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Post by foster on Oct 7, 2015 9:05:01 GMT
Someone who's only attribute can be fulfilled by 4 other current players, who can't attack or defend either, certainly sounds like a weak link. Not that I was saying that you said that anyway. Don't mess with the N'Zohan. I defended n'zonzi more than anyone and actually described him as impossible to replace. Hence I have little problem in us using different types of players to fill the void in a different way. Shoehorning someone into doing exactly what n'zonzi did would have been a disaster. Muniesa is the man for me. He could potentially offer everything nzonzi did and a bit more besides. I can't believe we haven't seen him in a midfield role yet. Let's face it mate, you've always hated N'Zonzi. No amount of u-turning is going to change that now Seriously though, I'd like to see Muni get a opportunity in midfield too. Especially since he's not first choice for any defensive position. He's a great professional and deserves a chance. Obviously if it doesn't work out for him then he shouldn't be in there, but aside from the footballing factor, I think it's pivotal that we keep him happy in terms of promoting the club, attracting better players and improving team spirit. He's a good egg.
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Post by jarhead on Oct 7, 2015 9:08:29 GMT
I do like the balance of Whelan and Adam in there together against certain teams because he always used to play deep for Blackpool and spray those quality passes down the flanks and across the pitch, we know he can shoot from lirterally Anywhere so I can see where Hughes is coming from but I do like Van Ginkel, totally different players though.
Van Ginkel is good to help see out games or if we are getting overun in midfield because his energy levels are superb plus he likes to get involved going forward so it's good we have all kinds of options in there.
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Post by foster on Oct 7, 2015 9:22:40 GMT
I do like the balance of Whelan and Adam in there together against certain teams because he always used to play deep for Blackpool and spray those quality passes down the flanks and across the pitch, we know he can shoot from lirterally Anywhere so I can where Hughes is coming from but I do like Van Ginkel, totally different players though. Van Ginkel is good to help see out games or if we are getting overun in midfield because his energy levels are superb plus he likes to get involved going forward so it's good we have all kinds of options in there. Is this the... MVG who came off v Spurs - and then we came back from 2-0 down to draw MVG who played v Leicester when we gave up a 2 goal lead but did not concede again after he was subbed off MVG who came on in the 75th minute v Bournemouth when we leading 2-0, only for them to score 1 minute later in the 76th minute MVG who when we've started with him have conceded in every game (Lost 3, Drew 3 of first 6 games) MVG who hasn't started in any of the games we've won this season I don't know what it is about him, but I'm telling you, he's a curse. I dread when he plays or comes on. I really do.
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Post by thebet365 on Oct 7, 2015 9:44:25 GMT
I do like the balance of Whelan and Adam in there together against certain teams because he always used to play deep for Blackpool and spray those quality passes down the flanks and across the pitch, we know he can shoot from lirterally Anywhere so I can where Hughes is coming from but I do like Van Ginkel, totally different players though. Van Ginkel is good to help see out games or if we are getting overun in midfield because his energy levels are superb plus he likes to get involved going forward so it's good we have all kinds of options in there. Is this the... MVG who came off v Spurs - and then we came back from 2-0 down to draw MVG who played v Leicester when we gave up a 2 goal lead but did not concede again after he was subbed off MVG who came on in the 75th minute v Bournemouth when we leading 2-0, only for them to score 1 minute later in the 76th minute MVG who when we've started with him have conceded in every game (Lost 3, Drew 3 of first 6 games) MVG who hasn't started in any of the games we've won this season I don't know what it is about him, but I'm telling you, he's a curse. I dread when he plays or comes on. I really do. I bet you can find thousands of spurs fans saying similar about Bale a few years back.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Oct 7, 2015 10:04:31 GMT
Wow I just found a crazy fact. We havent conceded a single goal whilst Adam has been on the pitch this season:
Livepool - started and played 78 mins (replaced by Sidwell DOH), then Coutinho scored after 86 Norwich - came off bench on 79 minutes (score remained 1-1) West Brom - red carded after 30 minutes (Rondon scored after 40 mins) Arsenal - suspended Leicester - suspended Bournemouth - started and played 75 minutes - we were winning 1-0 at the time then Bournemouth scored a minute later Aston Villa - played 90 minutes and we won 1-0
So Adam has played 284 minutes of league football this season during which we conceded ZERO goals.
hmmmmmmmmmm, still wondering why Hughes is picking him?
