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Post by partickpotter on Mar 25, 2019 7:38:33 GMT
A genuine question; what is it about the EU that the Scots generally like that the English generally don't? What are they getting from it or being told about it that we're not? Historically the Scots and the French have always got along. A mutual dislike of the country in between might help. Also, campaigning for an independent Scotland might seem less nationalistic and populist if it came with the policy of separate EU membership. Not really. The Auld Alliance was in place in varying forms for just over 250 years - and was something of a one sided deal. If England attacked France, Scotland had to send soldiers while if England attacked Scotland the French were obliged to do... nothing. And this is something that some nationalists up here look back to as a golden time. But perception is everything. Of course, some might argue the Auld Alliance was in reality a precursor to modern day EU institutions in so far as unequal distribution of benfits and contributions are concerned.
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Post by salopstick on Mar 25, 2019 8:29:20 GMT
A genuine question; what is it about the EU that the Scots generally like that the English generally don't? What are they getting from it or being told about it that we're not? The EU funding is spent on a wide variety of items but the main items are the CAP and regional & social funding to the poorer regions of the EU. The regional and social money that is "returned" to the UK largely goes to England, but on an expenditure per head of population England receives considerably less than the other UK counties: Wales: c.140 Euro, NI: c. 55 Euro, Scotland: c.45 Euro, and England: c.25 Euro. (based on EU planned expenditure 2014-20: researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7847/CBP-7847.pdf ) Naturally the Scots are concerned that if we leave the EU they will not be treated as well by a UK government in London. Note: The UK, Germany, and Netherlands are the major net financial contributors to the EU; almost every other country benefits financially. France gets out what it puts in. Germany and Netherlands enjoy a huge balance of trade benefit with the UK, £20 billion and £8 billion respectively. The UK not only is major funder of the EU, it also has a major trading deficit which is getting worse. Meanwhile our trade balance with the rest of the world is positive and increasing, hence in the future we will be much better outside the EU. www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/08/why-the-uk-trade-deficit-with-the-eu-is-woeful-and-wideningMany countries benefit from being in the EU, in fact you could argue all do except the UK. Someone has to pay for everyone else's benefit. A significant proportion of our GDP is earned by selling to the EU, which some argue is a benefit, but virtually all we sell the EU need and will continue to buy. (They wouldn't buy off us by choice - except maybe whisky!) The only sector where we could lose business is financial but the growth in the financial sector in the rest of the world is going to be massive as their living standards rise, whereas there will be minimal growth in the living standards of Europe except in the small east EU countries. The jocks and welsh and ni would argue that after Brexit their funding would increase. And including England it probably would
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Post by starkiller on Mar 25, 2019 9:01:06 GMT
And how is the no deal petition doing? Should we also halve the signatories on that? It's hilarious that you fools expect us genuine leave voters to give a flying fuck about 5 million online votes of which as mentioned I'd love to know how many votes would genuinely count at the polls yet all along you've totally shit on, put down, said we were wrong and generally ignored the democratic vote of over 17 million genuine voters. Yet it's us that should be taking note of your irrelevant far to late to give a shit poll. You couldn't make it up. Apparently they think it means that public opinion has changed. That's how retarded their thinking is. No. It means of the remain vote, some have gone online and hysterically signed multiple times, and some remain voters in London have gone for a dog walk, picnic and tantrum. No evidence whatsoever of any change of opinion, but that's how juvenile remain think is. A naive, illogical hissy-fit... Anyone would think it's the mind of teenage girls and students... Oh, wait ...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 9:13:26 GMT
Strange isn't it that the only people pushing for the "Put it to the people", "People's Vote", "Second Referendum", call it what you will, are those that LOST the 2016 "Once in a Lifetime" Referendum and just won't/can't accept the result. They're still whinging and bleating like cry babies nearly three years later. All this "you don't know what you voted for" crap is just another of their endless rhetoric to try to keep their argument going.
I wonder if they'd still be wanting and "demanding" another referendum if the question was May's Deal v No Deal ?
Oggy has consistently said that referenda are not democratic but he then says that he wants another referendum to decide over Brexit - you couldn't make it up could you ?
