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Post by felonious on Dec 5, 2016 13:50:35 GMT
Interesting report and some decent discussions on 5Live today.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38200989
Segregation and social exclusion are at "worrying levels" and are fuelling inequality in some areas of Britain, a report has found.
Women in some communities are denied "even their basic rights as British residents", the Casey Review said.
Dame Louise Casey accused public bodies of ignoring or condoning divisive or harmful religious practices for fear of being called racist.
Communities Secretary Sajid Javid said he would study the findings "closely".
Dame Louise's review into the integration of minorities was commissioned by former Prime Minister David Cameron as part of the government's efforts to tackle extremism. 'Integration oath'
Among her recommendations were that immigrants could take "an oath of integration with British values and society" and schoolchildren be taught British values.
Her review said there was a sense that people from different backgrounds got on well together at a general level, but community cohesion "did not feel universally strong across the country".
She found "high levels of social and economic isolation in some places, and cultural and religious practices in communities that are not only holding some of our citizens back, but run contrary to British values and sometimes our laws".
Her report highlighted the plight of women in some Muslim communities, who she said were less likely to speak English and more likely to be kept at home.
"Misogyny and patriarchy has to come to an end," Dame Louise said, adding that public institutions must not fear being racist or Islamophobic.
Faeeza Vaid, from the Muslim Women's Network, said migrant communities should not be blamed for failing to integrate.
"We also see segregated white communities," she told the BBC's Victoria Derbyshire programme.
"Integration is everyone's responsibility."
Halima Begum, a Muslim woman from London, said she was "worried" that the report singled out Muslim men.
"There is a problem with men and I see it," she told the BBC's Asian Network. "We need to have an open debate without placing too much blame on communities."
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Post by salopstick on Dec 5, 2016 14:13:17 GMT
You cannot have a good immigration policy without a good inclusion policy. Somthing I've been saying for years.
You need inclusion for multiculturalism to work. If that needs forcing on all involved so be it.
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 5, 2016 14:31:00 GMT
There needs to be an adult education and literacy drive for women in the communities in question. Empower people with the tools to liberate themselves.
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 5, 2016 14:31:14 GMT
You cannot have a good immigration policy without a good inclusion policy. Somthing I've been saying for years. You need inclusion for multiculturalism to work. If that needs forcing on all involved so be it. As long as you expect tolerance from only one section of society multiculturalism can not and will not ever work, immigrants should be making efforts to integrate into the host nations culture etc. after all they are the people who made the decision to live in our country, all we hear is that we must be more tolerant why must we ?
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Post by Rick Grimes on Dec 5, 2016 15:02:10 GMT
You cannot have a good immigration policy without a good inclusion policy. Somthing I've been saying for years. You need inclusion for multiculturalism to work. If that needs forcing on all involved so be it. As long as you expect tolerance from only one section of society multiculturalism can not and will not ever work, immigrants should be making efforts to integrate into the host nations culture etc. after all they are the people who made the decision to live in our country, all we hear is that we must be more tolerant why must we ? What efforts would you like to see them make?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 6:36:05 GMT
As long as you expect tolerance from only one section of society multiculturalism can not and will not ever work, immigrants should be making efforts to integrate into the host nations culture etc. after all they are the people who made the decision to live in our country, all we hear is that we must be more tolerant why must we ? What efforts would you like to see them make? Learn English would be a good start, abandon all religious law courts that contradict British Law, denounce Muhammed as the tyrannical, child-raping, slave-taking war-mongering despicable monster that he actually was. Some nice ideas there already.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Dec 6, 2016 8:17:30 GMT
What efforts would you like to see them make? Learn English would be a good start, abandon all religious law courts that contradict British Law, denounce Muhammed as the tyrannical, child-raping, slave-taking war-mongering despicable monster that he actually was. Some nice ideas there already. Learn English is a good start but british law has to be abided by anyone who lives here whether they're christians, muslims, atheists or any other group. You're also going down a very dodgy path if you start enforcing on religious people who aren't breaking the law what they can and can't think about their own religion.
