|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 11, 2019 15:49:37 GMT
I agree with you Oggy. We should have had a Leaver completely in charge of the negotiations ( not May).... Perhaps even a cross party/ non political group of Leavers' managing the process, should have prepared from day one to actually Leave properly ( no SM, no CU, No ECJ as was promised....or become an independent sovereign country) AND alongside that arranged a" deal" if the EU and UK could come to a mutually agreeable arrangement. Apparently we were offered a Free Trade deal early doors. The problem has been that many people , including May in my opinion don't want to Leave and have done everything to undermine democracy and scupper any deal. Yes the politicians of all parties have failed the people.....I think that they are do used to the diminishing of their role , now as regional administrators of the EU that they have cosily forgotten to be UK politicians Ok, what’s going on...we agree on quite a lot! MPs are in a difficult position. They have been told to “leave the EU” without any instructions how or what to aim for in doing so and yet we all know (and the government studies have shown) we will all be poorer for it and it will damage people doing so. Is an MPs job in a parliamentary democracy to do what they think is right and be held to account at the ballot box, or, to do what the country as a whole instructed, even though their constituents may have voted remain and/or they believe it will harm the nation and their constituents. Whatever anyone says, we are where we are. Back May’s deal, subject to a referendum on it v remain. I think that would cause least harm to the people of this country (it rules out no deal) and gives the people a vote on remain or leave but with a specific and tangible leave vote. What all but fundamental extremists agree on is that no deal would be disastrous and so should stop being used as a weapon by May. "fundamental extremists" is your it's extreme now to believe in democracy if it contradicts mind controlling" no alternative" system. I believe and I am sure that " not being in the EU" is simply what most people voted for. No need for any weapons at all..... but unfortunately the EU will do anything to prevent what they see as a threat to their Political project.... irrespective of the consequences or beliefs of others ( not a bad money earner for the bureacrats either)
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Feb 11, 2019 15:52:24 GMT
Are you suggesting 17.4m are far right/looney left? He's suggesting what all Remoaners suggest - anything that means Remoaners should be listened to & Remain should be the result. Just look at the way he mocks the DUP & is disgusted by them for backing Leave when the voting areas were in favour of Remain, yet only a sentence earlier he was saying how MPs know best & should ignore what people voted for because that time it was the MPs who were for Remain & the constituencies had voted overwhelmingly to Leave. The word your looking for is hypocrite
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Feb 11, 2019 16:06:12 GMT
The only reason this government has dithered is totally down to remainers not accepting the vote and not shutting the fuck up about it Remainers have constantly undermined this country’s negotiating position And I count may as a remainer Spoken like a true believer in democracy! I forgot, as I voted remain, I never get a vote or say again about what happens to my life, this country, or my children’s future! The referendum was completely unthought out. No one knew what “leave” meant or how it could be implemented and all main protagonists of leave ran the second they were asked for some specifics or details of what to do next. That’s why we are at an empasse in Parliament. The EU have been clear in their position from the outset and we are still forming ours, despite serving notice to leave. To do so without even a clue of what we want and how to get there is negligence, pure and simple. We are at a impasse in parliament due to MPs not enacting there manifesto pledge to leave the Eu Remain MPs have made every attempt to delay brexit by trying to get another referendum which obviously you’re against as you don’t like referendums 17.4 million people knew what they wanted they wanted to leave the Eu And as I reside in an area that voted 68% leave I haven’t met a leave voter yet that wants a customs union or a single market 400 gutless MPs are on notice no meaning full brexit and 17 .4 million people will hold them to account
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Feb 11, 2019 16:39:40 GMT
Spoken like a true believer in democracy! I forgot, as I voted remain, I never get a vote or say again about what happens to my life, this country, or my children’s future! The referendum was completely unthought out. No one knew what “leave” meant or how it could be implemented and all main protagonists of leave ran the second they were asked for some specifics or details of what to do next. That’s why we are at an empasse in Parliament. The EU have been clear in their position from the outset and we are still forming ours, despite serving notice to leave. To do so without even a clue of what we want and how to get there is negligence, pure and simple. We are at a impasse in parliament due to MPs not enacting there manifesto pledge to leave the Eu Remain MPs have made every attempt to delay brexit by trying to get another referendum which obviously you’re against as you don’t like referendums 17.4 million people knew what they wanted they wanted to leave the Eu And as I reside in an area that voted 68% leave I haven’t met a leave voter yet that wants a customs union or a single market 400 gutless MPs are on notice no meaning full brexit and 17 .4 million people will hold them to account So can you explain what you voted for in terms of replacing the EU maintenance Regulation, the Brussels 2 Regulations on jurisdiction and the reciprocal enforcement agreements. I am literally on my way to a talk by a Barrister on where we are left with this in my area of work and I would be interested to know what all you leave voters (who knew what you voted for) had to say about these types of issues.