What happens if Leave was to win again ? Do we go into yet more interminable whining, whinging, crying, bleating, and duplicitous, scheming M.P's trying to overturn the "Will of the People" ?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 25, 2019 9:18:37 GMT
Historically the Scots and the French have always got along. A mutual dislike of the country in between might help. Also, campaigning for an independent Scotland might seem less nationalistic and populist if it came with the policy of separate EU membership. Not really. The Auld Alliance was in place in varying forms for just over 250 years - and was something of a one sided deal. If England attacked France, Scotland had to send soldiers while if England attacked Scotland the French were obliged to do... nothing. And this is something that some nationalists up here look back to as a golden time. But perception is everything. Of course, some might argue the Auld Alliance was in reality a precursor to modern day EU institutions in so far as unequal distribution of benfits and contributions are concerned. Partick, I agree with you that perception is everything, as a generality ( which I realise is impossible) do you get the impression that the Scots and French are/ could be if required united simply because of their suspicion/ dislike of the English?...or is that just a bit of a myth.
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Post by thevoid on Mar 25, 2019 9:27:18 GMT
Strange isn't it that the only people pushing for the "Put it to the people", "People's Vote", "Second Referendum", call it what you will, are those that LOST the 2016 "Once in a Lifetime" Referendum and just won't/can't accept the result. They're still whinging and bleating like cry babies nearly three years later. All this "you don't know what you voted for" crap is just another of their endless rhetoric to try to keep their argument going. I wonder if they'd still be wanting and "demanding" another referendum if the question was May's Deal v No Deal ? Oggy has consistently said that referenda are not democratic but he then says that he wants another referendum to decide over Brexit - you couldn't make it up could you ? What happens if Leave was to win again ? Do we go into yet more interminable whining, whinging, crying, bleating, and duplicitous, scheming M.P's trying to overturn the "Will of the People" ? They'll want 'best of 7', like the World Series.
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Post by thevoid on Mar 25, 2019 9:31:28 GMT
Can someone please tell me why parliament gets to choose the type of Brexit they want, but we don't? So you are a supporter of a “people’s vote” then? We already had one in 2016.
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Post by thevoid on Mar 25, 2019 9:33:17 GMT
Yes, I'm an expat who frequently returns. And language is metaphorical. So when you say 'this country' and 'our Government' you don't actually mean the one you choose to live in then? And how do you feel denying other people the right to the freedom of movement that immigrants like you have enjoyed/are currently enjoying? Bit hypocritical isn't it? Perhaps he's in employment and hasn't moved abroad to claim welfare?
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Post by thevoid on Mar 25, 2019 9:34:05 GMT
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Post by thevoid on Mar 25, 2019 9:37:01 GMT
Scotland apparently if you listen to wee jimmy krankee want independence from the UK even though they voted in a democratic referendum not to, note the word democratic I see she is now whinging for another referendum what a surprise another sore loser there seem to be a lot of them about. oh well never mind the rest of us will have to get on with what the majority voted for life's a bitch. Yes. Because the majority of Scotland still want to be part of the EU. Brexit is not only taking us out of EU. It could possibly break up the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as well. Bonus. Ireland should be united and as for Scotland, the Barnett Formula could have a thread of it's own.
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Post by yeokel on Mar 25, 2019 9:37:51 GMT
So you are a supporter of a “people’s vote” then? We already one in 2016. Yes, I know. I was simply checking with Tricky as that seemed to be a shift from his usual position. He's since cleared it up though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 9:57:51 GMT
Quite right. If they feel so strongly about Brexit they should have got off their backsides on 23rd June 2016 and voted to Remain in the "Once in a Lifetime" referendum ! I can think of 17.4 million people who had enough conviction and determination to express their wishes democratically. As it is.........irrespective of the number of signatures (genuine or otherwise) on this petition the Remain cry babies will probably still win due to the shysters in Parliament being determined to overturn the result !
