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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jan 19, 2018 20:49:19 GMT
Maybe I should have written never ever discussed as the fucking huge problem/elephant in the room that this is. Yeah. Nothing to see here. Don't forget the Austrians Or Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republic. Crisis? What crisis?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 19, 2018 21:06:33 GMT
Have a look at Germany's ageing population. How on earth are they going to be paid for when they have retired and need care without immigration of young, working people. Immigration is not just good for Germany's overall economy, it is critical. Just taking this point on it's own. Who is going to care for the immigrants when they get old? That's a good point DC. Stats show that many return back to where they were born (Poles here for example) after a while. But many will stay in Germany, meet someone and have children and settle down. But they are very top heavy with a low birthrate (many western countries are) so they need some more young people to work and have children.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 19, 2018 21:08:54 GMT
Immigration hasn't hurt wage increases that much as they are above average according to the article. And have a look in the article where it says that Germans are becoming so well off they are focusing on work life balance rather than pay increases. Have a look at Germany's ageing population. How on earth are they going to be paid for when they have retired and need care without immigration of young, working people. Immigration is not just good for Germany's overall economy, it is critical. And certainly worth the partial impact from migration on lowering wages which could be counteracted by increased minimum wage (which is set domestically). Why don't you re-read the article and repeat it accurately? "Wage rises in the eurozone’s largest economy are barely above long-term averages in spite of skills shortages". "Barely above". And this bit.... "The lack of wage growth is causing a problem for the ECB as it tries to scrap its crisis-era stimulus measures." Actually means the ECB are trying to stop printing extra euros by the billion because they know they're just artificially propping up a failed economic project. They've been printing 100's of billions and it's still on it's arse. What's so bad about barely above average wage rises? It's still above average!
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jan 19, 2018 21:14:35 GMT
Just taking this point on it's own. Who is going to care for the immigrants when they get old? That's a good point DC. Stats show that many return back to where they were born (Poles here for example) after a while. But many will stay in Germany, meet someone and have children and settle down. But they are very top heavy with a low birthrate (many western countries are) so they need some more young people to work and have children. "Many countries are". Correct. Germany. Spain. But not the UK. The UK's population will be the size of Germany's by 2050 even if we don't take another single migrant. So, using your logic, remind me again why we need immigration?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 20, 2018 18:02:01 GMT
That's a good point DC. Stats show that many return back to where they were born (Poles here for example) after a while. But many will stay in Germany, meet someone and have children and settle down. But they are very top heavy with a low birthrate (many western countries are) so they need some more young people to work and have children. "Many countries are". Correct. Germany. Spain. But not the UK. The UK's population will be the size of Germany's by 2050 even if we don't take another single migrant. So, using your logic, remind me again why we need immigration? We need immigration because they do lots of jobs here. From doctors to working in cafes. They make a net contribution to our economy that is far greater than the average Brit (particularly those from the EU). If we shut our borders, we won't be welcome to go anywhere. It would be political and diplomatic suicide to stop all immigration. Scotland do have a top heavy society interms of the elderly. In the UK as a whole it is a problem: from the ONS: As a result of the ageing population the old age dependency ratio (OADR) is increasing. The OADR is the number of people over 65 years old for every 1,000 people aged between 16 and 64 years old – in mid-2016 the UK’s OADR was 285. It is a useful measure to understand how the balance in the population will change, particularly when planning for the needs of the different age groups.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 21, 2018 10:12:16 GMT
Apart from when it's regularly discussed in The Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail when they like to make the most out of coalition discussions failing, almost as if they want to project a fractured Europe! By contrast, the agreement between CDU and SPD was covered in tiny detail on page 17! How do I know this? Because I read the Telegraph every day. They've regularly covered Merkel's travails. Or is the Telegraph not MSM in your eyes these days? Amazes me that people will just ignore what doesn't fit their agendas! Maybe I should have written never ever discussed as the fucking huge problem/elephant in the room that this is. An absolute Mount Everest of a problem because a shift to the right among German voters has disrupted the EU's cosy club. And coming after the Dutch taking 9 months to form a Government because they were trying to avoid involving a right wing party. Not to mention Spain who's Government couldn't beat the voters with sticks and then