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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 21:36:04 GMT
Should Mr Scholes be sent this, and asked for response?[/quote]
That's the problem, you don't get a response from anyone.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 15, 2015 21:42:48 GMT
Seems like there is a serious content issue on the website. This is the responsibility of the the Marketing Head. The responsibility of the ailing merchandise deliverables should fall under the Commercial Head. It sounds to me as though the club is extremely complacent or naive in relation to how it should be performing and so clearly fails to understand the way these sort of things should be run on a day to day world class level. Quite frankly, we have all heard the same complaints being levelled at the club for years, season after season. In my experience I have found that these problems are almost always down to bang average employees in these sorts of key roles (Commercial & Marketing Heads). People who ppromise the earth and through a genuine lack of job experience, fail to deliver time after time. The CEO should be looking at the staffing issues and should strongly consider appointing individuals who have proven track record in the following areas: For web) delivering live and constantly updating/sticky web content that both engages and stimulates users and that perhaps become a platform for fan discussion/opinion For merchandise) strong negotiators/procurement officers who install prompt delivery/stock levels procedures, For PR) working with Merch/Marketing heads to deliver unique fan goodwill and positive club community opportunities. Having had experience in a world class events company (which is essentially what SCFC is) I know only too well that truly good people are very hard to find and bullshitters who interview well and promise the earth are the norm. There are far too many negative stories coming out of the club for there to be no smoke without fire on these important customer touchpoints. The negative image and "bad smell" that arises from these continual failed opportunities really do come to define the fan malaise that seems to define and surround the clubs off pitch persona. OK. So we are the club's customers. Albeit on a forum, there is pretty widespread opinion that things aren't working as they should, in a number of different areas. In my line of work, should this be brought to the attention of the CEO, there would at the very least, be an internal process undertaken whereby the complaints would be reviewed, to decide whether they were reasonable - and if so, whose areas are responsible? - and a formale review takes place. Should Mr Scholes be sent this, and asked for response? Ahh, tea 'n' biscuits with Tone, eh. You go in full of bravado, and somehow, to misquote Brian Clough, you talk about it for 20 minutes and then decide to do what Scholes wanted in the first place. See scfcsc for more details.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 21:45:57 GMT
OK. So we are the club's customers. Albeit on a forum, there is pretty widespread opinion that things aren't working as they should, in a number of different areas. In my line of work, should this be brought to the attention of the CEO, there would at the very least, be an internal process undertaken whereby the complaints would be reviewed, to decide whether they were reasonable - and if so, whose areas are responsible? - and a formale review takes place. Should Mr Scholes be sent this, and asked for response? Ahh, tea 'n' biscuits with Tone, eh. You go in full of bravado, and somehow, to misquote Brian Clough, you talk about it for 20 minutes and then decide to do what Scholes wanted in the first place. See scfcsc for more details. Serious question, Momo. Have you got direct experience of dealing with TS??
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 15, 2015 21:49:25 GMT
Ahh, tea 'n' biscuits with Tone, eh. You go in full of bravado, and somehow, to misquote Brian Clough, you talk about it for 20 minutes and then decide to do what Scholes wanted in the first place. See scfcsc for more details. Serious question, Momo. Have you got direct experience of dealing with TS?? Yes. Like shaking hands with a dead tulip and dealing with a dopey rattlesnake.
