|
Post by xchpotter on Nov 11, 2018 22:51:08 GMT
Oh great....so Brexit now means another World War. If I knew that was what was going to happen I’d have thought differently FFS.
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 11, 2018 23:35:16 GMT
Oh great....so Brexit now means another World War. If I knew that was what was going to happen I’d have thought differently FFS. That's the main reason I voted for it.
|
|
|
Post by 3putts on Nov 12, 2018 4:26:12 GMT
That may be statistically true, but their are plenty of middle class (and higher) voted out as well. I spent a lifetime as a senior manager in industry, many years working for a French company and for Dutch managers. I was a member of a European committee which I chaired for for 3 years. My step-son now semi-retired was a CEO for an international company based in Singapore. We are both very much opposed to being in the EU which not only ties the hands of our countries economy it has destroyed the economies of Southern Europe. I have changed my view 180 degrees from the 1970s when I was very pro the Common Market. The world has massively changed since the Common Market was established in the 1950s. My father was implacably opposed to it and said "You watch they will come to rule this country, you cannot have economic union without political union". How right he was. The world is much "smaller" with e commerce and Europe will only grow economically very slowly. We need to be trading freely with the rest of the world instead of being tied to an economic union with which our proportion of trade is declining* while our growth of trade with the rest of the world could grow must faster.+ The EU concept belongs to the second half of the 20th century. The future is world economies being drawn closer together. We are no longer a manufacturing country but have a service economy that can service the whole of he world, particularly those economies that are growing rapidly. * fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2dmT3e3J3gIVwpTVCh1jzANZEAAYAyAAEgIyu_D_BwE* www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/08/why-the-uk-trade-deficit-with-the-eu-is-woeful-and-widening+ www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exports-to-non-eu-countries-continue-to-outstrip-eu "90% of global trade will come from outside EU." + www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2015-014997-ASW_EN.html?redirect NB This is an EU document. I agree. The EU is outdated. Staying in the EU is the safe option but is a very short sighted view. Economically the EU will not grow anywhere near as fast as the rest of the world and we will be left behind. I agree mostly with what you say but I still feel it is better to be a part of eu and try to change it within than to be cast aside on our own. I cannot get my head around that we are now free to negotiate our own deals when we will have to compete with larger organisations? e.g. who is going to get a better deal from say japan? our small island or the rest of Europe?? its obvious the more trade you can do the better deal you will get, its like alfs corner shop[corrie] trying to compete with tesco
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Nov 12, 2018 9:41:44 GMT
I agree. The EU is outdated. Staying in the EU is the safe option but is a very short sighted view. Economically the EU will not grow anywhere near as fast as the rest of the world and we will be left behind. I agree mostly with what you say but I still feel it is better to be a part of eu and try to change it within than to be cast aside on our own. I cannot get my head around that we are now free to negotiate our own deals when we will have to compete with larger organisations? e.g. who is going to get a better deal from say japan? our small island or the rest of Europe?? its obvious the more trade you can do the better deal you will get, its like alfs corner shop[corrie] trying to compete with tesco Well this is all the Eu’s fault in the first place they had a chance to nip this in the bud but chose to give Cameron sod all when he tried to get some concessions The Eu cannot be changed from within they don’t want to alter there path
|
|
|
Post by yeokel on Nov 12, 2018 9:58:43 GMT
I agree. The EU is outdated. Staying in the EU is the safe option but is a very short sighted view. Economically the EU will not grow anywhere near as fast as the rest of the world and we will be left behind. I agree mostly with what you say but I still feel it is better to be a part of eu and try to change it within than to be cast aside on our own. I cannot get my head around that we are now free to negotiate our own deals when we will have to compete with larger organisations? e.g. who is going to get a better deal from say japan? our small island or the rest of Europe?? its obvious the more trade you can do the better deal you will get, its like alfs corner shop[corrie] trying to compete with tesco It’s not quite that simple though. A fictional example…. Let’s say that the EU puts a 15% tariff on imports of electrical items from Japan in order to afford some protection to jobs at Siemens and Philips. The Japs can retaliate, saying ok we’ll put an equivalent tariff on financial products supplied to us via Deutsche Bundesbank. We Brits go along and say “you can send as much of your Jap crap to us as you like. We love it! But in return, we would like our financial sector to have free access to your banking and insurance sectors”. Surely it is likely that British companies stand a chance of striking a better deal on Financial Services than their EU competitors? It won’t be as big a deal, or as far reaching as an EU deal but if it is correctly targeted Britain should be able to benefit very nicely. Multiply the above scenario by every country in the world and you begin to see the potential opportunities. And, all being well, we can be much more nimble about negotiating the deals than a juggernaut like the EU. And, as for change from within…….. That relies on the EU recognising that some change is required and from what I’ve seen, they are a long way from that position.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 12, 2018 10:39:55 GMT