couldn't beat them with votes. Let's not forget the Italian GE coming up in March with the anti-euro, anti-immigration parties coalition heading the polls lead by Silvio fucking Berlusconi !! Yeah. Nothing to see here. It was also not discussed on page 20 of yesterday's Telegraph and also not discussed on the Papers section of the Andrew Marr BBC show this morning. You just can't trust the MSM. I think when people are able to confidently assert in a post using the words "never ever" to indicate absolute certainty in their thoughts, something which is so transparently and obviously wrong, it gives an extremely good barometer of how and why they think like they do. Simply wrongheaded and untrustworthy critical thinking ability, nothing more nothing less. Its what Trump likes to call "truthful hyperbole" in his Art of the Deal biography but we all recognise it as bullshit.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jan 21, 2018 10:15:42 GMT
"Many countries are". Correct. Germany. Spain. But not the UK. The UK's population will be the size of Germany's by 2050 even if we don't take another single migrant. So, using your logic, remind me again why we need immigration? We need immigration because they do lots of jobs here. From doctors to working in cafes. They make a net contribution to our economy that is far greater than the average Brit (particularly those from the EU). If we shut our borders, we won't be welcome to go anywhere. It would be political and diplomatic suicide to stop all immigration. Scotland do have a top heavy society interms of the elderly. In the UK as a whole it is a problem: from the ONS: As a result of the ageing population the old age dependency ratio (OADR) is increasing. The OADR is the number of people over 65 years old for every 1,000 people aged between 16 and 64 years old – in mid-2016 the UK’s OADR was 285. It is a useful measure to understand how the balance in the population will change, particularly when planning for the needs of the different age groups. So the UK needs immigration because they're all doctors and baristas and Germany needs immigration because they have a dwindling population. So every country would benefit from immigration then?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 21, 2018 10:34:09 GMT
We need immigration because they do lots of jobs here. From doctors to working in cafes. They make a net contribution to our economy that is far greater than the average Brit (particularly those from the EU). If we shut our borders, we won't be welcome to go anywhere. It would be political and diplomatic suicide to stop all immigration. Scotland do have a top heavy society interms of the elderly. In the UK as a whole it is a problem: from the ONS: As a result of the ageing population the old age dependency ratio (OADR) is increasing. The OADR is the number of people over 65 years old for every 1,000 people aged between 16 and 64 years old – in mid-2016 the UK’s OADR was 285. It is a useful measure to understand how the balance in the population will change, particularly when planning for the needs of the different age groups. So the UK needs immigration because they're all doctors and baristas and Germany needs immigration because the have a dwindling population. So every country would benefit from immigration then? And, as if to prove my point above, some more muddled conclusions! Those countries with an ageing demographic yes. Not all countries have that though.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 21, 2018 10:38:17 GMT
We need immigration because they do lots of jobs here. From doctors to working in cafes. They make a net contribution to our economy that is far greater than the average Brit (particularly those from the EU). If we shut our borders, we won't be welcome to go anywhere. It would be political and diplomatic suicide to stop all immigration. Scotland do have a top heavy society interms of the elderly. In the UK as a whole it is a problem: from the ONS: As a result of the ageing population the old age dependency ratio (OADR) is increasing. The OADR is the number of people over 65 years old for every 1,000 people aged between 16 and 64 years old – in mid-2016 the UK’s OADR was 285. It is a useful measure to understand how the balance in the population will change, particularly when planning for the needs of the different age groups. So the UK needs immigration because they're all doctors and baristas and Germany needs immigration because the have a dwindling population. So every country would benefit from immigration then? I listed many positives about immigration you have ignored. The only country I know of that has had no or next no immigration for many years is North Korea, so my answer to your question is yes, as I don't think their model of society or economy is one any country should aim for. You may disagree.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 21, 2018 11:02:58 GMT
So the UK needs immigration because they're all doctors and baristas and Germany needs immigration because the have a dwindling population. So every country would benefit from immigration then? I listed many positives about immigration you have ignored. The only country I know of that has had no or next no immigration for many years is North Korea, so my answer to your question is yes, as I don't think their model of society or economy is one any country should aim for. You may disagree. That's his MO, Oggy, ignore the stuff you don't want to consider and you'll always convince yourself you're right! How else do you explain someone genuinely thinking that the entire MSM (always a giveaway as to someone's thinking BTW) has been completely ignoring the coalition talks in Germany? He'll be blocking you soon enough!