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Post by debabelizer on Jul 15, 2015 22:17:47 GMT
Seems like there is a serious content issue on the website. This is the responsibility of the the Marketing Head. The responsibility of the ailing merchandise deliverables should fall under the Commercial Head. It sounds to me as though the club is extremely complacent or naive in relation to how it should be performing and so clearly fails to understand the way these sort of things should be run on a day to day world class level. Quite frankly, we have all heard the same complaints being levelled at the club for years, season after season. In my experience I have found that these problems are almost always down to bang average employees in these sorts of key roles (Commercial & Marketing Heads). People who ppromise the earth and through a genuine lack of job experience, fail to deliver time after time. The CEO should be looking at the staffing issues and should strongly consider appointing individuals who have proven track record in the following areas: For web) delivering live and constantly updating/sticky web content that both engages and stimulates users and that perhaps become a platform for fan discussion/opinion For merchandise) strong negotiators/procurement officers who install prompt delivery/stock levels procedures, For PR) working with Merch/Marketing heads to deliver unique fan goodwill and positive club community opportunities. Having had experience in a world class events company (which is essentially what SCFC is) I know only too well that truly good people are very hard to find and bullshitters who interview well and promise the earth are the norm. There are far too many negative stories coming out of the club for there to be no smoke without fire on these important customer touchpoints. The negative image and "bad smell" that arises from these continual failed opportunities really do come to define the fan malaise that seems to define and surround the clubs off pitch persona. OK. So we are the club's customers. Albeit on a forum, there is pretty widespread opinion that things aren't working as they should, in a number of different areas. In my line of work, should this be brought to the attention of the CEO, there would at the very least, be an internal process undertaken whereby the complaints would be reviewed, to decide whether they were reasonable - and if so, whose areas are responsible? - and a formale review takes place. Should Mr Scholes be sent this, and asked for response? The club first needs to determine where the actual line in the sand is, not just react to a few of us discussing the issue on a fans forum. SCFC should be implementing and undertaking thorough customer satisfaction surveys if it wishes to improve performance. What we are discussing on here is not a representative sample of the clubs customers, so it would be very interesting to know how seriously they take this process, if indeed they engage in any form of CS programme at all. Therefore question for Mr. Scholes I suspect, is:
how does the club conduct its customer satisfaction surveys in the first instance, and what solid conclusions emerge from the resulting data sample?Of course it may be totally understandable to learn that deep down the club really doesn't take the fan side of the business too seriously at all. When you look at the huge revenues coming in from TV, compared to fan revenues, is the club actually that determined to deliver a focussed customer experience? Or is it just paying lip service to fans? I'm not so sure where it stands to be honest. The lack of stadium expansion and ambition is starting to become questionable, almost irritating in my view. A motivated Commercial department should easily be able to sell out the extra seats, and we really should be looking at a second tier Boothen End in my view, never mind corners. A good head of Commercial should be banging on Peter Coates office door, demanding this stadium expansion and arguing the toss with him if he disagrees. Again, the ambition to drive the club forward does not seem to be there based on the evidence that we all see. Maybe it is time for Tony Scholes to make way for a new more ambitious CEO to take us, very much like Mark Hughes has done on the pitch, to the next level off the pitch? I for one would like to see some stronger more innovative leadership in this area. We have an opportunity right here and now to push on. I say let's take it. One thing is for certain, the silly TV money will not be there forever, but the fanbase will. However, at what size that fanbase stabilises at over the next 40 years or so will be very much determined by the actions and plans that SCFC's leaders implement over the next 1 or 2 years. We really should be trying to grow the fanbase right now, particularly as we are absolutely raking it in. The current business setup is clearly very comfortable and would subsequently fail to challenge any decent Commercial team in any way, shape or form. It's essentially a flabby, soft and weak department that is lacking the confidence to do a lot more.
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Post by ashleyscfc on Jul 15, 2015 22:24:20 GMT
I know it's been said, but one of the simplest points to make is look at the media, news, care, attention, interaction and experience that come out of Orlando City in comparison to us?
Why can't we run an exchange program with some of their staff? It's embarrassing how far ahead/professional they are in comparison
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Post by Olgrligm on Jul 15, 2015 22:35:11 GMT
I would like to see Stoke hire somebody to make us a website, instead of sticking with Premium TV, if that's what they're still called. There's too much going on on the site, it's a pain to navigate and I don't think it would be any worse off if you get rid of all the fancy bits and just had a list of news headlines. If, for example, I go to the main page now:
The news stories are on a fancy sliding menu that's a pain to operate and worsens the performance of the site. It only shows three news stories. The rest of the news stories are in a little box below that also has a fancy list that slides across the page. You then have two annoying rows moving out of sync.
Next to that, you have the next fixture. Fair enough, no complaints there. There are two boxes adjacent to this, one above and one below, that just show absolute nonsense in my browser. I suspect these are adverts.
Below that you have a load of useless flashy stuff that I never bother to scroll down to, but which is slowing the page down. A fancy interactive graph showing recent form. A fancy interactive gallery of pictures. A fancy interactive league table, nestled at the bottom. A poll that nobody ever uses and an annoying acknowledgement of the club's non-anonymous blog. There's also a pointlessly flashy interactive list of player profiles.