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Feb 11, 2019 16:49:41 GMT
We are at a impasse in parliament due to MPs not enacting there manifesto pledge to leave the Eu Remain MPs have made every attempt to delay brexit by trying to get another referendum which obviously you’re against as you don’t like referendums 17.4 million people knew what they wanted they wanted to leave the Eu And as I reside in an area that voted 68% leave I haven’t met a leave voter yet that wants a customs union or a single market 400 gutless MPs are on notice no meaning full brexit and 17 .4 million people will hold them to account So can you explain what you voted for in terms of replacing the EU maintenance Regulation, the Brussels 2 Regulations on jurisdiction and the reciprocal enforcement agreements. I am literally on my way to a talk by a Barrister on where we are left with this in my area of work and I would be interested to know what all you leave voters (who knew what you voted for) had to say about these types of issues. I’m not to up on jurisdiction and reciprocal enforcement arrangements I took woodwork at school instead What did I vote for I voted for British law to be paramount I voted to leave European courts of justice I voted to lave the European arrest warrant British law should be made in this country by this country and the only level of appeal should be this country
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 11, 2019 17:01:50 GMT
We are at a impasse in parliament due to MPs not enacting there manifesto pledge to leave the Eu Remain MPs have made every attempt to delay brexit by trying to get another referendum which obviously you’re against as you don’t like referendums 17.4 million people knew what they wanted they wanted to leave the Eu And as I reside in an area that voted 68% leave I haven’t met a leave voter yet that wants a customs union or a single market 400 gutless MPs are on notice no meaning full brexit and 17 .4 million people will hold them to account So can you explain what you voted for in terms of replacing the EU maintenance Regulation, the Brussels 2 Regulations on jurisdiction and the reciprocal enforcement agreements. I am literally on my way to a talk by a Barrister on where we are left with this in my area of work and I would be interested to know what all you leave voters (who knew what you voted for) had to say about these types of issues. Oggy you are the expert in this area and Zi don't want to get into deals or the minutea of agreements but as an outsider I would say this; I can see no reason that we cannot adopt the same agreement s ( of both parties want to genuinely act in good faith and do the best for their citizens....and not weaponise it,), a type of bilateral agreement between the EU and the UK as a third country. Failing that we would have to negotiate ( that's what negotiations are about) an arrangement.... presumably the EU has to make decisions/ have arrangements with other third countries EG USA or Mexico when there are custody/ family disputed......In many ways the intransigence shows the degree that we have been emeshed as a single country....I have said many times that it will take us 29 years to disentangle. I would add.... a friend of my wife's, living in Portugal but married to a Spaniard has been undergoing a custody battle for at least three years, still not resolved. High level solicitors/ Barristers involved and even though eventually custody has been awarded to my wife's friend the son is still with the father in Spain... it's been a disgraceful nightmare. Also a friend of mine, a poster on here has got an incredible story about trying to sell his property in Portugal..... not very smooth.... I'll try to get him to tell the story on here. Finally, of course there will be disruption, what did you expect?
