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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 16, 2016 0:11:37 GMT
For those who struggle with the Sentinel site: Mark Bowen told Radio Stoke before kick-off: "We've got a fantastic record with Jon as our number nine and we know what he gives the rest of the team." That record really is pretty hot. Walters has been in that role on three occasions in the league this season after being called upon to replace Wilfried Bony. They have won two and drawn the other, scoring three and not conceding. Last season he was used 10 times at nine, only losing once. The Potters won seven of those; at home against Bournemouth, Chelsea, Aston Villa and Newcastle; and on the road at Villa, Southampton and Bournemouth again. It was tried six times the season before that and only ended in defeat away at Chelsea. That run included a win at Leicester, a hat-trick in a home pasting of Queens Park Rangers and another win at Villa. That's half a season's worth of fixtures that have garnered 41 points; 12 wins, five draws, two losses, scoring 25 and letting in 13. If only Stoke could keep that up for a full campaign and they'd be… well, Leicester won the title with 81 points last season.
That's a remarkable record for Walters. He is so good he appears twice in Stoke's top scorer list a couple of seasons ago! : www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/stoke-city/2014-15/top-scorers.html
So with stats like that ... why did we even bother bringing Wilfried Bony here then?
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Post by foxysgloves on Dec 16, 2016 10:50:19 GMT
For those who struggle with the Sentinel site: Mark Bowen told Radio Stoke before kick-off: "We've got a fantastic record with Jon as our number nine and we know what he gives the rest of the team." That record really is pretty hot. Walters has been in that role on three occasions in the league this season after being called upon to replace Wilfried Bony. They have won two and drawn the other, scoring three and not conceding. Last season he was used 10 times at nine, only losing once. The Potters won seven of those; at home against Bournemouth, Chelsea, Aston Villa and Newcastle; and on the road at Villa, Southampton and Bournemouth again. It was tried six times the season before that and only ended in defeat away at Chelsea. That run included a win at Leicester, a hat-trick in a home pasting of Queens Park Rangers and another win at Villa. That's half a season's worth of fixtures that have garnered 41 points; 12 wins, five draws, two losses, scoring 25 and letting in 13. If only Stoke could keep that up for a full campaign and they'd be… well, Leicester won the title with 81 points last season.
That's a remarkable record for Walters. He is so good he appears twice in Stoke's top scorer list a couple of seasons ago! : www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/stoke-city/2014-15/top-scorers.html
So with stats like that ... why did we even bother bringing Wilfried Bony here then?
Because we thought Bony would be an upgrade? Kind of puts into perspective how underrated SJW is by some Stoke fans when he's keeping a player of Bony's pedigree out of the ream.
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Post by kurt on Dec 16, 2016 11:27:20 GMT
Bony is an uprade, but the uprades sit on the bench
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Post by foxysgloves on Dec 16, 2016 11:50:37 GMT
Bony is an uprade, but the uprades sit on the bench I suppose there's one thing being an upgrade and another thing playing like an upgrade.
