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Post by foster on Aug 14, 2019 22:37:58 GMT
Not an ideal situation but a 2nd referendum would definitively end the deadlock and future debate on the subject. This is no more than a coup. Yeah, f#*k my original vote. Let's do a rerun because the eu and parliament didn't like the original decision. Maybe I'll get it right next time. Democracy is dead if they made me revote. So if they devalue my origanal vote and 17 million others there will and rightfully so be a major back lash. Party of the people my arse. Not a coup is it really. It would just confirm the validity of the last vote. If leavers truly voted to leave, regardless of the type of exit, then there should be nothing to worry about. Leave will win and we'll exit the EU. There won't be any opposition.
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 14, 2019 22:46:43 GMT
If we manage to escape i think that the "EU" will make it a top priority to punish the UK. Barnier and Junker have said as much. Some on the EE board will ask" what do you expect?" Well if they genuinely want to cooperate with third countries and to help their own citizens then they should do their upmost to ensure smooth and productive relations. They should give the UK the respect that they would offer to any other country. I'm afraid that this project of ' Ever Closer Union", this vision for the European superstate, supercedes all else. It has been muted that the fact that Macron and Merkel don't have children has meant that they don't have a genuine commitment to the future. Not sure if that is true. But their extreme unchallengeable ideology is everything to them. I think your political argument is sound, but I believe it is money that makes the world go round not political ideologies. The world economy is slowing down, driven by the trade war between the two largest economies USA and China, and the economic uncertainty in Europe due to Brexit. The economic engine of Europe is Germany and their economy is in decline. Germany cannot continue to be the banker of the EU bailing out weak economies, if their economy shrinks and trade balance falters. Whilst the UK and French economies are roughly similar in size, the German economy is substantially bigger. Germany enjoys a £26 billion pa trade balance with the UK. I don't believe German industry and commerce will stand buy and let their government risk losing that because of political ideology. countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/ukedition.cnn.com/2019/08/14/business/germany-economy-gdp/index.htmlwww.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49342012To date the EU administration and mainland European countries have maintained a very united line on Brexit and German industry has publicly stood behind its government policy. But I do not think they will continue to give blind support if the EU economy turns sour.
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Post by Timmypotter on Aug 14, 2019 23:35:50 GMT
Looks like Jezza's gone all in. Well, it's been a long time coming but glad to see they finally have an actual Brexit policy. Be interesting to see how that is received. The polls will make interesting viewing over the next couple of weeks. I expect a general election to be called at which there will be a Tory/Brexit party pact. Labour could have led the way on Brexit but Islington is too far away from the rest of the country for them to see what is happening.
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Post by foster on Aug 15, 2019 0:35:54 GMT
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Post by Timmypotter on Aug 15, 2019 5:59:52 GMT
This is no more than a coup. Yeah, f#*k my original vote. Let's do a rerun because the eu and parliament didn't like the original decision. Maybe I'll get it right next time. Democracy is dead if they made me revote. So if they devalue my origanal vote and 17 million others there will and rightfully so be a major back lash. Party of the people my arse. Not a coup is it really. It would just confirm the validity of the last vote. If leavers truly voted to leave, regardless of the type of exit, then there should be nothing to worry about. Leave will win and we'll exit the EU. There won't be any opposition. The first referendum was allowed to happen because Westminster was certain we'd vote to remain. We didn't. A second referendum is only discussed in Westminster because they're certain we'd vote to remain. I don't think we would. It would solve nothing.
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Post by foster on Aug 15, 2019 6:07:07 GMT
Not a coup is it really. It would just confirm the validity of the last vote. If leavers truly voted to leave, regardless of the type of exit, then there should be nothing to worry about. Leave will win and we'll exit the EU. There won't be any opposition. The first referendum was allowed to happen because Westminster was certain we'd vote to remain. We didn't. A second referendum is only discussed in Westminster because they're certain we'll vote to remain. I don't think we would. It would solve nothing. If we vote to leave again then we'll leave. There's no way it could be held back twice. Not even the most staunch Remainers would dare to try that. I'd expect a higher turnout of voters this time. As I said though. If the majority of voters want us to leave then there's nothing for the leavers to worry about.