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Post by redstriper on Dec 6, 2016 10:01:44 GMT
I heard the interview with Louise Casey, she came across very well, rational, pragmatic and fair.
But record immigration in the last calendar year. 30+ years of weak government - Cameron typified it, every time there was a problem in any sphere he commissioned "far reaching review" which diffused the immediate tension and then kicked the results into the long grass.
Hence, I doubt anything will be acted upon.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 6, 2016 10:48:20 GMT
The figures only tell part of the story. When the ONS are challenged they admit that some of the figures are necessarily estimates and they are not clear on illegal immigration and the number of " students" who go on to say.In terms of numbers 315000 may be the official NET figure but in terms of impact upon culture the ONS say that gross immigration is actually 650000, although some of those who left would be "non-British" It isn't just an EU issue our politicians have been negligent in recogniding the "problem(?)" for years and it has now crept up on them www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 6, 2016 10:49:24 GMT
Bloody crapslinger pontificating about tolerance - excuse me while I throw up.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 6, 2016 11:04:52 GMT
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Dec 6, 2016 13:00:46 GMT
There needs to be an adult education and literacy drive for women in the communities in question. Empower people with the tools to liberate themselves. I saw Dame Casey respond to that point, and she said that educating the women is not the issue, it's educating the men (that enforce the intolerance and misogyny), that needs to happen. The problem with that of course is that they can use parts of their religion to justify their actions. It's as much about men's self interests as it is about religion itself.
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Post by ihaveadream on Dec 6, 2016 13:11:48 GMT
Bloody crapslinger pontificating about tolerance - excuse me while I throw up. Will Crapslinger ever integrate himself into the human race and become a human being?
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 6, 2016 14:32:50 GMT
There needs to be an adult education and literacy drive for women in the communities in question. Empower people with the tools to liberate themselves. I saw Dame Casey respond to that point, and she said that educating the women is not the issue, it's educating the men (that enforce the intolerance and misogyny), that needs to happen. The problem with that of course is that they can use parts of their religion to justify their actions. It's as much about men's self interests as it is about religion itself. Yes definitely men's self interest and cultural influence needs to be countered as well as religion. My point is just a personal observation from life in the ME. Where Muslim women have been empowered with literacy and education they certainly aren't backwards in coming forwards!
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 6, 2016 14:54:22 GMT
Thanks. The objections there would seem to mainly be about the linkage of the education programme to countering "radicalisation" and "separatism" which would probably be counterproductive or at least complicate the issue unnecessarily. I'm more concerned with the empowerment of women as a good in it's own right. If the programme is approached and marketed in this fashion then opposition to it can be shown up as merely reaction, a cultural hangover and "mens self interest". Why complicate things? There is more than one way to skin a cat after all... :-)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 15:09:59 GMT
You cannot have a good immigration policy without a good inclusion policy. Somthing I've been saying for years. You need inclusion for multiculturalism to work. If that needs forcing on all involved so be it. If you force inclusion the surely you would lose the multiculturalism as everyone would become the same.
Perhaps if they all came to a shared set of values you might even be called a country^. You could even adopt a shared religion^^.
THIS is our problem in Britain we are trying to be many countries in one land.
We have given up our values and our religion to allow people with money and/or cheap labour to come into our country and set up camp.
These people have NO intention of ever becoming a part of our society they seek only to milk the fat and create Satellites of their homeland in our land.
I'm neither racist or colour prejudice, but can you show me a factory in let's say Poland that has a 90% British work force or indeed a town in Pakistan that has a 95% British population.
I fail to see how you can force anyone to become British, however an oath of allegiance would surely be a starting block.
