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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 18:32:26 GMT
Hear ye oh hear ye... France and Australia have an agreement!!!
Those bastards.
If that's not a good enough excuse to leave the EU then nothing is!
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 13, 2019 21:44:49 GMT
If the original post is to be believed, then France or Germany weren't there either. Sweden was though. The agreement is between the French and the Australians and France pull the strings in the EU as the deputy head to Germany . If , in your love of the EU , you can't see that it's up to you. At least we agree on each country acting in its own self interest.....the Eurogroup meetings are essential to the EU and as you know Merkel and Macron dominate the EU...I don't think even you could possibly argue that the UK is central player. I've now spent enough on this simple point do I will leave you in your own worlds. No need to get personal. The UK are/were one of the more important players in the EU. We wouldn't have got the rebate and opt outs from the Euro and Schenghen if we were not. For sure France and Germany are central to the EU, because they are two of the strongest economies and are founding members. In any organisation like this, the largest economies wield more power - see the US in NATO or England in the United Kingdom. But anyway, it seems the answer to my original question is that no British company tried to get this contract. So I don't really see what different it makes that a French company won the tender. I would imagine if an EU country hadn't won the contract it would've been used to show the weakness and futility of the EU. Now it did win the contract, it is spun to show that Britain is the victim. I'm beginning to wonder if "Always the victim, never our fault" should be the new national anthem post-Brexit.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 13, 2019 21:51:45 GMT
The agreement is between the French and the Australians and France pull the strings in the EU as the deputy head to Germany . If , in your love of the EU , you can't see that it's up to you. At least we agree on each country acting in its own self interest.....the Eurogroup meetings are essential to the EU and as you know Merkel and Macron dominate the EU...I don't think even you could possibly argue that the UK is central player. I've now spent enough on this simple point do I will leave you in your own worlds. No need to get personal. The UK are/were one of the more important players in the EU. We wouldn't have got the rebate and opt outs from the Euro and Schenghen if we were not. For sure France and Germany are central to the EU, because they are two of the strongest economies and are founding members. In any organisation like this, the largest economies wield more power - see the US in NATO or England in the United Kingdom. But anyway, it seems the answer to my original question is that no British company tried to get this contract. So I don't really see what different it makes that a French company won the tender. I would imagine if an EU country hadn't won the contract it would've been used to show the weakness and futility of the EU. Now it did win the contract, it is spun to show that Britain is the victim. I'm beginning to wonder if "Always the victim, never our fault" should be the new national anthem post-Brexit. As you say countries act in their own self interest. The EU is dominated by Germany and France.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 13, 2019 21:53:49 GMT
No need to get personal. The UK are/were one of the more important players in the EU. We wouldn't have got the rebate and opt outs from the Euro and Schenghen if we were not. For sure France and Germany are central to the EU, because they are two of the strongest economies and are founding members. In any organisation like this, the largest economies wield more power - see the US in NATO or England in the United Kingdom. But anyway, it seems the answer to my original question is that no British company tried to get this contract. So I don't really see what different it makes that a French company won the tender. I would imagine if an EU country hadn't won the contract it would've been used to show the weakness and futility of the EU. Now it did win the contract, it is spun to show that Britain is the victim. I'm beginning to wonder if "Always the victim, never our fault" should be the new national anthem post-Brexit. As you say countries act in their own self interest. The EU is dominated by Germany and France. It is certainly led by them. Like the US in NATO and England in the UK. Most things have to be led by someone/something.
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Post by sorethumbs on Aug 13, 2019 21:56:20 GMT
Whatever kind of retort that was supposed to be was a massive fail. Well done
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Post by foster on Aug 14, 2019 4:39:57 GMT
As you say countries act in their own self interest. The EU is dominated by Germany and France. It is certainly led by them. Like the US in NATO and England in the UK. Most things have to be led by someone/something. Best ignore him mate. He's a WUM.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 14, 2019 6:18:21 GMT
You might have thought that Philip Hammond after having been a key figure in May’s disastrous administration might have decided to go quietly into that good night. But no... Hammond says PM's demands 'wreck' chance of new deal. I doubt there is anyone (other than the Maybot herself) who is less qualified to advise on how to secure a new deal from Europe than Hammond. Even Jeremy Corbyn. What we can see from his comments is why May’s administration were so hopeless.
