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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 27, 2017 14:12:45 GMT
So Starmer comes out with his big Brexit deal announcement. All tough and official sounding. Six tests laid down by Labour. If the deal doesn't pass them then it's a NO from Labour in 2 years time. 1) Fair migration system for UK business and communities.A fair immigration policy will be top of the agenda. Not many are calling to close the borders just control. 2) Retaining strong, collaborative relationship with EU.Already promised by all and Sundry. "We're leaving the EU not Europe" etc, etc. 3) Protecting national security and tackling cross-border crime.Already promised by the PM anti-terror, NATO etc, etc. 4) Delivering for all nations and regions of the UK.PM May is on a tour of the devolved Nations discussing a more United UK as I type. 5) Protecting workers' rights and employment protections.The Great Repeal Bill will automatically make existing EU law UK law including any that cover workers rights. 6) Ensuring same benefits currently enjoyed within single market.Doh !! Keir you were doing so well. We've already been told by the EU that they won't allow us to retain exactly the same benefits regarding the single market. Best you write to Juncker and Barnier and tell them that you'll scupper any deal that doesn't include unfettered access to the single market. So it'll be the EU's fault that Labour rejected the deal and everyone can blame the Conservatives And just to remind you Keir here's Theresa May's 12 point plan from a couple of months ago......... 1) Provide certainty about the process of leaving the EU. 2) Control of our own laws. Leaving the European Union will mean that our laws will be made in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast. 3) Strengthen the Union between the four nations of the United Kingdom. 4) Deliver a practical solution that allows the maintenance of the Common Travel Area with the Republic of Ireland. 5) Brexit must mean control of the number of people who come to Britain from Europe.
6) Protect rights for EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU. We want to guarantee rights of EU citizens living in Britain and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can. 7) Protect workers' rights. Not only will the government protect the rights of workers set out in European legislation, we will build on them. 8) Free trade with European markets through a bold and ambitious free trade agreement with the European Union.9) New trade agreements with other countries. It is time for Britain to get out into the world and rediscover its role as a great, global, trading nation. 10) The best place for science and innovation. We will welcome agreement to continue to collaborate with our European partners on major science, research and technology initiatives. 11) Co-operation in the fight against crime and terrorism. We will continue to work closely with our European allies in foreign and defence policy even as we leave the EU itself.12) A smooth, orderly Brexit. We believe a phased process of implementation will be in the interests of Britain, the EU institutions and member states.It pretty much means all May has to do is what she said she was going to do, and Labour will vote it through. Over to you Mrs May.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 27, 2017 14:55:38 GMT
So Starmer comes out with his big Brexit deal announcement. All tough and official sounding. Six tests laid down by Labour. If the deal doesn't pass them then it's a NO from Labour in 2 years time. 1) Fair migration system for UK business and communities.A fair immigration policy will be top of the agenda. Not many are calling to close the borders just control. 2) Retaining strong, collaborative relationship with EU.Already promised by all and Sundry. "We're leaving the EU not Europe" etc, etc. 3) Protecting national security and tackling cross-border crime.Already promised by the PM anti-terror, NATO etc, etc. 4) Delivering for all nations and regions of the UK.PM May is on a tour of the devolved Nations discussing a more United UK as I type. 5) Protecting workers' rights and employment protections.The Great Repeal Bill will automatically make existing EU law UK law including any that cover workers rights. 6) Ensuring same benefits currently enjoyed within single market.Doh !! Keir you were doing so well. We've already been told by the EU that they won't allow us to retain exactly the same benefits regarding the single market. Best you write to Juncker and Barnier and tell them that you'll scupper any deal that doesn't include unfettered access to the single market. So it'll be the EU's fault that Labour rejected the deal and everyone can blame the Conservatives And just to remind you Keir here's Theresa May's 12 point plan from a couple of months ago......... 1) Provide certainty about the process of leaving the EU. 2) Control of our own laws. Leaving the European Union will mean that our laws will be made in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast. 3) Strengthen the Union between the four nations of the United Kingdom. 4) Deliver a practical solution that allows the maintenance of the Common Travel Area with the Republic of Ireland. 5) Brexit must mean control of the number of people who come to Britain from Europe.