|
|
|
Post by foghornsgleghorn on Feb 11, 2019 17:09:49 GMT
Yes, Hilary Benn was not referring in his Tweet to WTO as our final home, everyone knows what that looks liks, rather the new trading arrangements with the EU which the good Doctor Fox and other bexiteers are gagging to go out and agree once free to do so. Hilary Benn is at odds with his own father (RIP Tony) on the EU issue and it's forerunner. Apart from that he supports a customs union with the EU. Which would stymie us on trade deals with the rest of the big wide world. Where 90% of future economic growth is estimated. Ah the promised land of future trade deals...….
|
|
|
Post by harryburrows on Feb 11, 2019 18:07:52 GMT
We are at a impasse in parliament due to MPs not enacting there manifesto pledge to leave the Eu Remain MPs have made every attempt to delay brexit by trying to get another referendum which obviously you’re against as you don’t like referendums 17.4 million people knew what they wanted they wanted to leave the Eu And as I reside in an area that voted 68% leave I haven’t met a leave voter yet that wants a customs union or a single market 400 gutless MPs are on notice no meaning full brexit and 17 .4 million people will hold them to account So can you explain what you voted for in terms of replacing the EU maintenance Regulation, the Brussels 2 Regulations on jurisdiction and the reciprocal enforcement agreements. I am literally on my way to a talk by a Barrister on where we are left with this in my area of work and I would be interested to know what all you leave voters (who knew what you voted for) had to say about these types of issues. You are just another typical remoaner talking down to the people who voted to leave . Of course nobody understands the technical details of brexit . That's down to public servants to earn their substantial salaries and make it happen .
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Feb 11, 2019 18:17:37 GMT
So can you explain what you voted for in terms of replacing the EU maintenance Regulation, the Brussels 2 Regulations on jurisdiction and the reciprocal enforcement agreements. I am literally on my way to a talk by a Barrister on where we are left with this in my area of work and I would be interested to know what all you leave voters (who knew what you voted for) had to say about these types of issues. You are just another typical remoaner talking down to the people who voted to leave . Of course nobody understands the technical details of brexit . That's down to public servants to earn their substantial salaries and make it happen . Wouldn’t waste your breath He made a piss poor atempt to try to belittle me All it does is show him up as the self centred me me me prick he is The law slightly below estate agents a touch above politicians
|
|
|
Post by Clayton Wood on Feb 11, 2019 18:30:12 GMT
We are at a impasse in parliament due to MPs not enacting there manifesto pledge to leave the Eu Remain MPs have made every attempt to delay brexit by trying to get another referendum which obviously you’re against as you don’t like referendums 17.4 million people knew what they wanted they wanted to leave the Eu And as I reside in an area that voted 68% leave I haven’t met a leave voter yet that wants a customs union or a single market 400 gutless MPs are on notice no meaning full brexit and 17 .4 million people will hold them to account So can you explain what you voted for in terms of replacing the EU maintenance Regulation, the Brussels 2 Regulations on jurisdiction and the reciprocal enforcement agreements. I am literally on my way to a talk by a Barrister on where we are left with this in my area of work and I would be interested to know what all you leave voters (who knew what you voted for) had to say about these types of issues. Can you explain the changes that came in last month on the treatment of VAT on ebooks? As you voted for it 2 years ago you will have been clued up on it. I'm thinking some on here would benefit from your wisdom. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 11, 2019 18:44:11 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Timmypotter on Feb 11, 2019 19:09:57 GMT
Hilary Benn is at odds with his own father (RIP Tony) on the EU issue and it's forerunner. Apart from that he supports a customs union with the EU. Which would stymie us on trade deals with the rest of the big wide world. Where 90% of future economic growth is estimated. It's okay to disagree with your father, if we didn't we'd still be imprisoning the mentally ill and stringing gay people up from lamp posts ! On the trade point we can still do 2 things at once, have tariff free trade with our closest neighbours and trade with the rest of the world. I understand that what we can't do is cut our own deals. Would we really do better than the EU on new deals? I've not seen anything to make me think we would, although I'm sure we'd hire lots of new civil servants and lawyers in order to try. Another point on that if you are nervous about immigration, people always follow business, have done since the year dot. Trade more with the BRIC countries rather than Europe and we have more people here from Brazil, Russia, India and China, not a problem for me but lots of folks don't much like foreigners as we saw when Farrage appeared in front of that poster with a long line of rather swarthy looking individuals ! I don't like the sound of your dad.
