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Post by metalhead on Jul 22, 2015 8:02:46 GMT
At this point, do we have to consider surgery? I know there's the whole Tiger Woods was shit and Andy Murray was fine argument, but this really is a worry for me.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 8:03:11 GMT
I'd have kept Huth. I'm not the manager though and don't have the detail he has. Cameron isn't really a CH, in fact he just isn't one. Let's forget Tex. Wilson is a CH/LB, not forgetting that he's also "supposed" to be a midfielder. Wolsheid is the managers choice CH I think. And it's actually his natural position. Muni is a CH/LB. So when you look at it properly there are options, but they're just that. Wolsheid is the only other specialist CH. God help us if Shawcross is out for a prolonged period. Ryan and Muniesa are an excellent centre half pairing and first and foremost Muniesa considers himself a centre back, personally I think there's a very good chance he will surpass Ryan and end up going for very big money. At our level, I think Huth as third choice and then Wilson as fourth choice is good enough cover for them. The manager however thinks he's got an even BETTER centre back than Huth in Wollscheid, so in his mind we've IMPROVED the cover - it's his call.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Jul 22, 2015 8:09:36 GMT
We need another Centre Half if we're serious about progressing. Too many doubts about Muniesa playing four games in a row. Too many doubts about Woolschied, Wilson and Cameron playing over an extended period and doubts beginning to creep in over Shawcross' health. It's an absolute dogs dinner in waiting. If Ryan and Muni can play most weeks I'm 100% happy. If as looks likely they can't I'm far from 100% convinced about who we have to fill in.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 22, 2015 8:16:43 GMT
We need another Centre Half if we're serious about progressing. Too many doubts about Muniesa playing four games in a row. Too many doubts about Woolschied, Wilson and Cameron playing over an extended period and doubts beginning to creep in over Shawcross' health. It's an absolute dogs dinner in waiting. If Ryan and Muni can play most weeks I'm 100% happy. If as looks likely they can't I'm far from 100% convinced about who we have to fill in. Agreed. The chances of Muni staying niggle free for most of the season look zero on all known evidence don't they.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 8:23:21 GMT
At this point, do we have to consider surgery? I know there's the whole Tiger Woods was shit and Andy Murray was fine argument, but this really is a worry for me. With backs, you can never tell one way or the other how surgery will pan out. What you do know is that you can't carry on with it in pain and that something *has* to be done, be it more injections or an op. Hopefully with Ryan it is just a precaution to some tightness but it doesn't bode well at all. My gut feeling is that he's had more invasive injections after a summer of rest has not fixed the problem, and the club are keeping quiet.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 8:25:10 GMT
We need another Centre Half if we're serious about progressing. Too many doubts about Muniesa playing four games in a row. Too many doubts about Woolschied, Wilson and Cameron playing over an extended period and doubts beginning to creep in over Shawcross' health. It's an absolute dogs dinner in waiting. When you say there are too many doubts over Wollscheid, do you think that Hughes shares those doubts? I think a lot of people's anxiety over this comes from their own personal lack of faith in Wollscheid's ability and if Huth was still here then people wouldn't be calling for another signing. We've got four centre backs in the squad already, as I said earlier, we can't keep adding to that pool because we don't have any faith in the first choice cover. Essentially people are just saying that Hughes has ballsed up on Wollscheid.