I agree mostly with what you say but I still feel it is better to be a part of eu and try to change it within than to be cast aside on our own. I cannot get my head around that we are now free to negotiate our own deals when we will have to compete with larger organisations? e.g. who is going to get a better deal from say japan? our small island or the rest of Europe?? its obvious the more trade you can do the better deal you will get, its like alfs corner shop[corrie] trying to compete with tesco Well this is all the Eu’s fault in the first place they had a chance to nip this in the bud but chose to give Cameron sod all when he tried to get some concessions The Eu cannot be changed from within they don’t want to alter there path You are correct Waga. Weber is one of the favourite s( lined up ?) to be President of the Commission. Not only would he consolidate German control he is arguably even much more committed to ever closer union and the centralisation of power than we have had before. He says... “The EU is based on an ever closer union of European peoples. That is set out in the treaties. It is not negotiable for us,” Weber told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung. “We cannot sell the soul of Europe,” he added, also rejecting any demands to let national parliaments win rights to stop European laws. “If we grant every national parliament a veto right, Europe would come to a standstill,” he said uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-eu/new-head-of-european-conservatives-dismisses-camerons-eu-demands-idUKKBN0EI0ND20140607
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 12, 2018 11:09:28 GMT
I agree mostly with what you say but I still feel it is better to be a part of eu and try to change it within than to be cast aside on our own. I cannot get my head around that we are now free to negotiate our own deals when we will have to compete with larger organisations? e.g. who is going to get a better deal from say japan? our small island or the rest of Europe?? its obvious the more trade you can do the better deal you will get, its like alfs corner shop[corrie] trying to compete with tesco It’s not quite that simple though. A fictional example…. Let’s say that the EU puts a 15% tariff on imports of electrical items from Japan in order to afford some protection to jobs at Siemens and Philips. The Japs can retaliate, saying ok we’ll put an equivalent tariff on financial products supplied to us via Deutsche Bundesbank. We Brits go along and say “you can send as much of your Jap crap to us as you like. We love it! But in return, we would like our financial sector to have free access to your banking and insurance sectors”. Surely it is likely that British companies stand a chance of striking a better deal on Financial Services than their EU competitors? It won’t be as big a deal, or as far reaching as an EU deal but if it is correctly targeted Britain should be able to benefit very nicely. Multiply the above scenario by every country in the world and you begin to see the potential opportunities. And, all being well, we can be much more nimble about negotiating the deals than a juggernaut like the EU. And, as for change from within…….. That relies on the EU recognising that some change is required and from what I’ve seen, they are a long way from that position. I think that you are right Yeokel. It depends what the bigger organisation is trying to do/ it's purpose/ where the power lies / on whose behalf it acts/ and most importantly what are the ways in which the power is influenced/ democracy. Poland and East Germany were not too unhappy to leave the Soviet Union. Even poor India did not mind leaving the Empire..... although Gandhi was condescedently laughed at for wanting to do so.....much like Farage was until the Referendum was won
|
|
|
Post by Davef on Nov 12, 2018 11:24:10 GMT
Well this is all the Eu’s fault in the first place they had a chance to nip this in the bud but chose to give Cameron sod all when he tried to get some concessions The Eu cannot be changed from within they don’t want to alter there path You are correct Waga. Weber is one of the favourite s( lined up ?) to be President of the Commission. Not only would he consolidate German control he is arguably even much more committed to ever closer union and the centralisation of power than we have had before. He says... “The EU is based on an ever closer union of European peoples. That is set out in the treaties. It is not negotiable for us,” Weber told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung. “We cannot sell the soul of Europe,” he added, also rejecting any demands to let national parliaments win rights to stop European laws. “If we grant every national parliament a veto right, Europe would come to a standstill,” he said uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-eu/new-head-of-european-conservatives-dismisses-camerons-eu-demands-idUKKBN0EI0ND20140607It's not really the EU's fault though is it? The EU is what it is, a union of nearly 30 European nations. The UK is the country that has been consistently looking for concessions, wanting opt outs and not really buying into the whole concept. That's probably why France didn't really want us in it in the first place. David Cameron knew full well (and if he didn't he should've) that the European Union can't be reformed. He stated that we would be better in a reformed EU, but that was never going to be on the table. The EU didn't call a referendum. Whatever your stance on Brexit, this whole mess isn't their fault.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 12, 2018 12:24:11 GMT
