). I can understand some Scots thinking that they are not represented by London. Northern England often feels as though there is a North - South divide.
Similarly our experience and relationship and history in respect of Eastern Europe is different.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 15, 2019 10:56:46 GMT
They don’t have to agree with it, but we live in a democracy, we had a referendum and 17.4m people, more than have voted for anything in the history of this country, voted to leave, its pure arrogance for her to say she’s going to do everything she can to stop it. Have to disagree, you don't expect the tories to stop campaigning for their policies if the public vote labour in do you? Whether you agree or not, she is well within her right to campaign for her beliefs. She's trying to stop no deal and get a 2nd ref. No-one voted for no deal (please don't respond to that because they just didn't), and she wants to remain so obviously wants to see if the views of the people have changed. I imagine they haven't, but even so, she is campaigning for her political beliefs, same as anyone else. Parliament voted for No Deal(or at least the inevitability of it, if nothing could be agreed upon). She's voting against something she's made happen.
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 10:57:58 GMT
They don’t have to agree with it, but we live in a democracy, we had a referendum and 17.4m people, more than have voted for anything in the history of this country, voted to leave, its pure arrogance for her to say she’s going to do everything she can to stop it. Have to disagree, you don't expect the tories to stop campaigning for their policies if the public vote labour in do you? Whether you agree or not, she is well within her right to campaign for her beliefs. She's trying to stop no deal and get a 2nd ref. No-one voted for no deal (please don't respond to that because they just didn't), and she wants to remain so obviously wants to see if the views of the people have changed. I imagine they haven't, but even so, she is campaigning for her political beliefs, same as anyone else. Absolutely... but only after we leave, not before! Essentially everyone voted for no deal because it was “in or out” there was nothing on the ballot about a deal.
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Post by yeokel on Aug 15, 2019 11:00:26 GMT
I feel that a snag with a second referendum for us Leavers is that the yoof of the UK might manage to drag their arses out of bed and, if they can find out where there is a polling station, might manage to crawl down there to mark their X onto the ballot paper.
This could be costly because, in all likelihood, many of them won’t have a clue about the issues, they won’t be any better informed than they were previously but they will have been told where to scrawl their mark by most of the MSM, their chums on Facebook, Snapchat, etc and by the celebs on Love Island and other such tripe who are just as badly informed as they are.
The people who voted in the referendum cared enough to go out and cast a vote. As others have said, all the evidence is that very few have changed their mind.
Many of the (new) people who vote in the next one (if there is one) won’t really care and won’t really be particularly well informed other than they have been brainwashed into believing that we are on a ‘cliff edge’, in danger of 'plunging disastrously out of the EU' with a No Deal Brexit, and only they can save us and safeguard their own future in to the bargain.
That is the nature of true democracy, I understand that, but it will be sickening for many of us to know that a second referendum could be lost/won through blind ignorance.
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 11:07:50 GMT
I feel that a snag with a second referendum for us Leavers is that the yoof of the UK might manage to drag their arses out of bed and, if they can find out where there is a polling station, might manage to crawl down there to mark their X onto the ballot paper. This could be costly because, in all likelihood, many of them won’t have a clue about the issues, they won’t be any better informed than they were previously but they will have been told where to scrawl their mark by most of the MSM, their chums on Facebook, Snapchat, etc and by the celebs on Love Island and other such tripe who are just as badly informed as they are. The people who voted in the referendum cared enough to go out and cast a vote. As others have said, all the evidence is that very few have changed their mind. Many of the (new) people who vote in the next one (if there is one) won’t really care and won’t really be particularly well informed other than they have been brainwashed into believing that we are on a ‘cliff edge’, in danger of 'plunging disastrously out of the EU' with a No Deal Brexit, and only they can save us and safeguard their own future in to the bargain. That is the nature of true democracy, I understand that, but it will be sickening for many of us to know that a second referendum could be lost/won through blind ignorance. That’s true, a youth surge could change the numbers and no doubt there would be a big campaign to galvanise them in the lead up to it. Most people’s views are entrenched on this issue, I find it’s reasonbly rare to find someone who’s changed their mind either way on this, so unless remain can galvanise the youth vote it would likely be a similar result.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 11:17:38 GMT
They don’t have to agree with it, but we live in a democracy, we had a referendum and 17.4m people, more than have voted for anything in the history of this country, voted to leave, its pure arrogance for her to say she’s going to do everything she can to stop it. Have to disagree, you don't expect the tories to stop campaigning for their policies if the public vote labour in do you? Whether you agree or not, she is well within her right to campaign for her beliefs. She's trying to stop no deal and get a 2nd ref. No-one voted for no deal (please don't respond to that because they just didn't), and she wants to remain so obviously wants to see if the views of the people have changed. I imagine they haven't, but even so, she is campaigning for her political beliefs, same as anyone else. I voted to leave and that included a no deal if it came to it.....no hesitation I'm 100% certain everyone else who voted leave did too as the government that allowed us the vote made it perfectly clear what was at risk and it was posted through every letterbox