6) Protect rights for EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU. We want to guarantee rights of EU citizens living in Britain and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can. 7) Protect workers' rights. Not only will the government protect the rights of workers set out in European legislation, we will build on them. 8) Free trade with European markets through a bold and ambitious free trade agreement with the European Union.9) New trade agreements with other countries. It is time for Britain to get out into the world and rediscover its role as a great, global, trading nation. 10) The best place for science and innovation. We will welcome agreement to continue to collaborate with our European partners on major science, research and technology initiatives. 11) Co-operation in the fight against crime and terrorism. We will continue to work closely with our European allies in foreign and defence policy even as we leave the EU itself.12) A smooth, orderly Brexit. We believe a phased process of implementation will be in the interests of Britain, the EU institutions and member states.It pretty much means all May has to do is what she said she was going to do, and Labour will vote it through. Over to you Mrs May. Well her and the EU. I don't see much wrong with what May set out to be honest. I notice she slipped in the T word, transition at the end. Not quite the Tory Hard Brexit that's always quoted. The only sticking point is number 8 an "ambitious new free trade deal". The EU have already painted themselves into a corner with their no deal can be the same as being a full member bollocks. Over to you Mr Barnier :-)
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Post by followyoudown on Mar 27, 2017 15:12:32 GMT
It pretty much means all May has to do is what she said she was going to do, and Labour will vote it through. Over to you Mrs May. Well her and the EU. I don't see much wrong with what May set out to be honest. I notice she slipped in the T word, transition at the end. Not quite the Tory Hard Brexit that's always quoted. The only sticking point is number 8 an "ambitious new free trade deal". The EU have already painted themselves into a corner with their no deal can be the same as being a full member bollocks. Over to you Mr Barnier :-) Did Keir disclose he has been paid over a number of years£125k by one of the law firms trying to block brexit? I also read over the weekend that there is some obscure clause in WTO terms that will force the EU to give the UK a 10 year tariff free deal, pisser if true.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 27, 2017 15:13:05 GMT
It pretty much means all May has to do is what she said she was going to do, and Labour will vote it through. Over to you Mrs May. Well her and the EU. I don't see much wrong with what May set out to be honest. I notice she slipped in the T word, transition at the end. Not quite the Tory Hard Brexit that's always quoted. The only sticking point is number 8 an "ambitious new free trade deal". The EU have already painted themselves into a corner with their no deal can be the same as being a full member bollocks. Over to you Mr Barnier :-) How did the EU "paint themselves into a corner" - the UK decided to leave the EU, not the other way round. It's about time we started taking some responsibility for leaving the EU instead of shirking and expecting everyone to do us a favour. As for it being "bollocks" that you can't have the same deal as you had when you were a member - try cancelling your Stoke season ticket and see if the club let you in anyway on the opening day of next season
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 27, 2017 15:21:53 GMT
Well her and the EU. I don't see much wrong with what May set out to be honest. I notice she slipped in the T word, transition at the end. Not quite the Tory Hard Brexit that's always quoted. The only sticking point is number 8 an "ambitious new free trade deal". The EU have already painted themselves into a corner with their no deal can be the same as being a full member bollocks. Over to you Mr Barnier :-) How did the EU "paint themselves into a corner" - the UK decided to leave the EU, not the other way round. It's about time we started taking some responsibility for leaving the EU instead of shirking and expecting everyone to do us a favour. As for it being "bollocks" that you can't have the same deal as you had when you were a member - try cancelling your Stoke season ticket and see if the club let you in anyway on the opening day of next season It was after the referendum that the EU started putting down red lines about the single market but before negotiating had begun. Naive bollocks. We are taking responsibility. We're leaving the EU and have an ambitious free trade proposal. Canada have zero tariffs on 90% of their traded goods with the EU but no freedom of movement clause. We're not talking about alchemy.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 27, 2017 15:33:10 GMT
How did the EU "paint themselves into a corner" - the UK decided to leave the EU, not the other way round. It's about time we started taking some responsibility for leaving the EU instead of shirking and expecting everyone to do us a favour. As for it being "bollocks" that you can't have the same deal as you had when you were a member - try cancelling your Stoke season ticket and see if the club let you in anyway on the opening day of next season It was after the referendum that the EU started putting down red lines about the single market but before negotiating had begun. Naive bollocks. We are taking responsibility. We're leaving the EU and have an ambitious free trade proposal. Canada have zero tariffs on 90% of their traded goods with the EU but no freedom of movement clause. We're not talking about alchemy. It was obvious long, long before the referendum that access to the Single Market on our existing terms would mean adhering to the EUs core regulations [freedom of movements etc]. Anyone who didn't realise this was, in your own words, naive. We do have a free trade proposal - I'm not convinced it's that ambitious but we'll see - and we'll have to wait until we know how far the proposal will take us. If we can get close to 90% like Canada I imagine it would make most people happy.
