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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 3, 2017 16:50:57 GMT
I've just edited my post Dave, I think that's a better image.
If you look at that picture of Stan and the groundsman thawing the pitch, you'll notice that the snow completely covers the unterraced part of the embankment, but you can see some of the terracing despite the snow at the bottom. That picture is from late 1938.
Assuming that there wouldn't have been any construction during the war Dave, maybe this picture will narrow the window down for completion of the terrace to somewhere between 1946 - 1952?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 3, 2017 17:04:00 GMT
And this picture of Neil Franklin seems to suggest that the upper half might not have been terraced at this point, I can see crash barriers but I don't think that I can see terracing, not 100% certain though.
Thoughts?
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Mar 3, 2017 17:04:41 GMT
If you look at that picture of Stan and the groundsman thawing the pitch, you'll notice that the snow completely covers the unterraced part of the embankment, but you can see some of the terracing despite the snow at the bottom. That picture is from late 1938.
Assuming that there wouldn't have been any construction during the war Dave, maybe this picture will narrow the window down for completion of the terrace to somewhere between 1946 - 1952?
Hey is the Roy Brown on the back row of that photo any relation to Dougie Brown the old Mayor and Stoke fan. He looks the spit of him, although it might just be the hairstyle. |
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Mar 3, 2017 17:06:10 GMT
And this picture of Neil Franklin seems to suggest that the upper half might not have been terraced at this point, I can see crash barriers but I don't think that I can see terracing, not 100% certain though.
Thoughts?
The bottom bit looks very uniform so could be terraced but the top half looks rough almost grassed. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 3, 2017 17:09:55 GMT
Assuming that there wouldn't have been any construction during the war Dave, maybe this picture will narrow the window down for completion of the terrace to somewhere between 1946 - 1952?
Hey is the Roy Brown on the back row of that photo any relation to Dougie Brown the old Mayor and Stoke fan. He looks the spit of him, although it might just be the hairstyle.
Not sure but I found this cracking picture of him but I wasn't sure whether to post it because I'm not convinced that it actually is the Stoke End, it looks like it to some extent but I've always thought of it falling away at the back towards the Butler Street stand, where this doesn't.
What do you think?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 3, 2017 17:11:17 GMT
And this picture of Neil Franklin seems to suggest that the upper half might not have been terraced at this point, I can see crash barriers but I don't think that I can see terracing, not 100% certain though.
Thoughts?
The bottom bit looks very uniform so could be terraced but the top half looks rough almost grassed.
Yes agreed, we're narrowing the window down all the time for when the terrace was completed, we just need to be able to date this picture of Franklin.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Mar 3, 2017 17:14:59 GMT
Hey is the Roy Brown on the back row of that photo any relation to Dougie Brown the old Mayor and Stoke fan. He looks the spit of him, although it might just be the hairstyle.
Not sure but I found this cracking picture of him but I wasn't sure whether to post it because I'm not convinced that it actually is the Stoke End, it looks like it to some extent but I've always thought of it falling away at the back towards the Butler Street stand, where this doesn't.
What do you think?
Mate I've just googled it and they were brothers. He was the first black player to play for Stoke. What a great photo that is. And you're right that must be another ground as the Stoke End definitely sloped away. |
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Post by lagwafis on Mar 3, 2017 17:32:08 GMT
I can't find an exact date on the ones above unfortunately (beyond being 'turn of the century'). Going further back into the late 1800s, I'm not sure what corner this first (below) image is but apparently it's from about 1868 when the Vic was still an athletics ground. Apparently the second image is from a time when each goal was an open grassy bank with only a small stand on Boothen Road. I've got quite a few photos from old archive footage etc. which hasn't been posted on this thread yet. I'll have a go at uploading them + try to piece together a time line for the early 20th century from a couple of other books and videos.  
Sadly I don't think the top picture is from the Vic either mate.
If you look at the picture below, taken at the 1908 Olympic games, they are extremely similar but hey never mind we're bound to have a few stumbles along the way. Please keep any more coming.
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I was a bit dubious about them to be honest Paul (especially the painted image), so this helps shed some light - thanks. I spoke about both of them today and found out they're both from Stoke's Boothen Ends VHS release from 1997. Looks like whoever produced the documentary may have grabbed the images from other sources rather than the Vic as shown in the above image / painting. Shame we don't have genuine images from the Vic at hat time beyond knowing it was used for Athletics |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 3, 2017 17:46:25 GMT
Sadly I don't think the top picture is from the Vic either mate.
If you look at the picture below, taken at the 1908 Olympic games, they are extremely similar but hey never mind we're bound to have a few stumbles along the way. Please keep any more coming.
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I was a bit dubious about them to be honest Paul (especially the painted image), so this helps shed some light - thanks. I spoke about both of them today and found out they're both from Stoke's Boothen Ends VHS release from 1997. Looks like whoever produced the documentary may have grabbed the images from other sources rather than the Vic as shown in the above image / painting. Shame we don't have genuine images from the Vic at hat time beyond knowing it was used for Athletics
Yeah it's such a shame ... we still don't have an image at all of the unroofed Boothen with people in it, which considering it didn't take place until 1930 is quite surprising, we'll just have to keep looking! 