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Post by thevoid on Aug 15, 2019 6:20:31 GMT
The first referendum was allowed to happen because Westminster was certain we'd vote to remain. We didn't. A second referendum is only discussed in Westminster because they're certain we'll vote to remain. I don't think we would. It would solve nothing. If we vote to leave again then we'll leave. There's no way it could be held back twice. Not even the most staunch Remainers would dare to try that. I'd expect a higher turnout of voters this time. As I said though. If the majority of voters want us to leave then there's nothing for the leavers to worry about. www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/23/lib-dem-leader-jo-swinson-says-would-vote-against-brexit-even/amp/
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Post by Timmypotter on Aug 15, 2019 6:21:51 GMT
The first referendum was allowed to happen because Westminster was certain we'd vote to remain. We didn't. A second referendum is only discussed in Westminster because they're certain we'll vote to remain. I don't think we would. It would solve nothing. If we vote to leave again then we'll leave. There's no way it could be held back twice. Not even the most staunch Remainers would dare to try that. I'd expect a higher turnout of voters this time. As I said though. If the majority of voters want us to leave then there's nothing for the leavers to worry about. They would dare try it again as the result would be relatively close again. I don't think people have changed their minds and we're still split somewhere near the middle. How much more likely is it that a 53/47 vote to leave would be respected than the actual 52/48 result?
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Post by Timmypotter on Aug 15, 2019 6:23:40 GMT
Exactly. They don't give a shit what we tell them on this question.
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Post by henry on Aug 15, 2019 6:44:13 GMT
Corbyn as interim PM. What a fucking laughing stock this country has become
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Post by foster on Aug 15, 2019 6:45:42 GMT
If we vote to leave again then we'll leave. There's no way it could be held back twice. Not even the most staunch Remainers would dare to try that. I'd expect a higher turnout of voters this time. As I said though. If the majority of voters want us to leave then there's nothing for the leavers to worry about. They would dare try it again as the result would be relatively close again. I don't think people have changed their minds and we're still split somewhere near the middle. How much more likely is it that a 53/47 vote to leave would be respected than the actual 52/48 result? I'm not advocating it. I'm going with the flow. If we leave now then the Remainers will forever be saying that the referendum was based on lies. A second vote would at least kill that off. If leave won again then there would be no possible excuses left to stop it.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 15, 2019 6:49:28 GMT
Exactly. They don't give a shit what we tell them on this question. Caroline Lucas said the same (near enough). Personally, I think that’s fair enough. Why should they agree with something they strongly oppose.
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Post by foster on Aug 15, 2019 6:52:20 GMT
Exactly. They don't give a shit what we tell them on this question. Caroline Lucas said the same (near enough). Personally, I think that’s fair enough. Why should they agree with something they strongly oppose. There wouldn't be enough support to block it again in any case. Most remainers would accept the result of a 2nd referendum. Especially those in the public.
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Post by Northy on Aug 15, 2019 6:54:21 GMT
The BBC are in full remain overdrive, Hammond yesterday, Long Bailey this morning
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 7:24:22 GMT
Exactly. They don't give a shit what we tell them on this question. Caroline Lucas said the same (near enough). Personally, I think that’s fair enough. Why should they agree with something they strongly oppose. They don’t have to agree with it, but we live in a democracy, we had a referendum and 17.4m people, more than have voted for anything in the history of this country, voted to leave, its pure arrogance for her to say she’s going to do everything she can to stop it.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2019 7:36:30 GMT
If we manage to escape i think that the "EU" will make it a top priority to punish the UK. Barnier and Junker have said as much. Some on the EE board will ask" what do you expect?" Well if they genuinely want to cooperate with third countries and to help their own citizens then they should do their upmost to ensure smooth and productive relations. They should give the UK the respect that they would offer to any other country. I'm afraid that this project of ' Ever Closer Union", this vision for the European superstate, supercedes all else. It has been muted that the fact that Macron and Merkel don't have children has meant that they don't have a genuine commitment to the future. Not sure if that is true. But their extreme unchallengeable ideology is everything to them. I think your political argument is sound, but I believe it is money that makes the world go round not political ideologies. The world economy is slowing down, driven by the trade war between the two largest economies USA and China, and the economic uncertainty in Europe due to Brexit. The economic engine of Europe is Germany and their economy is in decline. Germany cannot continue to be the banker of the EU bailing out weak economies, if their economy shrinks and trade balance falters. Whilst the UK and French economies are roughly similar in size, the German economy is substantially bigger. Germany enjoys a £26 billion pa trade balance with the UK. I don't believe German industry and commerce will stand buy and let their government risk losing that because of political ideology. countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/ukedition.cnn.com/2019/08/14/business/germany-economy-gdp/index.htmlwww.