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Post by numpty40 on Mar 27, 2017 18:35:55 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 27, 2017 19:01:10 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 27, 2017 19:04:29 GMT
So Starmer comes out with his big Brexit deal announcement. All tough and official sounding. Six tests laid down by Labour. If the deal doesn't pass them then it's a NO from Labour in 2 years time. 1) Fair migration system for UK business and communities.A fair immigration policy will be top of the agenda. Not many are calling to close the borders just control. 2) Retaining strong, collaborative relationship with EU.Already promised by all and Sundry. "We're leaving the EU not Europe" etc, etc. 3) Protecting national security and tackling cross-border crime.Already promised by the PM anti-terror, NATO etc, etc. 4) Delivering for all nations and regions of the UK.PM May is on a tour of the devolved Nations discussing a more United UK as I type. 5) Protecting workers' rights and employment protections.The Great Repeal Bill will automatically make existing EU law UK law including any that cover workers rights. 6) Ensuring same benefits currently enjoyed within single market.Doh !! Keir you were doing so well. We've already been told by the EU that they won't allow us to retain exactly the same benefits regarding the single market. Best you write to Juncker and Barnier and tell them that you'll scupper any deal that doesn't include unfettered access to the single market. So it'll be the EU's fault that Labour rejected the deal and everyone can blame the Conservatives And just to remind you Keir here's Theresa May's 12 point plan from a couple of months ago......... 1) Provide certainty about the process of leaving the EU. 2) Control of our own laws. Leaving the European Union will mean that our laws will be made in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast. 3) Strengthen the Union between the four nations of the United Kingdom. 4) Deliver a practical solution that allows the maintenance of the Common Travel Area with the Republic of Ireland. 5) Brexit must mean control of the number of people who come to Britain from Europe.
6) Protect rights for EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU. We want to guarantee rights of EU citizens living in Britain and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can. 7) Protect workers' rights. Not only will the government protect the rights of workers set out in European legislation, we will build on them. 8) Free trade with European markets through a bold and ambitious free trade agreement with the European Union.9) New trade agreements with other countries. It is time for Britain to get out into the world and rediscover its role as a great, global, trading nation. 10) The best place for science and innovation. We will welcome agreement to continue to collaborate with our European partners on major science, research and technology initiatives. 11) Co-operation in the fight against crime and terrorism. We will continue to work closely with our European allies in foreign and defence policy even as we leave the EU itself.12) A smooth, orderly Brexit. We believe a phased process of implementation will be in the interests of Britain, the EU institutions and member states.Well as she's been caught out lying on numerous occasions, I'm not holding my breath. This has all the hallmarks of a total disaster written all over it. Oh and Farage has just said he'll leave if brexit makes things worse.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 27, 2017 19:11:07 GMT
Jesus wept....even her.
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Post by numpty40 on Mar 27, 2017 19:21:16 GMT
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Post by capto on Mar 27, 2017 19:57:54 GMT
Written in January by a fully paid up brexit supporter
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 27, 2017 20:28:50 GMT
Jesus wept....even her. “The President of the Commission, Mr. Delors, said at a press conference the other day that he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the Community, he wanted the Commission to be the Executive and he wanted the Council of Ministers to be the Senate. No. No. No.” - PM Thatcher, 1990.
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Post by numpty40 on Mar 27, 2017 20:29:11 GMT
Written in January by a fully paid up brexit supporter Exactly, the other article was written by Dan Roberts who is a fully paid up remain supporter.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 27, 2017 20:30:19 GMT
Jesus wept....even her. “The President of the Commission, Mr. Delors, said at a press conference the other day that he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the Community, he wanted the Commission to be the Executive and he wanted the Council of Ministers to be the Senate. No. No. No.” Poor attempt at yet another dodge Rodge...admit it, we were lied to...big time.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 27, 2017 20:32:31 GMT
Written in January by a fully paid up brexit supporter Exactly, the other article was written by Dan Roberts who is a fully paid up remain supporter. The article is based on independent research. I assume you're a leave voter? Let's hope your'e right about all this because I'm genuinely terrified if you and it all goes wrong.