You are correct Waga. Weber is one of the favourite s( lined up ?) to be President of the Commission. Not only would he consolidate German control he is arguably even much more committed to ever closer union and the centralisation of power than we have had before. He says... “The EU is based on an ever closer union of European peoples. That is set out in the treaties. It is not negotiable for us,” Weber told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung. “We cannot sell the soul of Europe,” he added, also rejecting any demands to let national parliaments win rights to stop European laws. “If we grant every national parliament a veto right, Europe would come to a standstill,” he said uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-eu/new-head-of-european-conservatives-dismisses-camerons-eu-demands-idUKKBN0EI0ND20140607It's not really the EU's fault though is it? The EU is what it is, a union of nearly 30 European nations. The UK is the country that has been consistently looking for concessions, wanting opt outs and not really buying into the whole concept. That's probably why France didn't really want us in it in the first place. David Cameron knew full well (and if he didn't he should've) that the European Union can't be reformed. He stated that we would be better in a reformed EU, but that was never going to be on the table. The EU didn't call a referendum. Whatever your stance on Brexit, this whole mess isn't their fault. I haven't actually mentioned "fault". For me you either want to belong to an organisation, the EU, that exists for Political and Economic union or you don't. There's nothing wrong in exercising your right not to belong. Most countries don't belong. I believe leaving could have been easier( but I've always said, even pre-referendum that it could take 10 years) if a) the decision had been genuinely accepted b) Someone who believes in Brexit was in charge of leaving c) the EU accepted the decision and negotiated in good faith. I think that you are right to suggest that history shows that we have never genuinely been part of it....I don't think the British public have ever connected to it. I don't think that they ever will. It does make a bit of a difference being an island and having a different history. Having been through what mainland Europe has been through in the last 100 years( not just the wars, but dictatorship and the " threat" of the USSR) I can understand some nations embracing the EU...it might seem better than what went before.... especially if you are getting financial benefits
|
|
sharpy
Academy Starlet
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_red.png)
Posts: 104
|
Post by sharpy on Nov 12, 2018 16:26:34 GMT
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 12, 2018 16:26:37 GMT
I see Gordon Brown has chipped in calling for a second referendum, now. Funny how all the original talk of respecting the outcome has virtually stopped, and more and more are actively seeking to stop Brexit, isn't it?
It's actually quite scary what is going on at the moment. I can't put the radio or TV on without hours of Brexit bashing, basically ridiculing my vote, and insulting my intelligence. Then Goldfinger and the like chime in to ram the point home. Every fucking day, drip, drip, drip.
I have no doubt whatever that the EU and Remain politicians will get their way. I thought it from the start, and everything that's happened since has confirmed it. Nobody leaves.
I just wish politicians would tell the truth(yeah, I know)and say "Fucking hell guys, you weren't supposed to vote out!" . They fucked up by being out of touch with huge parts of the country. Don't sugar coat it or pretend it's to defend the working class or manufacturing(both ignored and abandoned by the political class long ago).
And don't give people a vote and then deride them for voting the "wrong" way.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 12, 2018 16:46:42 GMT
I see Gordon Brown has chipped in calling for a second referendum, now. Funny how all the original talk of respecting the outcome has virtually stopped, and more and more are actively seeking to stop Brexit, isn't it? It's actually quite scary what is going on at the moment. I can't put the radio or TV on without hours of Brexit bashing, basically ridiculing my vote, and insulting my intelligence. Then Goldfinger and the like chime in to ram the point home. Every fucking day, drip, drip, drip. I have no doubt whatever that the EU and Remain politicians will get their way. I thought it from the start, and everything that's happened since has confirmed it. Nobody leaves. I just wish politicians would tell the truth(yeah, I know)and say "Fucking hell guys, you weren't supposed to vote out!" . They fucked up by being out of touch with huge parts of the country. Don't sugar coat it or pretend it's to defend the working class or manufacturing(both ignored and abandoned by the political class long ago). And don't give people a vote and then deride them for voting the "wrong" way. I agree Tricky, except hope rests eternal....I think that we could actually leave.... properly......mind you I do think that there might be alot of upheaval/division/ nastiness.......I think that we might be ' punished'....a friend said to me yesterday that some within the EU hierarchy may even ' not mind' some element of the " troubles" to return in order to blame Brexit.... conspiracy theory too far for some, but I not so sure.
