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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2016 0:59:14 GMT
I'm always thankful for small mercies ... Funnily enough ....Ilda said the same ...ooooerrr. Obviously an astute lady .
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Post by Timmypotter on Apr 23, 2016 5:17:11 GMT
My parents are both retired teachers who were lucky enough to have started in the 70s. My other half's parents are also retired teachers who started in the late 60s (one of whom retired on a full pension in his early 50s). All 4 of them recognise that they're incredibly lucky and receive a level of benefit that no one else will ever get in the future. The one who retired young is on course to have spent as much time pensioned off as in work. That isn't what a pension is meant to be for and the baby boomers have a lot to answer for. The price of an annuity providing similar levels of benefit to those my dad gets would cost well over half a million quid. If you wanted to build in a yearly increase (which public sector pensioners get as a matter of course) then it'd be even more. The biggest problem has been one of actuarial practice though. A failure to recognise the rate of increase in life expectancy has shafted future generations. Regulations introduced in the 80s to ensure schemes weren't carrying too large a surplus also encouraged them to have huge giveaways to those lucky enough to be retiring in the right time and place. This has pretty much destroyed private sector defined benefit schemes (thanks Maggie). So, my pension planning now involves keeping those 4 juicy public sector pensions my parents are drawing in payment for as long as possible. I've signed them all up to a strict regime of exercise and healthy diet, so hopefully they can all make at least 90
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Post by trentvale68 on Apr 23, 2016 14:53:51 GMT
My parents are both retired teachers who were lucky enough to have started in the 70s. My other half's parents are also retired teachers who started in the late 60s (one of whom retired on a full pension in his early 50s). All 4 of them recognise that they're incredibly lucky and receive a level of benefit that no one else will ever get in the future. The one who retired young is on course to have spent as much time pensioned off as in work. That isn't what a pension is meant to be for and the baby boomers have a lot to answer for. The price of an annuity providing similar levels of benefit to those my dad gets would cost well over half a million quid. If you wanted to build in a yearly increase (which public sector pensioners get as a matter of course) then it'd be even more. The biggest problem has been one of actuarial practice though. A failure to recognise the rate of increase in life expectancy has shafted future generations. Regulations introduced in the 80s to ensure schemes weren't carrying too large a surplus also encouraged them to have huge giveaways to those lucky enough to be retiring in the right time and place. This has pretty much destroyed private sector defined benefit schemes (thanks Maggie). So, my pension planning now involves keeping those 4 juicy public sector pensions my parents are drawing in payment for as long as possible. I've signed them all up to a strict regime of exercise and healthy diet, so hopefully they can all make at least 90 Sounds like a good plan my mate
Its worth its weight in gold just to have your folks around still regardless of money; Its horrible when theyre gone.
You keep em on that lifestyle long as you can
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Post by 4372 on Apr 24, 2016 0:09:23 GMT
And I will continue to support all those who work in Public Services. The talk of "bloated pensions" is nothing more than a cheap and nasty slur. I typed the words "bloated pensions" into Google. Within the UK the words were mentioned in association with the Daily Mail,the Telegraph, and The Spectator. Wow, what a surprise. The idea that those who chose a career in Public Service are just after early retirement and a pension is crass.
I will repeat that public servants also pay their taxes. It is an old canard, and it is insinuated in this thread, that the taxpayer is only to be found in the private sector. And there have been many instances where "the taxpayer" has had to fund private sector disasters. Who else pays for redundancies when firms collapse,and there is no money in the company pot? As taxpayers, we in the Public Services also had to pay to help prop up the Banks in 2008. And doubtless we as taxpayers will be paying for the PFI funded Edinburgh schools fiasco.
Those who work in the Private Sector have my sympathy in relation to their own pension predicament,and they would have my support in any attempt to improve their own position. But to come on here and try to denigrate the career choices and the lifestyle decisions of other people is grossly unfair.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Apr 24, 2016 11:00:44 GMT
Nobody has "denigrated the career and lifestyle decisions" of anyone on this thread.