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Post by numpty40 on Mar 27, 2017 20:41:46 GMT
Exactly, the other article was written by Dan Roberts who is a fully paid up remain supporter. The article is based on independent research. I assume you're a leave voter? Let's hope your'e right about all this because I'm genuinely terrified if you and it all goes wrong. I'm surprised that you are quoting Margaret Thatcher to strengthen your argument
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 27, 2017 20:46:39 GMT
“The President of the Commission, Mr. Delors, said at a press conference the other day that he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the Community, he wanted the Commission to be the Executive and he wanted the Council of Ministers to be the Senate. No. No. No.” Poor attempt at yet another dodge Rodge...admit it, we were lied to...big time. So when you say "we" are you talking about the remain voters as well? Or just us Leavers
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 27, 2017 21:00:56 GMT
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Post by edaboagenawo on Mar 27, 2017 22:05:05 GMT
How did the EU "paint themselves into a corner" - the UK decided to leave the EU, not the other way round. It's about time we started taking some responsibility for leaving the EU instead of shirking and expecting everyone to do us a favour. As for it being "bollocks" that you can't have the same deal as you had when you were a member - try cancelling your Stoke season ticket and see if the club let you in anyway on the opening day of next season It was after the referendum that the EU started putting down red lines about the single market but before negotiating had begun. Naive bollocks. We are taking responsibility. We're leaving the EU and have an ambitious free trade proposal. Canada have zero tariffs on 90% of their traded goods with the EU but no freedom of movement clause. We're not talking about alchemy. Canada's deal is more like 98% tariff-free on goods and the UK as a much bigger economy should be able to do even better. But 80% of our exports are in services not goods so 'passporting' rights will be a lot trickier for our negotiators.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 28, 2017 5:08:11 GMT
It was after the referendum that the EU started putting down red lines about the single market but before negotiating had begun. Naive bollocks. We are taking responsibility. We're leaving the EU and have an ambitious free trade proposal. Canada have zero tariffs on 90% of their traded goods with the EU but no freedom of movement clause. We're not talking about alchemy. It was obvious long, long before the referendum that access to the Single Market on our existing terms would mean adhering to the EUs core regulations [freedom of movements etc]. Anyone who didn't realise this was, in your own words, naive. We do have a free trade proposal - I'm not convinced it's that ambitious but we'll see - and we'll have to wait until we know how far the proposal will take us. If we can get close to 90% like Canada I imagine it would make most people happy. So does your logic follow that if it was "obvious" that access on existing terms to the SM was linked to FoM and I voted to change the FoM clause then I was fully aware of the possibility there would be changes to the SM situation?? Because I've lost count of the number of times Clegg, Soubry et al have told us we didn't know what we were voting for.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 28, 2017 5:33:18 GMT
Well it looks like they did :-) This is a pre-negotiation, worst case scenario piece.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 28, 2017 5:34:22 GMT
It was after the referendum that the EU started putting down red lines about the single market but before negotiating had begun. Naive bollocks. We are taking responsibility. We're leaving the EU and have an ambitious free trade proposal. Canada have zero tariffs on 90% of their traded goods with the EU but no freedom of movement clause. We're not talking about alchemy. Canada's deal is more like 98% tariff-free on goods and the UK as a much bigger economy should be able to do even better. But 80% of our exports are in services not goods so 'passporting' rights will be a lot trickier for our negotiators. Are services even subject to WTO tariffs?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 5:42:33 GMT
“The President of the Commission, Mr. Delors, said at a press conference the other day that he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the Community, he wanted the Commission to be the Executive and he wanted the Council of Ministers to be the Senate. No. No. No.” Poor attempt at yet another dodge Rodge...admit it, we were lied to...big time. Speaking of being lied to. How come all these big bollocks leaders in Brussels one minute smile and say they are happy for us to leave, the next they are running around, sweating like a fuck pig, pulling out all the stops to keep us in? Can the eu move forward without Britain?....I think the answer is pretty much No, it can't . At the end of the day...We hold the cards Don't let the europhiles tell you different. Once in a lifetime referendum done and dusted U.K. To leave the eu Blair clegg ashdown hesletine sturgeon are crippling their own country lock the fuckers away for good
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 28, 2017 6:10:01 GMT
It was obvious long, long before the referendum that access to the Single Market on our existing terms would mean adhering to the EUs core regulations [freedom of movements etc]. Anyone who didn't realise this was, in your own words, naive. We do have a free trade proposal - I'm not convinced it's that ambitious but we'll see - and we'll have to wait until we know how far the proposal will take us. If we can get close to 90% like Canada I imagine it would make most people happy. So does your logic follow that if it was "obvious" that access on existing terms to the SM was linked to FoM and I voted to change the FoM clause then I was fully aware of the possibility there would be changes to the SM situation?? Because I've lost count of the number of times Clegg, Soubry et al have told us we didn't know what we were voting for. We were all fully aware that the SM situation MAY change with a vote to leave the EU. I'm not sure what Clegg and Soubry specifically have said, but my opinion would be that we don't really know if it was the 'will of the people' to leave the SM because that wasn't what they were asked. That decision has been made by May/the Tories who are hiding behind the 'will of the people' argument.
