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Post by ukcstokie on Oct 21, 2015 22:49:28 GMT
Weren't we told that the EU debate would be a fair fight? www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34598766The state steps in (and I suspect not for the first time) to tip the balance. It does perhaps feel like the Eastern European elections for many years: they were completely free and fair, except the state decided who was going to win. |
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Post by Nick1984 on Oct 21, 2015 23:25:40 GMT
Sounds similar to Ireland's vote on the Lisbon treaty where they had to vote twice as they voted wrong the first time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 5:18:32 GMT
3million jobs myth de-bunked by author are you reading cleggy? link |
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 22, 2015 6:15:22 GMT
Weren't we told that the EU debate would be a fair fight? www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34598766The state steps in (and I suspect not for the first time) to tip the balance. It does perhaps feel like the Eastern European elections for many years: they were completely free and fair, except the state decided who was going to win. You're sounding a bit like Alex Salmond! But there's something from his experience that the "No to EU" campaign should learn from. Instead of shouting bias at every story that comes out from whatever source, saying it's all part of Project Fear, get your own arguments sorted. Critically, get them sorted on the economy. There was an article up here this week where Big Eck's principal advisor conceded that losing the referendum was down to not having a convincing argument on the economy. Same rules I think will apply with the European referendum. And, expect big business and financial institutions generally to back the EU. Edit: here's that article; Salmond aide: Yes campaign lost on economic case |
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Post by derrida1437 on Oct 22, 2015 6:29:06 GMT
Weren't we told that the EU debate would be a fair fight? www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34598766The state steps in (and I suspect not for the first time) to tip the balance. It does perhaps feel like the Eastern European elections for many years: they were completely free and fair, except the state decided who was going to win. You're sounding a bit like Alex Salmond! But there's something from his experience that the "No to EU" campaign should learn from. Instead of shouting bias at every story that comes out from whatever source, saying it's all part of Project Fear, get your own arguments sorted. Critically, get them sorted on the economy. There was an article up here this week where Big Eck's principal advisor conceded that losing the referendum was down to not having a convincing argument on the economy. Same rules I think will apply with the European referendum. And, expect big business and financial institutions generally to back the EU. Spot on. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 6:36:04 GMT
Ultimately big business are the king makers.
And if they do forecast Armageddon as far as the economy is concerned should we pull out, then who are we to argue.
If we left the EU and the financial centres in London all went off shore not only would there be 100,000's of jobs lost, but the loss in revenue would be irreplaceable , sadly we do not make much anymore, and what we do make is wholly owned foreign enterprises, and if they left as well, well, I'm sure Corbyn would lap up the plaudits in Waste Land Britain, as that is what we will become....
WE MUST STAY IN.....End of....
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Oct 22, 2015 6:45:30 GMT
We're fucked either way.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 7:50:31 GMT
Weren't we told that the EU debate would be a fair fight? www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34598766The state steps in (and I suspect not for the first time) to tip the balance. It does perhaps feel like the Eastern European elections for many years: they were completely free and fair, except the state decided who was going to win. You're sounding a bit like Alex Salmond! But there's something from his experience that the "No to EU" campaign should learn from. Instead of shouting bias at every story that comes out from whatever source, saying it's all part of Project Fear, get your own arguments sorted. Critically, get them sorted on the economy. There was an article up here this week where Big Eck's principal advisor conceded that losing the referendum was down to not having a convincing argument on the economy. Same rules I think will apply with the European referendum. And, expect big business and financial institutions generally to back the EU. Edit: here's that article; Salmond aide: Yes campaign lost on economic caseWe all know that the people up hi , in the best positions, clout, with the most influence,the biggest back scratchers, the ones with the most to lose will stand side by side and get what's good for them 'PERSONALLY' no matter what argument the opposition put up. Being pissed on from a great height and you know it......people like you and Derrida are standing right underneath just like us.......the difference being you two have your mouths open begging for more. baffling  |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 22, 2015 8:08:05 GMT
Genuine question (As I don't know, and would like to) What benefits do we get from being in Europe that we'd lose by not being in? And don't give me 'politicians answers' or link to big long articles that no fucker can be arsed to read. I'm just a thick as shit average Joe off the street, convince me why I should vote to stay in Europe in nice, simple, easy to understand terms.