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Post by Gods on Jul 22, 2015 8:28:56 GMT
Plenty of cover my arse. If there's one signing we need to make before the window shuts then it's a decent centre half. Shawcross at best looks like he's going to miss a good few games this season, God forbid he's a long term causality. Muniesa is an option playing alongside Shawcross. Possibly the best one, but he's injury prone and I don't think really up to partnering our other options. I still have nightmares about him and Wolsheid A at Blackburn in the cup. Wolsheid. He's shown glimpses of being a decent player.but I don't think he's up to the level. See above re Blackburn, not to mention his other two total nightmare games. We should never have taken the option to sign him term. Wilson. Tried and tested and possibly our best other centre half (never thought I'd be saying that). However you can usually rely on him for at least stupid error a game and at this level it's from time to time going to cost you he game. Cameron. Saw him play at centre half at Spurs away and saw enough there to tell me he'll never be a Premiership centre half as long as he's got a hole in his arse. And don't give me he played well there in a pre season friendly in Singapore. Teixeira. Who knows, but would you want to go the season with him at centre half? No, neither would I. Come on Hughes, sort it out. Would you be saying that we need another centre back if Huth was still here? The reality of the situation is that we DO have enough cover, the question is, do we have the RIGHT cover? To all intents and purpose Hughes has swapped Huth for Wollscheid, he clearly thinks, all things being equal, that Wollscheid is a BETTER option in his squad than Huth is. Whether Hughes has called this one right or not remains to be seen but we can't have an infinite number of centre backs on the books, simply because we as supporters don't have faith in his judgement. Hughes has nailed his colours to the mast on this one and we have to hope he's called it right. For what it's worth I'm not quite convinced it was the pure football decision you portray. I think Hughes and/or the management team had some kind of falling out with Huth around the time of 'nein cock' gate, perhaps Robert was not sufficiently remorseful? I have no evidence of that only that as a pure football decision it was simply too crackers for words.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 22, 2015 8:34:07 GMT
Think it's definitely true to say that if people rated Wollscheid at all, there'd be a lot less concern about.
And although it's a bit unfair, most people see long runs for Wilson and Cameron (without the glue of Shawcross) as a potential car crash.
It'd be a major surprise if Wilson left as he's probably first-choice cover for LB as it stands too - but until he signs a new deal, who knows? If he did go, maybe it'd open up a bit of room to bring in a Shawcross-type.
It'll be interesting to discover what Hughes thinks is his CB pecking order. Wolly didn't even seem to be 3rd choice by the end of last season, and it's anyone's guess as to where Wilson and Cameron figure there.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 8:38:05 GMT
Would you be saying that we need another centre back if Huth was still here? The reality of the situation is that we DO have enough cover, the question is, do we have the RIGHT cover? To all intents and purpose Hughes has swapped Huth for Wollscheid, he clearly thinks, all things being equal, that Wollscheid is a BETTER option in his squad than Huth is. Whether Hughes has called this one right or not remains to be seen but we can't have an infinite number of centre backs on the books, simply because we as supporters don't have faith in his judgement. Hughes has nailed his colours to the mast on this one and we have to hope he's called it right. For what it's worth I'm not quite convinced it was the pure football decision you portray. I think Hughes and/or the management team had some kind of falling out with Huth around the time of 'nein cock' gate, perhaps Robert was not sufficiently remorseful? I have no evidence of that only that as a pure football decision it was simply too crackers for words. I said 'all things being equal' Gods. Hughes has replaced Huth with Wollscheid, at the end of the day he could of replaced him with somebody else, it's his call and he'll live or die by it, he knew all the factors that were at play when he made the decision. Now if Ryan's back condition has become extremely serious since then, then we now need to be looking at replacement good enough to replace him, which is going to mean spending £10 mil+, which is a completely different kettle of fish altogether.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 22, 2015 8:38:06 GMT
We need another Centre Half if we're serious about progressing. Too many doubts about Muniesa playing four games in a row. Too many doubts about Woolschied, Wilson and Cameron playing over an extended period and doubts beginning to creep in over Shawcross' health. It's an absolute dogs dinner in waiting. When you say there are too many doubts over Wollscheid, do you think that Hughes shares those doubts? I think a lot of people's anxiety over this comes from their own personal lack of faith in Wollscheid's ability and if Huth was still here then people wouldn't be calling for another signing. We've got four centre backs in the squad already, as I said earlier, we can't keep adding to that pool because we don't have any faith in the first choice cover. Essentially people are just saying that Hughes has ballsed up on Wollscheid. I think it is a balls up. Arguably his first as Stke boss. He could possibly get away with it.....but only if Wooly is used very sparingly. Unfortunately if Ryan's crocked we might have to use him more frequently....and IMO that could be a very bad thing.