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Mar 25, 2019 9:58:35 GMT
What happens if Leave was to win again ? Well then you have to have another vote for what kind of 'Leave' you want. The options would be something like... 1) May's Deal. 2) No Deal. 3) Remain. Should 'No Deal' win we then have to vote on what kind of 'No Deal' we want. The options would be something like... 1) A 'hard' No Deal. 2) A 'soft' No Deal. 3) Remain. Should 'hard' win we then have to vote on whether we want a leave with a hard no deal or remain. So the options would be... 1) A 'hard' No Deal Leave. 2) Remain. Should a hard no deal leave win we then have to have one final, final, final vote. The options would be... 1) Remain. 2) Remain. The result of this final vote would then be implemented without delay & we'd never, ever have to vote on it again. It's called democracy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 10:00:45 GMT
What happens if Leave was to win again ? Well then you have to have another vote for what kind of 'Leave' you want. The options would be something like... 1) May's Deal. 2) No Deal. 3) Remain. Should 'No Deal' win we then have to vote on what kind of 'No Deal' we want. The options would be something like... 1) A 'hard' No Deal. 2) a 'soft' No Deal. 3) Remain. Should 'hard' win we then have to vote on whether we want a leave with a hard no deal or remain. So the options would be... 1) A 'hard' No Deal Leave. 2) Remain. Should a hard no deal leave win we then have to have one final, final, final vote. The opions would be... 1) Remain. 2) Remain. The result of this final vote would then be implemented without delay & we'd never, ever have to vote on it again. It's called democracy. Well sketched out, and probably, sadly, very accurate. It's an absolute farce isn't it !
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Post by thevoid on Mar 25, 2019 10:21:34 GMT
Well then you have to have another vote for what kind of 'Leave' you want. The options would be something like... 1) May's Deal. 2) No Deal. 3) Remain. Should 'No Deal' win we then have to vote on what kind of 'No Deal' we want. The options would be something like... 1) A 'hard' No Deal. 2) a 'soft' No Deal. 3) Remain. Should 'hard' win we then have to vote on whether we want a leave with a hard no deal or remain. So the options would be... 1) A 'hard' No Deal Leave. 2) Remain. Should a hard no deal leave win we then have to have one final, final, final vote. The opions would be... 1) Remain. 2) Remain. The result of this final vote would then be implemented without delay & we'd never, ever have to vote on it again. It's called democracy. Well sketched out, and probably, sadly, very accurate. It's an absolute farce isn't it ! Deal, No Deal- I wonder if we'll get a Banker's Offer?
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Post by Northy on Mar 25, 2019 10:26:11 GMT
You can at least half that When you only count people who live in this country and are eligible to vote As guess what people living abroad people under eighteen and foreign nationals living in this country they don’t count Come back When you get past four million actual voters and people signing remoamer mcremoanface, putin, Barnier, junker etc.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Mar 25, 2019 10:44:22 GMT
Forget Brexit Uri Geller is going to stop it with his mind!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 25, 2019 10:57:47 GMT
What Brexit has exposed , as someone has previously pointed out , is that a certain group of people see themselves as the natural and rightful decision makers. It's a job that they like , for which they get well paid and other non financial benefits. Public opinion is an inconvenience.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 25, 2019 11:07:14 GMT
So only 5 days ago French Custons officials were striking because they weren't ready for No Deal. French Customs not ready for No Deal - Guardian
This morning the EU have declared all preparations are finished. What's that you say? How have they solved the hard border in Northern Ireland? Seems tech exists after all.
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Post by Absolution on Mar 25, 2019 11:07:36 GMT
Forget Brexit Uri Geller is going to stop it with his mind! 5 million arseholes being clenched will probably have the same effect.
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 25, 2019 11:25:58 GMT
The EU funding is spent on a wide variety of items but the main items are the CAP and regional & social funding to the poorer regions of the EU. The regional and social money that is "returned" to the UK largely goes to England, but on an expenditure per head of population England receives considerably less than the other UK counties: Wales: c.140 Euro, NI: c. 55 Euro, Scotland: c.45 Euro, and England: c.25 Euro. (based on EU planned expenditure 2014-20: researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7847/CBP-7847.pdf ) Naturally the Scots are concerned that if we leave the EU they will not be treated as well by a UK government in London. Note: The UK, Germany, and Netherlands are the major net financial contributors to the EU; almost every other country benefits financially. France gets out what it puts in. Germany and Netherlands enjoy a huge balance of trade benefit with the UK, £20 billion and £8 billion respectively. The UK not only is major funder of the EU, it also has a major trading deficit which is getting worse. Meanwhile our trade balance with the rest of the world is positive and increasing, hence in the future we will be much better outside the EU. www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/08/why-the-uk-trade-deficit-with-the-eu-is-woeful-and-wideningMany countries benefit from being in the EU, in fact you could argue all do except the UK. Someone has to pay for everyone else's benefit. A significant proportion of our GDP is earned by selling to the EU, which some argue is a benefit, but virtually all we sell the EU need and will continue to buy. (They wouldn't buy off us by choice - except maybe whisky!) The only sector where we could lose business is financial but the growth in the financial sector in the rest of the world is going to be massive as their living standards rise, whereas there will be minimal growth in the living standards of Europe except in the small east EU countries. The jocks and welsh and ni would argue that after Brexit their funding would increase. And including England it probably would I think they would. The regions can always argue that they are short changed by central government and there is some justification for that. Projects like Crossrail/Elizabeth Line (£15b), HS2 (£56b), and regeneration of Crawley mean the southeast does very well out of government projects.
