|
Post by mrcoke on Dec 18, 2019 9:53:55 GMT
Thank you for your considered response. I agree with your premise that lawyers know more about the legal issues etc. Everyone comes to their own view of issues from judgements made on information and experience. In my own case I served on a European industrial committee for many years and chaired it for three years. There are many aspects to European union, legal just being one. Others include finance, research and development, trade, security, etc. but in my opinion democracy is the most important. When I was young it was not so important to me and I was more concerned with economics and peace, but as I have grown older and witnessed the ways of the world I have changed my views to having greater concern for freedom and self rule. Most of the other issues can be addressed in a relative short time span, but history teaches us that freedom can take centuries to achieve and if lost be extremely difficult to recover without violence. Just look at Russia or China ( eg Hong Kong). I do not want this country to be part of a united states of Europe, which is the clear objective of those that are in charge of the EU. There is no ideal democracy, it does not exist. Some propose proportional representation, but that just means you get government that no one wanted. In fact in can lead to an extreme minority having undue influence such as the DUP recently, or what the SNP were seeking to achieve with Labour. Your statement that the people have been duped is contemptable. The general public are intuitively wise and know when they are being conned. I notice that many of the losers in this election are blaming the media. Well there is certainly a right wing press, but I think it is in a minority, surely more people are exposed the left wing bias of the BBC and Channel 4. I know people who hate the Daily Mail who have voted Tory in this election, because this election has been about leaving the EU and stopping Corbyn getting into power. That is the justice metered out to Labour who supposedly sat on the fence on Brexit, but were actually bending to the loony left instead of the working class, and proposing the economics of the mad house with policies like nationalisation. When you get into debt, you have to reduce your spending. The world fell into an economic crisis in 2008, which the Blair government earlier in the decade were partly responsible for by relaxing control of the finance industry. The Lib Dems have suffered for supporting austerity during the coalition years, but they knew it was an economic necessity as does any sensible person knows when expenditure exceeds income. The Labour party were the liars pretending austerity was not necessary. Hopefully that period in our history is past and the new government can relax the spending control. Maybe I am wrong in putting sovereignty the highest priority. I know there are "greens" who consider saving the planet more important. But IMO the future of the planet is in the hands of China, USA, India, and Russia who are responsible for most of the pollution. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, but 17th on CO2 emissions and a lot lower in the rankings on emissions per head of population. So I consider it an aspect we have little influence on. Where we differ is about democracy. There are more elected law makers in the EU than in our system (percentage wise we have the unelected Lords, the EU has just 28 unelected law makers in comparison). It is more democratic. And in my opinion in this world it is better to be the 2nd biggest influence in one of the biggest blocs in the world, rather than little UK (while we still are the UK) by ourselves. We have lost influence in the world because of brexit and that will worsen when it happens. We therefore cannot influence global issues so much and have to follow what others with more influence say. We have to follow now, not lead. We are therefore less sovereign as a great deal of what we do is dictated by international agreements and reciprocity. We will have to differ. Your HofL argument holds no water, they do not make law, but are purely a debating shop to look at HofC law and send it back if they in their wisdom think it needs amending. At the end of the day the will of the HofC becomes law, (even if a bill starts in the Lords) and the HofL and monarch only rubber stamp. You are simply trying to convince yourself with the numbers game, like proportional representation. No one has invented the perfect democratic system and certainly the EU is a long way from democratic. Ironically the lack of Brexit action by governments since the referendum is an example of democracy where a majority view cannot be reached. If we had proportional representation in the UK, governments would rarely get things done, or political parties betray their support like the Lib Dems did in the Cameron coalition government, the party you say you voted for. The EU is actually ruled behind closed doors, by the German paymasters, and there is no auditing of how the people's money is spent. We are the 5th biggest economy in the world and hold lots of sway. In the EU Germany and her underling neighbours hold sway, believe me I have been on a European committee. The EU is on a march to ever closer union to a single state, where we will ultimately lose our finance industry and the pound sterling. Unlike you I want our country to be "free" to self govern like Australian, Canada, and the vast majority of countries in the world. Can you imagine an Australian agreeing to give up sovereignty, the way we have? Japan has just agreed a trade deal with the EU, naturally they have compromised, but do you think they have really given up sovereignty?
