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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 22:59:04 GMT
Time for those on the left of the Party to rally behind Corbyn which they are doing .
Time for those like me who vehemently oppose him to stand up and be counted .
I don't agree with hardly any of his ideas ......
I am anti CND .
I am against same sex marriage .
I am against anti austerity but would prefer a more moderate payment plan .
I am against mass immigration .
I am against taxing the wealthiest to force them offshore .
I think that all our UK citizens should be forced into earning their benefits if fit to do so . We wouldn't need foreign workers to take up the slack .
I would stop child benefit after the second child .
I would increase the minimum wage .
I would renationalise the water companies , gas and electricity .
I would invest in British jobs for British kids . I would reintroduce apprentiships and I would build more affordable council houses and prevent their sale in the future.
I would abandon HS2 rail link.
There are many other points I could provide to clearly show my differences with the far left of the party , but the purpose of the thread is merely to highlight the differences rather than provoke an argument to the contrary of my thoughts .
I know that there are many in this country that would flock back to Labour instead of going down the UKIP route should some of these ideas be adopted by the new leader.
Unfortunately , I fear that this is not going to happen . The Labour Party faces years in the wilderness . Basing election campaigns almost solely of the wellbeing of the NHS is not going to win you elections on its own . It has to be more diverse and pragmatic . More inventive and dynamic .
The way it is currently going is catastrophic . A complete shambles .
Mumf
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Post by Gods on Aug 1, 2015 23:24:56 GMT
That reads like a menu from the Conservatives, Labour and UKIP.
I suspect you would have to look to the Catholic Church for any serious opposition to same sex marriage these days.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 23:31:17 GMT
That reads like a menu from the Conservatives, Labour and UKIP. I suspect you would have to look to the Catholic Church for any serious opposition to same sex marriage these days. You know as well as I do that in the main politicians only adopt policies for their own kind . They are too polarised and the country suffers as a result . It's called political posturing ....point scoring.! What I am advocating is hopefully for the good of us all . As for the Catholic Church , well you maybe right , but I don't do religion . I don't Santa either ...   |
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Post by skip on Aug 2, 2015 1:53:17 GMT
Corbyn isn't hard left he's simply not a neo-liberal. The Tories and Blairite Labour aren't fighting over the centre ground, they're all properly right wing, make no mistake.
Corbyn is also extremely shrewd and progressive, not at all the dinosaur he's portrayed as.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 2:41:36 GMT
Corbyn isn't hard left he's simply not a neo-liberal. The Tories and Blairite Labour aren't fighting over the centre ground, they're all properly right wing, make no mistake. Corbyn is also extremely shrewd and progressive, not at all the dinosaur he's portrayed as. you may be wrong on that one ....time will tell though |
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 2, 2015 4:22:03 GMT
Time for those on the left of the Party to rally behind Corbyn which they are doing . Time for those like me who vehemently oppose him to stand up and be counted . I don't agree with hardly any of his ideas ...... I am anti CND . I am against same sex marriage . I am against anti austerity but would prefer a more moderate payment plan . I am against mass immigration . I am against taxing the wealthiest to force them offshore . I think that all our UK citizens should be forced into earning their benefits if fit to do so . We wouldn't need foreign workers to take up the slack . I would stop child benefit after the second child . I would increase the minimum wage . I would renationalise the water companies , gas and electricity . I would invest in British jobs for British kids . I would reintroduce apprentiships and I would build more affordable council houses and prevent their sale in the future. I would abandon HS2 rail link. There are many other points I could provide to clearly show my differences with the far left of the party , but the purpose of the thread is merely to highlight the differences rather than provoke an argument to the contrary of my thoughts . I know that there are many in this country that would flock back to Labour instead of going down the UKIP route should some of these ideas be adopted by the new leader. Unfortunately , I fear that this is not going to happen . The Labour Party faces years in the wilderness . Basing election campaigns almost solely of the wellbeing of the NHS is not going to win you elections on its own . It has to be more diverse and pragmatic . More inventive and dynamic . The way it is currently going is catastrophic . A complete shambles . Mumf Against. Anti austerity mumf ??. I'm still trying to grasp that one |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 2, 2015 4:29:02 GMT