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Post by kurt on Dec 16, 2016 12:03:22 GMT
Bony is an uprade, but the uprades sit on the bench I suppose there's one thing being an upgrade and another thing playing like an upgrade. Of course, but why aren't the whole (expensive signs) "upgrades" like Bojan, Bony, Sobhi, Imbula or Joselu real uprades on the field?? Do you think, that is always the fault of the players? I think, no - they just don't get the trust of our manager, they need to show their real qualitiy. In my opinion the players i've mentioned are all better footballer than Walters, Whelan or Adam....thats what i think, just my opinion.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 16, 2016 12:07:55 GMT
I suppose there's one thing being an upgrade and another thing playing like an upgrade. Of course, but why aren't the whole (expensive signs) "upgrades" like Bojan, Bony, Sobhi, Imbula or Joselu real uprades on the field?? Do you think, that is always the fault of the players? I think, no - they just don't get the trust of our manager, they need to show their real qualitiy. In my opinion the players i've mentioned are all better footballer than Walters, Whelan or Adam....thats what i think, just my opinion. Trust of the manager? What's that go to do with your performance on the pitch over 90 mins unless Hughes decided to play Bony in goal!!! Bony has had plenty of opportunity to demonstrate that he's an "upgrade" but he seems to have decided that he couldn't be bothered
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Post by kurt on Dec 16, 2016 12:11:29 GMT
Of course, but why aren't the whole (expensive signs) "upgrades" like Bojan, Bony, Sobhi, Imbula or Joselu real uprades on the field?? Do you think, that is always the fault of the players? I think, no - they just don't get the trust of our manager, they need to show their real qualitiy. In my opinion the players i've mentioned are all better footballer than Walters, Whelan or Adam....thats what i think, just my opinion. Bony has had plenty of opportunity to demonstrate that he's an "upgrade" but he seems to have decided that he couldn't be bothered Bony more takes part in one game than Walters in three
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Walters
Dec 16, 2016 12:17:22 GMT
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 16, 2016 12:17:22 GMT
Bony has had plenty of opportunity to demonstrate that he's an "upgrade" but he seems to have decided that he couldn't be bothered Bony more takes part in one game than Walters in three So you think his performances to date are an "upgrade", if I was you I'd be careful when you next "upgrade" your car!!!
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Post by foxysgloves on Dec 16, 2016 12:18:17 GMT
I suppose there's one thing being an upgrade and another thing playing like an upgrade. Of course, but why aren't the whole (expensive signs) "upgrades" like Bojan, Bony, Sobhi, Imbula or Joselu real uprades on the field?? Do you think, that is always the fault of the players? I think, no - they just don't get the trust of our manager, they need to show their real qualitiy. In my opinion the players i've mentioned are all better footballer than Walters, Whelan or Adam....thats what i think, just my opinion. We see 90 minutes of the players a week. Hughes sees them day in day out. He's the best judge of who should play. It's up to the likes of Bony and Bojan to make themselves undroppable. They haven't.
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Post by stantheman on Dec 16, 2016 12:22:29 GMT
Bony has had plenty of opportunity to demonstrate that he's an "upgrade" but he seems to have decided that he couldn't be bothered Bony more takes part in one game than Walters in three Bony gets paid 3 x as much as Walters, so he should do
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Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on Dec 16, 2016 13:43:51 GMT
Not saying you're wrong, simply asking you to expand upon that if you wouldn't mind? How did Walters keep occupy four of their players? FWIW I wanted Hughes to replace him with Bony, swap Shaq for Bojan and have at least half an outlet. But I'm not the manager. Anyway, how did Walters occupy four players? We started with Arnie, Shaq, Allen and SJW up against their back 4. Once Arnie was sent off, Allen and Shaq dropped right back leaving SJW as one man countering their back 4. He stopped them building through the middle never giving any of them a second. He rarely lost a header and in the last 15mins was not only blocking their defenders but was also stiffling the runs of their midfielders. What I loved most was everytime we had a goal kick he would charge up the field, chest thrust forward straight into the face of one of their defenders ready to win the header from the long punt. It was an exceptional performance and the club should be collecting an extra £50 from everyone present last night who was blessed enough to see it. Diouf does exactly the same, only with far more pace, which would mean we had an out ball. Diouf over Walters any day of the week. The one massive bug bear of mine with hughes is the criminal under-use of Diouf the last 18mths.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 16, 2016 13:50:16 GMT
Of course, but why aren't the whole (expensive signs) "upgrades" like Bojan, Bony, Sobhi, Imbula or Joselu real uprades on the field?? Do you think, that is always the fault of the players? I think, no - they just don't get the trust of our manager, they need to show their real qualitiy. In my opinion the players i've mentioned are all better footballer than Walters, Whelan or Adam....thats what i think, just my opinion. Trust of the manager? What's that go to do with your performance on the pitch over 90 mins unless Hughes decided to play Bony in goal!!! Bony has had plenty of opportunity to demonstrate that he's an "upgrade" but he seems to have decided that he couldn't be bothered Yeah but be fair can you be bothered when you're on holiday?
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Post by nott1 on Dec 16, 2016 13:51:35 GMT
Time to put Sobhi on instead!