|
|
|
Post by Timmypotter on Feb 11, 2019 19:12:16 GMT
We are at a impasse in parliament due to MPs not enacting there manifesto pledge to leave the Eu Remain MPs have made every attempt to delay brexit by trying to get another referendum which obviously you’re against as you don’t like referendums 17.4 million people knew what they wanted they wanted to leave the Eu And as I reside in an area that voted 68% leave I haven’t met a leave voter yet that wants a customs union or a single market 400 gutless MPs are on notice no meaning full brexit and 17 .4 million people will hold them to account So can you explain what you voted for in terms of replacing the EU maintenance Regulation, the Brussels 2 Regulations on jurisdiction and the reciprocal enforcement agreements. I am literally on my way to a talk by a Barrister on where we are left with this in my area of work and I would be interested to know what all you leave voters (who knew what you voted for) had to say about these types of issues. Literally.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 11, 2019 19:56:10 GMT
|
|
|
Post by felonious on Feb 11, 2019 20:03:46 GMT
So can you explain what you voted for in terms of replacing the EU maintenance Regulation, the Brussels 2 Regulations on jurisdiction and the reciprocal enforcement agreements. I am literally on my way to a talk by a Barrister on where we are left with this in my area of work and I would be interested to know what all you leave voters (who knew what you voted for) had to say about these types of issues. Literally. EU beaurocracy has literally been a Godsend to lawyers. Brexit is literally a Godsend to lawyers. It's a talk on literally how to make even more money out of EU surely?
|
|
|
Post by raythesailor on Feb 11, 2019 22:11:33 GMT
Let’s stop all this arguing about pedantic interpretations about this and that.
We have been shafted by unellecticted power brokers who have been negotiating with inept politicians who do not have a clue about anything, and assumed we would meekly accept what ever gets put before us.
I have moved from a possible re mainer to a not so sure, and now STUFF EM LETS GET OUT OF HERE.
Watch the euro series on BBC 2 on I Player to give you an idea what is going on.
ps don’t believe everything you see on BBC.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 11, 2019 22:22:51 GMT
There is a slight rumour that she is talking about a general election....... seems a bit contradictory compared to what she has been saying about getting her deal through.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 23:05:24 GMT
Let’s stop all this arguing about pedantic interpretations about this and that. We have been shafted by unellecticted power brokers who have been negotiating with inept politicians who do not have a clue about anything, and assumed we would meekly accept what ever gets put before us. I have moved from a possible re mainer to a not so sure, and now STUFF EM LETS GET OUT OF HERE. Watch the euro series on BBC 2 on I Player to give you an idea what is going on. ps don’t believe everything you see on BBC. The Euro series has been really interesting and insightful - it really shows our EU "masters" in their true light. I was surprised by the difference of opinion, and apparent dislike that Tusk has for Juncker. This week's episode about the immigrant crisis showed how they can bend/break the rules when it suits them. Merkel and Juncker really do have a hell of a lot to answer for don't they ! They've effectively destroyed Europe. The sooner we leave this bunch of shysters the better !
|
|
boru
Academy Starlet
Posts: 213
|
Post by boru on Feb 11, 2019 23:07:02 GMT
We shouldn't be mixing our proven form of elective democracy established over centuries with random referenda. The result is we have an elected parliament charged with implementing a strategy they mostly believe to be nuts with the exception of the far right of the Tory party, a few on the hard Corbyn left and the DUP. On the DUP you've got to love the way they speak as though they are the voice of Northern Ireland when in fact the 6 counties voted remain. The DUP are supporting the UK of which they are a member. The bigots of the dup are supporting themselves as always and ignoring their voters as usual.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 23:11:56 GMT
The DUP are supporting the UK of which they are a member. The bigots of the dup are supporting themselves as always and ignoring their voters as usual. Just like many MP's in the House of Conmen are doing
|
|
|
Post by LL Cool Dave on Feb 12, 2019 7:19:57 GMT
Watch the euro series on BBC 2 on I Player to give you an idea what is going on. ps don’t believe everything you see on BBC. Make your mind up.