Time for those on the left of the Party to rally behind Corbyn which they are doing . Time for those like me who vehemently oppose him to stand up and be counted . I don't agree with hardly any of his ideas ...... I am anti CND . I am against same sex marriage . I am against anti austerity but would prefer a more moderate payment plan . I am against mass immigration . I am against taxing the wealthiest to force them offshore . I think that all our UK citizens should be forced into earning their benefits if fit to do so . We wouldn't need foreign workers to take up the slack . I would stop child benefit after the second child . I would increase the minimum wage . I would renationalise the water companies , gas and electricity . I would invest in British jobs for British kids . I would reintroduce apprentiships and I would build more affordable council houses and prevent their sale in the future. I would abandon HS2 rail link. There are many other points I could provide to clearly show my differences with the far left of the party , but the purpose of the thread is merely to highlight the differences rather than provoke an argument to the contrary of my thoughts . I know that there are many in this country that would flock back to Labour instead of going down the UKIP route should some of these ideas be adopted by the new leader. Unfortunately , I fear that this is not going to happen . The Labour Party faces years in the wilderness . Basing election campaigns almost solely of the wellbeing of the NHS is not going to win you elections on its own . It has to be more diverse and pragmatic . More inventive and dynamic . The way it is currently going is catastrophic . A complete shambles . Mumf Good post I can agree with 95% of that Mumf ,which Imho is as near as people can realisically get. Interesting times, politically. I think that THE EU is not as United as it would like to believe and migration the Eurozone/Non eurozone amongst other issues will be divisive in the future. The Greek and Scottish issues have not been resolved I don't want to misdirect your thread but the In/out EU issue is the most important issue for me, so a clear stance on that needs including. The experiment is a progressive process as we move to full political union .... we both have reservations about this, but I believe that we cannot be in and at the same time retain independent policy , on such issues as freemovement. I can understand the idea that we are better in and argue our case, but think it is impossible.Corbyn has a dilemma on this. Corbyn has short term and longer term goals, as we all do. For instance, his issue with the royal family, he says, "can wait". In this respect I agree with your nationalisation of the utilities (and even public transport ) but I think that would have to wait....we have been led to believe that only private ownership is efficient so at the moment public ownership, I believe, would put voters off. I agree with job creation, innovation support but also we need an approach to the treatment of the elderly. I think that Corbyn should be elected leader as a conviction politician, and he really has exposed the shallowness of the reduction of the Labour Party as a Slightly left of centre PR business/organisation/company. Unfortunately Mumf, you hit the nail on the head in one of your earlier posts. Through education, media, drip - drip, political correctness, over tolerance etc, we can no longer think outside the box, think independently nor control (much of) our destiny. Reform of the Electoral system and the House of Lords need to be included for me, as crucial issues, so that the Govt actually reflects the electorate as far as possible. Of course those in the big two parties will keep telling us that this cannot be done, as FPTP gives strong Govt. In actuality it just gives the best insurance/or hope of power for them and their families. Reform would encourage smaller parties, and eventually some sort of concensus Govt, instead of the usual , us and them, left and right, which we are led to believe, is the only way. Perhaps we could actually do the best for the country......on some issues there are some in the Con party who are closer to some in Labour. I also think that Labour will "split", or should do so, but I cannot really see a separate 'middle of the road/slightly left of centre/so dem party forming or doing anything ...just socialist Labour remaining |
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 2, 2015 5:00:21 GMT