Oh, and the menu bars at the top are a bit of a pain, too.
This is the same model used by lots of different clubs and it's just rubbish.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 22:46:47 GMT
I would like to see Stoke hire somebody to make us a website, instead of sticking with Premium TV, if that's what they're still called. There's too much going on on the site, it's a pain to navigate and I don't think it would be any worse off if you get rid of all the fancy bits and just had a list of news headlines. If, for example, I go to the main page now: The news stories are on a fancy sliding menu that's a pain to operate and worsens the performance of the site. It only shows three news stories. The rest of the news stories are in a little box below that also has a fancy list that slides across the page. You then have two annoying rows moving out of sync. Next to that, you have the next fixture. Fair enough, no complaints there. There are two boxes adjacent to this, one above and one below, that just show absolute nonsense in my browser. I suspect these are adverts. Below that you have a load of useless flashy stuff that I never bother to scroll down to, but which is slowing the page down. A fancy interactive graph showing recent form. A fancy interactive gallery of pictures. A fancy interactive league table, nestled at the bottom. A poll that nobody ever uses and an annoying acknowledgement of the club's non-anonymous blog. There's also a pointlessly flashy interactive list of player profiles. Oh, and the menu bars at the top are a bit of a pain, too. This is the same model used by lots of different clubs and it's just rubbish. I know of a good web business that would give their right arm to do this - one of the directors is a big Stoke fan too. Web presence is key these days. Get it wrong, you'll lose people. Look at the Sentinel site.
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Post by debabelizer on Jul 15, 2015 23:08:11 GMT
I would like to see Stoke hire somebody to make us a website, instead of sticking with Premium TV, if that's what they're still called. There's too much going on on the site, it's a pain to navigate and I don't think it would be any worse off if you get rid of all the fancy bits and just had a list of news headlines. If, for example, I go to the main page now: The news stories are on a fancy sliding menu that's a pain to operate and worsens the performance of the site. It only shows three news stories. The rest of the news stories are in a little box below that also has a fancy list that slides across the page. You then have two annoying rows moving out of sync. Next to that, you have the next fixture. Fair enough, no complaints there. There are two boxes adjacent to this, one above and one below, that just show absolute nonsense in my browser. I suspect these are adverts. Below that you have a load of useless flashy stuff that I never bother to scroll down to, but which is slowing the page down. A fancy interactive graph showing recent form. A fancy interactive gallery of pictures. A fancy interactive league table, nestled at the bottom. A poll that nobody ever uses and an annoying acknowledgement of the club's non-anonymous blog. There's also a pointlessly flashy interactive list of player profiles. Oh, and the menu bars at the top are a bit of a pain, too. This is the same model used by lots of different clubs and it's just rubbish. I know of a good web business that would give their right arm to do this - one of the directors is a big Stoke fan too. Web presence is key these days. Get it wrong, you'll lose people. Look at the Sentinel site. It's not the webdev business that is key here, although that is a part. I see the real issue as one of content. A global business like SCFC should have an open newsroom type department that delivers up to the minute content/analysis and opinion 24/7. Part of this dept. should also reach out to the global SCFC community in a much more creative and determined way. I'm certain the issues with the Merch may well be out of the clubs hands as we are a single piece of background in the overall Premiership jigsaw, however a fierce procurement principal can build lets say "strong incentives" into all our supplier relations, to ensure deliverables are very much guaranteed on our terms. Merch is a real tough one, sounds like it should be a doddle...it's far from it.