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Post by followyoudown on Mar 25, 2019 11:30:52 GMT
So only 5 days ago French Custons officials were striking because they weren't ready for No Deal. French Customs not ready for No Deal - Guardian
This morning the EU have declared all preparations are finished. What's that you say? How have they solved the hard border in Northern Ireland? Seems tech exists after all. Indeed it kind of looks like something we have suggested that they said was not possible until it is possible well fcuk them and little Leo.
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 25, 2019 11:33:12 GMT
So only 5 days ago French Custons officials were striking because they weren't ready for No Deal. French Customs not ready for No Deal - Guardian
This morning the EU have declared all preparations are finished. What's that you say? How have they solved the hard border in Northern Ireland? Seems tech exists after all. I have said repeatedly that if we were to leave without a deal, it will be remarkable how quickly problems will be resolved or just glossed over to ensure the flow of goods from Europe into the UK. The EU is not going to let obstacles stand in the way of their £70 billion pa trade benefit with us. They will of course find every excuse they can why we can't sell to them. (I worked for a French company for 7 years and we were expected to "buy French". It would not be a good career move to do otherwise.)
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Post by Clayton Wood on Mar 25, 2019 11:53:06 GMT
European Commission spokesman Margaritis Schinas says: "Freedom of expression is a fundamental right in the European Union.
"We saw, indeed, the very telling images of the march that do not warrant any additional comment from our side.
"We take note of this march but our only interlocutor is the UK government."
Addressing a petition, signed by more than 5.4 million people, which calls for Brexit to be cancelled, Schinas says: "For as long as the UK Government does not tell us otherwise, we are working on the presumption that the UK will leave the EU.
"We continue to work with HM government and continue to work to be able to contribute towards an orderly withdrawal."
He adds that the EU is prepared for "all options, including the worst".
EU responses to march and petition.
(74.2m now signed)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 12:21:58 GMT
European Commission spokesman Margaritis Schinas says: "Freedom of expression is a fundamental right in the European Union.
"We saw, indeed, the very telling images of the march that do not warrant any additional comment from our side.
"We take note of this march but our only interlocutor is the UK government."
Addressing a petition, signed by more than 5.4 million people, which calls for Brexit to be cancelled, Schinas says: "For as long as the UK Government does not tell us otherwise, we are working on the presumption that the UK will leave the EU.
"We continue to work with HM government and continue to work to be able to contribute towards an orderly withdrawal."
He adds that the EU is prepared for "all options, including the worst".
EU responses to march and petition. (74.2m now signed) Schinas must have conveniently forgotten the recent protests in France and the independance protest in Catalunya and the violent responses from the French and Spanish governments.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 25, 2019 12:29:35 GMT
So only 5 days ago French Custons officials were striking because they weren't ready for No Deal. French Customs not ready for No Deal - Guardian
This morning the EU have declared all preparations are finished. What's that you say? How have they solved the hard border in Northern Ireland? Seems tech exists after all. Besides which Roger... what if it isn't 100% ready from day one? We'd have to improve it overtime. Life is like that. Of course we( UK and EU) should have been preparing in the three years since BREXIT. We could have had pilots , tests, trial runs. That's a complete ( deliberate) failure of Politicians to do their job. If the ( non existent) Irish border is a problem then we would have to live with it and improve things over time. Some people don't like the analogy but for me it holds true.....when we declared war on Germany we were entering the unknown, no knowledge of the outcome, very little of a plan... but we had to do the right thing. To achieve change there has to be distortion..... but it could be managed if there is a will.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Mar 25, 2019 12:36:31 GMT
And how is the no deal petition doing? Should we also halve the signatories on that? It's hilarious that you fools expect us genuine leave voters to give a flying fuck about 5 million online votes of which as mentioned I'd love to know how many votes would genuinely count at the polls yet all along you've totally shit on, put down, said we were wrong and generally ignored the democratic vote of over 17 million genuine voters. Yet it's us that should be taking note of your irrelevant far to late to give a shit poll. You couldn't make it up. On here there are many who claim that no deal is the preferred option of the majority. In parallel to the revoke article 50 petition there is one calling for no deal. Rather than whine about the 5million signatures why don't those no deal supporters go and sign their petition and shit on the remoaners, or is the current support for no deal really only really a very small minority?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 13:40:21 GMT
