Education - right or privilege?

[derrida1437]

Education is either a right or it is not.

University education is treated similarly to private healthcare or private pensions, in so much as if you "opt in" to it you then have to pay for it. The state will pay for your education to a point - the rest is down to you.

I've always advocated means testing the state pension and using that money for university education along with increasing taxation. There's an ever increasing pot of pension money which goes towards people who don't need it. Plus it gets the money off the welfare books.

Put succinctly, if society wants its young people to have the skills and education to drive it forward and (ironically, given the nature of some of the debates on this message board I'd much rather steer clear of) not have to rely so heavily on educated workers from overseas, then it should pay for it.

Admittedly I've a vested interest in it. It's not an argument that's easily satisfied, but we are where we are with it. Politically, the situation is that we have to pay for it, and that's that.

It would be nice, on occasions, if we put people and their prospects before financial considerations, if only sometimes. We do it with pensioners.

Linked posts: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/248598/trident-nuclear-thing?page=4#ixzz3nOKw9oYr

[salopstick]

It's a right and a privilege depends on the case

I'm all for sticking out brightest kids through uni but too many go to uni who would be better off working.

[Billy the kid]

Higher education for the most part is a joke, but to be fair its a crappy world as a school leaver these days. The only type of employment open to you are low paid (2 quid or so an hour) and low skilled.

[Deleted]

I'm not intelligent enough to reply to such a high class thread

Pass

[steve66]

Oct 2, 2015 9:00:55 GMT @clujstokie said:

I'm not intelligent enough to reply to such a high class thread

Pass

X2!!!!

[kbillyh]

Oct 2, 2015 9:00:55 GMT @clujstokie said:

I'm not intelligent enough to reply to such a high class thread

Pass

If only you applied the same logic to the other 90% of threads your comment appies to.

That's 9 out of 10 by the way.

[vamborools]

And I bet there are a lot of kids who go to Uni who's parents can afford, it so why take it off the pensioners. We are as entitled to our share of the pot as anyone else whether we need it or not, seeing as we have payed into it for the last 45 years in the first place.

[Deleted]

Oct 2, 2015 9:31:42 GMT kbillyh said:

Oct 2, 2015 9:00:55 GMT @clujstokie said:

I'm not intelligent enough to reply to such a high class thread

Pass

If only you applied the same logic to the other 90% of threads your comment appies to.

That's 9 out of 10 by the way.

See, I can't even understand this spazzism

[stokeharry]

Oct 2, 2015 9:38:08 GMT vamborools said:

And I bet there are a lot of kids who go to Uni who's parents can afford, it so why take it off the pensioners. We are as entitled to our share of the pot as anyone else whether we need it or not, seeing as we have payed into it for the last 45 years in the first place.

Correct . If you contribute you are entitled to take out of the pot.

[dutchpeter72]

Oct 2, 2015 10:21:59 GMT stokeharry said:

Oct 2, 2015 9:38:08 GMT vamborools said:

And I bet there are a lot of kids who go to Uni who's parents can afford, it so why take it off the pensioners. We are as entitled to our share of the pot as anyone else whether we need it or not, seeing as we have payed into it for the last 45 years in the first place.

Correct . If you contribute you are entitled to take out of the pot.

I wish that was true Harry. I've paid tax all my working life and I've seen diddly squat for it.

[stokeharry]

Oct 2, 2015 11:04:30 GMT dutchpeter72 said:

Oct 2, 2015 10:21:59 GMT stokeharry said:

Correct . If you contribute you are entitled to take out of the pot.

I wish that was true Harry. I've paid tax all my working life and I've seen diddly squat for it.

Your right mate .

What I meant was if you paid tax all your working life you SHOULD be entitled to take from pot but unfortunately those that work hard and save and do the right thing are penalised whilst those that sit round doing fuck all get all the help in the world.

Socialism ay

[tomkinson67]

Oct 2, 2015 9:00:55 GMT @clujstokie said:

I'm not intelligent enough to reply to such a high class thread

Pass

It doesn't normally stop you!