.... As I understand it voting to leave would mean we can make our own laws, control our own borders, create trade deals with whoever we like, basically we can become our own country again. Is this right or wrong? Am I right in saying we can't do any of those things by being in Europe?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 8:54:03 GMT
Genuine question (As I don't know, and would like to) What benefits do we get from being in Europe that we'd lose by not being in? And don't give me 'politicians answers' or link to big long articles that no fucker can be arsed to read. I'm just a thick as shit average Joe off the street, convince me why I should vote to stay in Europe in nice, simple, easy to understand terms. .... As I understand it voting to leave would mean we can make our own laws, control our own borders, create trade deals with whoever we like, basically we can become our own country again. Is this right or wrong? Am I right in saying we can't do any of those things by being in Europe? When you say 'we' who are you?......it all depends on who you are in the first instance |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 22, 2015 8:58:50 GMT
When you say 'we' who are you?......it all depends on who you are in the first instance I'm just a thick as shit average Joe off the street |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 9:02:29 GMT
When you say 'we' who are you?......it all depends on who you are in the first instance I'm just a thick as shit average Joe off the street If you are an average Joe it's more of what you'll lose than gain if you are a real bad ass communist you'll be like a pig in shit once the EU get full control |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 9:09:09 GMT
You're sounding a bit like Alex Salmond! But there's something from his experience that the "No to EU" campaign should learn from. Instead of shouting bias at every story that comes out from whatever source, saying it's all part of Project Fear, get your own arguments sorted. Critically, get them sorted on the economy. There was an article up here this week where Big Eck's principal advisor conceded that losing the referendum was down to not having a convincing argument on the economy. Same rules I think will apply with the European referendum. And, expect big business and financial institutions generally to back the EU. Edit: here's that article; Salmond aide: Yes campaign lost on economic caseWe all know that the people up hi , in the best positions, clout, with the most influence,the biggest back scratchers, the ones with the most to lose will stand side by side and get what's good for them 'PERSONALLY' no matter what argument the opposition put up. Being pissed on from a great height and you know it......people like you and Derrida are standing right underneath just like us.......the difference being you two have your mouths open begging for more. baffling Thought it would be good to add this from hannan in Amsterdam to explain better .... |
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 22, 2015 11:35:35 GMT
You're sounding a bit like Alex Salmond! But there's something from his experience that the "No to EU" campaign should learn from. Instead of shouting bias at every story that comes out from whatever source, saying it's all part of Project Fear, get your own arguments sorted. Critically, get them sorted on the economy. There was an article up here this week where Big Eck's principal advisor conceded that losing the referendum was down to not having a convincing argument on the economy. Same rules I think will apply with the European referendum. And, expect big business and financial institutions generally to back the EU. Edit: here's that article; Salmond aide: Yes campaign lost on economic caseWe all know that the people up hi , in the best positions, clout, with the most influence,the biggest back scratchers, the ones with the most to lose will stand side by side and get what's good for them 'PERSONALLY' no matter what argument the opposition put up. Being pissed on from a great height and you know it......people like you and Derrida are standing right underneath just like us.......the difference being you two have your mouths open begging for more. baffling You're falling into another trap the "yes" folks up here fell into. Insulting folk who say stuff you don't like. For the record, I have no doubt that the UK would get on fine if it left the EU. That though isn't the question (I believe) most people will be asking themselves. The critical question is "Will I be better off if we stay in the UK or if we leave". This is what the Yes folks up here singularly failed to convince people about. My advice to people advocating No is to learn from the mistakes in Scotland. Don't whinge and whine. Don't slag off the people you need to convince. Make sure you have a coherent argument. Very simple stuff really. Even for a UKIPer.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 11:49:00 GMT
