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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 6, 2015 20:31:03 GMT
From a far MVG though never appeared to be what we should have been after.....
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 6, 2015 21:25:56 GMT
Maybe MvG looked better from afar - now Hughes sees him up close in his team, he is not so keen? Adam has been chosen ahead of a fully fit MvG in the past two games, so right now, yes, he does prefer Adam in that role. I don't like the sound of somebody only looking good from afar if they've been brought in to replace our player of the season. That's why I said I found his comments worrying. I don't believe that whilst he was on his holidays, Hughes was thinking - I know, Charlie Adam is the perfect replacement for N'Zonzi. I don't think he remotely thought about it. |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 6, 2015 21:46:13 GMT
Discuss and debate it as much as we want, the evidence that Hughes saw Charlie Adam as being flexible enough to play in either of the key midfield roles has been there for all to see for quite some time.
Whether that means he was seen as someone who could offer what N'zonzi did or simply someone that could play that role in a slightly different way could be discussed all day and all night long, but Hughes seems happy enough to try Charlie in that deeper role, particularly against the lesser lights of the division where, on paper at least, breaking them down may prove problematic.
We have no direct replacement for N'zonzi for sure but whilst being a very good player, can anyone tell us exactly what type of midfield player he actually was because he wasn't the best defensively and he didn't score many goals. In fact, he rarely created any either. His main, and perhaps only attribute, was to keep the ball in very tight spaces, which I appreciate shouldn't be underestimated but we should, in the form of Arnie, Bojan, Ireland and Shaqiri have players who can also offer us that valuable attribute.
Adam was excellent on Saturday. If he can continue to play like that and with the likes of Bojan and Shaqiri to return to the side at full fitness and form, the prospect of those players combining successfully is actually quite exciting. MVG will play his part as well I'm sure.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 6, 2015 21:50:43 GMT
We don't though as keeping the ball further back in the pitch just isn't happening, aided an abetted by losing Shawcross and not playing Muni who the best two passers we have at centre back.
Something undervalued was N'Zonzi presence in the air too in midfield, something we definitely haven't replaced.
He dictated our play from deep, we have no one to do that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 21:54:35 GMT
It'll be a case of horses for courses until we can bring in a permanent replacement for NZonzi.
Against certain teams, Adam will do the job (generally teams with a flatter midfield that sit back), against others Van Ginkel will do the job and eventually, when Ryan is back, against the top sides I reckon he'll chuck Cameron in there for his graft.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 6, 2015 21:57:20 GMT
It'll be a case of horses for courses until we can bring in a permanent replacement for NZonzi. Against certain teams, Adam will do the job (generally teams with a flatter midfield that sit back), against others Van Ginkel will do the job and eventually, when Ryan is back, against the top sides I reckon he'll chuck Cameron in there for his graft. Is that good enough though? Surely signing a top bollock off the shelf replacement for your player of the season had to be the #1 priority no matter what? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 22:04:58 GMT
It'll be a case of horses for courses until we can bring in a permanent replacement for NZonzi. Against certain teams, Adam will do the job (generally teams with a flatter midfield that sit back), against others Van Ginkel will do the job and eventually, when Ryan is back, against the top sides I reckon he'll chuck Cameron in there for his graft. Is that good enough though? Surely signing a top bollock off the shelf replacement for your player of the season had to be the #1 priority no matter what? We've seen how Hughes works now though and he has very set targets. If he can't get them he'll do a sticking plaster job for a season until he can get the player within the clubs budget. Re. Diouf, Shaqiri etc. There will be a player on the radar that will be here in 6-12 months I reckon. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 6, 2015 22:07:49 GMT
Is that good enough though? Surely signing a top bollock off the shelf replacement for your player of the season had to be the #1 priority no matter what? We've seen how Hughes works now though and he has very set targets. If he can't get them he'll do a sticking plaster job for a season until he can get the player within the clubs budget. Re. Diouf, Shaqiri etc. There will be a player on the radar that will be here in 6-12 months I reckon. So are you saying MVG is that man? Because I think he is/was as much as I don't want to because here we are still not happy. And with the prospect of Cameron taking up the mantle with Adam having a go too. As someone who loves a simple footballer who glides across the pitch (N'Zonzi) this scares the absolute shit out of me (and I'm saying doing badly or whatever) I just mean in terms of ball retention and them losing the thing whilst under pressure. |
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Post by kustokie on Oct 6, 2015 22:08:17 GMT