|
|
|
Post by Miles Offside on Nov 12, 2018 17:07:02 GMT
You are correct Waga. Weber is one of the favourite s( lined up ?) to be President of the Commission. Not only would he consolidate German control he is arguably even much more committed to ever closer union and the centralisation of power than we have had before. He says... “The EU is based on an ever closer union of European peoples. That is set out in the treaties. It is not negotiable for us,” Weber told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung. “We cannot sell the soul of Europe,” he added, also rejecting any demands to let national parliaments win rights to stop European laws. “If we grant every national parliament a veto right, Europe would come to a standstill,” he said uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-eu/new-head-of-european-conservatives-dismisses-camerons-eu-demands-idUKKBN0EI0ND20140607It's not really the EU's fault though is it? The EU is what it is, a union of nearly 30 European nations. The UK is the country that has been consistently looking for concessions, wanting opt outs and not really buying into the whole concept. That's probably why France didn't really want us in it in the first place. David Cameron knew full well (and if he didn't he should've) that the European Union can't be reformed. He stated that we would be better in a reformed EU, but that was never going to be on the table. The EU didn't call a referendum. Whatever your stance on Brexit, this whole mess isn't their fault. Unless I'm mistaken, the EU has already been reformed several times. In fact the creation of the EU (which we didn't vote to join) was effectively a re-forming of the Common Market (which we did). And wasn't the original clause about Free Movement of labour reformed to the free movement of people? That's what triggered mass migration. It also reformed by introducing the euro and creating a monetary union amongst many of its member states. Only two European states asked their populations if they wanted to give up their national currency. The rest didn't ask. The EU has also reformed every time it has added new member states. And many in the EU - certainly including Macron, and probably Merkel - would like to bring in additional reforms such as making the euro and Schengen compulsory, by introducing a Finance Minister and possibly a single European army. The current situation is a mess. But while it's true that they didn't call the referendum that led to Brexit, it's certainly the case that it suits them very much to make our exit as difficult and messy as possible, or try to frustrate it.
|
|
sharpy
Academy Starlet
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_red.png)
Posts: 104
|
Post by sharpy on Nov 12, 2018 17:20:49 GMT
Agree Miles offside.
No borders, single currency, one flag, one national anthem, one army, one parliment, one supreme court, one common language, one president. Scary ain`t it, more scary is that all those things above plus many more are either in operation today or have been put forward by the likes of Juncker and his cohorts.
I know why i voted out.
|
|
|
Post by capto on Nov 12, 2018 17:27:58 GMT
Molly Scott Cato MEP @mollymep · Lord Kerr, architect of #Article50 confirms on #wato that EU27 won't extend leave date for more fudge and indecision, but would 'by return of post' for the purpose of a #PeoplesVote www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/international-trade-committee/news-parliament-2017/chairs-statement-uk-goods-schedule-wto-17-19/Jacob Rees-MoggVerified account @jacob_Rees_Mogg The Cabinet ought to use its constitutional authority to stop a bad plan. David 48% #FBPE #Remain #FinalSay & Immigrant @oldbobcyprus British Airways set to become a Spanish company to escape Brexit (i.e. all of its taxes will be paid to the Spanish Treasury, not ours). Bravo Brexiters! 1. For every £1.00 (0.6% of GDP) we contribute to the EU, the country earns over £10 from membership 2. For every £10 the UK earns, 82%, so £8-20 goes to the top 1% of the population. 3. Everything quitters, leavers, brexiteers, far-right, MSM etc you about the EU is lies 4. Ask the question - why would they lie?