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Post by foster on Aug 14, 2019 6:31:33 GMT
You might have thought that Philip Hammond after having been a key figure in May’s disastrous administration might have decided to go quietly into that good night. But no... Hammond says PM's demands 'wreck' chance of new deal. I doubt there is anyone (other than the Maybot herself) who is less qualified to advise on how to secure a new deal from Europe than Hammond. Even Jeremy Corbyn. What we can see from his comments is why May’s administration were so hopeless. Hammond is right though. People wanting a no deal Brexit is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Everyone knows it's going to damage the UK, but still people (of the 'I'm alright Jack' mindset) want it, just to prove a point. As for the ability to negotiate the kind of deal people were expecting.. no one could ever have negotiated a deal that encompasses what was promised by the leave campaign... absolutely no one. You can't deliver the impossible. It was always going to come down to a Hard Brexit, so that should have been clearly stated from the start.
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Post by henry on Aug 14, 2019 6:37:52 GMT
You might have thought that Philip Hammond after having been a key figure in May’s disastrous administration might have decided to go quietly into that good night. But no... Hammond says PM's demands 'wreck' chance of new deal. I doubt there is anyone (other than the Maybot herself) who is less qualified to advise on how to secure a new deal from Europe than Hammond. Even Jeremy Corbyn. What we can see from his comments is why May’s administration were so hopeless. Hammond is right though. People wanting a no deal Brexit is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Everyone knows it's going to damage the UK, but still people (of the 'I'm alright Jack' mindset) want it, just to prove a point. As for the ability to negotiate the kind of deal people were expecting.. no one could ever have negotiated a deal that encompasses what was promised by the leave campaign... absolutely no one. You can't deliver the impossible. It was always going to come down to a Hard Brexit, so that should have been clearly stated from the start. Hard and Soft Brexit only came about after the referendum result. It was leave or stay.
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Post by foster on Aug 14, 2019 6:54:16 GMT
Hammond is right though. People wanting a no deal Brexit is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Everyone knows it's going to damage the UK, but still people (of the 'I'm alright Jack' mindset) want it, just to prove a point. As for the ability to negotiate the kind of deal people were expecting.. no one could ever have negotiated a deal that encompasses what was promised by the leave campaign... absolutely no one. You can't deliver the impossible. It was always going to come down to a Hard Brexit, so that should have been clearly stated from the start. Hard and Soft Brexit only came about after the referendum result. It was leave or stay. 'Leave' during the referendum was marketed as a 'Soft Brexit'. So it was actually Soft Brexit or Stay.
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Post by Northy on Aug 14, 2019 7:13:58 GMT
You might have thought that Philip Hammond after having been a key figure in May’s disastrous administration might have decided to go quietly into that good night. But no... Hammond says PM's demands 'wreck' chance of new deal. I doubt there is anyone (other than the Maybot herself) who is less qualified to advise on how to secure a new deal from Europe than Hammond. Even Jeremy Corbyn. What we can see from his comments is why May’s administration were so hopeless. Hammond is right though. People wanting a no deal Brexit is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Everyone knows it's going to damage the UK, but still people (of the 'I'm alright Jack' mindset) want it, just to prove a point. As for the ability to negotiate the kind of deal people were expecting.. no one could ever have negotiated a deal that encompasses what was promised by the leave campaign... absolutely no one. You can't deliver the impossible. It was always going to come down to a Hard Brexit, so that should have been clearly stated from the start. we were told over 3 years ago that if we voted to leave then immediately there would be a recession, 800,000 job losses, 10% drop in house prices, and that is just the conservative numbers, were George Osbornes words, stood next to Cameron. People were prepared to risk it for what they believed in. We all know now it was project fear and the exact opposite happened.
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 14, 2019 7:40:21 GMT
Hammond is right though. People wanting a no deal Brexit is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Everyone knows it's going to damage the UK, but still people (of the 'I'm alright Jack' mindset) want it, just to prove a point. As for the ability to negotiate the kind of deal people were expecting.. no one could ever have negotiated a deal that encompasses what was promised by the leave campaign... absolutely no one. You can't deliver the impossible. It was always going to come down to a Hard Brexit, so that should have been clearly stated from the start. we were told over 3 years ago that if we voted to leave then immediately there would be a recession, 800,000 job losses, 10% drop in house prices, and that is just the conservative numbers, were George Osbornes words, stood next to Cameron. People were prepared to risk it for what they believed in. We all know now it was project fear and the exact opposite happened. But there have been job loses & house prices have dropped by at least 10%. The opposite has not happened...
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 14, 2019 7:43:27 GMT
Hard and Soft Brexit only came about after the referendum result. It was leave or stay. 'Leave' during the referendum was marketed as a 'Soft Brexit'. So it was actually Soft Brexit or Stay. Total nonsense. Like most everything you've posted over the past couple of days. The notion of a hard Vs soft Brexit only emerged after the referendum as potentially offering a palatable Brexit for remain voters by allowing, in a soft Brexit, us to stay in the single market. Something that was explicitly ruled out during the referendum campaign. In other words, the complete opposite of the pish you've posted.