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 11:21:30 GMT
They don’t have to agree with it, but we live in a democracy, we had a referendum and 17.4m people, more than have voted for anything in the history of this country, voted to leave, its pure arrogance for her to say she’s going to do everything she can to stop it. Have to disagree, you don't expect the tories to stop campaigning for their policies if the public vote labour in do you?But that isn’t a fair analogy. The Tories would be right to keep campaigning for their policies after a general election loss, but that isn’t what she’s doing, the equivalent of what she’s doing would be the Tories calling for the election to be voided and rerun because they didn’t like the result and thought the labour government would be damaging to the country.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2019 11:22:37 GMT
I feel that a snag with a second referendum for us Leavers is that the yoof of the UK might manage to drag their arses out of bed and, if they can find out where there is a polling station, might manage to crawl down there to mark their X onto the ballot paper. This could be costly because, in all likelihood, many of them won’t have a clue about the issues, they won’t be any better informed than they were previously but they will have been told where to scrawl their mark by most of the MSM, their chums on Facebook, Snapchat, etc and by the celebs on Love Island and other such tripe who are just as badly informed as they are. The people who voted in the referendum cared enough to go out and cast a vote. As others have said, all the evidence is that very few have changed their mind. Many of the (new) people who vote in the next one (if there is one) won’t really care and won’t really be particularly well informed other than they have been brainwashed into believing that we are on a ‘cliff edge’, in danger of 'plunging disastrously out of the EU' with a No Deal Brexit, and only they can save us and safeguard their own future in to the bargain. That is the nature of true democracy, I understand that, but it will be sickening for many of us to know that a second referendum could be lost/won through blind ignorance. And also the decision of the last one has not been implemented. The whole purpose of that was to decide the EU issue for a generation.. .. unfortunately Remainers won't accept the result... because they did not win , as expected. Its a complete joke to say that another Referendum would bring unity. It would resurrect and intensify the arguments...adding to them the issue of democracy. Its simply a further way in which Remainers want to thwart the decision. If they had won the referendum there would not have been a third one.
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Post by foster on Aug 15, 2019 11:27:23 GMT
I'd say that people are a lot more informed today than they were 3 years ago, now that all the bullshit has been exposed and there's been plenty more debate on the subject.
People have had 3 years to galvanise or change their minds and i'd expect a significantly higher turnout this time around as well.
So whatever happens, the result will be an accurate reflection of what most people want now. Whether it's leave or remain there would be no grounds for disputing the result.
As for the 'yoofs', they have as much right to vote as anyone, for either option.
But of course this is IF there is another referendum.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Aug 15, 2019 11:38:33 GMT
Bunch of self serving hypocritical cunts, the lot of them. There needs to be a revolution, get rid of them all!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2019 11:39:17 GMT
I'd say that people are a lot more informed today than they were 3 years ago, now that all the bullshit has been exposed and there's been plenty more debate on the subject. People have had 3 years to galvanise or change their minds and i'd expect a significantly higher turnout this time around as well. So whatever happens, the result will be an accurate reflection of what most people want now. Whether it's leave or remain there would be no grounds for disputing the result. As for the 'yoofs', they have as much right to vote as anyone, for either option. But of course this is IF there is another referendum. The time to expose and publicise information is before a vote. Perhaps Remain didn't get their "facts" over well enough. ( Two weeks after a general election perhaps we should have another one because things change and more ' facts' come out).Perhaps they relied too much upon fear. Its only Remainers who are moaning about not being informed, perhaps they did not know what they voted for Or perhaps Remainers want to reverse the result. There's absolutely no pressure group from Leavers complaining about not being informed. Most people did not even need a campaign to understand the question.... independence or belonging to the EU and forfeiting sovereignty.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 11:44:10 GMT
Have to disagree, you don't expect the tories to stop campaigning for their policies if the public vote labour in do you? Whether you agree or not, she is well within her right to campaign for her beliefs. She's trying to stop no deal and get a 2nd ref. No-one voted for no deal (please don't respond to that because they just didn't), and she wants to remain so obviously wants to see if the views of the people have changed. I imagine they haven't, but even so, she is campaigning for her political beliefs, same as anyone else. I voted to leave and that included a no deal if it came to it.....no hesitation If that's the case then you believe others did the same, there's no problem with a 2nd ref, because in a no deal vs remain, no deal would win.