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Post by foster on Oct 7, 2015 10:51:06 GMT
Is this the... MVG who came off v Spurs - and then we came back from 2-0 down to draw MVG who played v Leicester when we gave up a 2 goal lead but did not concede again after he was subbed off MVG who came on in the 75th minute v Bournemouth when we leading 2-0, only for them to score 1 minute later in the 76th minute MVG who when we've started with him have conceded in every game (Lost 3, Drew 3 of first 6 games) MVG who hasn't started in any of the games we've won this season I don't know what it is about him, but I'm telling you, he's a curse. I dread when he plays or comes on. I really do. I bet you can find thousands of spurs fans saying similar about Bale a few years back. Difference being that Bale was a Spurs player who they were stuck with, who then turned out to be excellent and who made them shitloads of money. MVG is a Chelsea player who's only here to gain experience (to their benefit) before he fucks off back there at the end of the season at which point they'll likely sell him anyway. I'm not a big believer in giving loan players time to adapt. For me they should be established players able to gel and provide a positive impact within 4-5 games. If we have to play MV Omen upto December before he starts putting in decent performances then what's the point in loaning him in the first place? I can see the point in signing him originally as a low risk, low cost N'Zonzi replacement with high potential. However, it's clearly not working out and I don't want our game/results to suffer as a result.
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Post by foster on Oct 7, 2015 10:52:14 GMT
Wow I just found a crazy fact. We havent conceded a single goal whilst Adam has been on the pitch this season: Livepool - started and played 78 mins (replaced by Sidwell DOH), then Coutinho scored after 86 Norwich - came off bench on 79 minutes (score remained 1-1) West Brom - red carded after 30 minutes (Rondon scored after 40 mins) Arsenal - suspended Leicester - suspended Bournemouth - started and played 75 minutes - we were winning 1-0 at the time then Bournemouth scored a minute later Aston Villa - played 90 minutes and we won 1-0 So Adam has played 284 minutes of league football this season during which we conceded ZERO goals. hmmmmmmmmmm, still wondering why Hughes is picking him? I'm not sure the West Brom one should count
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2015 11:35:07 GMT
I've always liked Charlie but he does worry me when he gets "involved" once booked he's almost a cert for a red so he has to be careful and so does LMH.
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Post by superstokiesimo on Oct 7, 2015 11:36:46 GMT
I'd like to see Geoff and Adam have a run there once Ryan is back
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 7, 2015 11:43:50 GMT
I do think that Adam is constantly proving people wrong. Hes been written off so many times over the years with us as: Too fat Too lazy Too fat & lazy Cant tackle Walking red card Shit corners Shit free-kicks Cant play deep role Cant play number 10 role Not good enough to build the team around Pub Player Championship at best The list goes on forever with things being aimed at him in the past. At the end of the day though hes a clear match-winner and he has a big WILL TO WIN which is very undervalued. He drives the team on and makes sure we are on the front foot. We all know hes not the perfect player and has some weaknesses but Im always happy to see him in the team. Im confident hes going to prove a lot of people wrong over the next few months and we'll be left thinking "Nzonzi who??" come end of the season when Charlie ends up with 5 goals and 10 assists. I love the big Scottish bugger You forgot the most ridiculous one of all He's a Liability Just laughable at times Sometimes he is. He veers between magnificent and dreadful,often in the same game, and that's before you consider his petulance that shows no sign of going anywhere at the age of 29. I like the bloke but he can infuriate as well, and that's why he's very much a squad player who gets the odd run in the side rather than an untouchable.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Oct 7, 2015 11:49:21 GMT
I'd like to see Geoff and Adam have a run there once Ryan is back Do you mean, Cameron or Adam, or are you advocating playing them as a duo and dropping Whelan
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Post by potterpaul on Oct 7, 2015 11:52:19 GMT
You forgot the most ridiculous one of all He's a Liability Just laughable at times Sometimes he is. He veers between magnificent and dreadful,often in the same game, and that's before you consider his petulance that shows no sign of going anywhere at the age of 29. I like the bloke but he can infuriate as well, and that's why he's very much a squad player who gets the odd run in the side rather than an untouchable. I've said it before, he is no more a liability than Ryan is with his (sometimes over the top) man handling. You wouldn't drop Ryan because of what he of offers the team, the same should be dealt to Charlie.