Discuss and debate it as much as we want, the evidence that Hughes saw Charlie Adam as being flexible enough to play in either of the key midfield roles has been there for all to see for quite some time. Whether that means he was seen as someone who could offer what N'zonzi did or simply someone that could play that role in a slightly different way could be discussed all day and all night long, but Hughes seems happy enough to try Charlie in that deeper role, particularly against the lesser lights of the division where, on paper at least, breaking them down may prove problematic. We have no direct replacement for N'zonzi for sure but whilst being a very good player, can anyone tell us exactly what type of midfield player he actually was because he wasn't the best defensively and he didn't score many goals. In fact, he rarely created any either. His main, and perhaps only attribute, was to keep the ball in very tight spaces, which I appreciate shouldn't be underestimated but we should, in the form of Arnie, Bojan, Ireland and Shaqiri have players who can also offer us that valuable attribute. Adam was excellent on Saturday. If he can continue to play like that and with the likes of Bojan and Shaqiri to return to the side at full fitness and form, the prospect of those players combining successfully is actually quite exciting. MVG will play his part as well I'm sure. That's the most sensible, balanced view on N'zonzi's contributions (or lack of) I've read so far - I expect you'll get battered for it! |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 6, 2015 22:11:01 GMT
Discuss and debate it as much as we want, the evidence that Hughes saw Charlie Adam as being flexible enough to play in either of the key midfield roles has been there for all to see for quite some time. Whether that means he was seen as someone who could offer what N'zonzi did or simply someone that could play that role in a slightly different way could be discussed all day and all night long, but Hughes seems happy enough to try Charlie in that deeper role, particularly against the lesser lights of the division where, on paper at least, breaking them down may prove problematic. We have no direct replacement for N'zonzi for sure but whilst being a very good player, can anyone tell us exactly what type of midfield player he actually was because he wasn't the best defensively and he didn't score many goals. In fact, he rarely created any either. His main, and perhaps only attribute, was to keep the ball in very tight spaces, which I appreciate shouldn't be underestimated but we should, in the form of Arnie, Bojan, Ireland and Shaqiri have players who can also offer us that valuable attribute. Adam was excellent on Saturday. If he can continue to play like that and with the likes of Bojan and Shaqiri to return to the side at full fitness and form, the prospect of those players combining successfully is actually quite exciting. MVG will play his part as well I'm sure. That's the most sensible, balanced view on N'zonzi's contributions (or lack of) I've read so far - I expect you'll get battered for it! Player of the season for a lad that did naff all....not bad!  He's a class player and it doesn't surprise me a lot of people never seemed to have got him. |
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Post by blackpoolred on Oct 6, 2015 22:17:10 GMT
I am sure I read that Nzonzi covered more ground than any other player in the prem last year or was up there with the best. Charlie, on the other hand, has trouble breaking sweat, breaking up play and probably breaking wind these days - If he is given this role he will have to quit smoking  |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 6, 2015 22:20:43 GMT
I am sure I read that Nzonzi covered more ground than any other player in the prem last year or was up there with the best. Charlie, on the other hand, has trouble breaking sweat, breaking up play and probably breaking wind these days - If he is given this role he will have to quit smoking He was a lazy, good for nothing Frenchman! |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 6, 2015 22:24:48 GMT
That's the most sensible, balanced view on N'zonzi's contributions (or lack of) I've read so far - I expect you'll get battered for it! Player of the season for a lad that did naff all....not bad! He's a class player and it doesn't surprise me a lot of people never seemed to have got him. Some would say he was player of the year by default because at various points in the season he'd have been trailing behind Ryan, Moses and bojan. Injuries to each of them perhaps handed that accolade to him on a plate. Don't get me wrong, he was a super player and is a huge loss but if we can get the blend right, it won't be at all bad if we find an alternative that offers us some goals and creativity. Muniesa could be the man to offer us everything n'zonzi did and a whole lot more besides ;-) |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 6, 2015 22:30:01 GMT
Player of the season for a lad that did naff all....not bad! He's a class player and it doesn't surprise me a lot of people never seemed to have got him. Some would say he was player of the year by default because at various points in the season he'd have been trailing behind Ryan, Moses and bojan. Injuries to each of them perhaps handed that accolade to him on a plate. Don't get me wrong, he was a super player and is a huge loss but if we can get the blend right, it won't be at all bad if we find an alternative that offers us some goals and creativity. Muniesa could be the man to offer us everything n'zonzi did and a whole lot more besides ;-) Even so he still was and I still think in Hughes' time here he's been the most key player under him. Shawcross only missed 6 league games so I think that's stretching it a bit..... We don't have that alternative though, it's clear as day that we don't. It's why we tried for Jedinak who should only be a stop gap himself. |
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Oct 6, 2015 23:00:58 GMT
I hope so it is his best position but he has to show the discipline that he did on Saturday consistently , we have good coaches and I hope they work on him hard to get him to play consitently in that role
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Post by enuntio on Oct 6, 2015 23:13:40 GMT
One thing that Charlie will definitely do is have more shots
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Post by kustokie on Oct 7, 2015 0:29:57 GMT
Tin Hat here
Certainly N'zonzi is skillful footballer and very easy on the eye. However, what did N'zonzi con tribute last season? The numbers tell an interesting story. Here's the number of goals, assists, and totals for last season.