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49342012To date the EU administration and mainland European countries have maintained a very united line on Brexit and German industry has publicly stood behind its government policy. But I do not think they will continue to give blind support if the EU economy turns sour. I agree with that Mr Coke. That's my point throughout. In your final paragraph...when you said " To date" I alreadyreplied to Serpico. " That's when it begins to unravel" in respect of "No doubt there are fanatics at the EU who would like to punish us, but what about the leaders of the various countries ? I’m not so sure they’d like to see any damage done to trade relations, Even Germany only just avoided a recession just lately. The project is about Political AND Economic union. Hence control the Euro= control the economy. The EU leaders act in their own self interest ( good jobs, salaries, conditions) AND in commitment of the project. They do have the cautious backing of business in their respective countries whilst things are going reasonably. My point is that once we leave the EU leaders are prepared to sacrifice their own countries' businesses ( if they could get away with it....but won't) for the sake of the project..... that's when it does start to unravel.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 15, 2019 7:36:31 GMT
Caroline Lucas said the same (near enough). Personally, I think that’s fair enough. Why should they agree with something they strongly oppose. They don’t have to agree with it, but we live in a democracy, we had a referendum and 17.4m people, more than have voted for anything in the history of this country, voted to leave, its pure arrogance for her to say she’s going to do everything she can to stop it. I think it’s more a case of her being disingenuous than arrogant. She, and others of her ilk, are using “No Deal Brexit” to disguise her true intention which is to stop Brexit altogether.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 15, 2019 7:38:28 GMT
Corbyn as interim PM. What a fucking laughing stock this country has become It's not a serious suggestion Corbyn is just shitting it about all the remain votes he is losing so many in fact his seat could become a marginal Make an offer you know will be turned down so he can keep up the pretence of being for remain and leave.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2019 8:07:06 GMT
There is also a big presumption/ issue not addressed that if the UK government decides to "Remain" then that's the end of it from both the perspective of the EU leaders and the British public. I don't think that things can ever be the same again even if we " Remain". The project hasn't finished, it's a process.....as others have said...is it hard Remain/ soft Remain..... continue on the path of ever closer union.... implicit that we all agree with the European army, free movement etc, no opt outs..... "isn't it the right time to join the Euro?.... there's no room for small currencies in this brave new world"
The Labour party have really boxed themselves into a corner by playing politics with BREXIT rather than leaving and are now vying for the only position left to oppose Johnson, a position currently occupied by the Lib Dems..I don't think it matters to them anymore if they sincerely believe in the position.....which is one quality that people like about Farage, consistency on the major issue... and that id why he can always answer questions on the issues without evasion..... he believes what he says.
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 8:14:00 GMT
Corbyn as interim PM. What a fucking laughing stock this country has become It's not a serious suggestion Corbyn is just shitting it about all the remain votes he is losing so many in fact his seat could become a marginal Make an offer you know will be turned down so he can keep up the pretence of being for remain and leave. By trying to please everyone he’s ended up pleasing nobody., but tbf he is in a tricky position, labour voters are split on brexit, a large proportion of them support remain but also a sizable portion are anti Eu, so whichever side he comes down on brexit he will lose significant support, enough to ensure he can’t win a general election. Labour have never wanted brexit resolved, they wanted to bog it down, blame the Tories and force a general election.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 15, 2019 8:18:34 GMT
There is also a big presumption/ issue not addressed that if the UK government decides to "Remain" then that's the end of it from both the perspective of the EU leaders and the British public. I don't think that things can ever be the same again even if we " Remain". The project hasn't finished, it's a process.....as others have said...is it hard Remain/ soft Remain..... continue on the path of ever closer union.... implicit that we all agree with the European army, free movement etc, no opt outs..... "isn't it the right time to join the Euro?.... there's no room for small currencies in this brave new world" The Labour party have really boxed themselves into a corner by playing politics with BREXIT rather than leaving and are now vying for the only position left to oppose Johnson, a position currently occupied by the Lib Dems..I don't think it matters to them anymore if they sincerely believe in the position.....which is one quality that people like about Farage, consistency on the major issue... and that id why he can always answer questions on the issues without evasion..... he believes what he says. The axis of the world has shifted - in the UK at least. From left vs right, socialism vs capitalism, private vs public to Brexit v Remain. And it is a bi-polar world. Something Boris has recognised. Something the Lib Dems recognised from the very start Something Corbyn has not recognised (and nor did TM). This is why Corbyn has real problems and why the Lib Dems immediately punted his proposal last night into touch. They've established some ground and do not intend to concede any of it to Corbyn.