|
|
|
Post by LL Cool Dave on Feb 12, 2019 7:28:53 GMT
There is a slight rumour that she is talking about a general election....... seems a bit contradictory compared to what she has been saying about getting her deal through. So she can extend article 50?
|
|
|
Post by Northy on Feb 12, 2019 7:33:09 GMT
Let’s stop all this arguing about pedantic interpretations about this and that. We have been shafted by unellecticted power brokers who have been negotiating with inept politicians who do not have a clue about anything, and assumed we would meekly accept what ever gets put before us. I have moved from a possible re mainer to a not so sure, and now STUFF EM LETS GET OUT OF HERE. Watch the euro series on BBC 2 on I Player to give you an idea what is going on. ps don’t believe everything you see on BBC. The Euro series has been really interesting and insightful - it really shows our EU "masters" in their true light. I was surprised by the difference of opinion, and apparent dislike that Tusk has for Juncker. This week's episode about the immigrant crisis showed how they can bend/break the rules when it suits them. The sooner we leave this bunch of shysters the better ! Have it recorded, yet to watch it, will try at the weekend when back home.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 7:51:09 GMT
The Euro series has been really interesting and insightful - it really shows our EU "masters" in their true light. I was surprised by the difference of opinion, and apparent dislike that Tusk has for Juncker. This week's episode about the immigrant crisis showed how they can bend/break the rules when it suits them. The sooner we leave this bunch of shysters the better ! Have it recorded, yet to watch it, will try at the weekend when back home. It's really interesting, just a shame it was only a three part series.
|
|
|
Post by felonious on Feb 12, 2019 7:51:10 GMT
Let’s stop all this arguing about pedantic interpretations about this and that. We have been shafted by unellecticted power brokers who have been negotiating with inept politicians who do not have a clue about anything, and assumed we would meekly accept what ever gets put before us. I have moved from a possible re mainer to a not so sure, and now STUFF EM LETS GET OUT OF HERE. Watch the euro series on BBC 2 on I Player to give you an idea what is going on.
ps don’t believe everything you see on BBC. I've caught bits of it Ray. It hardly paints the EU in a good light does it? If you were able to vote on the bastards in charge they'd be gone in a shot, meanwhile the inhabitants of Europe suffer these fools in charge of their destination.
|
|
|
Post by rogerjonesisgod on Feb 12, 2019 9:52:57 GMT
Have it recorded, yet to watch it, will try at the weekend when back home. It's really interesting, just a shame it was only a three part series. It's a 45 year series.
|
|
|
Post by sorethumbs on Feb 12, 2019 10:22:08 GMT
There is a slight rumour that she is talking about a general election....... seems a bit contradictory compared to what she has been saying about getting her deal through. So she can extend article 50? More like a bribe to get Labour to vote for the WA if true
|
|
|
Post by rogerjonesisgod on Feb 12, 2019 10:25:21 GMT
There is a slight rumour that she is talking about a general election....... seems a bit contradictory compared to what she has been saying about getting her deal through. Typical May duplicity. Hold an election with the EU's WA in the manifesto. If she wins then the noise from remain Tory MP's saying this gives Parliament the mandate for the deal will be deafening whilst carefully forgetting they ignored the last manifesto which had "No Deal is better than a bad deal" written into it. If she loses, then it's all someone else's problem. One of the points with this is that she's already said she wouldn't lead the Cons into the next election so you would think with the next Brexit step unresolved they would surely have to install a Brexiteer, who then may or may not include the existing WA in the manifesto. A little risky and something the EU wouldn't want on the table so in turn might not allow for an extension unless she commits to being the Con leader along with the WA under her arm. If the EU don't get involved she could stick to her word and step down leaving the WA as a manifesto 'option' for the next guy. Going out with a whimper. Alternatively she might feel that a GE could benefit her career legacy if she did lead the party clutching the WA. She gets the green light from the EU for the extension and the result either backs her or she's lost in a democratic vote. A mini referendum on the WA if you like. She goes out saying she did her best and battled on to the end. After all she did only promise not to lead the Cons into the next election.......... then added later....... the next election in 2022.