Diouf 12 3 15
Walters 8 4 12
Crouch 7 3 10
Adam 7 1 8
Moses 3 4 7
Arnie 1 6 7
Bojan 4 1 5
N'zonzi 3 1 4
Adjusting for the number of games played, N'zonzi's numbers are even less impressive. Anticiating some abuse.
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Post by clarkeda on Oct 7, 2015 6:47:13 GMT
If we can find one in our price that is. Do you have anyone in mind. I doubt it was for the lack of trying that we didn't find anyone in the Summer. I suspect there will be even less available in January. Offer Rubin Kazan the going rate for Yann M'Vila, who's on loan in the madhouse that is Sunderland right now. Get his temperament sorted and it'll be "Steven who?"! This, one million percent. |
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 7, 2015 7:03:07 GMT
Tin Hat here Certainly N'zonzi is skillful footballer and very easy on the eye. However, what did N'zonzi con tribute last season? The numbers tell an interesting story. Here's the number of goals, assists, and totals for last season. Diouf 12 3 15 Walters 8 4 12 Crouch 7 3 10 Adam 7 1 8 Moses 3 4 7 Arnie 1 6 7 Bojan 4 1 5 N'zonzi 3 1 4 Adjusting for the number of games played, N'zonzi's numbers are even less impressive. Anticiating some abuse. You don't just judge a footballer on that though ku. You don't even judge a striker on goals alone in 2015. Nzonzi was the key cog in Hughes' system. He was the one who helped keep possession, he was the one tasked with transitioning defence to attack. He was the engine. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Oct 7, 2015 7:17:54 GMT
Just so we clear up this is exactly what happened with the Nzonzi situation:
Stoke management believed we would convince him to sign for another year.
Nzonzi just wouldnt commit but he didnt hand in a transfer request.
That being the case it is pretty difficult to open negotiations with a replacement if you ideally want to convince Nzonzi to stay and ur not sure that he will.
Maybe a bit too much blind faith was shown because we had not lost a key player since our return to the Top Flight. The team was a bit naive but everyone on the oatcake believed we would offer him a big wage increase and he would sign up for additional years.
MVG was never lined up as a straight replacement for Nzonzi. We only made the move after we knew Nzonzi was going to leave and it was a rush job to get someone in quickly.
I firmly believe we should have made Nzonzi complete his final year on the contract knowing he leaves for nowt next year, but at least we can find a proper replacement. Hes a moaning french bastard but hes still going to perform on the pitch because he would still want that big move.
For me that was the mistake. Selling him for peanuts that massively undervalues him was a travesty. Having a proper replacement lined up never seemed necessary
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 7, 2015 7:31:26 GMT
Just so we clear up this is exactly what happened with the Nzonzi situation: Stoke management believed we would convince him to sign for another year. Nzonzi just wouldnt commit but he didnt hand in a transfer request. That being the case it is pretty difficult to open negotiations with a replacement if you ideally want to convince Nzonzi to stay and ur not sure that he will. Maybe a bit too much blind faith was shown because we had not lost a key player since our return to the Top Flight. The team was a bit naive but everyone on the oatcake believed we would offer him a big wage increase and he would sign up for additional years. MVG was never lined up as a straight replacement for Nzonzi. We only made the move after we knew Nzonzi was going to leave and it was a rush job to get someone in quickly. I firmly believe we should have made Nzonzi complete his final year on the contract knowing he leaves for nowt next year, but at least we can find a proper replacement. Hes a moaning french bastard but hes still going to perform on the pitch because he would still want that big move. For me that was the mistake. Selling him for peanuts that massively undervalues him was a travesty. Having a proper replacement lined up never seemed necessary Even if all that is true, N'Zonzi signed for Sevilla with EIGHT weeks of the transfer window still to go, so how could signing MVG be seen as a rush job? The rush job/attempted panic buy was having seen MVG in there a few times, Hughes then decided he needed Jedinak at the very last minute and didn't give himself enough time to get the negotiations over the line. And if he was so convinced that Adam was the man for the job anyway, why did he even bother attempting to get Jedinak here in the first place? |
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Post by foster on Oct 7, 2015 8:04:42 GMT