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Post by chiswickpotter on Jul 22, 2015 8:38:15 GMT
Plenty of cover the bigger risk is the 6 months it could take Bojan to get up to speed which with SN gone exposes the lack of midfield creativity which is chronic Now that's what you call Benji Plenty of cover my arse. If there's one signing we need to make before the window shuts then it's a decent centre half. Shawcross at best looks like he's going to miss a good few games this season, God forbid he's a long term causality. Muniesa is an option playing alongside Shawcross. Possibly the best one, but he's injury prone and I don't think really up to partnering our other options. I still have nightmares about him and Wolsheid A at Blackburn in the cup. Wolsheid. He's shown glimpses of being a decent player.but I don't think he's up to the level. See above re Blackburn, not to mention his other two total nightmare games. We should never have taken the option to sign him term. Wilson. Tried and tested and possibly our best other centre half (never thought I'd be saying that). However you can usually rely on him for at least stupid error a game and at this level it's from time to time going to cost you he game. Cameron. Saw him play at centre half at Spurs away and saw enough there to tell me he'll never be a Premiership centre half as long as he's got a hole in his arse. And don't give me he played well there in a pre season friendly in Singapore. Teixeira. Who knows, but would you want to go the season with him at centre half? No, neither would I. Come on Hughes, sort it out. Hughes has sorted it out - he has signed Wolllscheid, kept Wilson, sold Huth and has now seen Cameron do well at centre back in Singapore. No chance of him buying another centre back unless Ryan is ruled out for months.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 22, 2015 8:41:55 GMT
We need another Centre Half if we're serious about progressing. Too many doubts about Muniesa playing four games in a row. Too many doubts about Woolschied, Wilson and Cameron playing over an extended period and doubts beginning to creep in over Shawcross' health. It's an absolute dogs dinner in waiting. When you say there are too many doubts over Wollscheid, do you think that Hughes shares those doubts? I think a lot of people's anxiety over this comes from their own personal lack of faith in Wollscheid's ability and if Huth was still here then people wouldn't be calling for another signing. We've got four centre backs in the squad already, as I said earlier, we can't keep adding to that pool because we don't have any faith in the first choice cover. Essentially people are just saying that Hughes has ballsed up on Wollscheid. Hughes is going to back his man publically, I'm sure. Whether he harbours any private doubts I'm not sure. He's only human though and those performances against Blackburn and Sunderland must have had some effect as they weren't just bad they were dismal. It's just not about Wollscheid though is it. it's about Wilson and Cameron being good enough for extended runs in the side as the doubts about Muniesa and to a certain extent Shawcross' fitness are not imagined. They are very real.
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Post by lastoftheldk on Jul 22, 2015 8:44:04 GMT
When is Munisea going to have a extended run in the side, ?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 8:48:11 GMT
When you say there are too many doubts over Wollscheid, do you think that Hughes shares those doubts? I think a lot of people's anxiety over this comes from their own personal lack of faith in Wollscheid's ability and if Huth was still here then people wouldn't be calling for another signing. We've got four centre backs in the squad already, as I said earlier, we can't keep adding to that pool because we don't have any faith in the first choice cover. Essentially people are just saying that Hughes has ballsed up on Wollscheid. I think it is a balls up. Arguably his first as Stke boss. He could possibly get away with it.....but only if Wooly is used very sparingly. Unfortunately if Ryan's crocked we might have to use him more frequently....and IMO that could be a very bad thing. I think his first balls up was Bardsley and he's pretty much held his hands up on that one by replacing him within 12 months of signing him. Hughes has made his bed over his choice of centre backs and he's going to have to lie in it, we can't bring even more because we disagree with his decision. Obviously (as I said above) if Ryan's back has become much more serious since that decision was taken, then we're going to have to bring in somebody who is good enough to REPLACE him, which is a completely new discussion.
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Post by j3st3r on Jul 22, 2015 8:51:45 GMT
Love Muni, hes got bags of talent and great elevation.. but Im still to be convinced that hes not a couple of inches too short to be a top centre half....