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Post by foster on Aug 15, 2019 11:52:46 GMT
I voted to leave and that included a no deal if it came to it.....no hesitation If that's the case then you believe others did the same, there's no problem with a 2nd ref, because in a no deal vs remain, no deal would win. IF there is another referendum and most people want to leave then we will leave. There should be nothing to worry about if everything the leavers have said is to be believed. The only reason I can see for leavers to be worried about a 2nd referendum is because they're not confident of their own beliefs. That most people want a no deal Brexit. Personally I'm fine with either result as long as its an accurate reflection of what the British people want. If most want no deal Brexit then that's what it'll be. End of debate.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2019 12:03:20 GMT
If that's the case then you believe others did the same, there's no problem with a 2nd ref, because in a no deal vs remain, no deal would win. IF there is another referendum and most people want to leave then we will leave. There should be nothing to worry about if everything the leavers have said is to be believed. The only reason I can see for leavers to be worried about a 2nd referendum is because they're not confident of their own beliefs. That most people want a no deal Brexit. Personally I'm fine with either result as long as its an accurate reflection of what the British people want. If most want no deal Brexit then that's what it'll be. End of debate. If Remain wins do we get a fourth one? Or best of eleven? Is that hard Remain or soft Remain? Fully in or fully out? Does it include the Euro and Schengen? Do we get another go if moves are made towards an army?...did we vote for that,? People often make decisions on gut feelings, sometimes emotions .... sometimes they grasp the fundamental issues without needing to scrutinise every fact. Do we want to belong to the EU, in or out? We've had that referendum. You just can't accept the result.
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 12:06:24 GMT
If that's the case then you believe others did the same, there's no problem with a 2nd ref, because in a no deal vs remain, no deal would win. IF there is another referendum and most people want to leave then we will leave. There should be nothing to worry about if everything the leavers have said is to be believed. The only reason I can see for leavers to be worried about a 2nd referendum is because they're not confident of their own beliefs. That most people want a no deal Brexit. Personally I'm fine with either result as long as its an accurate reflection of what the British people want. If most want no deal Brexit then that's what it'll be. End of debate. So what would be on the ballot ? Leave with a deal No deal Remain ? This would simply split the leave vote and remain would win. If the true goal was to acertain what form of brexit leavers voted for then ‘Remain’ wouldn’t be an option, but this is an obvious attempt to get us back in the Eu through the back door. Probably been the plan all along, bog brexit down, checkmate it in paliament, cause a crisis the make us vote again.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 12:13:01 GMT
I voted to leave and that included a no deal if it came to it.....no hesitation If that's the case then you believe others did the same, there's no problem with a 2nd ref, because in a no deal vs remain, no deal would win. The first referendum hasn't even been delivered on, so there IS a problem. If it isn't delivered upon then it may aswell just be a nationwide learning exercise. But it wasn't a nationwide learning excercise, it was a referendum that requires enacting because Article 50 passed through parliament by 498 votes to 114. How in the fuck can you think there's no problem with another referendum...
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Post by foster on Aug 15, 2019 12:15:14 GMT
IF there is another referendum and most people want to leave then we will leave. There should be nothing to worry about if everything the leavers have said is to be believed. The only reason I can see for leavers to be worried about a 2nd referendum is because they're not confident of their own beliefs. That most people want a no deal Brexit. Personally I'm fine with either result as long as its an accurate reflection of what the British people want. If most want no deal Brexit then that's what it'll be. End of debate. So what would be on the ballot ? Leave with a deal No deal Remain ? This would simply split the leave vote and remain would win. If the true goal was to acertain what form of brexit leavers voted for then ‘Remain’ wouldn’t be an option, but this is an obvious attempt to get us back in the Eu through the back door. Probably been the plan all along, bog brexit down, checkmate it in paliament, cause a crisis the make us vote again. I don't decide these things mate but I would expect it would be leave in any scenario or remain. Whatever is fairest. They wouldn't split the leave option in 2. As for some kind of plan, I wouldn't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. It's what politicians do.