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 8:20:05 GMT
There is also a big presumption/ issue not addressed that if the UK government decides to "Remain" then that's the end of it from both the perspective of the EU leaders and the British public. I don't think that things can ever be the same again even if we " Remain". The project hasn't finished, it's a process.....as others have said...is it hard Remain/ soft Remain..... continue on the path of ever closer union.... implicit that we all agree with the European army, free movement etc, no opt outs..... "isn't it the right time to join the Euro?.... there's no room for small currencies in this brave new world" The Labour party have really boxed themselves into a corner by playing politics with BREXIT rather than leaving and are now vying for the only position left to oppose Johnson, a position currently occupied by the Lib Dems..I don't think it matters to them anymore if they sincerely believe in the position.....which is one quality that people like about Farage, consistency on the major issue... and that id why he can always answer questions on the issues without evasion..... he believes what he says. If we have a 2nd referendum and vote to remain do we then have a 3rd referendum on the terms of remaining ? And will there be an option to leave ? 🤔
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2019 8:20:49 GMT
If we weren't already IN....I wonder how the public would respond to the question... " Do you want to belong to the EU , an organisation whose purpose is economic and political union. It will involve giving up more and more of your Sovereignty and independence. We will control your laws, borders and policies. We will speak for you on the world stage..... that way your voice will be heard 🤔. You'll be fine with our ideas such as a European army ( just trust us and hope for the best) , but if not....well, I don't really know what you can do about it. There will be no opposition to this, ever closer union is the goal, you won't elect us , the system will be remote but hidden in a labyrinth of bureucracy and control but in a pseudo democracy. Oh and it will cost you.....but don't worry we will give you some of your money back....to spend on projects that we approve of.....even though we don't really know a lot about living in the UK ( we don't believe in local representative MPs, just administrators)".
Mind you, we've had the referendum
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 8:35:06 GMT
Really, what do you do if you’re Corbyn ? He’s in a no win situation, imo it’s over for him but a new labour leader would likely face similar problems.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2019 9:08:27 GMT
Any pretence of democracy and representation seems to have gone out of the window for some of these people. It is sheer arrogance.... Wollaston is only an MP on behalf of the electorate. She does not speak for her constituents and knows it; many of whom voted Conservative not for her personally ( in a Party Political sense) in actuality. There was a back bench bill a while back that should an MP change party a by election should automatically be triggered...... Wollaston backed it. www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2011-11-23b.317.0&s=chris+skidmore+%22by+election%22+speaker:24713#g317.2
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 9:57:58 GMT
There is also a big presumption/ issue not addressed that if the UK government decides to "Remain" then that's the end of it from both the perspective of the EU leaders and the British public. I don't think that things can ever be the same again even if we " Remain". The project hasn't finished, it's a process.....as others have said...is it hard Remain/ soft Remain..... continue on the path of ever closer union.... implicit that we all agree with the European army, free movement etc, no opt outs..... "isn't it the right time to join the Euro?.... there's no room for small currencies in this brave new world" The Labour party have really boxed themselves into a corner by playing politics with BREXIT rather than leaving and are now vying for the only position left to oppose Johnson, a position currently occupied by the Lib Dems..I don't think it matters to them anymore if they sincerely believe in the position.....which is one quality that people like about Farage, consistency on the major issue... and that id why he can always answer questions on the issues without evasion..... he believes what he says. The axis of the world has shifted - in the UK at least. From left vs right, socialism vs capitalism, private vs public to Brexit v Remain. And it is a bi-polar world. Something Boris has recognised. Something the Lib Dems recognised from the very start Something Corbyn has not recognised (and nor did TM). This is why Corbyn has real problems and why the Lib Dems immediately punted his proposal last night into touch. They've established some ground and do not intend to concede any of it to Corbyn. People want clarity, the libdems have been shrewd to come out squarely against stopping brexit, they’ve managed to suck up some labour remain Support. Corbyns fence sitting is backfiring on him and he’s starting to realise it, labour voters could easily drift to any of the other parties, that’s a problem unique to labour because I don’t think conservative voters would go anywhere else other than the brexit party and they’d only do that if Boris softens brexit. If Corbyn wouldn’t back Mays half baked brexit which form of brexit would he actually support ? Anything weaker than Mays agreement wouldn’t constitute a proper brexit, Labour have never really been clear on what brexit they would support, they’ve just steadfastly opposed everything.
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Post by thevoid on Aug 15, 2019 10:03:43 GMT
Corbyn as interim PM. What a fucking laughing stock this country has become Frightening
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2019 10:14:04 GMT
Corbyn as interim PM. What a fucking laughing stock this country has become Frightening O'Flynn often makes his points with dry humour.
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Post by serpico on Aug 15, 2019 10:33:21 GMT
O'Flynn often makes his points with dry humour. [ 😄 That pretty much sums up labours position.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 10:36:30 GMT
These politicians are on their way back furious with boris wanting to stand by the referendum result And not a single one of them are actually acknowledging the majority 52% that expect the result to be carried out
It's like we dont exist
Regardless of your stance on brexit that's very worrying for any modern democracy
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