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Post by essexstokey on Jan 21, 2018 11:04:05 GMT
So the UK needs immigration because they're all doctors and baristas and Germany needs immigration because the have a dwindling population. So every country would benefit from immigration then? I listed many positives about immigration you have ignored. The only country I know of that has had no or next no immigration for many years is North Korea, so my answer to your question is yes, as I don't think their model of society or economy is one any country should aim for. You may disagree. Well as roger likes kim jon may I think the North Korea model is what he is looking for
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 21, 2018 11:11:33 GMT
The real issue is not about the merits of immigration , but the control of immigration, WHO controls immigration, a Europe without borders, AND the encouragement of mass immigration, with no consideration of integration and the effects on culture.
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Post by Northy on Jan 21, 2018 11:14:31 GMT
So the UK needs immigration because they're all doctors and baristas and Germany needs immigration because the have a dwindling population. So every country would benefit from immigration then? I listed many positives about immigration you have ignored. The only country I know of that has had no or next no immigration for many years is North Korea, so my answer to your question is yes, as I don't think their model of society or economy is one any country should aim for. You may disagree. Japans immigration and foreign numbers living there dropped by 5 % early this decade, but is now back to where it was in 2010 so they havent had a large increase in numbers.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jan 21, 2018 11:36:05 GMT
So the UK needs immigration because they're all doctors and baristas and Germany needs immigration because the have a dwindling population. So every country would benefit from immigration then? I listed many positives about immigration you have ignored. The only country I know of that has had no or next no immigration for many years is North Korea, so my answer to your question is yes, as I don't think their model of society or economy is one any country should aim for. You may disagree. You don't half talk bollocks. What the fuck has North Korea got to do with anything? You spout your opinions as facts and you think if you keep repeating them people will eventually agree with you.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jan 21, 2018 11:37:02 GMT
Maybe I should have written never ever discussed as the fucking huge problem/elephant in the room that this is. An absolute Mount Everest of a problem because a shift to the right among German voters has disrupted the EU's cosy club. And coming after the Dutch taking 9 months to form a Government because they were trying to avoid involving a right wing party. Not to mention Spain who's Government couldn't beat the voters with sticks and then couldn't beat them with votes. Let's not forget the Italian GE coming up in March with the anti-euro, anti-immigration parties coalition heading the polls lead by Silvio fucking Berlusconi !! Yeah. Nothing to see here. It was also not discussed on page 20 of yesterday's Telegraph and also not discussed on the Papers section of the Andrew Marr BBC show this morning. You just can't trust the MSM. I think when people are able to confidently assert in a post using the words "never ever" to indicate absolute certainty in their thoughts, something which is so transparently and obviously wrong, it gives an extremely good barometer of how and why they think like they do. Simply wrongheaded and untrustworthy critical thinking ability, nothing more nothing less. Its what Trump likes to call "truthful hyperbole" in his Art of the Deal biography but we all recognise it as bullshit. Page 20.
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Post by essexstokey on Jan 21, 2018 15:04:49 GMT
I listed many positives about immigration you have ignored. The only country I know of that has had no or next no immigration for many years is North Korea, so my answer to your question is yes, as I don't think their model of society or economy is one any country should aim for. You may disagree. You don't half talk bollocks. That's good coming from you Roger the king of bollocks talking What the fuck has North Korea got to do with anything? You spout your opinions as facts and you think if you keep repeating them people will eventually agree with you. again that's good coming from you Roger with all the rubbish and miss information you spout its like you have political verbal diarrhea as Roger says he's blocked me hope someone tells him he's been insulted
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Post by capto on Jan 21, 2018 17:14:58 GMT
The real issue is not about the merits of immigration , but the control of immigration, WHO controls immigration, a Europe without borders, AND the encouragement of mass immigration, with no consideration of integration and the effects on culture. Can UK control it's borders in the EU? Yes. Can the UK control it's borders outside the EU? Yes. If the politicians don't put measures in to control their own borders, don't blame the EU for their own / your failings. truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-continually-falling-press-freedom-tells-of-another-disturbing-story/Dear Brexshits, “I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.” Love, Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post by stokemark on Jan 21, 2018 17:30:15 GMT
I listed many positives about immigration you have ignored. The only country I know of that has had no or next no immigration for many years is North Korea, so my answer to your question is yes, as I don't think their model of society or economy is one any country should aim for. You may disagree. You don't half talk bollocks. What the fuck has North Korea got to do with anything? You spout your opinions as facts and you think if you keep repeating them people will eventually agree with you. You are the one who talks bollocks youth Have you left your bunker yet this year ?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 21, 2018 17:55:43 GMT
The real issue is not about the merits of immigration , but the control of immigration, WHO controls immigration, a Europe without borders, AND the encouragement of mass immigration, with no consideration of integration and the effects on culture. Can UK control it's borders in the EU? Yes. Can the UK control it's borders outside the EU? Yes. If the politicians don't put measures in to control their own borders, don't blame the EU for their own / your failings. truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-continually-falling-press-freedom-tells-of-another-disturbing-story/Dear Brexshits, “I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.” Love, Friedrich Nietzsche As you know the EU wants no borders, free movement , as we move to ever closer union. The point is ....there is no need whatsoever to even consider the EU in relation to controlling our borders and but we have to. The project is not finished. The issue is not just a UK issue, Hungary and Poland are not too happy about this either , but as financial beneficiaries have to play it carefully.... because of the threats of Guy.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 21, 2018 18:12:15 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 21, 2018 19:46:39 GMT
I listed many positives about immigration you have ignored. The only country I know of that has had no or next no immigration for many years is North Korea, so my answer to your question is yes, as I don't think their model of society or economy is one any country should aim for. You may disagree. You don't half talk bollocks. What the fuck has North Korea got to do with anything? You spout your opinions as facts and you think if you keep repeating them people will eventually agree with you. You asked me if i think immigration benefits countries. I said yes vecause North Korea is the only nation I know of with a policy of little or no immigration for a sustained period of time, and I don't think that's a good model. So I was using North Korea as an example as to why I hold a point of view. Sorry if that offends you!