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 12, 2018 17:38:25 GMT
I see Gordon Brown has chipped in calling for a second referendum, now. Funny how all the original talk of respecting the outcome has virtually stopped, and more and more are actively seeking to stop Brexit, isn't it? It's actually quite scary what is going on at the moment. I can't put the radio or TV on without hours of Brexit bashing, basically ridiculing my vote, and insulting my intelligence. Then Goldfinger and the like chime in to ram the point home. Every fucking day, drip, drip, drip. I have no doubt whatever that the EU and Remain politicians will get their way. I thought it from the start, and everything that's happened since has confirmed it. Nobody leaves. I just wish politicians would tell the truth(yeah, I know)and say "Fucking hell guys, you weren't supposed to vote out!" . They fucked up by being out of touch with huge parts of the country. Don't sugar coat it or pretend it's to defend the working class or manufacturing(both ignored and abandoned by the political class long ago). And don't give people a vote and then deride them for voting the "wrong" way. I agree Tricky, except hope rests eternal....I think that we could actually leave.... properly......mind you I do think that there might be alot of upheaval/division/ nastiness.......I think that we might be ' punished'....a friend said to me yesterday that some within the EU hierarchy may even ' not mind' some element of the " troubles" to return in order to blame Brexit.... conspiracy theory too far for some, but I not so sure. Mate, I said that ages ago, maybe even on here! But not from the EU, from people in our own country. It's been used as a veiled threat already. An Irish MEP hinted at it on Question Time, the other night. I don't think it's too far fetched at all.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 12, 2018 17:57:48 GMT
For those who have a bit of doubt about the transfer of power and sovereignty have a listen to Guy
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Nov 12, 2018 18:29:14 GMT
I see Gordon Brown has chipped in calling for a second referendum, now. Funny how all the original talk of respecting the outcome has virtually stopped, and more and more are actively seeking to stop Brexit, isn't it? It's actually quite scary what is going on at the moment. I can't put the radio or TV on without hours of Brexit bashing, basically ridiculing my vote, and insulting my intelligence. Then Goldfinger and the like chime in to ram the point home. Every fucking day, drip, drip, drip. I have no doubt whatever that the EU and Remain politicians will get their way. I thought it from the start, and everything that's happened since has confirmed it. Nobody leaves. I just wish politicians would tell the truth(yeah, I know)and say "Fucking hell guys, you weren't supposed to vote out!" . They fucked up by being out of touch with huge parts of the country. Don't sugar coat it or pretend it's to defend the working class or manufacturing(both ignored and abandoned by the political class long ago). And don't give people a vote and then deride them for voting the "wrong" way. Brown and Blair who never gave the promised referendum on the Lisbon treaty want another referendum, this $hit is too funny. By hook or by crook looks like we are heading for a no deal as the EU have couldn't stop themselves from completely taking the piss.
|
|
|
Post by Davef on Nov 13, 2018 9:06:37 GMT
It's not really the EU's fault though is it? The EU is what it is, a union of nearly 30 European nations. The UK is the country that has been consistently looking for concessions, wanting opt outs and not really buying into the whole concept. That's probably why France didn't really want us in it in the first place. David Cameron knew full well (and if he didn't he should've) that the European Union can't be reformed. He stated that we would be better in a reformed EU, but that was never going to be on the table. The EU didn't call a referendum. Whatever your stance on Brexit, this whole mess isn't their fault. Unless I'm mistaken, the EU has already been reformed several times. In fact the creation of the EU (which we didn't vote to join) was effectively a re-forming of the Common Market (which we did). And wasn't the original clause about Free Movement of labour reformed to the free movement of people? That's what triggered mass migration. It also reformed by introducing the euro and creating a monetary union amongst many of its member states. Only two European states asked their populations if they wanted to give up their national currency. The rest didn't ask. The EU has also reformed every time it has added new member states. And many in the EU - certainly including Macron, and probably Merkel - would like to bring in additional reforms such as making the euro and Schengen compulsory, by introducing a Finance Minister and possibly a single European army. The current situation is a mess. But while it's true that they didn't call the referendum that led to Brexit, it's certainly the case that it suits them very much to make our exit as difficult and messy as possible, or try to frustrate it. That's not the kind of reform that Cameron was alluding to though is it? All the reforms you've mentioned there are taking the EU down the path of ever closer union which is their ultimate goal and which Britain has never been comfortable with.
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 13, 2018 9:26:00 GMT
Unless I'm mistaken, the EU has already been reformed several times. In fact the creation of the EU (which we didn't vote to join) was effectively a re-forming of the Common Market (which we did). And wasn't the original clause about Free Movement of labour reformed to the free movement of people? That's what triggered mass migration. It also reformed by introducing the euro and creating a monetary union amongst many of its member states. Only two European states asked their populations if they wanted to give up their national currency. The rest didn't ask. The EU has also reformed every time it has added new member states. And many in the EU - certainly including Macron, and probably Merkel - would like to bring in additional reforms such as making the euro and Schengen compulsory, by introducing a Finance Minister and possibly a single European army. The current situation is a mess. But while it's true that they didn't call the referendum that led to Brexit, it's certainly the case that it suits them very much to make our exit as difficult and messy as possible, or try to frustrate it. That's not the kind of reform that Cameron was alluding to though is it? All the reforms you've mentioned there are taking the EU down the path of ever closer union which is their ultimate goal and which Britain has never been comfortable with. What was your stance on Brexit? Too idle to trawl through 100's of pages, sorry!
|
|
|
Post by yeokel on Nov 13, 2018 12:07:16 GMT
I'm beinning to quite like Kate Hoey. From the Guardian..... Guardian link" The Labour MP Kate Hoey, one of the few Brexiters in the parliamentary Labour party, says in an article for LabourList that she will not vote for a Brexit deal that panders to the Irish government’s demands.The Irish government, in cahoots with the EU, has deliberately made the border an issue and unfortunately our prime minister and her officials have fallen for it completely by agreeing to a backstop that would see NI being treated differently to the rest of the UK. By implying that the peace process is threatened by a hard border, even though no-one has said they will build it, is scaremongering of the worst kind. The EU wants to keep us locked in to their regulations and rules: the Irish government is playing hardball even though it would suffer most if the UK were to leave on WTO rules. The Irish PM has behaved rather shamefully with some of his rhetoric and is clearly intent on becoming a future EU commissioner ...
