|
Post by stokefaninde on Jul 26, 2015 1:00:44 GMT
You know what Bayern, I think you are generally a smart man, you can have a decent opinion, and I believe you love our club... But on this 'attitude' thing, you are wrong, simple. Yeah things get said on a football pitch, during a game, every player has their moments, but you feel qualified to label the lad as 'bad attitude'? That's just ridiculous, you don't know him at all - If his attitude was that bad, do you honestly believe LMH would have brought him? If this attitude problem is so bad, and 'stinks' are you saying Hughes as missed it or ignored it?
|
|
|
Post by stokefaninde on Jul 26, 2015 1:02:29 GMT
I don't know the sport like some of you though I feel like my understanding is getting pretty damn close.
I grew up an athlete with pro aspirations before getting hurt and played with many other athletes. I have coached a few sports at the high school level and have a pretty good eye on understanding the difference between an athlete and a person playing the game.
My point is Wollsheid isn't an athlete. He may have some qualities that have gotten him this far but he isn't a fluid athlete. Everything he does is harder for him and creates a ceiling. Just watch the man move and you can understand where I am coming from. Attitude or not it is real hard to make a living in a sport if you have limited athleticism. Not sure what our scouting team saw but I just don't see it. You can talk tactics or anything else but I struggle to understand how Wolly made it to the premier league and is playing for a top half team.
It surprises me that some people don't see that he is out of his depth.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2015 1:04:44 GMT
I don't know the sport like some of you though I feel like my understanding is getting pretty damn close. I grew up an athlete with pro aspirations before getting hurt and played with many other athletes. I have coached a few sports at the high school level and have a pretty good eye on understanding the difference between an athlete and a person playing the game. My point is Wollsheid isn't an athlete. He may have some qualities that have gotten him this far but he isn't a fluid athlete. Everything he does is harder for him and creates a ceiling. Just watch the man move and you can understand where I am coming from. Attitude or not it is real hard to make a living in a sport if you have limited athleticism. Not sure what our scouting team saw but I just don't see it. You can talk tactics or anything else but I struggle to understand how Wolly made it to the premier league and is playing for a top half team. It surprises me that some people don't see that he is out of his depth. Oh he's slow as fuck and immobile but I think you can get around that if you've got the right attitude, know where to improve and are willing to do that. I don't think he is.
|
|
|
Post by stokefaninde on Jul 26, 2015 1:07:59 GMT
Attitude or not the guy has a limited skill set. Not one other person on the team I can say that about.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2015 1:11:34 GMT
He does physically but he can read the game pretty well and his passing is ok. He just needs to work on it a lot. He needs to realise what he is and play within that. You can't play a high line with him in the side, it renders him useless from the off.
|
|
|
Post by stokefaninde on Jul 26, 2015 1:16:29 GMT
Would like to see anyone else in the role. On another note it's nice getting someone who doesn't like a player to list his qualities. What are Cameron's in your opinion?
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2015 1:19:47 GMT
Cameron's best trait his ability to nick the ball. He just seems to win it a lot in tight situations.
|
|
|
Post by stokefaninde on Jul 26, 2015 2:01:56 GMT
Cameron's best trait his ability to nick the ball. He just seems to win it a lot in tight situations. Not to mention his athleticism.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2015 2:09:50 GMT
Cameron's best trait his ability to nick the ball. He just seems to win it a lot in tight situations. Not to mention his athleticism. Well yeah I didn't mention it for a reason! He's a decent athlete but he's not this God that people seem to make out. He's not that quick and he's not that strong and he's not that good in the air. I listed the only trait I like in him!
|
|
|
Post by stokefaninde on Jul 26, 2015 2:41:01 GMT
Not to mention his athleticism. Well yeah I didn't mention it for a reason! He's a decent athlete but he's not this God that people seem to make out. He's not that quick and he's not that strong and he's not that good in the air. I listed the only trait I like in him! A big favorite of mine for obvious reasons. Certainly not a god but definately an important member of the team in my opinion. Not great in the air but not bad.. Quicker than I believe you give him credit for. Has the abililty to make things happen that others in the same place don't though.. He is also more involved than many others in the back which tells me what his mates think of him. With the addition of Johnson don't see him starting however...... From the back I see a starting lineup of Johnson Shawcross Muni Pieters Whelan
Van Ginkel
Prefer him in the Whelan role to Glen myself but admit my fandom could be skewing my judgement. Don't think I am though.. Glen can hold the fort but Geoff is way more dynamic. Nothing that can be argued as a clear win either way, just using my own eyes. In the endgame my point is I see Wilson and Cameron as quality cover for Muni and Ryan. Muni can move for Pieters, Cameron cover for Johnson and Whelan. Wolly and Bardsley as surplus save an emergency. Not sure why they were signed. Bards I understand the mistake in that he was a starting RB in the league and it didn't work out.. Dropping Huth was rediculous in that he would be perfect cover for Ryan but I understand that they couldn't guess that Ryan would be having back problems.... Moral of the story is that our defensive depth isn't as bad as some would say due to the versatility of Cameron, Wilson, and Muniesa. I just don't see where Wolly fits.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2015 2:43:54 GMT
Cameron is an awful centre half and Wilson is excellent for fourth choice.