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Post by ihaveadream on Dec 6, 2016 17:12:19 GMT
There needs to be an adult education and literacy drive for women in the communities in question. Empower people with the tools to liberate themselves. I saw Dame Casey respond to that point, and she said that educating the women is not the issue, it's educating the men (that enforce the intolerance and misogyny), that needs to happen. The problem with that of course is that they can use parts of their religion to justify their actions. It's as much about men's self interests as it is about religion itself. Educating women is a wise idea. People living in a country where they cannot speak the language and know nothing of the law or their rights are especially vulnerable. Both the men and the women need to be educated regarding what is legal and acceptable and what is not.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 18:45:57 GMT
I saw Dame Casey respond to that point, and she said that educating the women is not the issue, it's educating the men (that enforce the intolerance and misogyny), that needs to happen. The problem with that of course is that they can use parts of their religion to justify their actions. It's as much about men's self interests as it is about religion itself. Educating women is a wise idea. People living in a country where they cannot speak the language and know nothing of the law or their rights are especially vulnerable. Both the men and the women need to be educated regarding what is legal and acceptable and what is not. While I fully agree on you point of educating women, or for that matter anyone who does not understand our language or our laws surely this should be done before they are allowed into our country not as some sort of a "Oh shit afterthought"
Here is a thought , perhaps we should stop trading with people who still live with barbaric , stone age laws and customs, stop turning a blind eye to the inequalities that occur in their societies just because they have money and we are greedy.
In short start practicing what we preach as opposed to being bought like a nation of cheap whores.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Dec 6, 2016 18:57:23 GMT
There needs to be an adult education and literacy drive for women in the communities in question. Empower people with the tools to liberate themselves. What another one? We spent thousands on this, even women only classes, because the men wouldn't let them into mixed classes, where College partners made a fortune. Adult Education budget was cut drastically around 2010/11 and this was no longer funded, so even this option was taken away. Not up to date with cureent funding but the fact is the women want to take part in education but the men don't want them to. I went to an inclusion forum at the Brit around 2009. A couple of very educated ladies got up and said they wanted to move out of areas like Shelton into the wider community. Our ex Lord Mayor said to them that this is not a good idea as they were stronger if they stayed within their communities.
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 6, 2016 19:32:12 GMT
There needs to be an adult education and literacy drive for women in the communities in question. Empower people with the tools to liberate themselves. What another one? We spent thousands on this, even women only classes, because the men wouldn't let them into mixed classes, where College partners made a fortune. Adult Education budget was cut drastically around 2010/11 and this was no longer funded, so even this option was taken away. Not up to date with cureent funding but the fact is the women want to take part in education but the men don't want them to. I went to an inclusion forum at the Brit around 2009. A couple of very educated ladies got up and said they wanted to move out of areas like Shelton into the wider community. Our ex Lord Mayor said to them that this is not a good idea as they were stronger if they stayed within their communities. I respect your professional experience mate. As I've said, it's just an observation based on my experience overseas. The empowerment of women is a powerful and cost effective agent for social change. It costs what it costs.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Dec 6, 2016 19:54:23 GMT
What another one? We spent thousands on this, even women only classes, because the men wouldn't let them into mixed classes, where College partners made a fortune. Adult Education budget was cut drastically around 2010/11 and this was no longer funded, so even this option was taken away. Not up to date with cureent funding but the fact is the women want to take part in education but the men don't want them to. I went to an inclusion forum at the Brit around 2009. A couple of very educated ladies got up and said they wanted to move out of areas like Shelton into the wider community. Our ex Lord Mayor said to them that this is not a good idea as they were stronger if they stayed within their communities. I respect your professional experience mate. As I've said, it's just an observation based on my experience overseas. The empowerment of women is a powerful and cost effective agent for social change. It costs what it costs. I agree! A friend of mine said the young Pakistani girls don't like Stoke on Trent as it's 25 years behind Karachi in attitudes. There's lots of worrying things that go on that no one seems to mention. She also said they always had problems with Imans when they came from Saudi being shall we say 'stricter' in their interpretations and they had to get rid of some. The Mosque choosing who would be supported as the candidates in local election, all Labour of course. It will take time to change, a long time. I was teacher training, at Primary level, and asked the 7 year olds what their aspirations were. The boys all had aspirations of going to University and work the girls sat in silence. when pressed they said houswives! 10 years later I saw one of the girls, at college and it was good to know she was preparing to go to university!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 20:31:41 GMT
I have been on the receiving end of unprovoked Muslim abuse by the mosque in burslem and further down in cobridge. My point is, i don't think some people want to integrate. Just because they moved here doesn't mean they want to intergrate. They are in a position now where they have multiplied in numbers in some areas and are segregating themselves.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Dec 6, 2016 21:09:25 GMT