Discuss and debate it as much as we want, the evidence that Hughes saw Charlie Adam as being flexible enough to play in either of the key midfield roles has been there for all to see for quite some time. Whether that means he was seen as someone who could offer what N'zonzi did or simply someone that could play that role in a slightly different way could be discussed all day and all night long, but Hughes seems happy enough to try Charlie in that deeper role, particularly against the lesser lights of the division where, on paper at least, breaking them down may prove problematic. We have no direct replacement for N'zonzi for sure but whilst being a very good player, can anyone tell us exactly what type of midfield player he actually was because he wasn't the best defensively and he didn't score many goals. In fact, he rarely created any either. His main, and perhaps only attribute, was to keep the ball in very tight spaces, which I appreciate shouldn't be underestimated but we should, in the form of Arnie, Bojan, Ireland and Shaqiri have players who can also offer us that valuable attribute. Adam was excellent on Saturday. If he can continue to play like that and with the likes of Bojan and Shaqiri to return to the side at full fitness and form, the prospect of those players combining successfully is actually quite exciting. MVG will play his part as well I'm sure. Only Arnie gets close to N'Zonzi in terms of ball retention and holding up the ball as he's strong physically. The others you list need to run around or they get dispossessed, which reduces the time for other team members to get forward. We also have no one in CM able to win as many aerial duels as N'Zonzi did. Also, N'Zonzi just played in CM for Sevilla who beat Barcelona last week. Not bad for a weak link. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2015 8:08:25 GMT
We've seen how Hughes works now though and he has very set targets. If he can't get them he'll do a sticking plaster job for a season until he can get the player within the clubs budget. Re. Diouf, Shaqiri etc. There will be a player on the radar that will be here in 6-12 months I reckon. So are you saying MVG is that man? Because I think he is/was as much as I don't want to because here we are still not happy. And with the prospect of Cameron taking up the mantle with Adam having a go too. As someone who loves a simple footballer who glides across the pitch (N'Zonzi) this scares the absolute shit out of me (and I'm saying doing badly or whatever) I just mean in terms of ball retention and them losing the thing whilst under pressure. No I don't think he is that man, or designed to be that man. I think that was something separate that dropped on Hughes' lap with the Begovic deal (A secondary name to Moses who was number 1 target and turned us down?) and, as he has admitted in the press, thinks he is a good player having tried to sign him previously. My gut feeling is they are after Sergi Roberto and are waiting for either the price to drop or the player to consider joining us...or whatever reason the delay could be. If it will happen at all. The Jedinak move is a puzzler because it doesn't fit any type of profile other than "Shit we might lose Walters and we need a big character...who can we get?"....and even then it raises more questions than answers. The bigger puzzler is Cattermole. The tub thumping, aggressive ball winner that has seemingly dropped totally off the radar and is now no longer a requirement in the make up of the team/squad? It seems like we wanted him, couldn't get him and can't find another of that type of player anywhere, or suddenly don't require that type of player at all. |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 7, 2015 8:18:15 GMT
Jo Discuss and debate it as much as we want, the evidence that Hughes saw Charlie Adam as being flexible enough to play in either of the key midfield roles has been there for all to see for quite some time. Whether that means he was seen as someone who could offer what N'zonzi did or simply someone that could play that role in a slightly different way could be discussed all day and all night long, but Hughes seems happy enough to try Charlie in that deeper role, particularly against the lesser lights of the division where, on paper at least, breaking them down may prove problematic. We have no direct replacement for N'zonzi for sure but whilst being a very good player, can anyone tell us exactly what type of midfield player he actually was because he wasn't the best defensively and he didn't score many goals. In fact, he rarely created any either. His main, and perhaps only attribute, was to keep the ball in very tight spaces, which I appreciate shouldn't be underestimated but we should, in the form of Arnie, Bojan, Ireland and Shaqiri have players who can also offer us that valuable attribute. Adam was excellent on Saturday. If he can continue to play like that and with the likes of Bojan and Shaqiri to return to the side at full fitness and form, the prospect of those players combining successfully is actually quite exciting. MVG will play his part as well I'm sure. Only Arnie gets close to N'Zonzi in terms of ball retention and holding up the ball as he's strong physically. The others you list need to run around or they get dispossessed, which reduces the time for other team members to get forward. We also have no one in CM able to win as many aerial duels as N'Zonzi did. Also, N'Zonzi just played in CM for Sevilla who beat Barcelona last week. Not bad for a weak link. Don't go putting words into my mouth. Not once have I described n'zonzi as a weak link. He was a superb footballer who was always going to prove very difficult to replace like for like. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Oct 7, 2015 8:19:44 GMT
I do think that Adam is constantly proving people wrong.