[Deleted]

Oct 2, 2015 11:08:20 GMT tomkinson67 said:

Oct 2, 2015 9:00:55 GMT @clujstokie said:

I'm not intelligent enough to reply to such a high class thread

Pass

It doesn't normally stop you!

Shall you stay as tommo today ?

[kbillyh]

Oct 2, 2015 10:01:58 GMT @clujstokie said:

Oct 2, 2015 9:31:42 GMT kbillyh said:

If only you applied the same logic to the other 90% of threads your comment appies to.

That's 9 out of 10 by the way.

See, I can't even understand this spazzism

Hahaha, fair do's.


"appies" definition: The accidental slip in the local "Wrights" shop When you are torn between wanting 2 pies but knowing your growing waistline means you should settle for one.

i.e "Meat and potatoe appies please"


Hope this makes more sensical.

[mermaidsal]

Or else you could argue it's a gross abuse of human rights incarcerating children between 5 and 16 for 7 hours a day 40 weeks of the year simply on grounds of age and it's about time someone brought a class action for unlawful imprisonment...

[Deleted]

Oct 2, 2015 12:19:13 GMT mermaidsal said:

Or else you could argue it's a gross abuse of human rights incarcerating children between 5 and 16 for 7 hours a day 40 weeks of the year simply on grounds of age and it's about time someone brought a class action for unlawful imprisonment...

For some kids school is sactuary, it's the only place they hear common sense , get support and the only place they get to eat a decent meal etc

[Skankmonkey]

Oct 2, 2015 12:57:11 GMT @clujstokie said:

Oct 2, 2015 12:19:13 GMT mermaidsal said:

Or else you could argue it's a gross abuse of human rights incarcerating children between 5 and 16 for 7 hours a day 40 weeks of the year simply on grounds of age and it's about time someone brought a class action for unlawful imprisonment...

For some kids school is sactuary, it's the only place they hear common sense , get support and the only place they get to eat a decent meal etc

This is the unfortunate truth. Poor buggers.

[mermaidsal]

Oct 2, 2015 13:13:46 GMT Skankmonkey said:

Oct 2, 2015 12:57:11 GMT @clujstokie said:

For some kids school is sactuary, it's the only place they hear common sense , get support and the only place they get to eat a decent meal etc

This is the unfortunate truth. Poor buggers.

Sad but true - I do wish there was some way of keeping that support but not making it mandatory for so many years for the rest though, truly I don't think it does most too many favours.

As for higher education I'd love to see it free entry for all again but I don't see how that's possible with so many going, and so few of them making use of the degrees afterwards. One of the daftest things New Labour did, spoiling uni for many who really want or need it in order to keep parroting education education education.

[partickpotter]

Oct 2, 2015 7:19:03 GMT salopstick said:

It's a right and a privilege depends on the case

I'm all for sticking out brightest kids through uni but too many go to uni who would be better off working.

Indeed.

It's the point I made on a separate thread.

Tertiary education is a privilege; primary and secondary education is a right (it's also compulsory - by law).

Here's the argument I put forward;

Because unlike primary and secondary it is not universal and it is not compulsive. It is selective, based on intelligence as demonstrated through examination results. Of course, a number of factors determine what results students get in these examinations which can be generally placed in two categories; nature and nurture. Or in other words, what you have in yourself and what your environment is.

You also need to consider why people go to University (or more likely why parents want their kids to go there). It's to enhance life prospects - or to be a little crude, get jobs that pay more money.

Add to that tertiary education is the most expensive form of education, and there is a limited pot of tax payers money generally (that greedy NHS always wants more of our cash) and for education particularly (check out facilities at our run of the mill schools).

So considering these three factors you can now start considering the real world and ask yourself what we should be doing regards education. Pretty soon you'll find over simplistic arguments like no tuition fees start to become problematic and, frankly, counter productive. There is a strong case, if you want to increase the number of children from low income families entering University, any money you have should go into pre-school and primary education.