Dodgy Saudi Arabian Imam's teaching a more extreme version of Islam in England than is taught in Pakistan! Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, it was from those Syrian 'refugees' in countries all over Europe. Still, so long as we don't come across as Islamophobic it's all good... Because afterall, our Islamaphobia turns Muslim's into terrorists, and we all know terrorism has nothing to do with the religion of peace.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 21:28:49 GMT
Learn English would be a good start, abandon all religious law courts that contradict British Law, denounce Muhammed as the tyrannical, child-raping, slave-taking war-mongering despicable monster that he actually was. Some nice ideas there already. Learn English is a good start but british law has to be abided by anyone who lives here whether they're christians, muslims, atheists or any other group. You're also going down a very dodgy path if you start enforcing on religious people who aren't breaking the law what they can and can't think about their own religion. A lot of Muslims don't abide by English law though, or at least not by British values when it comes to women's rights and whatnot. And I said nothing about force, the question was "what efforts would you like to see them make?". So with regards to my last response, lots of (former) Muslims have already made that denouncement, or have at least denounced the religion. In many communities in the country it is essentially analogous to one of us announcing to our family that we are attracted to four year old children. There are groups for Muslim apostates growing in number to support those who have been disowned by their families for abandoning the cult, or are in actual danger. So no, we can't use force unless we're prepared for a civil war and nobody in their right mind wants that but our government should certainly be doing what they can to aid those new organisations and to support young Muslims (or anyone who leaves any cult for that matter) who are facing hardship as a result of exercising their fundamental human right of freedom of religion, a human right that they didn't have access to as children btw. We need to show that it is the state position that Muslim views on apostasy are incompatible with the values of this country by officially supporting groups and charities that aid the persecuted. By doing this we will promote integration and enlightenment. It will also most likely "provoke" a backlash, but that's the reality of the situation that has been invited into our country by a very small number of elites without our consultation. Unless we want a civil-war we need to come up with peaceful solutions to the problems we're facing and accept the fact that many innocent people are going to die in the process of cleaning up the pollution.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 6, 2016 21:33:11 GMT
Thanks. The objections there would seem to mainly be about the linkage of the education programme to countering "radicalisation" and "separatism" which would probably be counterproductive or at least complicate the issue unnecessarily. I'm more concerned with the empowerment of women as a good in it's own right. If the programme is approached and marketed in this fashion then opposition to it can be shown up as merely reaction, a cultural hangover and "mens self interest". Why complicate things? There is more than one way to skin a cat after all... :-) At the time the back drop were the terror attacks in Europe and questions were asked about integration and radicalisation. Everyone thought more independence and confidence through better literacy was a good idea....... until Cameron mentioned it then it became a 'learn English or the Tories will deport you' story.
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 6, 2016 21:49:33 GMT
I have been on the receiving end of unprovoked Muslim abuse by the mosque in burslem and further down in cobridge. My point is, i don't think some people want to integrate. Just because they moved here doesn't mean they want to intergrate. They are in a position now where they have multiplied in numbers in some areas and are segregating themselves. Did you report this abuse to the police ?, I agree some Muslims do not have any intention of integrating, there are Sharia law courts operating in the UK a quick search will tell you that, as we have seen in the North west in particular gangs of Muslim paedophile men have been grooming and raping vulnerable young white girls, the authorities were very slow to react I wonder if the same would have happened if these were gangs of Christians roaming the streets raping Muslim girls. In short they hide behind their religion and it teachings to in some way justify there loathsome behaviour, Stoke-on-Trent has the third highest rates of radicalisation amongst Muslims in the UK is that acceptable ? Arranged marriages, female genital mutilation are illegal in our country yet it appears these practices are still going on within certain communities, we have communities within our community who have no intention of integrating with our society, this segregation is self imposed by the Muslim communities to protect their interests. Cue the usual left wing liberal abuse from the usual/unusual suspects who frequent this board, bring it on boys, girls and **************.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 22:39:25 GMT
I have been on the receiving end of unprovoked Muslim abuse by the mosque in burslem and further down in cobridge. My point is, i don't think some people want to integrate. Just because they moved here doesn't mean they want to intergrate. They are in a position now where they have multiplied in numbers in some areas and are segregating themselves. Did you report this abuse to the police ?, I agree some Muslims do not have any intention of integrating, there are Sharia law courts operating in the UK a quick search will tell you that, as we have seen in the North west in particular gangs of Muslim paedophile men have been grooming and raping vulnerable young white girls, the authorities were very slow to react I wonder if the same would have happened if these were gangs of Christians roaming the streets raping Muslim girls. In short they hide behind their religion and it teachings to in some way justify there loathsome behaviour, Stoke-on-Trent has the third highest rates of radicalisation amongst Muslims in the UK is that acceptable ? Arranged marriages, female genital mutilation are illegal in our country yet it appears these practices are still going on within certain communities, we have communities within our community who have no intention of integrating with our society, this segregation is self imposed by the Muslim communities to protect their interests. Cue the usual left wing liberal abuse from the usual/unusual suspects who frequent this board, bring it on boys, girls and **************.