What was the source for your other images mate?
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Post by lagwafis on Mar 3, 2017 19:19:31 GMT
I was a bit dubious about them to be honest Paul (especially the painted image), so this helps shed some light - thanks. I spoke about both of them today and found out they're both from Stoke's Boothen Ends VHS release from 1997. Looks like whoever produced the documentary may have grabbed the images from other sources rather than the Vic as shown in the above image / painting. Shame we don't have genuine images from the Vic at hat time beyond knowing it was used for Athletics
Yeah it's such a shame ... we still don't have an image at all of the unroofed Boothen with people in it, which considering it didn't take place until 1930 is quite surprising, we'll just have to keep looking!
What was the source for your other images mate?
To confirm, the other pictures added are all taken from History of Stoke City / Screen grabs from The Boothen Ends VHS / DVDs (including the ones I'm now doubtful about). I'm still a bit unsure of some of the answers, though good we're all talking about it |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 3, 2017 19:34:55 GMT
Yeah it's such a shame ... we still don't have an image at all of the unroofed Boothen with people in it, which considering it didn't take place until 1930 is quite surprising, we'll just have to keep looking!
What was the source for your other images mate?
To confirm, the other pictures added are all taken from History of Stoke City / Screen grabs from The Boothen Ends VHS / DVDs (including the ones I'm now doubtful about). I'm still a bit unsure of some of the answers, though good we're all talking about it
Yeah great that we're talking about it chap, I'm pretty certain that all the other pictures are actually what they purport to be.
I must get myself a copy of the Boothen Ends DVD!
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Post by Davef on Mar 3, 2017 19:40:07 GMT
The bottom bit looks very uniform so could be terraced but the top half looks rough almost grassed.
Yes agreed, we're narrowing the window down all the time for when the terrace was completed, we just need to be able to date this picture of Franklin.
The Getty description has it down as April 14th 1949. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 3, 2017 19:46:01 GMT
Yes agreed, we're narrowing the window down all the time for when the terrace was completed, we just need to be able to date this picture of Franklin.
The Getty description has it down as April 14th 1949.
So it looks like we've got the Stoke End terracing being finished in either 49/50/51/52 then it would seem. 
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 3, 2017 20:42:10 GMT
Yes agreed, we're narrowing the window down all the time for when the terrace was completed, we just need to be able to date this picture of Franklin.
The Getty description has it down as April 14th 1949.
If we can agree it's fully terraced here then this 1951 picture of Leslie Johnston narrows it down to just three years. I'm not saying it definitely is, more hoping somebody can see something for definite that I can't.
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Post by Davef on Mar 3, 2017 20:50:06 GMT
The only reference to ground improvements between 1936 and 1960 in the SCFC encyclopaedia is in 1952 when the word "Welcome" was inlaid in the tarmac at the Stoke End and the ground was painted, so perhaps the terracing was completed that summer?
Oh, and the floodlights were installed in 1956.
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Post by Davef on Mar 3, 2017 20:53:36 GMT
I think we may have to consult some of the old farts in the cricket club tomorrow. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 3, 2017 21:23:53 GMT
I think we may have to consult some of the old farts in the cricket club tomorrow.
Yes good idea, I've messaged Mick Norcop but he hasn't got back to me yet.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 21:55:52 GMT
Pim's sign on the old Stoke End Stand.(Geo Pim's & Co) was a Local Brewery located in Copeland Street! Building demolished to accommodate the'D' road. Where about in Copeland street was the brewery and when did it close? Spoke to Alan Mansell Earlier this week..Author of lost liquor license of longton Copeland Street 1907 3 Boulton, Frederick Thomas, waggoner 5 Stanford, Thomas, financier's agent, Copeland House 5A Hackney, Win. B., earthenware dealer 7 Parker, Henry, mechanical engineer 9 Clay, -. Congregational Church Minister, Rev. J. A. Brown, B.A. Midland Railway goods warehouse 11 Showells Brewery Co., Ltd., brewers 11 Shaw, Harry, agent for Showells 13 Jebb, Thomas 15 Evans, Jno., Pike Inn (B.H.) Pim, Geo. and Co., brewers 
19 Evans, Edwin, brewer Keeling, Samuel and Co., timber merchants Anderson, Thos. Brighten, M.B.C.M., physician and surgeon Breeze, Joseph, joiner and builder 23 Breeze, John, insurance agent 25 Hind, Jervis, furniture remover 27 Underwood, William, fitter 29 Hobson, Isabella, Coopers' Arms (F.L.) Nicholls, F.. timber merchant Shorter and Sons, majolica manufacturers Brittain, William, engineer and machinery broker 31 Evans, Wm., compositor 33 Scott, Jas., chimney sweep 35 Parkes. Wm., ironworker 37 Knight, Francis Henry, night watchman 39 Birch, George Henry, green-grocer 41 Barrett, Chas., tent builder 43 Thorley, Reuben, funeral undertaker |
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Post by OldStokie on Mar 3, 2017 23:22:39 GMT
I can pretty much confirm that in about 1950 the Stoke End was half terracing (at the front) and cinder bank at the back. That's why everybody at the back used to try and get by or just behind the crash barriers. Us kids used to sit on the little wall at the front or on the ground in front of it and hope you didn't get hit by one of Harry Burrows's 'blasters'. He would regularly bost the net when he hit a casey. Harry Oscroft could too. Great thread Paul. Some fabulous memories.  M. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 3, 2017 23:31:50 GMT
I can pretty much confirm that in about 1950 the Stoke End was half terracing (at the front) and cinder bank at the back. That's why everybody at the back used to try and get by or just behind the crash barriers. Us kids used to sit on the little wall at the front or on the ground in front of it and hope you didn't get hit by one of Harry Burrows's 'blasters'. He would regularly bost the net when he hit a casey. Harry Oscroft could too. Great thread Paul. Some fabulous memories. M.