[Skankmonkey]

Oct 2, 2015 13:19:21 GMT mermaidsal said:

Oct 2, 2015 13:13:46 GMT Skankmonkey said:

This is the unfortunate truth. Poor buggers.

Sad but true - I do wish there was some way of keeping that support but not making it mandatory for so many years for the rest though, truly I don't think it does most too many favours.

As for higher education I'd love to see it free entry for all again but I don't see how that's possible with so many going, and so few of them making use of the degrees afterwards. One of the daftest things New Labour did, spoiling uni for many who really want or need it in order to keep parroting education education education.

Is that down to unfortunate personal experience or a more general philosophical point? The current lot are keeping them in till 18 I believe. I worry how my grandson will deal with that. He's a bit wayward. Still, it massages the unemployment figures I suppose.

[salopstick]

Oct 2, 2015 12:19:13 GMT mermaidsal said:

Or else you could argue it's a gross abuse of human rights incarcerating children between 5 and 16 for 7 hours a day 40 weeks of the year simply on grounds of age and it's about time someone brought a class action for unlawful imprisonment...

39 weeks of the year sometimes 38

[bigjohnritchie]

Oct 2, 2015 12:19:13 GMT mermaidsal said:

Or else you could argue it's a gross abuse of human rights incarcerating children between 5 and 16 for 7 hours a day 40 weeks of the year simply on grounds of age and it's about time someone brought a class action for unlawful imprisonment...

There is alot of truth in what you say, Sal. For many children school is a nightmare, emphasises and confirms that they are judged to be (academic) failures and does not help their self esteem.....but they are taught to conform

[The Drunken Communist]

The whole school system needs revamping. In Primary school teach kids English, Maths, Science, Geography & History. (Possibley IT aswell nowadays)
Then when they're in High School, the first two years you can get into the more advanced science/maths/IT type stuff, then by time they're in the 3rd year (or year 9, whatever) get teaching them carpentry/brick-laying/plumbing/mechanic/etc...

Then when they leave school the poncy kids who want be an Oprea star or whatever shit can go Uni & do Drama & English literature & all that bollocks, and the rest of the normal kids can go into the working world with a head start & being of use to society.

[harryburrows]

Oct 2, 2015 7:19:03 GMT salopstick said:

It's a right and a privilege depends on the case

I'm all for sticking out brightest kids through uni but too many go to uni who would be better off working.

The problem young people face in this country is the lack of skilled apprenticeships . Too many kids end up in uni doing courses that will not equip them for their own particular needs . Craft apprenticeships were the backbone of working. Class kids future developement . It is a disgrace that this system was allowed to shrivel and die

[stokeharry]

Oct 2, 2015 15:07:02 GMT The Drunken Communist said:

The whole school system needs revamping. In Primary school teach kids English, Maths, Science, Geography & History. (Possibley IT aswell nowadays)
Then when they're in High School, the first two years you can get into the more advanced science/maths/IT type stuff, then by time they're in the 3rd year (or year 9, whatever) get teaching them carpentry/brick-laying/plumbing/mechanic/etc...

Then when they leave school the poncy kids who want be an Oprea star or whatever shit can go Uni & do Drama & English literature & all that bollocks, and the rest of the normal kids can go into the working world with a head start & being of use to society.

^^ this .

Makes sense to me

[fortressbritannia]

Oct 2, 2015 7:19:03 GMT salopstick said:

It's a right and a privilege depends on the case

I'm all for sticking out brightest kids through uni but too many go to uni who would be better off working.

I think the last part is 100% spot on.

Although for it to work i think the whole grading system needs overhauling. I've always been in favour of a percentage grading system rather than the A* - C grades they historically use. It gives employers a better understanding of a persons ability and helps gives bright kids (who maybe aren't quite bright enough for university) a better chance rather then going to university in order to stand out from those who aren't as bright.