We all know that the people up hi , in the best positions, clout, with the most influence,the biggest back scratchers, the ones with the most to lose will stand side by side and get what's good for them 'PERSONALLY' no matter what argument the opposition put up. Being pissed on from a great height and you know it......people like you and Derrida are standing right underneath just like us.......the difference being you two have your mouths open begging for more. baffling You're falling into another trap the "yes" folks up here fell into. Insulting folk who say stuff you don't like. For the record, I have no doubt that the UK would get on fine if it left the EU. That though isn't the question (I believe) most people will be asking themselves. The critical question is "Will I be better off if we stay in the UK or if we leave". This is what the Yes folks up here singularly failed to convince people about. My advice to people advocating No is to learn from the mistakes in Scotland. Don't whinge and whine. Don't slag off the people you need to convince. Make sure you have a coherent argument. Very simple stuff really. Even for a UKIPer. Still baffling.....unless you mean the eu and not the uk if you mean eu then ask yourself is democracy important to you ? If so why would you want in.....simple stuff really |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 11:50:28 GMT
If you are an average Joe it's more of what you'll lose than gain if you are a real bad ass communist you'll be like a pig in shit once the EU get full control That's not really representative of reality. Europe is overridingly focused on economic objectives with the issues that are commonly ascribed to Europe negatively, being in support of increased liberalisation of markets (semi-sovereignty, migration in particular). Those nations that are left-leaning such as the Scandinavian nations, are increasingly forced to marketise their public policy in order to conform to right wing economic values. The suggestion that the EU is remotely communist is frankly absurd. |
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 22, 2015 12:02:20 GMT
You're falling into another trap the "yes" folks up here fell into. Insulting folk who say stuff you don't like. For the record, I have no doubt that the UK would get on fine if it left the EU. That though isn't the question (I believe) most people will be asking themselves. The critical question is "Will I be better off if we stay in the EU or if we leave". This is what the Yes folks up here singularly failed to convince people about. My advice to people advocating No is to learn from the mistakes in Scotland. Don't whinge and whine. Don't slag off the people you need to convince. Make sure you have a coherent argument. Very simple stuff really. Even for a UKIPer. Still baffling.....unless you mean the eu and not the uk if you mean eu then ask yourself is democracy important to you ? If so why would you want in Whoops - error corrected above! Hope that makes sense now. As to your democracy point - I understand what you are getting at. But I suggest folk have very different ideas about what democracy is and grasping what it means to their lives. What people get and value most is their perceived economic situation. Folk (generally) don't vote to be poorer. Again the Scottish experience shows this; the Yes folk won the argument that independence would produce a more democratic Scotland. And won it hands down - with one line; Scotland doesn't vote Tory, so why should we have a Tory Government? But they lost the vote. Why? Because the electorate does not vote to be poorer. It's not really baffling. |
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Post by desman2 on Oct 22, 2015 12:07:58 GMT
Genuine question (As I don't know, and would like to) What benefits do we get from being in Europe that we'd lose by not being in? And don't give me 'politicians answers' or link to big long articles that no fucker can be arsed to read. I'm just a thick as shit average Joe off the street, convince me why I should vote to stay in Europe in nice, simple, easy to understand terms. .... As I understand it voting to leave would mean we can make our own laws, control our own borders, create trade deals with whoever we like, basically we can become our own country again. Is this right or wrong? Am I right in saying we can't do any of those things by being in Europe? I'll give you my reasons for getting out. Out means we control all aspects of our lives. Governments wont be able to reel off the old, theres nothing we can do about it mantra anymore. But the biggest and most important aspect is we will have our democracy which im afraid supercedes anything else. Its not negotiable and never should be. |
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Post by desman2 on Oct 22, 2015 12:11:42 GMT