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 18, 2019 10:01:36 GMT
It does depend Indeed upon your circle but also on your stance towards BREXIT and possibly what you believe is your judgement on the " mood of the country" Remainers probably more than anyone else have been saying for 3 years that BREXIT is getting in the way of dealing with the " real" issues that the country faces...from their perspective...NHS , poverty...... others might include Culture clash and crime. The solution by Remainers , one way or another, was " Bollocks to BREXIT".... Boris's solution seems to be " let's get BREXIT done" The country chose Boris's way and in my opinion it was the only way to start to draw a line under the issue and start to move on. Bollocks to BREXIT was simply the unnacceptance of the result...to go down that root would have prolonged the agony. I think that Salop is right , the large Tory majority has enabled the country to start to move on....of course, now that we seem to be in this era where the entitled just can't accept decisions that they don't agree with,there are many who ste having difficulty moving on and regrouping to fight another day. It's one thing being disappointed with a result , it's another not accepting the result and keeping on and on and on about how wrong it is/ was ( however you dress it up) I accepted the EU referendum result and the election result, that's democracy. You say people should move on, but look at the media narrative. It's article after article about how Labour need to "soul search", and how "answers are needed". I would suggest they should move on by holding the current government to account like a fit and proper press should do. Time to look forwards not backwards. You don't get to move on if you're on of the millions of people in relative poverty, or homeless, or disabled and worried about your benefits though. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. We can, but then I'm guessing most on here are reasonably ok and are able to do so...... The election was a marker , a turning point. .... whether it leads to any real change for ordinary people is always an issue. The fight for rights and democracy always continues, daily. If there had been a landslide Labour victory then in 3 years time there would still be homeless on the streets and the health service would still be struggling. The period we are in now perhaps means different things for different groups... they are not interdependent...a period of humility and reflection for Labour ( and the Lib Dems, the EU , Brexit/ Reform party)...A period of action from the Tories and a period of " Let's See what you are going to do then, you'd better start to sort things out" from the electorate. I don't think keep playing the victim and fear over and over again works
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 18, 2019 10:09:03 GMT
It does depend Indeed upon your circle but also on your stance towards BREXIT and possibly what you believe is your judgement on the " mood of the country" Remainers probably more than anyone else have been saying for 3 years that BREXIT is getting in the way of dealing with the " real" issues that the country faces...from their perspective...NHS , poverty...... others might include Culture clash and crime. The solution by Remainers , one way or another, was " Bollocks to BREXIT".... Boris's solution seems to be " let's get BREXIT done" The country chose Boris's way and in my opinion it was the only way to start to draw a line under the issue and start to move on. Bollocks to BREXIT was simply the unnacceptance of the result...to go down that root would have prolonged the agony. I think that Salop is right , the large Tory majority has enabled the country to start to move on....of course, now that we seem to be in this era where the entitled just can't accept decisions that they don't agree with,there are many who ste having difficulty moving on and regrouping to fight another day. It's one thing being disappointed with a result , it's another not accepting the result and keeping on and on and on about how wrong it is/ was ( however you dress it up) I accepted the EU referendum result and the election result, that's democracy. You say people should move on, but look at the media narrative. It's article after article about how Labour need to "soul search", and how "answers are needed". I would suggest they should move on by holding the current government to account like a fit and proper press should do. Time to look forwards not backwards. You don't get to move on if you're on of the millions of people in relative poverty, or homeless, or disabled and worried about your benefits though. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. We can, but then I'm guessing most on here are reasonably ok and are able to do so...... If you could take the time to listen Claire Fox makes some good points about the state of socialism It's pointless to keep saying" We've got problems, the Tories are evil, get Labour in 'with no substance....of course you can keep saying it , meanwhile the Tories are in power
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2019 10:11:00 GMT
I accepted the EU referendum result and the election result, that's democracy. You say people should move on, but look at the media narrative. It's article after article about how Labour need to "soul search", and how "answers are needed". I would suggest they should move on by holding the current government to account like a fit and proper press should do. Time to look forwards not backwards. You don't get to move on if you're on of the millions of people in relative poverty, or homeless, or disabled and worried about your benefits though. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. We can, but then I'm guessing most on here are reasonably ok and are able to do so...... The election was a marker , a turning point. .... whether it leads to any real change for ordinary people is always an issue. The fight for rights and democracy always continues, daily. If there had been a landslide Labour victory then in 3 years time there would still be homeless on the streets and the health service would still be struggling. The period we are in now perhaps means different things for different groups... they are not interdependent...a period of humility and reflection for Labour ( and the Lib Dems, the EU , Brexit/ Reform party)...A period of action from the Tories and a period of " Let's See what you are going to do then, you'd better start to sort things out" from the electorate. I don't think keep playing the victim and fear over and over again works You've lost me fella who's playing the victim? I'm not, I'm fine. Life is ok in general. Others aren't though unfortunately. Telling them that we should all be positive and look forward doesn't really cut it......
|
|
|
Post by bathstoke on Dec 18, 2019 10:12:19 GMT
I said general mood. Mirror readers with purple hair are the minority I'll be honest I don't know anyone with purple hair, or many Mirror readers. A lot of people seem pretty deflated by the state of things from what I see..... I think the cold reality has already started to sink in...