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Post by ashleyscfc on Jul 15, 2015 23:31:20 GMT
I know of a good web business that would give their right arm to do this - one of the directors is a big Stoke fan too. Web presence is key these days. Get it wrong, you'll lose people. Look at the Sentinel site. It's not the webdev business that is key here, although that is a part. I see the real issue as one of content. A global business like SCFC should have an open newsroom type department that delivers up to the minute content/analysis and opinion 24/7. Part of this dept. should also reach out to the global SCFC community in a much more creative and determined way. I'm certain the issues with the Merch may well be out of the clubs hands as we are a single piece of background in the overall Premiership jigsaw, however a fierce procurement principal can build lets say "strong incentives" into all our supplier relations, to ensure deliverables are very much guaranteed on our terms. Merch is a real tough one, sounds like it should be a doddle...it's far from it. All great points. Often wondered why there's not a fan/unofficial site that picks up where the official site fails. Considered setting one up a few times. I'm sure there's a market for it, especially as anything is better than the official site
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Post by debabelizer on Jul 15, 2015 23:50:42 GMT
It's not the webdev business that is key here, although that is a part. I see the real issue as one of content. A global business like SCFC should have an open newsroom type department that delivers up to the minute content/analysis and opinion 24/7. Part of this dept. should also reach out to the global SCFC community in a much more creative and determined way. I'm certain the issues with the Merch may well be out of the clubs hands as we are a single piece of background in the overall Premiership jigsaw, however a fierce procurement principal can build lets say "strong incentives" into all our supplier relations, to ensure deliverables are very much guaranteed on our terms. Merch is a real tough one, sounds like it should be a doddle...it's far from it. All great points. Often wondered why there's not a fan/unofficial site that picks up where the official site fails. Considered setting one up a few times. I'm sure there's a market for it, especially as anything is better than the official site I can assure you, its not as easy as you think. Getting design, branding, news, video, picture desk, content, pr, merchandise, ticketing, payment and everything else working well on one website is a very intensive exercise indeed.
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Post by knowles on Jul 16, 2015 1:16:07 GMT
The website is just a off the shelf CMS system sold to most premier league clubs of our size. Based on what I've seen none of them know what the fuck their doing. It's embarrassing seeing how sister club Orlando City handles PR, social media, fan experience, ok presence etc in comparison. Absolutely spot on. Orlando have just posted a goal from their friendly with West Brom on facebook, just minutes after it hit the back of the net. Whilst I realise there are licensing issues for PL games our coverage is atrocious. 370,000 like Orlando's facebook page and only 155,000 more like the page of a team who are in the 'best league in the world', beamed around the world to billions. We need to learn to be interactive, show unique sides to the club and get fans feeling like they are part of something. Manchester City took their media department to a different stratosphere about five years ago and other clubs have since followed suit. Southampton are another club who do it well, and they have double the number of fans/followers on facebook than Stoke. It's really not hard to take us to the next level and surely someone with a good pitch can coax a bit of money from the club to really drive us on in this department. The outlay will be insignificant when compared to the benefits. I find it sad that one of our two main club journalists isn't even a Stoke fan.
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Post by ange1 on Jul 16, 2015 1:16:42 GMT
I have read this thread with interest. Some of the points are sadly valid and as usual, some are ill informed. I will bring the points of concern to Tony Scholes attention and hopefully he will look into all the points raised.
Whilst some of you think the Supporters Council is useless (at best) I believe it is currently the best way to bring important matters like this to the attention of those who can "fix" matters. Those in positions able to change things tend to respond more readily to people rather than messages via a forum often written by those with assumed names.
My attempts may of course be fruitless, but I will speak to the CEO after the tournament next week and report back.
One point you may not appreciate is that Stoke have a very small media and PR team compared to other Premier League clubs and in my opinion do not have the capacity to achieve what we all feel should be the norm. I look forward to your further comments, even yours Momo, they always brighten my day
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Post by knowles on Jul 16, 2015 1:19:28 GMT
One point you may not appreciate is that Stoke have a very small media and PR team compared to other Premier League clubs and in my opinion do not have the capacity to achieve what we all feel should be the norm. I think that's the main issue, Ange. More funding required!
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Post by debabelizer on Jul 16, 2015 1:28:11 GMT
I have read this thread with interest. Some of the points are sadly valid and as usual, some are ill informed. I will bring the points of concern to Tony Scholes attention and hopefully he will look into all the points raised. Whilst some of you think the Supporters Council is useless (at best) I believe it is currently the best way to bring important matters like this to the attention of those who can "fix" matters. Those in positions able to change things tend to respond more readily to people rather than messages via a forum often written by those with assumed names. My attempts may of course be fruitless, but I will speak to the CEO after the tournament next week and report back. One point you may not appreciate is that Stoke have a very small media and PR team compared to other Premier League clubs and in my opinion do not have the capacity to achieve what we all feel should be the norm. I look forward to your further comments, even yours Momo, they always brighten my day Why? That's barmy. It really is. How small are we talking?