Leo Varadkar’s government has erected and maintained a hard border against Northern Ireland fishermen in the hope that this will exert some kind of influence on the UK during the wider Brexit negotiations. Our UK government claims to be maintaining the moral high ground on these issues, but the question arises: how long does the UK keep to the moral high ground when dealing with an Irish government that is taking our goodwill for granted?
When will the prime minister speak out and condemn this behaviour? When will she start speaking out in support of British citizens rather than seeming to care more about Irish views? It is this hypocrisy from Dublin that makes it certain that I and many other MPs will not support an agreement with the EU that panders to this kind of behaviour.This is significant because until now it had been assumed that Hoey was likely to vote with the government on withdrawal agreement because she has defied that Labour whip and backed the Tories on Brexit issues before." Telling it like it is!
|
|
|
Post by xchpotter on Nov 13, 2018 12:13:30 GMT
I'm beinning to quite like Kate Hoey. From the Guardian..... Guardian link" The Labour MP Kate Hoey, one of the few Brexiters in the parliamentary Labour party, says in an article for LabourList that she will not vote for a Brexit deal that panders to the Irish government’s demands.The Irish government, in cahoots with the EU, has deliberately made the border an issue and unfortunately our prime minister and her officials have fallen for it completely by agreeing to a backstop that would see NI being treated differently to the rest of the UK. By implying that the peace process is threatened by a hard border, even though no-one has said they will build it, is scaremongering of the worst kind. The EU wants to keep us locked in to their regulations and rules: the Irish government is playing hardball even though it would suffer most if the UK were to leave on WTO rules. The Irish PM has behaved rather shamefully with some of his rhetoric and is clearly intent on becoming a future EU commissioner ...
Leo Varadkar’s government has erected and maintained a hard border against Northern Ireland fishermen in the hope that this will exert some kind of influence on the UK during the wider Brexit negotiations. Our UK government claims to be maintaining the moral high ground on these issues, but the question arises: how long does the UK keep to the moral high ground when dealing with an Irish government that is taking our goodwill for granted?
When will the prime minister speak out and condemn this behaviour? When will she start speaking out in support of British citizens rather than seeming to care more about Irish views? It is this hypocrisy from Dublin that makes it certain that I and many other MPs will not support an agreement with the EU that panders to this kind of behaviour.This is significant because until now it had been assumed that Hoey was likely to vote with the government on withdrawal agreement because she has defied that Labour whip and backed the Tories on Brexit issues before." Telling it like it is! I agree. What has frustrated me in all of this has been the lack of unity within Government, opposition and the public where,as a consequence,the position of the UK has been weakened. In some way you have to take your hat off to the EU...their unified approach has meant that wanky little countries like Rep of Ireland and even fuckin Malta are having a say and influence over the UKs future. What a joke this once great country has become.
|
|
|
Post by lordb on Nov 13, 2018 12:18:50 GMT
I'm beinning to quite like Kate Hoey. From the Guardian..... Guardian link" The Labour MP Kate Hoey, one of the few Brexiters in the parliamentary Labour party, says in an article for LabourList that she will not vote for a Brexit deal that panders to the Irish government’s demands.The Irish government, in cahoots with the EU, has deliberately made the border an issue and unfortunately our prime minister and her officials have fallen for it completely by agreeing to a backstop that would see NI being treated differently to the rest of the UK. By implying that the peace process is threatened by a hard border, even though no-one has said they will build it, is scaremongering of the worst kind. The EU wants to keep us locked in to their regulations and rules: the Irish government is playing hardball even though it would suffer most if the UK were to leave on WTO rules. The Irish PM has behaved rather shamefully with some of his rhetoric and is clearly intent on becoming a future EU commissioner ...
Leo Varadkar’s government has erected and maintained a hard border against Northern Ireland fishermen in the hope that this will exert some kind of influence on the UK during the wider Brexit negotiations. Our UK government claims to be maintaining the moral high ground on these issues, but the question arises: how long does the UK keep to the moral high ground when dealing with an Irish government that is taking our goodwill for granted?