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2019 10:12:22 GMT
I accepted the EU referendum result and the election result, that's democracy. You say people should move on, but look at the media narrative. It's article after article about how Labour need to "soul search", and how "answers are needed". I would suggest they should move on by holding the current government to account like a fit and proper press should do. Time to look forwards not backwards. You don't get to move on if you're on of the millions of people in relative poverty, or homeless, or disabled and worried about your benefits though. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. We can, but then I'm guessing most on here are reasonably ok and are able to do so...... If you could take the time to listen Claire Fox makes some good points about the state of socialism It's pointless to keep saying" We've got problems, the Tories are evil, get Labour in 'with no substance....of course you can keep saying it , meanwhile the Tories are in power I'll have a look when I get chance mate, not sure of the relevance to my point though?
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 18, 2019 10:15:57 GMT
The election was a marker , a turning point. .... whether it leads to any real change for ordinary people is always an issue. The fight for rights and democracy always continues, daily. If there had been a landslide Labour victory then in 3 years time there would still be homeless on the streets and the health service would still be struggling. The period we are in now perhaps means different things for different groups... they are not interdependent...a period of humility and reflection for Labour ( and the Lib Dems, the EU , Brexit/ Reform party)...A period of action from the Tories and a period of " Let's See what you are going to do then, you'd better start to sort things out" from the electorate. I don't think keep playing the victim and fear over and over again works You've lost me fella who's playing the victim? I'm not, I'm fine. Life is ok in general. Others aren't though unfortunately. Telling them that we should all be positive and look forward doesn't really cut it...... I don't mean you.... I'm talking about the Labour party message has largely been" We are all doomed, we are victims".....I am NOT saying that there are not massive inequalities and that people are not suffering in this country.... they are.... I feel that young people in particular are going to realise that they have been misled....but it seems to be the sum total of Labour's message..... have a listen to what the right winger Claire says On a simple level Labour just cannot grasp the concept that patriotism, the country and BREXIT is important to ordinary people.... rather they emphasises the past evils of the British Empire.... just an impression they leave us with bin my opinion
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Dec 18, 2019 11:05:02 GMT
You've lost me fella who's playing the victim? I'm not, I'm fine. Life is ok in general. Others aren't though unfortunately. Telling them that we should all be positive and look forward doesn't really cut it...... I don't mean you.... I'm talking about the Labour party message has largely been" We are all doomed, we are victims".....I am NOT saying that there are not massive inequalities and that people are not suffering in this country.... they are.... I feel that young people in particular are going to realise that they have been misled....but it seems to be the sum total of Labour's message..... have a listen to what the right winger Claire says On a simple level Labour just cannot grasp the concept that patriotism, the country and BREXIT is important to ordinary people.... rather they emphasises the past evils of the British Empire.... just an impression they leave us with bin my opinion People like Britishness. They like the Beatles, cricket greens and the WI. You can’t whitewash our history. Our culture does and has indeed evolved over many years and continues to this day. What we and no nation wants is what seems like a forced change that happens quickly. Perception is a powerful thing more powerful than facts at times. and it’s the perception that is fostered from government that influences many an opinion with joe public. The Perception of the EU amongst the working classes is of rules being made in Brussels that offer no benefit to them. Davis Cameron to be fair tried to explain this to them on his reform tour. They were not interested.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 18, 2019 11:16:01 GMT
I don't mean you.... I'm talking about the Labour party message has largely been" We are all doomed, we are victims".....I am NOT saying that there are not massive inequalities and that people are not suffering in this country.... they are.... I feel that young people in particular are going to realise that they have been misled....but it seems to be the sum total of Labour's message..... have a listen to what the right winger Claire says On a simple level Labour just cannot grasp the concept that patriotism, the country and BREXIT is important to ordinary people.... rather they emphasises the past evils of the British Empire.... just an impression they leave us with bin my opinion People like Britishness. They like the Beatles, cricket greens and the WI. You can’t whitewash our history. Our culture does and has indeed evolved over many years and continues to this day. What we and no nation wants is what seems like a forced change that happens quickly. Perception is a powerful thing more powerful than facts at times. and it’s the perception that is fostered from government that influences many an opinion with joe public. The Perception of the EU amongst the working classes is of rules being made in Brussels that offer no benefit to them. Davis Cameron to be fair tried to explain this to them on his reform tour. They were not interested. Exactly This trade unionist and Galloway get it
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Dec 18, 2019 11:22:37 GMT
People like Britishness. They like the Beatles, cricket greens and the WI. You can’t whitewash our history. Our culture does and has indeed evolved over many years and continues to this day. What we and no nation wants is what seems like a forced change that happens quickly. Perception is a powerful thing more powerful than facts at times. and it’s the perception that is fostered from government that influences many an opinion with joe public. The Perception of the EU amongst the working classes is of rules being made in Brussels that offer no benefit to them. Davis Cameron to be fair tried to explain this to them on his reform tour. They were not interested. Exactly This trade unionist and Galloway get it That’s the elephant in the room 99.9% of the entire population don’t give a fuck about skin colour We have moved passed the days of love thy neighbour. I think the entire establishment, media, government love pedalling the myth though as it keeps the confrontation and fear there
|
|
|
Post by The Drunken Communist on Dec 18, 2019 11:46:40 GMT
Exactly This trade unionist and Galloway get it
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2019 12:14:38 GMT
Exactly This trade unionist and Galloway get it The BBC reads like a parody news site these days.