[derrida1437]

Oct 2, 2015 13:48:07 GMT partickpotter said:

Oct 2, 2015 7:19:03 GMT salopstick said:

It's a right and a privilege depends on the case

I'm all for sticking out brightest kids through uni but too many go to uni who would be better off working.

Indeed.

It's the point I made on a separate thread.

Tertiary education is a privilege; primary and secondary education is a right (it's also compulsory - by law).

Here's the argument I put forward;

Because unlike primary and secondary it is not universal and it is not compulsive. It is selective, based on intelligence as demonstrated through examination results. Of course, a number of factors determine what results students get in these examinations which can be generally placed in two categories; nature and nurture. Or in other words, what you have in yourself and what your environment is.

You also need to consider why people go to University (or more likely why parents want their kids to go there). It's to enhance life prospects - or to be a little crude, get jobs that pay more money.

Add to that tertiary education is the most expensive form of education, and there is a limited pot of tax payers money generally (that greedy NHS always wants more of our cash) and for education particularly (check out facilities at our run of the mill schools).

So considering these three factors you can now start considering the real world and ask yourself what we should be doing regards education. Pretty soon you'll find over simplistic arguments like no tuition fees start to become problematic and, frankly, counter productive. There is a strong case, if you want to increase the number of children from low income families entering University, any money you have should go into pre-school and primary education.

Apologies for that - I should have carried your point from the other thread, too. 

[partickpotter]

Oct 2, 2015 19:13:56 GMT derrida1437 said:

Oct 2, 2015 13:48:07 GMT partickpotter said:

Indeed.

It's the point I made on a separate thread.

Tertiary education is a privilege; primary and secondary education is a right (it's also compulsory - by law).

Here's the argument I put forward;

Apologies for that - I should have carried your point from the other thread, too. 

No sweat fella. It's a good subject. Not sure how much traction it'll get though. Let's see. It's important.

A personal example - a few years after my wife went back to work, after looking after our two kids for a few years, she took a year out to do a course in nursery education. Cost us quite a bit of cash plus lost earnings? I do wonder why we had to pay for that. But that's sort of the way it is. We bit the bullet and got on with it.

[boothenboy75]

Education is of course a right. But where does that right end and it become a privilege? Now I'm 40 odd I quite fancy a return to student life and would gladly sign back up for another 3 years, isn't that my right? Don't all of those children in Africa have the right to a proper education?

As ever it comes down to money. Those who think university education should be free, and with a daughter going next year I'm certainly not against it, should say what's going to fund it. Are we all going to pay higher taxes? Should money be cut from elsewhere? Cue lets tax Google and the bankers.

Lets not forget, it was Labour who introduced tuition fees as they could see that free university education was unaffordable. The bursaries on offer to less privileged students are very generous from most university's though and perhaps this has something to do with the below?

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationopinion/11408555/Raising-tuition-fees-is-paying-off-for-everyone-except-Nick-Clegg.html

[mermaidsal]

Oct 2, 2015 13:48:33 GMT Skankmonkey said:

Oct 2, 2015 13:19:21 GMT mermaidsal said:

Sad but true - I do wish there was some way of keeping that support but not making it mandatory for so many years for the rest though, truly I don't think it does most too many favours.

As for higher education I'd love to see it free entry for all again but I don't see how that's possible with so many going, and so few of them making use of the degrees afterwards. One of the daftest things New Labour did, spoiling uni for many who really want or need it in order to keep parroting education education education.

Is that down to unfortunate personal experience or a more general philosophical point? The current lot are keeping them in till 18 I believe. I worry how my grandson will deal with that. He's a bit wayward. Still, it massages the unemployment figures I suppose.

Happy to own up to being wayward at school, I was aright pain in the arse probably and didn't want to be there after 14 or so...

But, as a motivated first degree student who got her fees paid and was able to go into a relatively low-paid vocational job because there wasn't a loan hanging round her neck... and quite a few years later doing two postgrad degrees as I picked up the pieces post-accident, I am very thankful higher education was open to me, it's been really important - I believe in education, just not forcing it down everyone's throat.