No i didn't report it, i was 19 and never really thought about reporting it. I wouldn't have been able to give a clear description, it was a sort of keep my head down, say nothing and carry on walking. I don't really know much about them to be honest, i just take them as they come. If i have ever lived by a motto, it would be treat people as you would expect to be treated, even if it someone you don't like and not to lower myself to someone else's level.
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Post by woodstein on Dec 6, 2016 22:47:32 GMT
Due to such large numbers in more and more areas, segregation is bound to increase. Many districts that, not too long ago had plenty of good boozers now have none and thats worrying.
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 6, 2016 23:06:32 GMT
Due to such large numbers in more and more areas, segregation is bound to increase. Many districts that, not too long ago had plenty of good boozers now have none and thats worrying. Muslims are forbidden from partaking in the consumption of alcohol, drugs etc by their religion which of course they abide to as all good Muslims do !!!!!!! like FCUK they do, they abide by whatever bits of their religion they chose to interpret as gospel (no pun intended) then ignore the rest, the religion of peace my hairy arse.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Dec 7, 2016 9:38:24 GMT
Learn English is a good start but british law has to be abided by anyone who lives here whether they're christians, muslims, atheists or any other group. You're also going down a very dodgy path if you start enforcing on religious people who aren't breaking the law what they can and can't think about their own religion. A lot of Muslims don't abide by English law though, or at least not by British values when it comes to women's rights and whatnot. And I said nothing about force, the question was "what efforts would you like to see them make?". So with regards to my last response, lots of (former) Muslims have already made that denouncement, or have at least denounced the religion. In many communities in the country it is essentially analogous to one of us announcing to our family that we are attracted to four year old children. There are groups for Muslim apostates growing in number to support those who have been disowned by their families for abandoning the cult, or are in actual danger. So no, we can't use force unless we're prepared for a civil war and nobody in their right mind wants that but our government should certainly be doing what they can to aid those new organisations and to support young Muslims (or anyone who leaves any cult for that matter) who are facing hardship as a result of exercising their fundamental human right of freedom of religion, a human right that they didn't have access to as children btw. We need to show that it is the state position that Muslim views on apostasy are incompatible with the values of this country by officially supporting groups and charities that aid the persecuted. By doing this we will promote integration and enlightenment. It will also most likely "provoke" a backlash, but that's the reality of the situation that has been invited into our country by a very small number of elites without our consultation. Unless we want a civil-war we need to come up with peaceful solutions to the problems we're facing and accept the fact that many innocent people are going to die in the process of cleaning up the pollution. What laws do they break out of interest? Intergration is a two way street and whilst people like crapslinger (and there plenty like him) are hatefully aggresive towards muslims then there's going to be problems in getting people to integrate. I think that with time some of the more unpalatable attitudes of the muslim communities will soften and they will come more in line with our culture but it's goint to take a bit of time. For example when it comes to attitudes towards the LGBT community I'm sure that some (but not all) young muslims that are growing up in Britain will have a very different attitude to young muslims growing up in country such as Syria.
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