That the bailout of the of the banks, or the redundancy payments to people, or the tax that big companies pay, or scandalous PFI schemes have to do with the completely separate issue of unfair pensions to a minority of workers is a bit beyond me I'm afraid.
You keep bringing up these links that you don't agree with, but whilst your busy googling why not find a link or two that actually show how these pension schemes are properly funded?
Oh and as I've said before the only thing that's "grossly unfair" is people in this country paying for others pensions of which they have zero chance of buying for themselves.
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Pensions
Apr 24, 2016 11:20:27 GMT
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Post by Skankmonkey on Apr 24, 2016 11:20:27 GMT
I imagine the motto of the Right "Life isn't fair, so get over it" applies here.
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Pensions
Apr 24, 2016 12:50:40 GMT
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Post by manmarking on Apr 24, 2016 12:50:40 GMT
Oh and as I've said before the only thing that's "grossly unfair" is people in this country paying for others pensions of which they have zero chance of buying for themselves. Individual taxpayers pay for things they have zero chance of buying themselves all the time. Should those of us who haven't the grades to go to medical school therefore be allowed to stop paying for doctors in the NHS? What about fighter pilots? I'll never be one because amongst other things my eyesight isn't good enough. Can I be exempted from paying for them please? And The Forth Bridge - it's grossly unfair that I have no chance of ever erecting a scale replica in my terraced house back garden so can I stop paying for all the painting please?
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Post by 4372 on Apr 24, 2016 19:17:51 GMT
Probably my last shout on this thread:
I think referring to the salary package of public service workers as "bloated pensions" is to denigrate the contribution to society of many thousands of Health Care workers, Emergency Service workers, Civil Servants, Teachers and all. You may regard such pensions as bloated. I regard mine as hard worked for, and promised to me many years ago.
The point about taxpayers rescuing the banks, and the scandalous PFI issue, as you correctly call it, is that we all have to pay taxes for things we do not appreciate, as others have commented. Private Industry has had to be rescued by the taxpayer before, and it will happen again. I am sure we could both make a list of areas where money could be saved. In theory this would reduce your own taxation level.
I did look for some other links for you, and they are to be found. I think you would regard them as biased in favour of my own point of view, and you would be right. Clearly we are not going to agree.
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Pensions
Apr 25, 2016 10:20:51 GMT
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Post by britsabroad on Apr 25, 2016 10:20:51 GMT
Oh and as I've said before the only thing that's "grossly unfair" is people in this country paying for others pensions of which they have zero chance of buying for themselves. Individual taxpayers pay for things they have zero chance of buying themselves all the time. Should those of us who haven't the grades to go to medical school therefore be allowed to stop paying for doctors in the NHS? What about fighter pilots? I'll never be one because amongst other things my eyesight isn't good enough. Can I be exempted from paying for them please? And The Forth Bridge - it's grossly unfair that I have no chance of ever erecting a scale replica in my terraced house back garden so can I stop paying for all the painting please? Eh? You go to the doctors whenever you want and the RAF protects you 24/7. Or your aliases could.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 10:40:14 GMT
I haven't read the report, and I don't need to. The fact that it was published by a right wing think tank tells me enough about its status. The Telegraph and The Adam Smith Institute are both in favour of cutting down the role of the state. Plenty of people have chosen public service as their career, and they have been offered this pension as part of their financial package. The choice to work in the private or the public sector is available to all of us. All of us in the public sector pay our taxes too, usually by PAYE, so you can be sure that we pay our way. Finally, you say that you consider it to be immoral that people in the private sector pay tax to meet the cost of these pensions. All of us have to pay tax, and we do not have a say how it is all spent. I struggle to pay tax when I know it will be spent on the monarchy, or military adventures abroad, but I have to accept it. All of us in the public sector pay our taxes tooYes, but the tax you pay is sourced from either the private sector via taxation and\or borrowing. When the likes of New fucking Labour decided to add over 1 million extra public sector workers, increase their salaries, bonuses and pensions they forget that someone else in the private sector has to worker harder, be taxed more or grow their business to pay for it all. So when you say that those in the public sector 'pay your way' what you really mean to say is that some other fucker in the private sector is paying your way for you.