When will the prime minister speak out and condemn this behaviour? When will she start speaking out in support of British citizens rather than seeming to care more about Irish views? It is this hypocrisy from Dublin that makes it certain that I and many other MPs will not support an agreement with the EU that panders to this kind of behaviour.This is significant because until now it had been assumed that Hoey was likely to vote with the government on withdrawal agreement because she has defied that Labour whip and backed the Tories on Brexit issues before." Telling it like it is! is she? It was discussed,at length, before the referendum was even agreed to be held that a leave vote would result in 'the Irish border question'.This isn't something that the 'EU, has deliberately made the border an issue'. Whoever was Prime Minister this is playing out exactly as anticipated, the reality is there is only one solution to this issue (other than staying in the EU) & that's Northern Ireland leaving the UK & becoming either part of Ireland or becoming an independent state neither of which is going to happen (or at least not in the short to medium term). Brexiters ignored this from the start, simply outrageous to pretend this is post referendum posturing. It's a fault line in Brexit which has not been addressed & won't be. hard border is inevitable.
|
|
|
Post by 3putts on Nov 13, 2018 12:30:46 GMT
david Cameron should be tried for treason. this Brexit vote will end up splitting the united kingdom. the scots will want another chance to leave[and they will get it and rejoin the eu] same goes for wales and n.ireland, hell even communities will be asking for independence eg cornwall. allthis will inevitably lead to conflict is that what we really want in this day and age? great brittain was the finest country in the world and we have thrown it all away because the people stupidly believed the lies put out by Murdoch and his cronies.
|
|
|
Post by yeokel on Nov 13, 2018 12:51:47 GMT
I'm beinning to quite like Kate Hoey. From the Guardian..... Guardian link" The Labour MP Kate Hoey, one of the few Brexiters in the parliamentary Labour party, says in an article for LabourList that she will not vote for a Brexit deal that panders to the Irish government’s demands.The Irish government, in cahoots with the EU, has deliberately made the border an issue and unfortunately our prime minister and her officials have fallen for it completely by agreeing to a backstop that would see NI being treated differently to the rest of the UK. By implying that the peace process is threatened by a hard border, even though no-one has said they will build it, is scaremongering of the worst kind. The EU wants to keep us locked in to their regulations and rules: the Irish government is playing hardball even though it would suffer most if the UK were to leave on WTO rules. The Irish PM has behaved rather shamefully with some of his rhetoric and is clearly intent on becoming a future EU commissioner ...
Leo Varadkar’s government has erected and maintained a hard border against Northern Ireland fishermen in the hope that this will exert some kind of influence on the UK during the wider Brexit negotiations. Our UK government claims to be maintaining the moral high ground on these issues, but the question arises: how long does the UK keep to the moral high ground when dealing with an Irish government that is taking our goodwill for granted?
When will the prime minister speak out and condemn this behaviour? When will she start speaking out in support of British citizens rather than seeming to care more about Irish views? It is this hypocrisy from Dublin that makes it certain that I and many other MPs will not support an agreement with the EU that panders to this kind of behaviour.This is significant because until now it had been assumed that Hoey was likely to vote with the government on withdrawal agreement because she has defied that Labour whip and backed the Tories on Brexit issues before." Telling it like it is! is she? It was discussed,at length, before the referendum was even agreed to be held that a leave vote would result in 'the Irish border question'.This isn't something that the 'EU, has deliberately made the border an issue'. Whoever was Prime Minister this is playing out exactly as anticipated, the reality is there is only one solution to this issue (other than staying in the EU) & that's Northern Ireland leaving the UK & becoming either part of Ireland or becoming an independent state neither of which is going to happen (or at least not in the short to medium term). Brexiters ignored this from the start, simply outrageous to pretend this is post referendum posturing. It's a fault line in Brexit which has not been addressed & won't be. hard border is inevitable. The Irish PM has been playing the tough guy while he has his big EU mates standing by his side instead of looking for some sort of deal which will benefit his country (or, at least, minimise the harm to his country) as he and his countrymen have the most to lose if a hard border is reintroduced. He might be enjoying his moment in the spotlight at the moment, but he will be hammered if Irish trade with the UK is massively reduced as a result of a hard border and no-deal Brexit.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Nov 13, 2018 13:02:33 GMT
david Cameron should be tried for treason. this Brexit vote will end up splitting the united kingdom. the scots will want another chance to leave[and they will get it and rejoin the eu] same goes for wales and n.ireland, hell even communities will be asking for independence eg cornwall. allthis will inevitably lead to conflict is that what we really want in this day and age? great brittain was the finest country in the world and we have thrown it all away because the people stupidly believed the lies put out by Murdoch and his cronies. Treason ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/wMWjB17JNiCK5pUPtfmL.gif) Now if you said negligence / incompetence for not starting the planning in case of a leave vote you would have a point but Treason jesus wept... and I'm not being funny but the SNP scots want another vote to leave if it rains in the morning, the welsh voted for brexit so your analysis is starting to fall to pieces.....