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Walters
Dec 16, 2016 13:51:48 GMT
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 16, 2016 13:51:48 GMT
Trust of the manager? What's that go to do with your performance on the pitch over 90 mins unless Hughes decided to play Bony in goal!!! Bony has had plenty of opportunity to demonstrate that he's an "upgrade" but he seems to have decided that he couldn't be bothered Yeah but be fair can you be bothered when you're on holiday? I think I heard he's fond of flip flops alright
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 16, 2016 13:52:35 GMT
Yeah but be fair can you be bothered when you're on holiday? I think I heard he's fond of flip flops alright The second bit definitely.
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Post by Dr Hesham on Dec 16, 2016 15:18:42 GMT
he can play as a substitute for 15-20 minutes not more than that he moves in the right place , but his skills are so bad
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Walters
Dec 16, 2016 15:20:52 GMT
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Post by samba :) on Dec 16, 2016 15:20:52 GMT
he can play as a substitute for 15-20 minutes not more than that he moves in the right place , but his skills are so bad would using john as a sub not waste his key attribute?
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Post by robwahlmann on Dec 16, 2016 15:24:30 GMT
I agree that he really shouldn't be our first choice up front, but he is still doing a decent job! A hard working true professional he is our Jon!
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Post by Dr Hesham on Dec 16, 2016 15:25:02 GMT
he can play as a substitute for 15-20 minutes not more than that he moves in the right place , but his skills are so bad would using john as a sub not waste his key attribute? I think Marko , Shaqiri , Bojan , Allen , Sobhi , Diouf are better than him as CF or Wing He is always fighting and we should respect that, but also Mr Hughes should respect his age and skills
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Walters
Dec 16, 2016 15:26:00 GMT
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Post by samba :) on Dec 16, 2016 15:26:00 GMT
Bony is an uprade, but the uprades sit on the bench did you just call bony an upgrade to walters?
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Post by samba :) on Dec 16, 2016 15:27:45 GMT
would using john as a sub not waste his key attribute? I think Marko , Shaqiri , Bojan , Allen , Sobhi , Diouf are better than him as CF or Wing He is always fighting and we should respect that, but also Mr Hughes should respect his age and skills I think we need to wait until sobhi has increased his strength.. How is stokes only bpl hat-trick scorer "not skillfull"
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Walters
Dec 16, 2016 16:34:48 GMT
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Post by heworksardtho on Dec 16, 2016 16:34:48 GMT
he can play as a substitute for 15-20 minutes not more than that he moves in the right place , but his skills are so bad Surely this is a piss take
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Post by djduncanjames on Dec 16, 2016 19:20:30 GMT
I think Marko , Shaqiri , Bojan , Allen , Sobhi , Diouf are better than him as CF or Wing He is always fighting and we should respect that, but also Mr Hughes should respect his age and skills I think we need to wait until sobhi has increased his strength.. How is stokes only bpl hat-trick scorer "not skillfull" 2 own goals and a missed pen in the same match? Oh the other hat-trick! gotta love Jon!
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Post by march4 on Dec 16, 2016 22:28:10 GMT
It is good to see the Sentinel showing SJW to be the most successful number 9 in English football.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 16, 2016 23:06:00 GMT
Of course, but why aren't the whole (expensive signs) "upgrades" like Bojan, Bony, Sobhi, Imbula or Joselu real uprades on the field?? Do you think, that is always the fault of the players? I think, no - they just don't get the trust of our manager, they need to show their real qualitiy. In my opinion the players i've mentioned are all better footballer than Walters, Whelan or Adam....thats what i think, just my opinion. We see 90 minutes of the players a week. Hughes sees them day in day out. He's the best judge of who should play. It's up to the likes of Bony and Bojan to make themselves undroppable. They haven't. It doesn't say much for Hughes's eye for a player, though if stalwarts like Whelan and Walters are better options than them. Joselu, Imbula, Bony etc must be bad buys if pretty average players keep them out of the side?