Hes been written off so many times over the years with us as:
Too fat
Too lazy
Too fat & lazy
Cant tackle
Walking red card
Shit corners
Shit free-kicks
Cant play deep role
Cant play number 10 role
Not good enough to build the team around
Pub Player
Championship at best
The list goes on forever with things being aimed at him in the past. At the end of the day though hes a clear match-winner and he has a big WILL TO WIN which is very undervalued. He drives the team on and makes sure we are on the front foot. We all know hes not the perfect player and has some weaknesses but Im always happy to see him in the team.
Im confident hes going to prove a lot of people wrong over the next few months and we'll be left thinking "Nzonzi who??" come end of the season when Charlie ends up with 5 goals and 10 assists.
I love the big Scottish bugger
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Post by potterpaul on Oct 7, 2015 8:23:27 GMT
I do think that Adam is constantly proving people wrong. Hes been written off so many times over the years with us as: Too fat Too lazy Too fat & lazy Cant tackle Walking red card Shit corners Shit free-kicks Cant play deep role Cant play number 10 role Not good enough to build the team around Pub Player Championship at best The list goes on forever with things being aimed at him in the past. At the end of the day though hes a clear match-winner and he has a big WILL TO WIN which is very undervalued. He drives the team on and makes sure we are on the front foot. We all know hes not the perfect player and has some weaknesses but Im always happy to see him in the team. Im confident hes going to prove a lot of people wrong over the next few months and we'll be left thinking "Nzonzi who??" come end of the season when Charlie ends up with 5 goals and 10 assists. I love the big Scottish bugger You forgot the most ridiculous one of all He's a Liability Just laughable at times |
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Post by foster on Oct 7, 2015 8:32:47 GMT
Jo Only Arnie gets close to N'Zonzi in terms of ball retention and holding up the ball as he's strong physically. The others you list need to run around or they get dispossessed, which reduces the time for other team members to get forward. We also have no one in CM able to win as many aerial duels as N'Zonzi did. Also, N'Zonzi just played in CM for Sevilla who beat Barcelona last week. Not bad for a weak link. Don't go putting words into my mouth. Not once have I described n'zonzi as a weak link. He was a superb footballer who was always going to prove very difficult to replace like for like. Someone who's only attribute can be fulfilled by 4 other current players, who can't attack or defend either, certainly sounds like a weak link. Not that I was saying that you said that anyway. Don't mess with the N'Zohan. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Oct 7, 2015 8:35:05 GMT
Adam has contributed as much to Stoke the past 3 seasons as Jonny Walters, Peter Crouch, Arnautovic with well over 100 appearances and plenty of match winning goals.
Hes had about 3 red stupid red cards in the same period, which whilst not excusing his sometimes silly behaviour is hardly evil is it?
Charlie Adam = Matchwinner
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 7, 2015 8:57:12 GMT
JoDon't go putting words into my mouth. Not once have I described n'zonzi as a weak link. He was a superb footballer who was always going to prove very difficult to replace like for like. Someone who's only attribute can be fulfilled by 4 other current players, who can't attack or defend either, certainly sounds like a weak link. Not that I was saying that you said that anyway. Don't mess with the N'Zohan. I defended n'zonzi more than anyone and actually described him as impossible to replace. Hence I have little problem in us using different types of players to fill the void in a different way. Shoehorning someone into doing exactly what n'zonzi did would have been a disaster. Muniesa is the man for me. He could potentially offer everything nzonzi did and a bit more besides. I can't believe we haven't seen him in a midfield role yet. |
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Post by foster on Oct 7, 2015 8:59:20 GMT
Adam has contributed as much to Stoke the past 3 seasons as Jonny Walters, Peter Crouch, Arnautovic with well over 100 appearances and plenty of match winning goals. Hes had about 3 red stupid red cards in the same period, which whilst not excusing his sometimes silly behaviour is hardly evil is it? Charlie Adam = Matchwinner The only two red cards that still piss me off since we've been in the Prem are Afellays (slightly irritating) and Pennants (massively irritating). Adam's a great player to have in the team, but as most of our players, they have their pros and cons, which is pretty much what makes them Stoke players and not top 4 material. Overall, I think Adam can play in this position better than MVG (who for me should be sent back to Chelsea), though he's a downgrade on N'Zonzi. However, if he can score more goals and create more opportunities than N'Zonzi did then my view may change. It could be a decent alternative. |
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