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Post by Mint Berry Barks on Jul 16, 2015 1:47:07 GMT
I have read this thread with interest. Some of the points are sadly valid and as usual, some are ill informed. I will bring the points of concern to Tony Scholes attention and hopefully he will look into all the points raised. Whilst some of you think the Supporters Council is useless (at best) I believe it is currently the best way to bring important matters like this to the attention of those who can "fix" matters. Those in positions able to change things tend to respond more readily to people rather than messages via a forum often written by those with assumed names. My attempts may of course be fruitless, but I will speak to the CEO after the tournament next week and report back. One point you may not appreciate is that Stoke have a very small media and PR team compared to other Premier League clubs and in my opinion do not have the capacity to achieve what we all feel should be the norm. I look forward to your further comments, even yours Momo, they always brighten my day That's just ridiculous. It wouldn't be too much trouble for a multi-million pound company in a multi-billion pound industry to employ an extra 20 or 30 people to help establish a greater e-presence for the club. I know people who would give their right arm to help promote the club across the internet, to provide imaginative coverage that fans (and would be fans) would appreciate and to just give the club a greater deal of accessibility for the biggest sporting market in the world. It's just so lazy.
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Post by debabelizer on Jul 16, 2015 2:21:24 GMT
I have read this thread with interest. Some of the points are sadly valid and as usual, some are ill informed. I will bring the points of concern to Tony Scholes attention and hopefully he will look into all the points raised. Whilst some of you think the Supporters Council is useless (at best) I believe it is currently the best way to bring important matters like this to the attention of those who can "fix" matters. Those in positions able to change things tend to respond more readily to people rather than messages via a forum often written by those with assumed names. My attempts may of course be fruitless, but I will speak to the CEO after the tournament next week and report back. One point you may not appreciate is that Stoke have a very small media and PR team compared to other Premier League clubs and in my opinion do not have the capacity to achieve what we all feel should be the norm. I look forward to your further comments, even yours Momo, they always brighten my day That's just ridiculous. It wouldn't be too much trouble for a multi-million pound company in a multi-billion pound industry to employ an extra 20 or 30 people to help establish a greater e-presence for the club. I know people who would give their right arm to help promote the club across the internet, to provide imaginative coverage that fans (and would be fans) would appreciate and to just give the club a greater deal of accessibility for the biggest sporting market in the world. It's just so lazy.It's not laziness. It's born from being totally out of any sort of depth or understanding. I'm beginning to think that Momo is right about the club and its management.
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Post by foster on Jul 16, 2015 6:47:45 GMT
Poor by the club. To the point of embarrassing.
Website and all online content should be upto date all the time.
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Post by foster on Jul 16, 2015 6:52:30 GMT
I have read this thread with interest. Some of the points are sadly valid and as usual, some are ill informed. I will bring the points of concern to Tony Scholes attention and hopefully he will look into all the points raised. Whilst some of you think the Supporters Council is useless (at best) I believe it is currently the best way to bring important matters like this to the attention of those who can "fix" matters. Those in positions able to change things tend to respond more readily to people rather than messages via a forum often written by those with assumed names. My attempts may of course be fruitless, but I will speak to the CEO after the tournament next week and report back. One point you may not appreciate is that Stoke have a very small media and PR team compared to other Premier League clubs and in my opinion do not have the capacity to achieve what we all feel should be the norm. I look forward to your further comments, even yours Momo, they always brighten my day Ange, can you pass on the message that for overseas fans such as myself that it's really crap and unacceptable. Feel free to quote me. Then tell them that having no home shirts available is seriously small time. They shouldn't have accepted that from NB. I imagine that with more pressure these could have been available already.
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Post by unknown182 on Jul 16, 2015 7:04:26 GMT
The coding for the website is already there. It literally takes two minutes to change a photo, if that.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jul 16, 2015 7:12:19 GMT
Must all be poppycock
I was told by a ITK in print on here that all transfer business had to stop because the CEO was needed in Singapore as the expert and leader of our huge Far East strategic repositioning of far greater importance than acquiring mere football players .
You must have the wrong man.