Still baffling.....unless you mean the eu and not the uk if you mean eu then ask yourself is democracy important to you ? If so why would you want in Whoops - error corrected above! Hope that makes sense now. As to your democracy point - I understand what you are getting at. But I suggest folk have very different ideas about what democracy is and grasping what it means to their lives. What people get and value most is their perceived economic situation. Folk (generally) don't vote to be poorer. Again the Scottish experience shows this; the Yes folk won the argument that independence would produce a more democratic Scotland. And won it hands down - with one line; Scotland doesn't vote Tory, so why should we have a Tory Government? But they lost the vote. Why? Because the electorate does not vote to be poorer. It's not really baffling. Unless you vote to stay in a system which has compressed wages through its policies or should i say unnacountable directives, which in effect is voting to remain poor. The only true benefactors of EU membership are businesses and unelected gravy train passengers. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 12:24:03 GMT
If you are an average Joe it's more of what you'll lose than gain if you are a real bad ass communist you'll be like a pig in shit once the EU get full control That's not really representative of reality. Europe is overridingly focused on economic objectives with the issues that are commonly ascribed to Europe negatively, being in support of increased liberalisation of markets (semi-sovereignty, migration in particular). Those nations that are left-leaning such as the Scandinavian nations, are increasingly forced to marketise their public policy in order to conform to right wing economic values. The suggestion that the EU is remotely communist is frankly absurd. Well, I suppose it does come across that way a bit but, my meaning was that democracy has no part to play in a communist country just like it has no part to play in the EU |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 22, 2015 12:31:51 GMT
I'll give you my reasons for getting out. Out means we control all aspects of our lives. Governments wont be able to reel off the old, theres nothing we can do about it mantra anymore. But the biggest and most important aspect is we will have our democracy which im afraid supercedes anything else. Its not negotiable and never should be. I 'get' the 'Out' side of it, buddy. I just don't get what benefit it is to me to vote 'In'. I was expecting a rather long list of benefits/pro's to appear in responce to my post, but as of yet no-one has come up with a single reason to convince me that 'In' is the way to go. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 12:45:13 GMT
I'll give you my reasons for getting out. Out means we control all aspects of our lives. Governments wont be able to reel off the old, theres nothing we can do about it mantra anymore. But the biggest and most important aspect is we will have our democracy which im afraid supercedes anything else. Its not negotiable and never should be. I 'get' the 'Out' side of it, buddy. I just don't get what benefit it is to me to vote 'In'. I was expecting a rather long list of benefits/pro's to appear in responce to my post, but as of yet no-one has come up with a single reason to convince me that 'In' is the way to go. That's because you're doing what Patrick says I'm doing.....not listening........staying in gives you the basic right to vote out something/ someone you don't like.........a right you will soon have to forfeit to stay in........basic democracy |
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Oct 22, 2015 12:47:20 GMT
I'll give you my reasons for getting out. Out means we control all aspects of our lives. Governments wont be able to reel off the old, theres nothing we can do about it mantra anymore. But the biggest and most important aspect is we will have our democracy which im afraid supercedes anything else. Its not negotiable and never should be. I 'get' the 'Out' side of it, buddy. I just don't get what benefit it is to me to vote 'In'. I was expecting a rather long list of benefits/pro's to appear in responce to my post, but as of yet no-one has come up with a single reason to convince me that 'In' is the way to go. I'll start the ball rolling... We're already in It's not that bad It does not affect me personally I don't care what they do in London, let alone in Belgium What's it got to do with me? They've just spent some money somewhere around here We elect people to take these decisions for us If it was not in our interests, our politicians would not agree to them All the good jobs will go to Germany and so will the banks |
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 22, 2015 12:58:23 GMT