What Brexit has exposed , as someone has previously pointed out , is that a certain group of people see themselves as the natural and rightful decision makers. It's a job that they like , for which they get well paid and other non financial benefits. Public opinion is an inconvenience. I actually agree, the arrogance of some of the remainers in thinking they know best is laughable. The protest at the weekend was like a trip to your local Booth's supermarket, people who can afford to be ideological whilst others want to get on with tackling the real issues in society being ignored. I'm a massive Europhile and remainer, but I genuinely don't see an appetite for people changing their mind when I'm out and about. I argue this with my missus all the time (also a remainer), she works at a University where almost everyone she speaks to voted remain and backs a peoples vote. On my travels with work to Doncaster and Middlesbrough and Dagenham and Coventry and other Gordforsaken places throughout the land as I keep telling her people aren't changing their minds, if anything they're digging their heels in and saying "lets just go now" She's in a bubble, it's not the reality of the situation. I think no deal would be a disaster personally and we need to avoid it like the plague, but 100% a peoples vote is not the answer. We need to exit Europe as is the will of the people, end of......
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Post by Absolution on Mar 25, 2019 13:58:11 GMT
What Brexit has exposed , as someone has previously pointed out , is that a certain group of people see themselves as the natural and rightful decision makers. It's a job that they like , for which they get well paid and other non financial benefits. Public opinion is an inconvenience. I actually agree, the arrogance of some of the remainers in thinking they know best is laughable. The protest at the weekend was like a trip to your local Booth's supermarket, people who can afford to be ideological whilst others want to get on with tackling the real issues in society being ignored. I'm a massive Europhile and remainer, but I genuinely don't see an appetite for people changing their mind when I'm out and about. I argue this with my missus all the time (also a remainer), she works at a University where almost everyone she speaks to voted remain and backs a peoples vote. On my travels with work to Doncaster and Middlesbrough and Dagenham and Coventry and other Gordforsaken places throughout the land as I keep telling her people aren't changing their minds, if anything they're digging their heels in and saying "lets just go know" She's in a bubble, it's not the reality of the situation. I think no deal would be a disaster personally and we need to avoid it like the plague, but 100% a peoples vote is not the answer. We need to exit Europe as is the will of the people, end of...... I think there's possibly now an element of shy-Brexiter at play now, particularly in predominently young places like universities. You'd have to be bloody strong-willed or deliberately provocative to go against the flow there. I'm not suggesting that's the only story in town, and there may now be many people who've changed their position from leave to remain, but I suspect the polls may not be telling the complete truth. Either way, the most pressing issue for successive governments from here will probably be to heal the ongoing scars because if it's 'no deal' or 'revoke/second referendum' there's going to be an almighty stench around the UK for a long, long time. May's deal, which no one seems to want looks to me to be the least damaging way out.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 25, 2019 14:02:29 GMT
It's hilarious that you fools expect us genuine leave voters to give a flying fuck about 5 million online votes of which as mentioned I'd love to know how many votes would genuinely count at the polls yet all along you've totally shit on, put down, said we were wrong and generally ignored the democratic vote of over 17 million genuine voters. Yet it's us that should be taking note of your irrelevant far to late to give a shit poll. You couldn't make it up. On here there are many who claim that no deal is the preferred option of the majority. In parallel to the revoke article 50 petition there is one calling for no deal. Rather than whine about the 5million signatures why don't those no deal supporters go and sign their petition and shit on the remoaners, or is the current support for no deal really only really a very small minority? As has been made clear many times in discussions with ************** having a deal is an entirely separate and different issue than being a member of the EU organisation. Being a member of the EU was made absolutely clear prior to the Referendum. The emphasis on a deal and the is simply a way of trying to divert people from the real issue created by those who can't accept the decision. You know, some of those that lost the Referendum. Nigel Lawson has a go at explaining being in or out of the EU, but it's a bit too simple for some to grasp.
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