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Post by bathstoke on Jul 16, 2015 7:19:23 GMT
IT & PR are very different things. It's all V well wanting Stoke to become state of the art, but if/when we take our institution from it's roots, it will be less of our earthy self, we'll end up with outsiders doing all the specialist jobs. Remember the mantra: Evolution not Revolution
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Post by Stokyo on Jul 16, 2015 7:33:35 GMT
Poor by the club. To the point of embarrassing. Website and all online content should be upto date all the time. Yeah, the official Facebook page is also very behind, sometimes Saturdays match story and pictures will show up on a Tuesday or Wednesday. It's pretty laughable really, if you can't update the information in a timely way then don't bother running it, just looks unprofessional.
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Post by debabelizer on Jul 16, 2015 7:35:06 GMT
IT & PR are very different things. It's all V well wanting Stoke to become state of the art, but if/when we take our institution from it's roots, it will be less of our earthy self, we'll end up with outsiders doing all the specialist jobs. Remember the mantra: Evolution not Revolution To continue in the Darwinian vein, we could just do with a bit of fastracking from amoeba's into reptiles though Bath.
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Post by debabelizer on Jul 16, 2015 7:36:48 GMT
Poor by the club. To the point of embarrassing. Website and all online content should be upto date all the time. Yeah, the official Facebook page is also very behind, sometimes Saturdays match story and pictures will show up on a Tuesday or Wednesday. It's pretty laughable really, if you can't update the information in a timely way then don't bother running it, just looks unprofessional. Even ChiefDelilah's "5 Points" comes faster out of the blocks than that! And he's got a job and christ knows what else on the go.
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Post by ange1 on Jul 16, 2015 7:38:23 GMT
I will pass on all your comments. Foster I will make certain that he hears loud and clear how most people overseas as well as at home feel. Regarding the size off the Media team, full time less than a handful and a couple more part time. Whilst it is no excuse, those employed work hard, but clearly if we want to increase our presence globally, then we need more people to achieve this. A point that will not be lost as a result of your comments I would hope
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Post by bathstoke on Jul 16, 2015 7:40:13 GMT
IT & PR are very different things. It's all V well wanting Stoke to become state of the art, but if/when we take our institution from it's roots, it will be less of our earthy self, we'll end up with outsiders doing all the specialist jobs. Remember the mantra: Evolution not Revolution To continue in the Darwinian vein, we could just do with a bit of fastracking from amoeba's into reptiles though Bath. You cheeky &@st@&d! Some of my distant family were amoebas
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Post by debabelizer on Jul 16, 2015 7:47:00 GMT
To continue in the Darwinian vein, we could just do with a bit of fastracking from amoeba's into reptiles though Bath. You cheeky &@st@&d! Some of my distant family were amoebas I traced my family back to Great Uncle Primeval Slime. He was head of Social Media at an early protist version of SCFC.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jul 16, 2015 8:02:31 GMT
What makes our internet presence even worse is that we're owned by bet365! Someone shoots a 3-pointer in the Maylasian basketball league & the 365 site is instantly updated, there's a stoppage in play in the Peruvian second division, again instantly updated, your horse has just won a race in Dubai, the money is in your account seconds after it's crossed the line.... Yet we've still apparently got Begovic plastered all over the place.
bet365's Twitter account is really good too. They're always tweeting latest news & fun competitons to win freebets & what have you. Stoke on the otherhand tweet very rarely & when they do it's usually some link to that 'SCFC player' thing that no-one has ever paid for.
The only Stoke thing on Twitter that's of any use is that Josh bloke to find out about away ticket sales, but even then you only get an update after half-a-dozen people have been Tweeting all week asking for that update.
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Post by debabelizer on Jul 16, 2015 8:05:16 GMT
What makes our internet presence even worse is that we're owned by bet365! Someone shoots a 3-pointer in the Maylasian basketball league & the 365 site is instantly updated, there's a stoppage in play in the Peruvian second division, again instantly updated, your horse has just won a race in Dubai, the money is in your account seconds after it's crossed the line.... Yet we've still apparently got Begovic plastered all over the place. bet365's Twitter account is really good too. They're always tweeting latest news & fun competitons to win freebets & what have you. Stoke on the otherhand tweet very rarely & when they do it's usually some link to that 'SCFC player' thing that no-one has ever paid for. The only Stoke thing on Twitter that's of any use is that Josh bloke to find out about away ticket sales, but even then you only get an update after half-a-dozen people have been Tweeting all week asking for that update. Great point DC.
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