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Post by manmarking on Apr 25, 2016 12:15:52 GMT
Individual taxpayers pay for things they have zero chance of buying themselves all the time. Should those of us who haven't the grades to go to medical school therefore be allowed to stop paying for doctors in the NHS? What about fighter pilots? I'll never be one because amongst other things my eyesight isn't good enough. Can I be exempted from paying for them please? And The Forth Bridge - it's grossly unfair that I have no chance of ever erecting a scale replica in my terraced house back garden so can I stop paying for all the painting please? Eh? You go to the doctors whenever you want and the RAF protects you 24/7. Or your aliases could. Nice try but that's not what I'm saying as you well know. My aliases? Who are they then? Care to name any names or is this just the usual quick "snipe and run" job? "Move and fire....and move and fire...." as Alan Partridge once said
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Pensions
Apr 25, 2016 12:38:42 GMT
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Post by britsabroad on Apr 25, 2016 12:38:42 GMT
Eh? You go to the doctors whenever you want and the RAF protects you 24/7. Or your aliases could. Nice try but that's not what I'm saying as you well know. My aliases? Who are they then? Care to name any names or is this just the usual quick "snipe and run" job? "Move and fire....and move and fire...." as Alan Partridge once said Well you should phrase it better then Its not my job to sniff you out, but as a clue for the admin (if there are any) you do like a good emoticon.
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Post by manmarking on Apr 25, 2016 12:46:34 GMT
Nice try but that's not what I'm saying as you well know. My aliases? Who are they then? Care to name any names or is this just the usual quick "snipe and run" job? "Move and fire....and move and fire...." as Alan Partridge once said Well you should phrase it better then Its not my job to sniff you out, but as a clue for the admin (if there are any) you do like a good emoticon. Okay, I'll humour you boothenboy said: Oh and as I've said before the only thing that's "grossly unfair" is people in this country paying for others pensions of which they have zero chance of buying for themselves. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/256246/pensions#ixzz46qEtZ59WMy point is that by that logic, why pay for anything that we have zero chance of having ourselves? Why should I pay for people to train as a doctor if I can't train as one myself? Why should I pay for people to train for any role I'm not able to do for whatever reason - qualifications, physicality, age, whatever? Where does it end? If it isn't your job to sniff out so-called **************s then why do it? It's a free market, old boy. Someone else's problem. You use a fair number of emoticons too I notice, so I'll assume we're actually the same person and this is all just going on in my head
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Pensions
Apr 25, 2016 12:51:37 GMT
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Post by britsabroad on Apr 25, 2016 12:51:37 GMT
Well you should phrase it better then Its not my job to sniff you out, but as a clue for the admin (if there are any) you do like a good emoticon. Okay, I'll humour you boothenboy said: Oh and as I've said before the only thing that's "grossly unfair" is people in this country paying for others pensions of which they have zero chance of buying for themselves. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/256246/pensions#ixzz46qEtZ59WMy point is that by that logic, why pay for anything that we have zero chance of having ourselves? Why should I pay for people to train as a doctor if I can't train as one myself? Why should I pay for people to train for any role I'm not able to do for whatever reason - qualifications, physicality, age, whatever? Where does it end? If it isn't your job to sniff out so-called **************s then why do it? It's a free market, old boy. Someone else's problem. You use a fair number of emoticons too I notice, so I'll assume we're actually the same person and this is all just going on in my head You're not paying for someone to be a doctor though are you. You're paying for the end result, to have access to the NHS. People pay taxes but they cant access the end result, a public sector pension.