Time for those on the left of the Party to rally behind Corbyn which they are doing . Time for those like me who vehemently oppose him to stand up and be counted . I don't agree with hardly any of his ideas ...... I am anti CND . I am against same sex marriage . I am against anti austerity but would prefer a more moderate payment plan . I am against mass immigration . I am against taxing the wealthiest to force them offshore . I think that all our UK citizens should be forced into earning their benefits if fit to do so . We wouldn't need foreign workers to take up the slack . I would stop child benefit after the second child . I would increase the minimum wage . I would renationalise the water companies , gas and electricity . I would invest in British jobs for British kids . I would reintroduce apprentiships and I would build more affordable council houses and prevent their sale in the future. I would abandon HS2 rail link. There are many other points I could provide to clearly show my differences with the far left of the party , but the purpose of the thread is merely to highlight the differences rather than provoke an argument to the contrary of my thoughts . I know that there are many in this country that would flock back to Labour instead of going down the UKIP route should some of these ideas be adopted by the new leader. Unfortunately , I fear that this is not going to happen . The Labour Party faces years in the wilderness . Basing election campaigns almost solely of the wellbeing of the NHS is not going to win you elections on its own . It has to be more diverse and pragmatic . More inventive and dynamic . The way it is currently going is catastrophic . A complete shambles . Mumf Good post I can agree with 95% of tgat Mumf ,which Imho is as near as people can realisically get. Interesting times, politically. I think that THE EU is not as United as it would like to believe and migration the Eurozone/Non eurozone amongst other issues will be divisive in the future. The Greek and Scottish issues have not been resolved I don't want to misdirect your thread but the In/out EU issue is the most important for me, so a clear stance on that needs including The experiment is a progressive process as we move to full political union .... we both have reservations about this, but I believe that we cannot be in and at the same time retain independent policy , on such issues as freemovement. I can understand the idea that we are better in, but think it is impossible.Corbyn has a dilemma on this. Corbyn has short term and longer term goals, as we all do. His issue with the royal family he says "can wait". In this respect I agree with your nationalisation of the utilities (and even public transport ) but I think that would have to wait....we have been led to believe that only private ownership is efficient so at the moment public ownership, I believe would put voters off. I agree with job creation, innovation support but also we need an approach to the treatment of the elderly. I think that Corbyn should be elected leader as a conviction politician, and he really has exposed the shallowness of the reduction of Labour as a Slightly left of centre PR business/organisation/company. Unfortunately Mumf, you hit the nail on the head in one of your earlier post. Though education, media, drip - drip, political correctness, over tolerance etc, we can no longer think outside the box, think independently nor control (sone of) our destiny. Reform of the Electoral system and the House of Lords need to be included for me, as crucial issues, do that the Govt actually reflects the electorate as far as possible. Of course those in the big two parties will keep telling us that this cannot be done, as it gives strong Govt. In actuality it just gives the best insurance/or hope of power for them and their families. Reform would encourage smaller parties, and eventually some sort of concensus Govt, instead of the usual , us and them, left and right, which we are led to believe, is the only way. Perhaps we could actually do the best for the country......on some issues there are some in the Con party who are closer than some in Labour on some issues. I also think that Labour will split, or should do so. They did that once before , the lib dems are what's left of the SDP . Nothing much to argue about with mumfs list at all , the problem with relaunching a new centre left party is it nwill always split the remaining labour vote . I think the problem labour have is the fact that they are funded by the unions and will always be subjected to a disproportionate amount of influence . Most voters these days are looking for centrist policies and good governance . Osborn will secure another Tory government victory if he meets his target of a balanced budget by 2019 |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 2, 2015 5:01:41 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 2, 2015 5:13:50 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 2, 2015 6:28:02 GMT
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Aug 2, 2015 7:28:26 GMT
Labour isn't working anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 7:39:54 GMT
VOTE MUMF 
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 2, 2015 7:44:12 GMT
VOTE MUMF Mumf has now joined the right wingers in the knitting club ( pending ) . His politics have taken a warmly welcomed lurch to the right  |
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Aug 2, 2015 7:47:14 GMT
VOTE MUMF Mumf has now joined the right wingers in the knitting club ( pending ) . His politics have taken a warmly welcomed lurch to the right I'm actually quite disturbed to find myself to be more left wing than Mumf. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 7:52:55 GMT