That's great info Mick, that means we've got the Stoke End finally becoming fully terraced in either 51 or 52!
Cheers
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Post by OldStokie on Mar 4, 2017 0:11:34 GMT
Great thread. I'd always thought of the Stoke End as an open terrace / bank until now. Wondering if 'The Boothen Ends' and 'History of Stoke City' VHS tapes will throw any further light on things. I'll give them another watch at some point.   These pics are puzzling me. Not sure it is The Vic because the surrounding areas were all terraced houses and waste land and not pot banks. The nearest pot banks were in the middle of Stoke and one by the side of the canal at Whieldon Road. The one with the althletes on the running track isn't The Vic. OS. Ps... think I've got it. The perspective is all wrong in my mind. The pics are looking towards Whieldon Road and you can see the pot bank top right centre of the picture above the railway sidings... So where the trees are would be right beside the River Trent.  |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 4, 2017 0:57:23 GMT
Great thread. I'd always thought of the Stoke End as an open terrace / bank until now. Wondering if 'The Boothen Ends' and 'History of Stoke City' VHS tapes will throw any further light on things. I'll give them another watch at some point. These pics are puzzling me. Not sure it is The Vic because the surrounding areas were all terraced houses and waste land and not pot banks. The nearest pot banks were in the middle of Stoke and one by the side of the canal at Whieldon Road. The one with the althletes on the running track isn't The Vic. OS. Ps... think I've got it. The perspective is all wrong in my mind. The pics are looking towards Whieldon Road and you can see the pot bank top right centre of the picture above the railway sidings... So where the trees are would be right beside the River Trent.
Yeah the perspective to me Mick, is that if you were sitting in the director's box of the Boothen Stand (or slightly to the right of it), you're looking over towards where the Butler Street corner meets the Boothen End.
Indeed the guys on the athletics track is a picture from the 1908 Olympics and hasn't got anything remotely to do with the Vic! 
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Post by OldStokie on Mar 4, 2017 9:37:54 GMT
Spot on Paul. That is exactly where the photographs would have been taken from. The aerial photo is amazing. I didn't realise the extent of the railway sidings between the canal and the railway line. They were mahoosive! That white area to the left of them is so white that it looks like it was once a saffruck where the white-ware would have been dumped. And now I know why we used to have to weedle our way across the Whieldon Road car park to avoid the puddles that were almost a foot deep. That area looks like bogland and it must have taken some work to create the training ground on it. But there's a certain nostalgic beauty in the diametric lines of terraced houses. You can clearly see the inverted Y shape where the club shop used to be. I'll keep that pic in mind when we've scored our third goal to beat M'boro 3-0 today. M. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 4, 2017 9:49:48 GMT
Spot on Paul. That is exactly where the photographs would have been taken from. The aerial photo is amazing. I didn't realise the extent of the railway sidings between the canal and the railway line. They were mahoosive! That white area to the left of them is so white that it looks like it was once a saffruck where the white-ware would have been dumped. And now I know why we used to have to weedle our way across the Whieldon Road car park to avoid the puddles that were almost a foot deep. That area looks like bogland and it must have taken some work to create the training ground on it. But there's a certain nostalgic beauty in the diametric lines of terraced houses. You can clearly see the inverted Y shape where the club shop used to be. I'll keep that pic in mind when we've scored our third goal to beat M'boro 3-0 today. M. Are they the same sidings that are still on the other side of the A50 from the Brit now? |
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Post by Davef on Mar 4, 2017 10:13:24 GMT
 Nothing definitive, but still a great shot of the Stoke End/Butler Street corner in January 1952. |
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Mar 4, 2017 10:21:02 GMT
Maybe it's age and a sense of nostalgia but I love old grounds
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 4, 2017 10:33:07 GMT
Nothing definitive, but still a great shot of the Stoke End/Butler Street corner in January 1952. Yes this has been a difficult puzzle to solve because most of the pictures to be found are (of course) of when there is people actually standing on the end, so it is impossible to tell if it's completely terraced yet or not. I do think we've got it down to two or three years at most though now. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 10:59:02 GMT
Sometimes I love this place. What a wonderful thread.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 1:51:11 GMT
1963?? from the 'league magazine'!  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 2:42:21 GMT
1927/28 Dick Johnson  |
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