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Post by superstokiesimo on Oct 7, 2015 11:52:33 GMT
I'd like to see Geoff and Adam have a run there once Ryan is back Do you mean, Cameron or Adam, or are you advocating playing them as a duo and dropping Whelan I don't see why whelan is untouchable. He's alright but I think we need to think about replacement's
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 7, 2015 11:55:38 GMT
Sometimes he is. He veers between magnificent and dreadful,often in the same game, and that's before you consider his petulance that shows no sign of going anywhere at the age of 29. I like the bloke but he can infuriate as well, and that's why he's very much a squad player who gets the odd run in the side rather than an untouchable. I've said it before, he is no more a liability than Ryan is with his (sometimes over the top) man handling. You wouldn't drop Ryan because of what he of offers the team, the same should be dealt to Charlie. I'd say a bloke who can't be trusted not to stamp on a bloke when the mood takes him is more of a liability than a bloke who tussles at corners. And his decision-making and refusal/in capability to track his man is a worry at times too. At other times though he's brilliant and pulls points for us out of nowhere.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Oct 7, 2015 12:00:29 GMT
Do you mean, Cameron or Adam, or are you advocating playing them as a duo and dropping Whelan I don't see why whelan is untouchable. He's alright but I think we need to think about replacement's I think we should look to the future and get another, younger defensive midfielder in, but at the moment Whelan is playing very well indeed and you certainly wouldn't drop him just to give Cameron a game there. I'm not sure what you were getting at before but surely you wouldn't suddenly start to play Cameron and Adam just to see what transpired.
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Post by potterpaul on Oct 7, 2015 12:11:03 GMT
Wow I just found a crazy fact. We havent conceded a single goal whilst Adam has been on the pitch this season: Livepool - started and played 78 mins (replaced by Sidwell DOH), then Coutinho scored after 86 Norwich - came off bench on 79 minutes (score remained 1-1) West Brom - red carded after 30 minutes (Rondon scored after 40 mins) Arsenal - suspended Leicester - suspended Bournemouth - started and played 75 minutes - we were winning 1-0 at the time then Bournemouth scored a minute later Aston Villa - played 90 minutes and we won 1-0 So Adam has played 284 minutes of league football this season during which we conceded ZERO goals. hmmmmmmmmmm, still wondering why Hughes is picking him? I'm not sure the West Brom one should count 254 then, still almost 3 games without conceding. It's still a pretty good track record thus far for someone who can't play in that position.
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Post by superstokiesimo on Oct 7, 2015 12:20:09 GMT
I don't see why whelan is untouchable. He's alright but I think we need to think about replacement's I think we should look to the future and get another, younger defensive midfielder in, but at the moment Whelan is playing very well indeed and you certainly wouldn't drop him just to give Cameron a game there. I'm not sure what you were getting at before but surely you wouldn't suddenly start to play Cameron and Adam just to see what transpired. Why not? Cameron is a better athlete and at least pass's forward. Whelan is OK but doesn't have lots of the skills that Geoff does that help win games
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Post by jimmygscfc on Oct 7, 2015 12:30:34 GMT
I like Geoff and rate him quite highly but I think your view regarding him playing instead of Whelan at this point would be a minority view and just won't happen.
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Post by kustokie on Oct 7, 2015 13:07:10 GMT
I like Geoff and rate him quite highly but I think your view regarding him playing instead of Whelan at this point would be a minority view and just won't happen. Agreed. Unless Whelan get's injured and, God help us, if the GCam as DM doesn't work out.
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Post by kustokie on Oct 7, 2015 13:09:17 GMT
That's the most sensible, balanced view on N'zonzi's contributions (or lack of) I've read so far - I expect you'll get battered for it! Player of the season for a lad that did naff all....not bad! He's a class player and it doesn't surprise me a lot of people never seemed to have got him. See. I knew you'd be battered by the usual suspects!
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Post by kustokie on Oct 7, 2015 13:20:02 GMT
Tin Hat here Certainly N'zonzi is skillful footballer and very easy on the eye. However, what did N'zonzi con tribute last season? The numbers tell an interesting story. Here's the number of goals, assists, and totals for last season. Diouf 12 3 15 Walters 8 4 12 Crouch 7 3 10 Adam 7 1 8 Moses 3 4 7 Arnie 1 6 7 Bojan 4 1 5 N'zonzi 3 1 4 Adjusting for the number of games played, N'zonzi's numbers are even less impressive. Anticiating some abuse. You don't just judge a footballer on that though ku. You don't even judge a striker on goals alone in 2015. Nzonzi was the key cog in Hughes' system. He was the one who helped keep possession, he was the one tasked with transitioning defence to attack. He was the engine. I agree that numbers don't tell the whole story. One of N'zonzi key attributes, once he learned not the pass sideways and backwards, was he kept possession and pushed forward, which took the pressure off the back four and created attacking options. It would be interesting to know how many goals last season were initiated by N'zonzi. The data do indicate he wasn't involved much in the final pass or in the goals. We'll never know how well we'd have done without him last season. Arguably, we finding out now. However, the data are fuzzy, mainly due to strange team selections and even stranger substitutions - hopefully that's been sorted.