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Post by manmarking on Apr 25, 2016 13:20:03 GMT
Okay, I'll humour you boothenboy said: Oh and as I've said before the only thing that's "grossly unfair" is people in this country paying for others pensions of which they have zero chance of buying for themselves. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/256246/pensions#ixzz46qEtZ59WMy point is that by that logic, why pay for anything that we have zero chance of having ourselves? Why should I pay for people to train as a doctor if I can't train as one myself? Why should I pay for people to train for any role I'm not able to do for whatever reason - qualifications, physicality, age, whatever? Where does it end? If it isn't your job to sniff out so-called **************s then why do it? It's a free market, old boy. Someone else's problem. You use a fair number of emoticons too I notice, so I'll assume we're actually the same person and this is all just going on in my head You're not paying for someone to be a doctor though are you. You're paying for the end result, to have access to the NHS. People pay taxes but they cant access the end result, a public sector pension. But we clearly do pay for people to become doctors. I don't really understand the point you're making. A pension is part of a wider pay package that's formulated to attract the very best candidates that an organisation can afford - public or private. If you offer better pensions then the odds are you'll attract better personnel and thus be able to offer a better end result. Whether you're the NHS or you're selling Widgets to Azerbaijan. Are you saying that no-one should have a public sector pension, or that private sector people should be entitled to one too?
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Post by 4372 on Apr 25, 2016 13:24:14 GMT
Very short response to Squareball.
I can assure you that what I wrote was exactly what I wanted to say. I do not need you to re-interpret my thoughts.
Good Try though
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Pensions
Apr 25, 2016 13:35:04 GMT
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Apr 25, 2016 13:35:04 GMT
I haven't read the report, and I don't need to. The fact that it was published by a right wing think tank tells me enough about its status. The Telegraph and The Adam Smith Institute are both in favour of cutting down the role of the state. Plenty of people have chosen public service as their career, and they have been offered this pension as part of their financial package. The choice to work in the private or the public sector is available to all of us. All of us in the public sector pay our taxes too, usually by PAYE, so you can be sure that we pay our way. Finally, you say that you consider it to be immoral that people in the private sector pay tax to meet the cost of these pensions. All of us have to pay tax, and we do not have a say how it is all spent. I struggle to pay tax when I know it will be spent on the monarchy, or military adventures abroad, but I have to accept it. All of us in the public sector pay our taxes tooYes, but the tax you pay is sourced from either the private sector via taxation and\or borrowing. When the likes of New fucking Labour decided to add over 1 million extra public sector workers, increase their salaries, bonuses and pensions they forget that someone else in the private sector has to worker harder, be taxed more or grow their business to pay for it all. So when you say that those in the public sector 'pay your way' what you really mean to say is that some other fucker in the private sector is paying your way for you. And a lot of those will be 'retiring' at the age of 55 ( receiving a pension) but continuing to work elsewhere.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Apr 25, 2016 17:48:15 GMT
Well you should phrase it better then ;) Its not my job to sniff you out, but as a clue for the admin (if there are any) you do like a good emoticon. Okay, I'll humour you :) boothenboy said: Oh and as I've said before the only thing that's "grossly unfair" is people in this country paying for others pensions of which they have zero chance of buying for themselves. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/256246/pensions#ixzz46qEtZ59WMy point is that by that logic, why pay for anything that we have zero chance of having ourselves? Why should I pay for people to train as a doctor if I can't train as one myself? Why should I pay for people to train for any role I'm not able to do for whatever reason - qualifications, physicality, age, whatever? Where does it end? If it isn't your job to sniff out so-called **************s then why do it? It's a free market, old boy. Someone else's problem. You use a fair number of emoticons too I notice, so I'll assume we're actually the same person and this is all just going on in my head ;) brits seems to have understood my point as I intended it. As you say I'll never be trained as a doctor, but I and everyone else benefits from the government training doctors. I'll probably never use the bridge you quoted, although I and everyone else benefit from the transport infrastructure. And, I'll definitely never be a fighter pilot, but as a country we all benefit from the security that the armed forces provide. You could of course argue that we all benefit from public sector pensions in that it attracts the best people to join our public services. I wouldn't agree and would say that it's wrong that tax payers money goes on pension plans that are unable to be brought by anyone else, nor exist anywhere lese in the world.