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Post by Billy the kid on Mar 28, 2017 7:40:00 GMT
So does your logic follow that if it was "obvious" that access on existing terms to the SM was linked to FoM and I voted to change the FoM clause then I was fully aware of the possibility there would be changes to the SM situation?? Because I've lost count of the number of times Clegg, Soubry et al have told us we didn't know what we were voting for. We were all fully aware that the SM situation MAY change with a vote to leave the EU. I'm not sure what Clegg and Soubry specifically have said, but my opinion would be that we don't really know if it was the 'will of the people' to leave the SM because that wasn't what they were asked. That decision has been made by May/the Tories who are hiding behind the 'will of the people' argument. I think the will of the people pretty much said get us out of the EU and everything connected to it. The SM question arose imo from the clutching at straws in an attempt to derail the process on a technicality.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 28, 2017 7:57:20 GMT
So does your logic follow that if it was "obvious" that access on existing terms to the SM was linked to FoM and I voted to change the FoM clause then I was fully aware of the possibility there would be changes to the SM situation?? Because I've lost count of the number of times Clegg, Soubry et al have told us we didn't know what we were voting for. We were all fully aware that the SM situation MAY change with a vote to leave the EU. I'm not sure what Clegg and Soubry specifically have said, but my opinion would be that we don't really know if it was the 'will of the people' to leave the SM because that wasn't what they were asked. That decision has been made by May/the Tories who are hiding behind the 'will of the people' argument. So we were all fully aware the the SM situation may change if we vote Leave. We voted Leave. But now you're saying that leaving the SM wasn't the will of people because that wasn't the actual question on the ballot paper. Righto. Would have been a bloody long ballot paper if we'd put every possible outcome on there. I though that's what the 2 year debate was about?
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 28, 2017 8:24:12 GMT
We were all fully aware that the SM situation MAY change with a vote to leave the EU. I'm not sure what Clegg and Soubry specifically have said, but my opinion would be that we don't really know if it was the 'will of the people' to leave the SM because that wasn't what they were asked. That decision has been made by May/the Tories who are hiding behind the 'will of the people' argument. So we were all fully aware the the SM situation may change if we vote Leave. We voted Leave. But now you're saying that leaving the SM wasn't the will of people because that wasn't the actual question on the ballot paper. Righto. Would have been a bloody long ballot paper if we'd put every possible outcome on there. I though that's what the 2 year debate was about? You're completely right - the two year discussions are about the single market (and a thousand other things). That's why, if we leave the single market, it's a government decision and not the 'will of the people'.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Mar 28, 2017 8:29:41 GMT
So we were all fully aware the the SM situation may change if we vote Leave. We voted Leave. But now you're saying that leaving the SM wasn't the will of people because that wasn't the actual question on the ballot paper. Righto. Would have been a bloody long ballot paper if we'd put every possible outcome on there. I though that's what the 2 year debate was about? You're completely right - the two year discussions are about the single market (and a thousand other things). That's why, if we leave the single market, it's a government decision and not the 'will of the people'. But, 'roge' there wasn't even one alternative put on the ballot paper! 'riproaringpotter' is correct that the government has abrogated a general 'Leave' vote to mean whatever it suits them!
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Post by Billy the kid on Mar 28, 2017 8:33:37 GMT
So we were all fully aware the the SM situation may change if we vote Leave. We voted Leave. But now you're saying that leaving the SM wasn't the will of people because that wasn't the actual question on the ballot paper. Righto. Would have been a bloody long ballot paper if we'd put every possible outcome on there. I though that's what the 2 year debate was about? You're completely right - the two year discussions are about the single market (and a thousand other things). That's why, if we leave the single market, it's a government decision and not the 'will of the people'. Again that is clutching at straws, not much point in going over old arguments, however it was made clear by the remain camp AND the EU that single market access and restrictions in free movement were connected and you can't expect to have one and not the other. So no it was the will of the people.
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