Time for those on the left of the Party to rally behind Corbyn which they are doing . Time for those like me who vehemently oppose him to stand up and be counted . I don't agree with hardly any of his ideas ...... I am anti CND . I am against same sex marriage . I am against anti austerity but would prefer a more moderate payment plan . I am against mass immigration . I am against taxing the wealthiest to force them offshore . I think that all our UK citizens should be forced into earning their benefits if fit to do so . We wouldn't need foreign workers to take up the slack . I would stop child benefit after the second child . I would increase the minimum wage . I would renationalise the water companies , gas and electricity . I would invest in British jobs for British kids . I would reintroduce apprentiships and I would build more affordable council houses and prevent their sale in the future. I would abandon HS2 rail link. There are many other points I could provide to clearly show my differences with the far left of the party , but the purpose of the thread is merely to highlight the differences rather than provoke an argument to the contrary of my thoughts . I know that there are many in this country that would flock back to Labour instead of going down the UKIP route should some of these ideas be adopted by the new leader. Unfortunately , I fear that this is not going to happen . The Labour Party faces years in the wilderness . Basing election campaigns almost solely of the wellbeing of the NHS is not going to win you elections on its own . It has to be more diverse and pragmatic . More inventive and dynamic . The way it is currently going is catastrophic . A complete shambles . Mumf MUMF for PM... |
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 2, 2015 7:55:08 GMT
Mumf has now joined the right wingers in the knitting club ( pending ) . His politics have taken a warmly welcomed lurch to the right I'm actually quite disturbed to find myself to be more left wing than Mumf. Well it must mean the right have won the ideological arguments , huddy the next domino to fall |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 2, 2015 7:57:08 GMT
Corbyn isn't hard left he's simply not a neo-liberal. The Tories and Blairite Labour aren't fighting over the centre ground, they're all properly right wing, make no mistake. Corbyn is also extremely shrewd and progressive, not at all the dinosaur he's portrayed as. Spot on here and if nothing else it displays how out of touch the OP is with politics. |
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 2, 2015 8:05:16 GMT
Corbyn isn't hard left he's simply not a neo-liberal. The Tories and Blairite Labour aren't fighting over the centre ground, they're all properly right wing, make no mistake. Corbyn is also extremely shrewd and progressive, not at all the dinosaur he's portrayed as. Spot on here and if nothing else it displays how out of touch the OP is with politics. Actually he's probably reflecting popular opinion (excepting, I think, the same sex marriage part). For sure he's disconnected with your politics - but that's fair enough. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 2, 2015 8:07:53 GMT
Spot on here and if nothing else it displays how out of touch the OP is with politics. Actually he's probably reflecting popular opinion (excepting, I think, the same sex marriage part). For sure he's disconnected with your politics - but that's fair enough. Corbyn is not "hard left". The old centre left ground has been swallowed up by the Blairites. That was the point I'm making. |
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 2, 2015 8:29:50 GMT
Actually he's probably reflecting popular opinion (excepting, I think, the same sex marriage part). For sure he's disconnected with your politics - but that's fair enough. Corbyn is not "hard left". The old centre left ground has been swallowed up by the Blairites. That was the point I'm making. Got you - he's not reflecting current left wing political thinking. What is "hard left"? It's a subjective rather than an objective thing. Corbyn is certainly occupying the ground you refer to, whatever it's called. And you are spot on about the fight for the centre "neo-liberal" space - or whatever folk want to call that. The thing is, the reason there is a fight for that is because that is where elections are won and lost. If labour decide they want to pitch their banner outside that area, they are going to be out of power for a long time to come. And in regards to this thread - should labour split? It's possible, but unlikely. The experience (and subsequent failure) of the SDP split is too fresh in the memory and the schisms in Labour at that time were far more acute then than now. |
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Aug 2, 2015 8:30:15 GMT
Corbyn isn't hard left he's simply not a neo-liberal. The Tories and Blairite Labour aren't fighting over the centre ground, they're all properly right wing, make no mistake. Corbyn is also extremely shrewd and progressive, not at all the dinosaur he's portrayed as. Spot on here and if nothing else it displays how out of touch the OP is with politics. Would that be the politics of theory, or that of real life? |
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Post by salopstick on Aug 2, 2015 8:30:31 GMT
The British voters won't elect someone with a beard as PM
he is doomed
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 8:33:40 GMT