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Pensions
Apr 25, 2016 17:54:28 GMT
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Post by manmarking on Apr 25, 2016 17:54:28 GMT
Okay, I'll humour you boothenboy said: Oh and as I've said before the only thing that's "grossly unfair" is people in this country paying for others pensions of which they have zero chance of buying for themselves. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/256246/pensions#ixzz46qEtZ59WMy point is that by that logic, why pay for anything that we have zero chance of having ourselves? Why should I pay for people to train as a doctor if I can't train as one myself? Why should I pay for people to train for any role I'm not able to do for whatever reason - qualifications, physicality, age, whatever? Where does it end? If it isn't your job to sniff out so-called **************s then why do it? It's a free market, old boy. Someone else's problem. You use a fair number of emoticons too I notice, so I'll assume we're actually the same person and this is all just going on in my head brits seems to have understood my point as I intended it. As you say I'll never be trained as a doctor, but I and everyone else benefits from the government training doctors. I'll probably never use the bridge you quoted, although I and everyone else benefit from the transport infrastructure. And, I'll definitely never be a fighter pilot, but as a country we all benefit from the security that the armed forces provide. You could of course argue that we all benefit from public sector pensions in that it attracts the best people to join our public services. I wouldn't agree and would say that it's wrong that tax payers money goes on pension plans that are unable to be brought by anyone else, nor exist anywhere lese in the world. Fair enough mate, we'll agree to disagree. Personally I think that the pension is a big part of the incentive for bright people to work in the public sector. Private sector wages - certainly in healthcare - are generally significantly better than public sector ones so it seems like it's part of a logical balancing act to me
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Pensions
Apr 26, 2016 1:24:30 GMT
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Post by britsabroad on Apr 26, 2016 1:24:30 GMT
Well you should phrase it better then Its not my job to sniff you out, but as a clue for the admin (if there are any) you do like a good emoticon. Okay, I'll humour you boothenboy said: Oh and as I've said before the only thing that's "grossly unfair" is people in this country paying for others pensions of which they have zero chance of buying for themselves. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/256246/pensions#ixzz46qEtZ59WMy point is that by that logic, why pay for anything that we have zero chance of having ourselves? Why should I pay for people to train as a doctor if I can't train as one myself? Why should I pay for people to train for any role I'm not able to do for whatever reason - qualifications, physicality, age, whatever? Where does it end? If it isn't your job to sniff out so-called **************s then why do it? It's a free market, old boy. Someone else's problem. You use a fair number of emoticons too I notice, so I'll assume we're actually the same person and this is all just going on in my head I see youve closed down one of your more obvious incarnations since posting this
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Post by manmarking on Apr 26, 2016 6:29:12 GMT
Okay, I'll humour you boothenboy said: Oh and as I've said before the only thing that's "grossly unfair" is people in this country paying for others pensions of which they have zero chance of buying for themselves. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/256246/pensions#ixzz46qEtZ59WMy point is that by that logic, why pay for anything that we have zero chance of having ourselves? Why should I pay for people to train as a doctor if I can't train as one myself? Why should I pay for people to train for any role I'm not able to do for whatever reason - qualifications, physicality, age, whatever? Where does it end? If it isn't your job to sniff out so-called **************s then why do it? It's a free market, old boy. Someone else's problem. You use a fair number of emoticons too I notice, so I'll assume we're actually the same person and this is all just going on in my head I see youve closed down one of your more obvious incarnations since posting this Bispham sent you out to bat now has he, fraise? How's the plastering business going mar mate?
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