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Nov 13, 2018 13:03:49 GMT
is she? It was discussed,at length, before the referendum was even agreed to be held that a leave vote would result in 'the Irish border question'.This isn't something that the 'EU, has deliberately made the border an issue'. Whoever was Prime Minister this is playing out exactly as anticipated, the reality is there is only one solution to this issue (other than staying in the EU) & that's Northern Ireland leaving the UK & becoming either part of Ireland or becoming an independent state neither of which is going to happen (or at least not in the short to medium term). Brexiters ignored this from the start, simply outrageous to pretend this is post referendum posturing. It's a fault line in Brexit which has not been addressed & won't be. hard border is inevitable. The Irish PM has been playing the tough guy while he has his big EU mates standing by his side instead of looking for some sort of deal which will benefit his country (or, at least, minimise the harm to his country) as he and his countrymen have the most to lose if a hard border is reintroduced. He might be enjoying his moment in the spotlight at the moment, but he will be hammered if Irish trade with the UK is massively reduced as a result of a hard border and no-deal Brexit. Yes the smart analysis is that the EU are really arguing about access to fish and keeping us in some sort of customs union to stop the UK having a competitive advantage.
|
|
|
Post by 3putts on Nov 13, 2018 13:05:24 GMT
david Cameron should be tried for treason. this Brexit vote will end up splitting the united kingdom. the scots will want another chance to leave[and they will get it and rejoin the eu] same goes for wales and n.ireland, hell even communities will be asking for independence eg cornwall. allthis will inevitably lead to conflict is that what we really want in this day and age? great brittain was the finest country in the world and we have thrown it all away because the people stupidly believed the lies put out by Murdoch and his cronies. Treason ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/wMWjB17JNiCK5pUPtfmL.gif) Now if you said negligence / incompetence for not starting the planning in case of a leave vote you would have a point but Treason jesus wept... and I'm not being funny but the SNP scots want another vote to leave if it rains in the morning, the welsh voted for brexit so your analysis is starting to fall to pieces..... TREASON he sat on his fat arse doing fuck all thinking[wrongly] that the british public wouldn't be so guillable to believe the lies spouted by the brexiters. now we are all going to pay.
|
|
|
Post by xchpotter on Nov 13, 2018 13:13:20 GMT
The Irish PM has been playing the tough guy while he has his big EU mates standing by his side instead of looking for some sort of deal which will benefit his country (or, at least, minimise the harm to his country) as he and his countrymen have the most to lose if a hard border is reintroduced. He might be enjoying his moment in the spotlight at the moment, but he will be hammered if Irish trade with the UK is massively reduced as a result of a hard border and no-deal Brexit. Yes the smart analysis is that the EU are really arguing about access to fish and keeping us in some sort of customs union to stop the UK having a competitive advantage. What a surprise. Everyone says they are our friends....surely friends wouldn’t do that would they?
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Nov 13, 2018 13:16:52 GMT
Treason ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/wMWjB17JNiCK5pUPtfmL.gif) Now if you said negligence / incompetence for not starting the planning in case of a leave vote you would have a point but Treason jesus wept... and I'm not being funny but the SNP scots want another vote to leave if it rains in the morning, the welsh voted for brexit so your analysis is starting to fall to pieces..... TREASON he sat on his fat arse doing fuck all thinking[wrongly] that the british public wouldn't be so guillable to believe the lies spouted by the brexiters. now we are all going to pay. Chill, chlorinated chicken is lovely with a bit of bbq sauce ![(thumbsup)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/q4Mqf5MqRwT9PY8UitYa.gif) You should also learn to filter out all the bullshit for example planes will be grounded in the UK if there is no deal of course they will ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/cj7bsBj2jOTuEAUVaPt5.gif) well that works two ways and the list of available holiday destinations for EU citizens would get a lot shorter if they are not able to fly in UK airspace plus thanks to the EU compensation rules on delayed flights it would take about 3 or 4 days tops to bankrupt and end pretty much every european airline but keep believing it all
|
|