|
|
|
Post by lordb on Dec 18, 2019 12:16:30 GMT
Yes, Johnson is generally disliked. Corbyn is hated. The rest are irrelevant All the news reports with normal people say they like Boris. don't kid yourself in the end the voters decided they disliked/mistrusted Corbyn more than they disliked/mistrusted Johnson
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 18, 2019 12:32:57 GMT
All the news reports with normal people say they like Boris. don't kid yourself in the end the voters decided they disliked/mistrusted Corbyn more than they disliked/mistrusted Johnson That as well. It did help that Boris did seem positive and Corbyn dour, may not be the main quality needed for a PM but it doesn't hurt
|
|
|
Post by bathstoke on Dec 18, 2019 12:38:35 GMT
don't kid yourself in the end the voters decided they disliked/mistrusted Corbyn more than they disliked/mistrusted Johnson That as well. It did help that Boris did seem positive and Corbyn dour, may not be the main quality needed for a PM but it doesn't hurt I suppose if you’re a one trick pony, you will enthuse about it...
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Dec 18, 2019 12:38:55 GMT
Exactly This trade unionist and Galloway get it That’s the elephant in the room 99.9% of the entire population don’t give a fuck about skin colour We have moved passed the days of love thy neighbour. I think the entire establishment, media, government love pedalling the myth though as it keeps the confrontation and fear there I agree with you generally and go to churches where there is a strong mix of many cultures. Conversely I was shocked to hear from a black Conservative politician that he was attacked for being black and in the Conservative Party and called a coconut. So we still have a long way to go.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 18, 2019 12:44:55 GMT
That as well. It did help that Boris did seem positive and Corbyn dour, may not be the main quality needed for a PM but it doesn't hurt I suppose if you’re a one trick pony, you will enthuse about it... Depends. If the pony is the one massive issue then it needs dealing with, focussing on. Obviously Labour's strategy wasn't considered to be dealing with it. I don't think Boris will prove to be a one trick pony. He has already been Mayor of London I'm not necessarily a Boris fan, that will depend upon where we end up with Brexit, but some of the criticism of Boris, before he has even started, smacks of desperation.
|
|
|
Post by bathstoke on Dec 18, 2019 12:53:18 GMT
I suppose if you’re a one trick pony, you will enthuse about it... Depends. If the pony is the one massive issue then it needs dealing with, focussing on. Obviously Labour's strategy wasn't considered to be dealing with it. I don't think Boris will prove to be a one trick pony. He has already been Mayor of London I'm not necessarily a Boris fan, that will depend upon where we end up with Brexit, but some of the criticism of Boris, before he has even started, smacks of desperation. But as you say, he hasn’t just started. He’s been around, waiting for his opportunity for years & his deeds have been plain to see...