|
|
|
Post by yeokel on Feb 12, 2019 10:53:08 GMT
There is a slight rumour that she is talking about a general election....... seems a bit contradictory compared to what she has been saying about getting her deal through. Typical May duplicity. Hold an election with the EU's WA in the manifesto. If she wins then the noise from remain Tory MP's saying this gives Parliament the mandate for the deal will be deafening whilst carefully forgetting they ignored the last manifesto which had "No Deal is better than a bad deal" written into it. If she loses, then it's all someone else's problem. One of the points with this is that she's already said she wouldn't lead the Cons into the next election so you would think with the next Brexit step unresolved they would surely have to install a Brexiteer, who then may or may not include the existing WA in the manifesto. A little risky and something the EU wouldn't want on the table so in turn might not allow for an extension unless she commits to being the Con leader along with the WA under her arm. If the EU don't get involved she could stick to her word and step down leaving the WA as a manifesto 'option' for the next guy. Going out with a whimper. Alternatively she might feel that a GE could benefit her career legacy if she did lead the party clutching the WA. She gets the green light from the EU for the extension and the result either backs her or she's lost in a democratic vote. A mini referendum on the WA if you like. She goes out saying she did her best and battled on to the end. After all she did only promise not to lead the Cons into the next election.......... then added later....... the next election in 2022. I don’t see this happening at all. “Going out with a whimper” is certainly not her style no matter how much of the country would like her to do just that and, as the previous election backfired on her so spectacularly, I don’t think that even May would take that risk again. But, WTFDIK?
|
|
|
Post by rogerjonesisgod on Feb 12, 2019 11:09:58 GMT
Typical May duplicity. Hold an election with the EU's WA in the manifesto. If she wins then the noise from remain Tory MP's saying this gives Parliament the mandate for the deal will be deafening whilst carefully forgetting they ignored the last manifesto which had "No Deal is better than a bad deal" written into it. If she loses, then it's all someone else's problem. One of the points with this is that she's already said she wouldn't lead the Cons into the next election so you would think with the next Brexit step unresolved they would surely have to install a Brexiteer, who then may or may not include the existing WA in the manifesto. A little risky and something the EU wouldn't want on the table so in turn might not allow for an extension unless she commits to being the Con leader along with the WA under her arm. If the EU don't get involved she could stick to her word and step down leaving the WA as a manifesto 'option' for the next guy. Going out with a whimper. Alternatively she might feel that a GE could benefit her career legacy if she did lead the party clutching the WA. She gets the green light from the EU for the extension and the result either backs her or she's lost in a democratic vote. A mini referendum on the WA if you like. She goes out saying she did her best and battled on to the end. After all she did only promise not to lead the Cons into the next election.......... then added later....... the next election in 2022. I don’t see this happening at all. “Going out with a whimper” is certainly not her style no matter how much of the country would like her to do just that and, as the previous election backfired on her so spectacularly, I don’t think that even May would take that risk again. But, WTFDIK? She's a remainer and seemingly held the last election thinking she would get a comfortable majority to help sideline the Brexiteers. She wanted an uber-soft Brexit and knew a remain HoC would back that. Here's a good read if you've got 10 mins. Her whole career is telling people what they want to hear then pivoting at the last minute. Why A No-Deal Brexit Is Now Theresa May's Fallback Plan To Save Her Party – And Herself - Huff Post
|
|