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Post by xchpotter on Aug 15, 2019 12:16:48 GMT
IF there is another referendum and most people want to leave then we will leave. There should be nothing to worry about if everything the leavers have said is to be believed. The only reason I can see for leavers to be worried about a 2nd referendum is because they're not confident of their own beliefs. That most people want a no deal Brexit. Personally I'm fine with either result as long as its an accurate reflection of what the British people want. If most want no deal Brexit then that's what it'll be. End of debate. So what would be on the ballot ? Leave with a deal No deal Remain ? This would simply split the leave vote and remain would win. If the true goal was to acertain what form of brexit leavers voted for then ‘Remain’ wouldn’t be an option, but this is an obvious attempt to get us back in the Eu through the back door. Probably been the plan all along, bog brexit down, checkmate it in paliament, cause a crisis the make us vote again. It would most likely be as you suggest to split the leave vote and then Remainers and the EU get their way. I wouldn’t put it past them to then legislate that any future referendums or attempts to leave the EU will not be legally allowed any any dissenters rounded up and shot. It will be championed as true democracy at work.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 15, 2019 12:23:54 GMT
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Post by foster on Aug 15, 2019 12:24:55 GMT
So what would be on the ballot ? Leave with a deal No deal Remain ? This would simply split the leave vote and remain would win. If the true goal was to acertain what form of brexit leavers voted for then ‘Remain’ wouldn’t be an option, but this is an obvious attempt to get us back in the Eu through the back door. Probably been the plan all along, bog brexit down, checkmate it in paliament, cause a crisis the make us vote again. It would most likely be as you suggest to split the leave vote and then Remainers and the EU get their way. I wouldn’t put it past them to then legislate that any future referendums or attempts to leave the EU will not be legally allowed any any dissenters rounded up and shot. It will be championed as true democracy at work. I doubt they would split the leave vote. That's far too obvious and even Remainers wouldn't agree with that. It would be a straight forward leave (based on the real life situation) or remain.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2019 12:26:44 GMT
Just so that I am fully informed, would ' Remain' on a future ballot include signing up to a EU army or not?...just for clarity
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 12:32:17 GMT
So what would be on the ballot ? Leave with a deal No deal Remain ? This would simply split the leave vote and remain would win. If the true goal was to acertain what form of brexit leavers voted for then ‘Remain’ wouldn’t be an option, but this is an obvious attempt to get us back in the Eu through the back door. Probably been the plan all along, bog brexit down, checkmate it in paliament, cause a crisis the make us vote again. I don't decide these things mate but I would expect it would be leave in any scenario or remain. Whatever is fairest. They wouldn't split the leave option in 2. As for some kind of plan, I wouldn't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. It's what politicians do. That’s just a rerun of the 1st referendum, and people were aware there was a chance of no deal the first time. A second ref only makes sense if it based on which form of brexit we take, remain shouldn’t be an option.
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Post by foster on Aug 15, 2019 12:42:04 GMT
I don't decide these things mate but I would expect it would be leave in any scenario or remain. Whatever is fairest. They wouldn't split the leave option in 2. As for some kind of plan, I wouldn't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. It's what politicians do. That’s just a rerun of the 1st referendum, and people were aware there was a chance of no deal the first time. A second ref only makes sense if it based on which form of brexit we take, remain shouldn’t be an option. There are no two leave options though. Just no deal.
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Post by Northy on Aug 15, 2019 12:45:04 GMT
They don’t have to agree with it, but we live in a democracy, we had a referendum and 17.4m people, more than have voted for anything in the history of this country, voted to leave, its pure arrogance for her to say she’s going to do everything she can to stop it. Have to disagree, you don't expect the tories to stop campaigning for their policies if the public vote labour in do you? Whether you agree or not, she is well within her right to campaign for her beliefs. She's trying to stop no deal and get a 2nd ref. No-one voted for no deal (please don't respond to that because they just didn't), and she wants to remain so obviously wants to see if the views of the people have changed. I imagine they haven't, but even so, she is campaigning for her political beliefs, same as anyone else. She isn't campaigning though, she's trying to overturn a democratic vote of which the terms were fully explained before hand - a once in a generation vote, no 2nd referendum etc. If the lib dems got in at the next GE, do you think Labour and Tories would barricade Buckingham palace to stop her seeing the queen, or hold people to ransom, threaten to stop trains and planes and businesses to stop them forming a government
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Post by foster on Aug 15, 2019 12:52:06 GMT
The only way leave would not win a 2nd referendum is if some of the previous leavers switch their votes because they prefer to remain rather than go through a no deal Brexit.
There is no other Brexit option available so it's either no deal or remain.
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 12:55:07 GMT
That’s just a rerun of the 1st referendum, and people were aware there was a chance of no deal the first time. A second ref only makes sense if it based on which form of brexit we take, remain shouldn’t be an option. There are no two leave options though. Just no deal. There might be if article50 is extended ? Which the EU might agree to if there’s a 2nd ref with remain on the ballot.
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