Time for those on the left of the Party to rally behind Corbyn which they are doing . Time for those like me who vehemently oppose him to stand up and be counted . I don't agree with hardly any of his ideas ...... I am anti CND . I am against same sex marriage . I am against anti austerity but would prefer a more moderate payment plan . I am against mass immigration . I am against taxing the wealthiest to force them offshore . I think that all our UK citizens should be forced into earning their benefits if fit to do so . We wouldn't need foreign workers to take up the slack . I would stop child benefit after the second child . I would increase the minimum wage . I would renationalise the water companies , gas and electricity . I would invest in British jobs for British kids . I would reintroduce apprentiships and I would build more affordable council houses and prevent their sale in the future. I would abandon HS2 rail link. There are many other points I could provide to clearly show my differences with the far left of the party , but the purpose of the thread is merely to highlight the differences rather than provoke an argument to the contrary of my thoughts . I know that there are many in this country that would flock back to Labour instead of going down the UKIP route should some of these ideas be adopted by the new leader. Unfortunately , I fear that this is not going to happen . The Labour Party faces years in the wilderness . Basing election campaigns almost solely of the wellbeing of the NHS is not going to win you elections on its own . It has to be more diverse and pragmatic . More inventive and dynamic . The way it is currently going is catastrophic . A complete shambles . Mumf Against. Anti austerity mumf ??. I'm still trying to grasp that one Well rather than say I am pro austerity I preferred to describe it in the way I have. I think we should pay off our debt rather q quickly, but not quite as quickly as we are doing. Austerity measures tend to affect those at the bottom of society most. I hope that makes more sense. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 2, 2015 8:33:45 GMT
Actually he's probably reflecting popular opinion (excepting, I think, the same sex marriage part). For sure he's disconnected with your politics - but that's fair enough. Corbyn is not "hard left". The old centre left ground has been swallowed up by the Blairites. That was the point I'm making. You are right , except that the public's perception of Corbyn as Far left, driven by the media, will be close to Mumf's view.The perception may prove to be more important than the reality, except for those who wish to debate the issue. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 8:43:29 GMT
Corbyn isn't hard left he's simply not a neo-liberal. The Tories and Blairite Labour aren't fighting over the centre ground, they're all properly right wing, make no mistake. Corbyn is also extremely shrewd and progressive, not at all the dinosaur he's portrayed as. Corbyn is not shrewd at all . No western G8 country leader should be CND and be advocating it . He is , as a result , ....unelectable . The Labour Party should have prevented his entry in this race immediately . In modern day politics he is far left . In the 1970's he would be described as to the left of centre . It is not 1970 however. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 9:00:09 GMT
Corbyn isn't hard left he's simply not a neo-liberal. The Tories and Blairite Labour aren't fighting over the centre ground, they're all properly right wing, make no mistake. Corbyn is also extremely shrewd and progressive, not at all the dinosaur he's portrayed as. Spot on here and if nothing else it displays how out of touch the OP is with politics.  You know how to tell'm huddy  |
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 2, 2015 9:02:24 GMT
Against. Anti austerity mumf ??. I'm still trying to grasp that one Well rather than say I am pro austerity I preferred to describe it in the way I have. I think we should pay off our debt rather q quickly, but not quite as quickly as we are doing. Austerity measures tend to affect those at the bottom of society most. I hope that makes more sense. Sorry I was being facetious , against anti austerity is a bit misleading , I've told you about drinking that parsnip wine late on |
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Post by skip on Aug 2, 2015 9:17:02 GMT
Labour has always been two parties. For example Tony Benn in his diaries spoke candidly of the Labour right and his occasional forays into it regardless that the media had him pinned down as Hard Left, which lets face it is easier than bothering to truly understanding someone's position. Pour changer. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 9:28:28 GMT
Well rather than say I am pro austerity I preferred to describe it in the way I have. I think we should pay off our debt rather q quickly, but not quite as quickly as we are doing. Austerity measures tend to affect those at the bottom of society most. I hope that makes more sense. Sorry I was being facetious , against anti austerity is a bit misleading , I've told you about drinking that parsnip wine late on Well maybe I was wrong about vote mumf....I think we need more austerity to pay it off quicker, but not through the same channels as dosey Dave seems to think |
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