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Post by capto on Jan 21, 2018 22:31:50 GMT
As you know the EU wants no borders, free movement , as we move to ever closer union. The point is ....there is no need whatsoever to even consider the EU in relation to controlling our borders and but we have to. The project is not finished. The issue is not just a UK issue, Hungary and Poland are not too happy about this either , but as financial beneficiaries have to play it carefully.... because of the threats of Guy. Free movement is for 90 days and then dependent on them getting a job - if they can't get a job they have to return to their country - but if there's no border controls or monitoring, they're not going to are they? Please don't blame the EU for the UK's short comings. If we controlled our borders properly, it could. E then rolled out to the other approx 50% who come from other countries ( i.e. Outside the EU) 😀
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 22, 2018 8:14:30 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 22, 2018 8:21:14 GMT
As you know the EU wants no borders, free movement , as we move to ever closer union. The point is ....there is no need whatsoever to even consider the EU in relation to controlling our borders and but we have to. The project is not finished. The issue is not just a UK issue, Hungary and Poland are not too happy about this either , but as financial beneficiaries have to play it carefully.... because of the threats of Guy. Yes, well, if you wish to join a club you have to decide whether its beneficial overall. Then, if you do join, as a member you have a voice and voting rights to try to amend things as you see fit. Here in the UK we've effectively decided that its better to be excluded from being able to influence any decisions the club may take which will directly affect us nonetheless. And be excluded from a club which was beneficial overall in so many ways, not least economically over the last 25 years. Barmy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 9:07:54 GMT
As you know the EU wants no borders, free movement , as we move to ever closer union. The point is ....there is no need whatsoever to even consider the EU in relation to controlling our borders and but we have to. The project is not finished. The issue is not just a UK issue, Hungary and Poland are not too happy about this either , but as financial beneficiaries have to play it carefully.... because of the threats of Guy. Yes, well, if you wish to join a club you have to decide whether its beneficial overall. Then, if you do join, as a member you have a voice and voting rights to try to amend things as you see fit. Here in the UK we've effectively decided that its better to be excluded from being able to influence any decisions the club may take which will directly affect us nonetheless. And be excluded from a club which was beneficial overall in so many ways, not least economically over the last 25 years. Barmy. I don't think the not so well off or some of the working class feel as though it has been beneficial to them though, sure all the politicians told them they would be less well off, the same politicians who they feel have not served them or improved their lives. So some people may feel that if you're already poor then brexit can't make you poor, or the economic hit would be worth the price to get out of a club which you feel does not serve you're best interests.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 22, 2018 9:40:33 GMT
It was also not discussed on page 20 of yesterday's Telegraph and also not discussed on the Papers section of the Andrew Marr BBC show this morning. You just can't trust the MSM. I think when people are able to confidently assert in a post using the words "never ever" to indicate absolute certainty in their thoughts, something which is so transparently and obviously wrong, it gives an extremely good barometer of how and why they think like they do. Simply wrongheaded and untrustworthy critical thinking ability, nothing more nothing less. Its what Trump likes to call "truthful hyperbole" in his Art of the Deal biography but we all recognise it as bullshit. Page 20. Front page and top of page 12 today! #nevereverdiscussed
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 22, 2018 9:54:44 GMT
Yes, well, if you wish to join a club you have to decide whether its beneficial overall. Then, if you do join, as a member you have a voice and voting rights to try to amend things as you see fit. Here in the UK we've effectively decided that its better to be excluded from being able to influence any decisions the club may take which will directly affect us nonetheless. And be excluded from a club which was beneficial overall in so many ways, not least economically over the last 25 years. Barmy. I don't think the not so well off or some of the working class feel as though it has been beneficial to them though, sure all the politicians told them they would be less well off, the same politicians who they feel have not served them or improved their lives. So some people may feel that if you're already poor then brexit can't make