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Walters
Dec 16, 2016 23:16:22 GMT
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Post by foxysgloves on Dec 16, 2016 23:16:22 GMT
We see 90 minutes of the players a week. Hughes sees them day in day out. He's the best judge of who should play. It's up to the likes of Bony and Bojan to make themselves undroppable. They haven't. It doesn't say much for Hughes's eye for a player, though if stalwarts like Whelan and Walters are better options than them. Joselu, Imbula, Bony etc must be bad buys if pretty average players keep them out of the side? Perhaps. Or maybe Walters and Whelan are better than some seem to think. We've done alright when those two "Championship" players have played by and large.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 16, 2016 23:23:34 GMT
It doesn't say much for Hughes's eye for a player, though if stalwarts like Whelan and Walters are better options than them. Joselu, Imbula, Bony etc must be bad buys if pretty average players keep them out of the side? Perhaps. Or maybe Walters and Whelan are better than some seem to think. We've done alright when those two "Championship" players have played by and large. Oh. they have been cracking pros, no doubt. I think they are quite limited, though, and I think it's a slight on us that we have relied on them so heavily.
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Walters
Dec 16, 2016 23:35:00 GMT
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Post by metalhead on Dec 16, 2016 23:35:00 GMT
he can play as a substitute for 15-20 minutes not more than that he moves in the right place , but his skills are so bad You have to remember Walters isn't (and never was) a tricky winger. He's been a very useful player of the years and his longevity is mostly based on the fact he's been able to pop up with a few goals a season.
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Post by trigger on Dec 17, 2016 9:17:36 GMT
As much as I applaud Jon's contribution to the cause he's an opposition managers dream as he's not exactly going to stretch defenders, mind in saying that Morgan and Huth are slow/slower ??. For me I'd play Mame but I can see him being on the right side today with Shaqiri on the left.
It's poor that he's our go to striker.
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Post by pavel on Dec 17, 2016 10:15:03 GMT
For me it shows we are not progressing in the key areas we need to if we are to progress as a team or at least to stay where we are. We are becoming predictable once again and rely far too much on Arnie to create a bit of magic and provide the killer pass, though a lot of the time our go to forwards haven't the pace, touch or awareness to latch onto the ball and finish clinically. Shaq provides the same to some extent but much less consistently but I think it is too much to ask of your wingers to provide all the creativity in the team, their position on the field can often be nullified by good defences where there is no other threat and opposing teams are finding it easier and easier to set up against us and close us down. Our current midfield partnership creates very little, is bereft of pace and rarely drives us forward or gives opposing midfielders or defences anything to think about.
Walters, for all his qualities, i.e. doggedness, work ethic, etc was never blessed with pace or touch and he is definitely in decline now whatever stats we wish to bring up or selectively promote. Allen after his fine start in the advanced role is not a playmaker and his goals have dried up, a small purple patch when everything he touched turned to gold has gone. he is what he is, a central midfielder, box to box or holding as he has been all his career.
The teams we have picked of late wont let us down in terms of work ethic or backs to the wall rearguard actions but neither will they move us forward as a team and they certainly do not "fit" the current pressing ethos that is changing football and asking different questions of teams. I'm beginning to dread seeing the line-ups before the match, they seem to belong to a different era and so they should.
The "old guard" should not be shoe-ins, the go to players and I feel until they move on our progression as a team will stagnate, we need to be bold and put some trust in flair, pace and dynamism, we have done it before, and give some players more time and patience and if they are still found wanting replace them. We cant just return to the old guard all the time although they have been tremendous servants for the club. The core of our team is ageing and becoming pedestrian and in the premiership you have to adapt or die and you have to adapt quickly.
I think Hughes is a good enough manager to resolve our problems but I think our start this season and perhaps the end of last season has shaken him and his default now is to play safe, the boldness he had when we were playing at our best seems a distant memory and this perhaps filters down to the team. Our defence, midfield and forwards seem to be playing is isolation much of the time, there is little linkage and fluidity and a lack of movement, pace and cohesiveness, which is worrying.
Perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic and we are going through a period of retrenchment, a necessary "fall back" position before moving forward, yet these are not new issues and have been obvious for a while and as of yet not successfully addressed.
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