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Post by Northy on Aug 14, 2019 8:02:07 GMT
we were told over 3 years ago that if we voted to leave then immediately there would be a recession, 800,000 job losses, 10% drop in house prices, and that is just the conservative numbers, were George Osbornes words, stood next to Cameron. People were prepared to risk it for what they believed in. We all know now it was project fear and the exact opposite happened. But there have been job loses & house prices have dropped by at least 10%. The opposite has not happened... Yes it has, the unemployment rate has continually fallen for the last few years and is hundreds of thousands lower than June 2016, we are at record employment levels and lowest unemployment levels since 1974 (ONS) House prices are overall 1.2 % up from this time last year, detached houses the biggest riser and terraced the lowest (shows income levels are rising) and the average value of a house has risen £26,000 since the referendum (land registry)
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Post by henry on Aug 14, 2019 8:04:04 GMT
Hard and Soft Brexit only came about after the referendum result. It was leave or stay. 'Leave' during the referendum was marketed as a 'Soft Brexit'. So it was actually Soft Brexit or Stay. Lol
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 14, 2019 8:09:16 GMT
But there have been job loses & house prices have dropped by at least 10%. The opposite has not happened... Yes it has, the unemployment rate has continually fallen for the last few years and is hundreds of thousands lower than June 2016, we are at record employment levels and lowest unemployment levels since 1974 (ONS) House prices are overall 1.2 % up from this time last year, detached houses the biggest riser and terraced the lowest (shows income levels are rising) and the average value of a house has risen £26,000 since the referendum (land registry) You can’t count 0 hrs as jobs. I have witnessed people selling houses & they have dropped the prices.
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Post by foster on Aug 14, 2019 8:29:59 GMT
Hammond is right though. People wanting a no deal Brexit is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Everyone knows it's going to damage the UK, but still people (of the 'I'm alright Jack' mindset) want it, just to prove a point. As for the ability to negotiate the kind of deal people were expecting.. no one could ever have negotiated a deal that encompasses what was promised by the leave campaign... absolutely no one. You can't deliver the impossible. It was always going to come down to a Hard Brexit, so that should have been clearly stated from the start. we were told over 3 years ago that if we voted to leave then immediately there would be a recession, 800,000 job losses, 10% drop in house prices, and that is just the conservative numbers, were George Osbornes words, stood next to Cameron. People were prepared to risk it for what they believed in. We all know now it was project fear and the exact opposite happened. Even if that is the case, the exact opposite of what the leave campaign said would happen also happened. In fact, nothing either side said would happen has happened. I'm not sure what you mean by what they believe in? We already have everything. What more do people really expect? There's this false sense of injustice that leavers seem to have where they seem to blame the EU for all of life's problems. Like we've been at war, or occupied, or oppressed for the past 30 years by Hitler or Napoleon. You only need to look at what's happening in many other parts of the world to see how fortunate we are in the UK - and to have our peaceful EU neighbours. People who moan about sovereignty and democracy really need to get a grip of reality and look at the state of the world and where it's heading. People from Africa, the middle East, Palestine, Kashmir and even Hong Kong must find the notion that we're complaining about that laughable, if not insulting. Those places have real problems and real issues with democracy, independence and sovereignty. We don't. The Britain of 60 years ago where everyone was British and towns flourished with local butchers, bakers and candlestick makers sadly doesn't exist anymore and never will. The world has moved on, and so too has the UK. For better or worse (likely) that's the reality of the situation, and running away from the EU rather than trying to be part of it is not going to benefit us or them. ---- Let's look at money... Apparently we didn't have the funds to improve the NHS as we were sending it all to Brussels. If that's the case then where did all this money being spent now come from? On top of the 'divorce bill' as well. This seems to be conveniently ignored by leavers, yet isn't that one of the main things they voted for? To have this kind of money invested in the UK public services. On top of the investments in police (only back to what it was 9 years ago), border control and prison spaces, we've magically mustered up billions (6 billion and counting) just to pay for the 'impact' of a no deal Brexit and to supplement the industries that will be damaged as a result. I wonder how long those support payments will actually last and why this money was never used before? It certainly wasn't the EU who held it back and decided to keep it in the bank. It was the UK government. ---- The referendum was a joke from start to finish. I honestly don't care what was said by either side as it was all populist propaganda bullshit. People can moan about project fear and all the bollocks that's still being spouted today if they please, but we're past that stage and all I'm interested in is what's best for the UK now. ..and in my opinion I don't think standing alone is an option. It's either get into bed with the EU (remain) or get into bed with the US (leave).. and I much prefer to get into bed with someone who's going to let me have some say over what positions we're going to do. (the EU)
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Post by foster on Aug 14, 2019 8:31:09 GMT
'Leave' during the referendum was marketed as a 'Soft Brexit'. So it was actually Soft Brexit or Stay. Total nonsense. Like most everything you've posted over the past couple of days. The notion of a hard Vs soft Brexit only emerged after the referendum as potentially offering a palatable Brexit for remainder by allowing, in a soft Brexit, us to stay in the single market. Something that was explicitly ruled out during the referendum campaign. In other words, the complete opposite of the pish you've posted. Get out of the wrong side of bed this morning precious?