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 18, 2019 12:56:45 GMT
Depends. If the pony is the one massive issue then it needs dealing with, focussing on. Obviously Labour's strategy wasn't considered to be dealing with it. I don't think Boris will prove to be a one trick pony. He has already been Mayor of London I'm not necessarily a Boris fan, that will depend upon where we end up with Brexit, but some of the criticism of Boris, before he has even started, smacks of desperation. But as you say, he hasn’t just started. He’s been around, waiting for his opportunity for years & his deeds have been plain to see... Yes I think that he has achieved the first part of his ambition, now it is up to him to deliver. ( i guess it's no different from Momentum seizing control of the Labour party and setting their agenda.... Perhaps the difference is that the Tories have an 80 seat majority)
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Dec 18, 2019 14:26:15 GMT
That’s the elephant in the room 99.9% of the entire population don’t give a fuck about skin colour We have moved passed the days of love thy neighbour. I think the entire establishment, media, government love pedalling the myth though as it keeps the confrontation and fear there I agree with you generally and go to churches where there is a strong mix of many cultures. Conversely I was shocked to hear from a black Conservative politician that he was attacked for being black and in the Conservative Party and called a coconut. So we still have a long way to go. We have a long way to go in everything. Nothing will ever be 100 percent great but racists in the uk are a very small minority. A minority that will always be highlighted but we need to remember it is indeed a small minority.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 18, 2019 15:42:46 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Clayton Wood on Dec 18, 2019 21:18:12 GMT
Just out of idle curiosity, does anyone know: if the 2016 Referendum result had been recorded by constituency vote, as in a GE, how the 650 'seats' would look?
|
|
|
Post by The Drunken Communist on Dec 18, 2019 21:30:56 GMT
Just out of idle curiosity, does anyone know: if the 2016 Referendum result had been recorded by constituency vote, as in a GE, how the 650 'seats' would look? By constituency By Party Lab: 148 Leave | 84 Remain Con: 247 Leave | 80 Remain By Region 9 Leave | 3 Remain By MP 160 Leave | 486 Remain fullfact.org/online/referendum-results-by-constituency/
|
|
|
Post by Clayton Wood on Dec 18, 2019 22:08:14 GMT
Just out of idle curiosity, does anyone know: if the 2016 Referendum result had been recorded by constituency vote, as in a GE, how the 650 'seats' would look? By constituency By Party Lab: 148 Leave | 84 Remain Con: 247 Leave | 80 Remain By Region 9 Leave | 3 Remain By MP 160 Leave | 486 Remain fullfact.org/online/referendum-results-by-constituency/ Cheers. By constituency 406 Leave, 242 Remain (63%/37%). Interesting. No wonder I only personally know 1 Remainer out of around 8 friends who I've discussed it with.
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Dec 20, 2019 11:25:42 GMT
So the Bill is starting today.
Straightaway Corbyn opposes it
The public have voted for Brexit repeatedley including last weeks overwhelming elections results
Labour are not learning
Their way forward should be to let it go through and then hold the government to account over rights etc
It seems there policy of getting back in is to hope it fails so they can clean up the mess
|
|
|
Post by PotterLog on Dec 20, 2019 11:30:49 GMT
Cheers. By constituency 406 Leave, 242 Remain (63%/37%). Interesting. No wonder I only personally know 1 Remainer out of around 8 friends who I've discussed it with. You have your friends organised into constituencies?
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 20, 2019 11:39:18 GMT
So the Bill is starting today. Straightaway Corbyn opposes it The public have voted for Brexit repeatedley including last weeks overwhelming elections results Labour are not learning Their way forward should be to let it go through and then hold the government to account over rights etc It seems there policy of getting back in is to hope it fails so they can clean up the mess What on earth would he support it? These piss taking charlatans have already reneged on workers right, environmental protections and of course the despicable abandonment of unaccompanied child refugees. All that is left in this tawdry bill is deregulation, a race to the bottom and a bonfire of workers rights. It is a filthy piece of legislation.
|
|
|
Post by Davef on Dec 20, 2019 12:07:52 GMT
"Mr Brexit", twenty years an MEP...and he doesn't know what the term third country means.
|
|
|
Post by Clayton Wood on Dec 20, 2019 12:10:30 GMT
Cheers. By constituency 406 Leave, 242 Remain (63%/37%). Interesting. No wonder I only personally know 1 Remainer out of around 8 friends who I've discussed it with. You have your friends organised into constituencies? Ha ha No! They are spread over 2 Conservative constituencies so given a 52/48% split you'd have thought there would a closer representation. Hence the question on constituencies. I was expecting you to question how I can claim to have 8 friends...
|
|
|
Post by GrahamHyde on Dec 20, 2019 14:42:09 GMT
So the Bill is starting today. Straightaway Corbyn opposes it The public have voted for Brexit repeatedley including last weeks overwhelming elections results Labour are not learning Their way forward should be to let it go through and then hold the government to account over rights etc It seems there policy of getting back in is to hope it fails so they can clean up the mess What on earth would he support it? These piss taking charlatans have already reneged on workers right, environmental protections and of course the despicable abandonment of unaccompanied child refugees. All that is left in this tawdry bill is deregulation, a race to the bottom and a bonfire of workers rights. It is a filthy piece of legislation. All things Conservative voters don't give a shit about, seemingly. "Brexit at any cost".
|
|