Whoops - error corrected above! Hope that makes sense now. As to your democracy point - I understand what you are getting at. But I suggest folk have very different ideas about what democracy is and grasping what it means to their lives. What people get and value most is their perceived economic situation. Folk (generally) don't vote to be poorer. Again the Scottish experience shows this; the Yes folk won the argument that independence would produce a more democratic Scotland. And won it hands down - with one line; Scotland doesn't vote Tory, so why should we have a Tory Government? But they lost the vote. Why? Because the electorate does not vote to be poorer. It's not really baffling. Unless you vote to stay in a system which has compressed wages through its policies or should i say unnacountable directives, which in effect is voting to remain poor. The only true benefactors of EU membership are businesses and un-elected gravy train passengers. Wage compression in low paid jobs due to immigration is a powerful argument. How many voters are bothered about that - that is the question. Most people who vote may be beneficiaries - directly or indirectly. The rest of your statement is the sort of rant that turn most folk off. |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 22, 2015 13:04:43 GMT
That's because you're doing what Patrick says I'm doing.....not listening........staying in gives you the basic right to vote out something/ someone you don't like.........a right you will soon have to forfeit to stay in........basic democracy I'm confused. So staying in Europe is good 'cos I can then vote against things I don't like... But then I have to give up that if we do stay in? Am I just reading that wrong or does it make no sense whatsoever? |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 22, 2015 13:05:35 GMT
I'll start the ball rolling... We're already in It's not that bad It does not affect me personally I don't care what they do in London, let alone in Belgium What's it got to do with me? They've just spent some money somewhere around here We elect people to take these decisions for us If it was not in our interests, our politicians would not agree to them All the good jobs will go to Germany and so will the banks Can I have your list for 'Out' now  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 13:08:11 GMT
I'll give you my reasons for getting out. Out means we control all aspects of our lives. Governments wont be able to reel off the old, theres nothing we can do about it mantra anymore. But the biggest and most important aspect is we will have our democracy which im afraid supercedes anything else. Its not negotiable and never should be. I 'get' the 'Out' side of it, buddy. I just don't get what benefit it is to me to vote 'In'. I was expecting a rather long list of benefits/pro's to appear in responce to my post, but as of yet no-one has come up with a single reason to convince me that 'In' is the way to go. The overriding one is removal of barriers to trade. Freedom of movement of everything: labour, capital, the lot. If you don't think free trade is the be all and end all, there's probably not much value in it to you. |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 22, 2015 13:14:00 GMT
The overriding one is removal of barriers to trade. Freedom of movement of everything: labour, capital, the lot. If you don't think free trade is the be all and end all, there's probably not much value in it to you. So what happens to all this trade if we vote 'Out'? Do Germany, France etc... Suddenly stop trading with us? How much trade do we actually have with the EU Countries? Surely we benefit them as much as they benefit us, so why would they cut off their nose to spite their face if we vote 'Out'? If they do all stop trading with us (Or even if they don't) wouldn't voting 'Out' mean we could do our own trade deals with whoever we please? |
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Post by Squeekster on Oct 22, 2015 13:18:39 GMT
The overriding one is removal of barriers to trade. Freedom of movement of everything: labour, capital, the lot. If you don't think free trade is the be all and end all, there's probably not much value in it to you. So what happens to all this trade if we vote 'Out'? Do Germany, France etc... Suddenly stop trading with us? How much trade do we actually have with the EU Countries? Surely we benefit them as much as they benefit us, so why would they cut off their nose to spite their face if we vote 'Out'? If they do all stop trading with us (Or even if they don't) wouldn't voting 'Out' mean we could do our own trade deals with whoever we please? I think it's been proven many times that they need us more than we need them trade wise. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 14:49:38 GMT
That's because you're doing what Patrick says I'm doing.....not listening........staying in gives you the basic right to vote out something/ someone you don't like.........a right you will soon have to forfeit to stay in........basic democracy I'm confused. So staying in Europe is good 'cos I can then vote against things I don't like... But then I have to give up that if we do stay in? Am I just reading that wrong or does it make no sense whatsoever? What the fuck have i written there ill do it again later |
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