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Post by foster on Aug 14, 2019 8:38:55 GMT
Yes it has, the unemployment rate has continually fallen for the last few years and is hundreds of thousands lower than June 2016, we are at record employment levels and lowest unemployment levels since 1974 (ONS) House prices are overall 1.2 % up from this time last year, detached houses the biggest riser and terraced the lowest (shows income levels are rising) and the average value of a house has risen £26,000 since the referendum (land registry) You can’t count 0 hrs as jobs. I have witnessed people selling houses & they have dropped the prices. Can't believe people are using rising incomes and lower unemployment levels as a reason to leave the EU... when these are happening while we're 'IN' the EU.
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Post by serpico on Aug 14, 2019 10:11:22 GMT
when it all shakes out we’ll probably be no better or worse off economically, there could be some short term harm, but nobody knows for definite, there’s to Many variables and unknowns.
As much as they’d like to I don’t think the EU is in a position to really punish us, many Eu nations aren’t in great shape at the moment, they need us to buy their products, even Germany is close to recession.
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Post by sorethumbs on Aug 14, 2019 10:24:45 GMT
Yes it has, the unemployment rate has continually fallen for the last few years and is hundreds of thousands lower than June 2016, we are at record employment levels and lowest unemployment levels since 1974 (ONS) House prices are overall 1.2 % up from this time last year, detached houses the biggest riser and terraced the lowest (shows income levels are rising) and the average value of a house has risen £26,000 since the referendum (land registry) You can’t count 0 hrs as jobs. I have witnessed people selling houses & they have dropped the prices. So because you've 'witnessed people' it's obviously accepted it's a nationwide trend? Of the gains in employment figures - these are all 0hrs contracts are they?
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Post by sorethumbs on Aug 14, 2019 10:27:29 GMT
You can’t count 0 hrs as jobs. I have witnessed people selling houses & they have dropped the prices. Can't believe people are using rising incomes and lower unemployment levels as a reason to leave the EU... when these are happening while we're 'IN' the EU. They're not. The more the monkey climbs the tree.....
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 14, 2019 10:33:39 GMT
when it all shakes out we’ll probably be no better or worse off economicly, there could be some short term harm, but nobody knows for definite, there’s too Many variables and unknowns. As much as they’d like to I don’t think the EU is in a position to really punish us, many Eu nations aren’t in great shape at the moment, they need us to buy their products, even Germany is close to recession. I also think that some Remainers have tried to portray the leave argument as" Leave the EU and all out problems Will be resolved, utopia"....and then they have tried to attack this imaginery position. This country has many problems whether we are in or out of the EU.... the gap between rich and poor, a genuine reason for hope and aspirations for young people in a changing global world which demands particularly types of jobs and not others, the country's/ individuals' reliance on debt ( we will be in for a shock), overcrowding and pressure on the infrastructure, increasing crime levels, culture clash, reliance on the service industries instead of manufacturing...etc etc. Most leavers want self control, self determination, sovereignty democracy. That's why it has been such a fundamental issue. Also it is the reason that the EU will not easily agree to a trade deal.... because it's not about trade but about economic and political control.
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Post by 4372 on Aug 14, 2019 10:39:05 GMT
The notion of a hard Vs soft Brexit only emerged after the referendum as potentially offering a palatable Brexit for remainder by allowing, in a soft Brexit, us to stay in the single market. Something that was explicitly ruled out during the referendum campaign. Where did the Leave Campaigns rule this out ? (not staying in the Single Market) Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/269068/brexit?page=891#ixzz5wZRP7lap
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Post by musik on Aug 14, 2019 10:40:17 GMT
shows income levels are rising Hello Northy! Looking at this from a neutral perspective, from Scandinavia obviously, but I do wonder: when you write "income levels" what do you mean then? Absolute or relative figures? Nominal or real values? Nominal income / real income? And how is the income situation in Britain within different professions? Has some got better real income and others worse?