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Post by chiswickpotter on Oct 7, 2015 13:29:51 GMT
I do like the balance of Whelan and Adam in there together against certain teams because he always used to play deep for Blackpool and spray those quality passes down the flanks and across the pitch, we know he can shoot from lirterally Anywhere so I can where Hughes is coming from but I do like Van Ginkel, totally different players though. Van Ginkel is good to help see out games or if we are getting overun in midfield because his energy levels are superb plus he likes to get involved going forward so it's good we have all kinds of options in there. Is this the... MVG who came off v Spurs - and then we came back from 2-0 down to draw MVG who played v Leicester when we gave up a 2 goal lead but did not concede again after he was subbed off MVG who came on in the 75th minute v Bournemouth when we leading 2-0, only for them to score 1 minute later in the 76th minute MVG who when we've started with him have conceded in every game (Lost 3, Drew 3 of first 6 games) MVG who hasn't started in any of the games we've won this season I don't know what it is about him, but I'm telling you, he's a curse. I dread when he plays or comes on. I really do. But we could say MVG who came off and we didn't score afterward against Leicester MVG who came on at 1-0 and under pressure against Bournemouth and helped us rally to win 2-1 MVG who didn't play at Fulham in possibly our worst midfield display for several years We have played this season without Shawcross, a fully fit Bojan and patchy appearances due to injury by Diouf. On Saturday we won without these three, Arnie and Shaqiri on the pitch at the end. As the full squad comes together we won't even notice N'Zonzi and his 2 or 3 assists a season has gone. We have a better goalkeeper, better right back, more strong options at centre back and a front 4 to die for with back up as well
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Post by pyrus on Oct 7, 2015 13:44:45 GMT
Wow I just found a crazy fact. We havent conceded a single goal whilst Adam has been on the pitch this season: Livepool - started and played 78 mins (replaced by Sidwell DOH), then Coutinho scored after 86 Norwich - came off bench on 79 minutes (score remained 1-1) West Brom - red carded after 30 minutes (Rondon scored after 40 mins) Arsenal - suspended Leicester - suspended Bournemouth - started and played 75 minutes - we were winning 1-0 at the time then Bournemouth scored a minute later Aston Villa - played 90 minutes and we won 1-0 So Adam has played 284 minutes of league football this season during which we conceded ZERO goals. hmmmmmmmmmm, still wondering why Hughes is picking him? That's a pretty impressive statistic. You do need to balance it with the fact that we conceded and lost against WBA, in a large part, because he was no longer on the field, having been sent off.
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Post by kustokie on Oct 7, 2015 13:57:49 GMT
I do like the balance of Whelan and Adam in there together against certain teams because he always used to play deep for Blackpool and spray those quality passes down the flanks and across the pitch, we know he can shoot from lirterally Anywhere so I can where Hughes is coming from but I do like Van Ginkel, totally different players though. Van Ginkel is good to help see out games or if we are getting overun in midfield because his energy levels are superb plus he likes to get involved going forward so it's good we have all kinds of options in there. Is this the... MVG who came off v Spurs - and then we came back from 2-0 down to draw MVG who played v Leicester when we gave up a 2 goal lead but did not concede again after he was subbed off MVG who came on in the 75th minute v Bournemouth when we leading 2-0, only for them to score 1 minute later in the 76th minute MVG who when we've started with him have conceded in every game (Lost 3, Drew 3 of first 6 games) MVG who hasn't started in any of the games we've won this season I don't know what it is about him, but I'm telling you, he's a curse. I dread when he plays or comes on. I really do. Was it cause and effect or Mourinho's pay back for Charlie's goal last season. Sending us VG kills three birds with one stone. Get's a crappy player of Chelski's payroll, keeps Adam off the field and weakens our team. Sneaky!