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 8:59:43 GMT
When you say there are too many doubts over Wollscheid, do you think that Hughes shares those doubts? I think a lot of people's anxiety over this comes from their own personal lack of faith in Wollscheid's ability and if Huth was still here then people wouldn't be calling for another signing. We've got four centre backs in the squad already, as I said earlier, we can't keep adding to that pool because we don't have any faith in the first choice cover. Essentially people are just saying that Hughes has ballsed up on Wollscheid. Hughes is going to back his man publically, I'm sure. Whether he harbours any private doubts I'm not sure. He's only human though and those performances against Blackburn and Sunderland must have had some effect as they weren't just bad they were dismal. It's just not about Wollscheid though is it. it's about Wilson and Cameron being good enough for extended runs in the side as the doubts about Muniesa and to a certain extent Shawcross' fitness are not imagined. They are very real. Thing is Hughes both sold Huth and signed Wollscheid AFTER the Blackburn and Sunderland performances - it was HIS choice on both counts. Hughes clearly thinks he's good enough. Wilson is good enough to be fourth choice at our level. If Ryan's back has since become so serious that he's going to be out for a lengthy period of time, then we'll need to bring in an adequate replacement and that replacement will be 1) extremely expensive and 2) will expect to be a definite first choice starter. Which of course is a new discussion entirely.
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Post by robrigo on Jul 22, 2015 9:01:20 GMT
I agree with Paul Spencer here. I'll be surprised if we sign another centre half this summer. Hughes has chosen Wolly and i'm prepared to give our new German the benefit of the doubt even though it seems I've got a quicker turn of pace.
With Wolly I actually think we need to give him more time to adapt to the premier league. He clearly is an intelligent footballer and I just believe that looking back to last year it was all new to him, new league, new country, new team, new way of playing, and more importantly a variety of different defensive partners. He didnt do great and didnt do terrible but he must improve this season. My concern was his attitude but hopefully that was frustration on his part and he controls it in the future.
Hughes has made his choice, Ryan, Muniesa, Wolly, with Cameron and Wilson as utility players. If Ryan needs an op then it must be done. My question why was why didnt we do it as soon as the season finished?
I think we will sign only one more player...a right winger that costs a bit of money. Hughes said himself that if we get that top player that'll be us done for the window. Another centre half will not come in.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 22, 2015 9:01:26 GMT
I think it is a balls up. Arguably his first as Stke boss. He could possibly get away with it.....but only if Wooly is used very sparingly. Unfortunately if Ryan's crocked we might have to use him more frequently....and IMO that could be a very bad thing. I think his first balls up was Bardsley and he's pretty much held his hands up on that one by replacing him within 12 months of signing him. Hughes has made his bed over his choice of centre backs and he's going to have to lie in it, we can't bring even more because we disagree with his decision. Obviously (as I said above) if Ryan's back has become much more serious since that decision was taken, then we're going to have to bring in somebody who is good enough to REPLACE him, which is a completely new discussion. Wilson and Cameron have only ever been 'cover' in the loosest sense of the word though haven't they. Whatever your views on Pulis, he knew a centre half and he fancied neither there. Hughes seems to think Wilson could do a job but hasn't shown any real desire to use Cameron there. On the face of it of course 3 front line centre halves and two as cover is more than enough but with definite injury doubts about one of the first choice, potential injury doubts about the other, ability doubts about the third in line and the other two being bit part centre halves, I think there's a strong case to strengthen this area.
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Post by andystokey on Jul 22, 2015 9:06:02 GMT
I remember similar doubts about Muni in his first half a season. He's settled in learned the PL ropes and now everyone thinks he's a first choice. I'm willing to give Wooly the benefit of the doubt. A mid season January move is always a risk with a foreign player. To be fair he was thrown in the deep end new country, new team mates, new league, new role. I'd rather see how it pans out before writing him off.
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Post by march4 on Jul 22, 2015 9:25:20 GMT
Why the Hell did we let Huth go?
The decision looks more stupid by the minute.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jul 22, 2015 9:31:36 GMT
When is Munisea going to have a extended run in the side, ? When he can stay fully fit for more than 5 minutes????