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Post by 4372 on Aug 14, 2019 10:42:40 GMT
You can’t count 0 hrs as jobs. I have witnessed people selling houses & they have dropped the prices. So because you've 'witnessed people' it's obviously accepted it's a nationwide trend? Of the gains in employment figures - these are all 0hrs contracts are they? The point is that we need a fixed definition of the word "employment" that we can agree on. You are correct if you think that some jobs recently created are full time, permanent positions. Equally, there are many jobs that are zero hours, or limited time hours. They do not offer people a way forward.
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Post by serpico on Aug 14, 2019 10:42:50 GMT
For me is wasn’t just about our relationship with the EU today per-se, but where it was heading, nobody can deny it’s totally transformed from what it was originally in the early 70s, decade on decade it has amassed more influence and power over us, do people think this trend was going to stop ? Very doubtful, big bureaucratic institutions don’t have a tendency to reverse course and give back power, they double down, it was obviously moving forward incrementally to eventually create some kind of United States of Europe down the line.
I’d like to know why so many people who call themselves leftists support the Eu ? It actually prevents nations from privitising certain industries and is basically a haven for crony corporatists.
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Post by serpico on Aug 14, 2019 10:54:39 GMT
i think it’s fair to say some leave campaigners did campaign on softer forms of brexit, I do remember farage and others suggesting Norway options etc, Daniel hannan saying “it ludicrous to suggest our place in the single market will be at risk” etc but I think most leave voters voted for a clean break from the EU, out kit and caboodle and the question was “in or out” not “in a little bit, out a little bit”
Essentially people voted no deal (which isn’t really no deal, we’ll still trade with Europe)
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Post by foster on Aug 14, 2019 11:01:18 GMT
For me is wasn’t just about our relationship with the EU today per-se, but where it was heading, nobody can deny it’s totally transformed from what it was originally in the early 70s, decade on decade it has amassed more influence and power over us, do people think this trend was going to stop ? Very doubtful, big bureaucratic institutions don’t have a tendency to reverse course and give back power, they double down, it was obviously moving forward incrementally to eventually create some kind of United States of Europe down the line. I’d like to know why so many people who call themselves leftists support the Eu ? It actually prevents nations from privitising certain industries and is basically a haven for crony corporatists. I believe in an EU in which the UK takes a strong leading role, with Germany, with France, with other strong EU economic countries to create something which serves the greater good of Europe (including the UK). I don't believe the UK can stand alone in the world today and I firmly believe that we will get taken advantage of by other economic powers (US for example) after Brexit. Bojo and co will sign whatever deals they can just to make it 'look' like we've come out of Brexit in better shape than when we were in it, but at what future cost. They'll be long gone by that time. A bit like Cameron is now. Being part of the EU is good, not bad, and certainly not as repressive as some people on here make out. The EU cannot just decide that it wants an EU army without our consent. It cannot make unilateral decisions without the agreement of it's members. All these ideas are exactly that.... just 'Ideas' put forward for discussion and debate.
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Post by serpico on Aug 14, 2019 11:13:56 GMT
For me is wasn’t just about our relationship with the EU today per-se, but where it was heading, nobody can deny it’s totally transformed from what it was originally in the early 70s, decade on decade it has amassed more influence and power over us, do people think this trend was going to stop ? Very doubtful, big bureaucratic institutions don’t have a tendency to reverse course and give back power, they double down, it was obviously moving forward incrementally to eventually create some kind of United States of Europe down the line. I’d like to know why so many people who call themselves leftists support the Eu ? It actually prevents nations from privitising certain industries and is basically a haven for crony corporatists. I believe in an EU in which the UK takes a strong leading role, with Germany, with France, with other strong EU economic countries to create something which serves the greater good of Europe (including the UK). I don't believe the UK can stand alone in the world today and I firmly believe that we will get taken advantage of by other economic powers (US for example) after Brexit. Bojo and co will sign whatever deals they can just to make it 'look' like we've come out of Brexit in better shape than when we were in it, but at what future cost. They'll be long gone by that time. A bit like Cameron is now. Being part of the EU is good, not bad, and certainly not as repressive as some people on here make out. The EU cannot just decide that it wants an EU army without our consent. It cannot make unilateral decisions without the agreement of it's members. All these ideas are exactly that.... just 'Ideas' put forward for discussion and debate. What makes us less capable of standing alone than, say, Canada ? Lots of countries thrive despite not being a part of the EU.
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