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Post by foster on Oct 7, 2015 14:24:23 GMT
Is this the... MVG who came off v Spurs - and then we came back from 2-0 down to draw MVG who played v Leicester when we gave up a 2 goal lead but did not concede again after he was subbed off MVG who came on in the 75th minute v Bournemouth when we leading 1-0, only for them to score 1 minute later in the 76th minute MVG who when we've started with him have conceded in every game (Lost 3, Drew 3 of first 6 games) MVG who hasn't started in any of the games we've won this season I don't know what it is about him, but I'm telling you, he's a curse. I dread when he plays or comes on. I really do. But we could say MVG who came off and we didn't score afterward against Leicester MVG who came on at 1-0 and under pressure against Bournemouth and helped us rally to win 2-1 MVG who didn't play at Fulham in possibly our worst midfield display for several years We have played this season without Shawcross, a fully fit Bojan and patchy appearances due to injury by Diouf. On Saturday we won without these three, Arnie and Shaqiri on the pitch at the end. As the full squad comes together we won't even notice N'Zonzi and his 2 or 3 assists a season has gone. We have a better goalkeeper, better right back, more strong options at centre back and a front 4 to die for with back up as well You could say those things but mine are more relevant and convincing...fact!
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Post by NassauDave on Oct 7, 2015 14:37:11 GMT
I would agree with this too.
Charlie covers less ground than Nzonzi but his range and accuracy of passing to all areas of the field beats Nzonzi's hands down. Nzonzi's passing was good but very limited in variation and distance.
MVG really needs to step up his game.
Our squad is so much better than it was!
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Post by Davef on Oct 7, 2015 15:56:58 GMT
I've always liked Charlie but he does worry me when he gets "involved" once booked he's almost a cert for a red so he has to be careful and so does LMH. Charlie has received around 25 yellow cards for Stoke, but has only gone on to get another one in the same game just once, against Tottenham in 2012/13. His other sending off against WBA the other week was a straight red (and he had that retrospective straight red after the Arsenal game). You could argue, of course, that he does get substituted quite a bit, saving him the chance of getting another one, but those are those stats.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 7, 2015 16:07:41 GMT
You don't just judge a footballer on that though ku. You don't even judge a striker on goals alone in 2015. Nzonzi was the key cog in Hughes' system. He was the one who helped keep possession, he was the one tasked with transitioning defence to attack. He was the engine. I agree that numbers don't tell the whole story. One of N'zonzi key attributes, once he learned not the pass sideways and backwards, was he kept possession and pushed forward, which took the pressure off the back four and created attacking options. It would be interesting to know how many goals last season were initiated by N'zonzi. The data do indicate he wasn't involved much in the final pass or in the goals. We'll never know how well we'd have done without him last season. Arguably, we finding out now. However, the data are fuzzy, mainly due to strange team selections and even stranger substitutions - hopefully that's been sorted. I do think people need to realise that it is ok sometimes to pass the ball backwards and sideways. It can't always go forwards, and it isn't always the fault of the player doing it that it goes that way.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2015 17:24:00 GMT
I've always liked Charlie but he does worry me when he gets "involved" once booked he's almost a cert for a red so he has to be careful and so does LMH. Charlie has received around 25 yellow cards for Stoke, but has only gone on to get another one in the same game just once, against Tottenham in 2012/13. His other sending off against WBA the other week was a straight red (and he had that retrospective straight red after the Arsenal game). You could argue, of course, that he does get substituted quite a bit, saving him the chance of getting another one, but those are those stats. Don't confuse my fears with facts Dave but I do think at times he walks a very thin line.
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Post by kustokie on Oct 7, 2015 20:09:08 GMT
I agree that numbers don't tell the whole story. One of N'zonzi key attributes, once he learned not the pass sideways and backwards, was he kept possession and pushed forward, which took the pressure off the back four and created attacking options. It would be interesting to know how many goals last season were initiated by N'zonzi. The data do indicate he wasn't involved much in the final pass or in the goals. We'll never know how well we'd have done without him last season. Arguably, we finding out now. However, the data are fuzzy, mainly due to strange team selections and even stranger substitutions - hopefully that's been sorted. I do think people need to realise that it is ok sometimes to pass the ball backwards and sideways. It can't always go forwards, and it isn't always the fault of the player doing it that it goes that way. I know that. However, for a long time backwards or sideways was N'zonzi first and second instinct and forwards was a distant third. Anyway, this is all water under the bridge and we need to move forward (pun intended!).
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