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 9:50:19 GMT
Why the Hell did we let Huth go? The decision looks more stupid by the minute. With doubts over Ryans back, it was and remains a stupid decision.
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Post by Gods on Jul 22, 2015 9:59:53 GMT
When is Munisea going to have a extended run in the side, ? I'm sure he would right now if he didn't twang his hamstring each time he pushes it too hard.
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Post by crapslinger on Jul 22, 2015 10:00:54 GMT
Why the Hell did we let Huth go? The decision looks more stupid by the minute. With doubts over Ryans back, it was and remains a stupid decision. A pathetic decision all round, Wolly is the direct replacement for Huth which from what I have seen of him is frightening, the fact the manager dropped him at the end of the season speaks volumes, he reminds me of Steven Tweed he is that bad.
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Post by crapslinger on Jul 22, 2015 10:06:33 GMT
I remember similar doubts about Muni in his first half a season. He's settled in learned the PL ropes and now everyone thinks he's a first choice. I'm willing to give Wooly the benefit of the doubt. A mid season January move is always a risk with a foreign player. To be fair he was thrown in the deep end new country, new team mates, new league, new role. I'd rather see how it pans out before writing him off. Saw enough of him against Blackburn and Sunderland to know he is not fit to lace Huth's boots, I think deep down most Stoke fans have recognised this but are blindly jumping to the managers defence, the worst decision this management team have made since taking over.
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Post by sufolkstokie on Jul 22, 2015 10:08:20 GMT
Well he has named 3 U21 centre halves for the Wrexham game - maybe they are crossing their fingers one of them is ok?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 10:14:29 GMT
I double dare us to give Wolly a decent chance i.e. a full pre-season with his team mates, before we write him off completely!!! We all saw glimpses of his defence ability when he was thrown in at the deep end against Arsenal at the Emirates- seem to recall many giving him the man of the match award. Yes he had a couple of mares most noticeably against Sunderland and he doesn't look the quickest BUT we need to give him time to settle. He's had several different partners and little acclimatisation. Mertersacker doesn't have great pace and also got off to a bad start but he seems to be doing a job for Arsenal and Germany. Big Gerry Taggert had little pace but again managed to do a great job for us. Let's trust Hughes judgement as he's got very little else wrong so far for us.
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Post by ukcstokie on Jul 22, 2015 10:22:59 GMT
Why the Hell did we let Huth go? The decision looks more stupid by the minute. So people's answer to problem of having too many centre backs possibly carrying injuries, is that we should have kept a centre back who'd been injured for much of the last 2 years?
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Post by crapslinger on Jul 22, 2015 10:25:05 GMT
I double dare us to give Wolly a decent chance i.e. a full pre-season with his team mates, before we write him off completely!!! We all saw glimpses of his defence ability when he was thrown in at the deep end against Arsenal at the Emirates- seem to recall many giving him the man of the match award. Yes he had a couple of mares most noticeably against Sunderland and he doesn't look the quickest BUT we need to give him time to settle. He's had several different partners and little acclimatisation. Mertersacker doesn't have great pace and also got off to a bad start but he seems to be doing a job for Arsenal and Germany. Big Gerry Taggert had little pace but again managed to do a great job for us. Let's trust Hughes judgement as he's got very little else wrong so far for us. The fact is that it is not just the fact that he is not an athlete coupled with his lack of pace that is the only issue, his temperament is suspect his teammates do not appear to be comfortable when he plays especially Ryan, he has been bought in as a direct replacement for Robert Huth Hughes had five months to assess his suitability the end result was he was dropped to forth choice CB behind Wilson. I firmly believe that if we have injuries at CB this season we will struggle if he has to play, any player with pace rips him to bits even a lower league second choice striker made him look like a statue.
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Post by crapslinger on Jul 22, 2015 10:26:43 GMT
Why the Hell did we let Huth go? The decision looks more stupid by the minute. So people's answer to problem of having too many centre backs possibly carrying injuries, is that we should have kept a centre back who'd been injured for much of the last 2 years? Was Huth really injured for 2 years ?, from what I saw of him at Leicester for the last five months he looked pretty match fit to me.
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