you poor, or the economic hit would be worth the price to get out of a club which you feel does not serve you're best interests. Thats probably true, but thats probably because they havent been made aware enough of the benefits of being in the EU and, more importantly, the single market for the last quarter of a century. In itself this may have created the very jobs they rely on. The UK benefited greater than most other EU countries from being in the single market, in terms of GDP. If this national success didnt trickle down to the poor, wouldnt that be the fault of our own national policies rather than the EU? The EU doesnt control where industry, business and jobs go, other than providing funds directly to poorer regions of the UK, something which they will no longer receive. So, you could argue that the EU has actually worked to provide for the poor. The fact that the poor voted overwhelmingly to leave is probably an indication of their ignorance over what the EU did in this regard, something our govt should take the blame for, although you do have to bear in mind that governments are desperate to keep our rightwing dominated press onside and that much of this press is owned by non-dom tax dodgers with a vested interest in Britain leaving the EU! The other argument made by the poorer areas is that immigration drives down wages. Yet any analysis of the vote reveals that poor, overwhelmingly white British areas with little or no immigration were way more likely to vote leave.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 22, 2018 9:58:52 GMT
The real issue is not about the merits of immigration , but the control of immigration, WHO controls immigration, a Europe without borders, AND the encouragement of mass immigration, with no consideration of integration and the effects on culture. Can UK control it's borders in the EU? Yes. Can the UK control it's borders outside the EU? Yes. If the politicians don't put measures in to control their own borders, don't blame the EU for their own / your failings. truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-continually-falling-press-freedom-tells-of-another-disturbing-story/Dear Brexshits, “I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.” Love, Friedrich Nietzsche Capto I'll try to be brief. I've read your link....it makes no reference to the issues as discussed....why have you posted it. Please could you cut and paste a relevant section , then I could respond. Who are TruPublica, by the way, I wouldn't trust the source myself. You are clearly missing the point again. I understand the conditions for free movement/residency/ three months/ work conditions.... but actually no country in Europe implements them.... impossible in reality in a borderless situation..... Honestly if you show me otherwise I would appreciate it to add to my understanding., even non member Switzerland, are now questioning it. This is the point , as your response demonstrates.........just like any independent, sovereign country ( let's say Japan, or Argentine, or USA) ... we should control our borders without ant reference whatsoever to the EU. What's it got to do with them.......I'll tell you....Political and economic CONTROL... ever closer union ( no borders, no national identity) as we move towards a United States of Europe. Likewise the decision to take/ not take " economic migrants " should be ours alone, not based upon a plan or quota of Mrs Merkel...Poland, Hungary ( and Austria) are having problems with this as they try to protect what matters to them... their values and culture..... they would be OUT if they did not ose financially, and we are the fall guys, paying for this experiment. You are correct about the inadequacies of our government.... if/when we leave the problems of the NHS, border control, housing, a future for our youth, Islam integration ( or not), transport, the power of corporations, the country's debt, economics, democracy etc etc remain.... sadly Labour would probably fare worse..... no one actully really represents the working class any more
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 22, 2018 11:40:51 GMT
Well well osbournes side kick in the treasury has admitted he and all the other remain doom mongers got it wrong again
Apparently the economy is not going down but growth is going up better than expected
In his own words brexiters are going to be like cats that have got the cream
All i want now is the meringue and raspberries to go with it
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 22, 2018 12:15:27 GMT
Well well osbournes side kick in the treasury has admitted he and all the other remain doom mongers got it wrong again Apparently the economy is not going down but growth is going up better than expected In his own words brexiters are going to be like cats that have got the cream All i want now is the meringue and raspberries to go with it Time for the remainers to start polishing the racism card again and start banging on about the side of buses then And Roger this Miss Information Essex was talking about in reference to your is she your new lady
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