Wolly is worse.
|
|
|
Post by stokefaninde on Jul 26, 2015 3:05:43 GMT
For remaining where we are I disagree. To progress I see your point. In your opinion, excluding the top six teams, which couldn't use Cameron or Wilson? I believe that the answer to that is none of them.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2015 3:09:05 GMT
I wouldn't trust either of them regularly if we were playing in the Championship......
|
|
|
Post by stokefaninde on Jul 26, 2015 3:16:43 GMT
Can't see how they wouldn't play a role for Aston Villa, Sunderland, Crystal Palace,Swansea or West Bromwich. They aren't world beaters but I disagree with their value to a mid table team.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2015 3:19:51 GMT
Lets get 'em sold then! I think we've made a balls up if we keep Cameron and let Wilson go though, it should be the other way around and with Johnson signing I really can't see why we gave Cameron a new deal.
|
|
|
Post by stokefaninde on Jul 26, 2015 3:39:21 GMT
Versatility and depth. Both have done a job in the best league in the world in different places. They aren't world beaters but if you think they are unfit for the Championship you are grossly exaggerating your point. Two quality managers with very different approaches rate them. My opinion is crap compared to theirs but I see the same thing. Not sure why you don't.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2015 3:44:59 GMT
They are virtually the same player, we only need one of them! And if Bardsley doesn't leave this summer then Geoff's contract is looking very silly. I wouldn't trust either of them at centre back in the Championship. But I don't think either of them are centre backs. One of those managers called Wilson the best left back in the Premier League, now I actually like him at left back but I think I'll take his opinion with a pinch of salt!
|
|
|
Post by stokefaninde on Jul 26, 2015 4:00:53 GMT
Very different players. Wilson covers Muni and Pieters. Cameron covers Ryan. Johnson and Glen. Makes Wolly and Bardsley surplus to requirements, not Geoff or Wilson. Geoff more offensive, Wilson more defensive. Two players that provide cover for 5 positions.
|
|
|
Post by stokeny on Jul 26, 2015 5:11:54 GMT
I don't know the sport like some of you though I feel like my understanding is getting pretty damn close. I grew up an athlete with pro aspirations before getting hurt and played with many other athletes. I have coached a few sports at the high school level and have a pretty good eye on understanding the difference between an athlete and a person playing the game. My point is Wollsheid isn't an athlete. He may have some qualities that have gotten him this far but he isn't a fluid athlete. Everything he does is harder for him and creates a ceiling. Just watch the man move and you can understand where I am coming from. Attitude or not it is real hard to make a living in a sport if you have limited athleticism. Not sure what our scouting team saw but I just don't see it. You can talk tactics or anything else but I struggle to understand how Wolly made it to the premier league and is playing for a top half team. It surprises me that some people don't see that he is out of his depth. sems to me your understanding, is equal to, if not better than many who post on here. In my view Cameron's biggest strength is that he is a very good athlete, probably the best we have. Add to that his attitude which is up there with Whelan and and Walters, and you have a very competent player ( ImMHO) He does not possess the flair of someone like Charlie Adam or ireland ( Bojan stays fit, then he's going to be world class) or the ability to read the game like Shawcross ( I believe Shawcross is limited in some areas of his game, but his positional play and reading of the game are exceptional). If Shawcross was Italian he'd be a legend. Luckily for him he ended up at Stoke, so he'll be a Stoke legend ( which is better right?). Anyway back to Cameron, a solid versatile performer, makes a few mistakes but never goes hiding. Has his limitations but makes the most of his strengths. A very good professional and has been a real asset in his time here. Biggest negative, he doesn't understand cricket, yet loves the Boston Redsocks and baseball!!?
|
|
|
Post by clarkeda on Jul 26, 2015 7:20:20 GMT
I don't think I will. I'm very sceptical about Hughes' ability to spot a defender...... Muniesa, Kompany, Zabaletta, Nelson, Samba. Didn't he get Stephen Warnock playing the best football of his career? Lescott was decent too.
|
|
|
Post by Gods on Jul 26, 2015 8:22:49 GMT
The one glimmer of hope I take with Wollsheid is that for anyone old enough to remember him there is something of a young Steve Bould about him.
Essentially decent at reading the game with an extending leg with which he can nick the ball away at the last moment when all seems lost.
But like the young Steve Bould he is 'Bamby On Ice' in build and movement.
Bould was lampooned by the Stoke fans in his time at the club but Arsenal clearly saw something in him and they were able to build him up and with that complimented by his general hardness enabled him to morph in to a very decent defender.
I guess that is the hope although I am fairly sure Bould had made the transition by the time he was Wollsheid's age.
We'll see I guess.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2015 9:37:00 GMT
I don't think I will. I'm very sceptical about Hughes' ability to spot a defender...... Muniesa, Kompany, Zabaletta, Nelson, Samba. Didn't he get Stephen Warnock playing the best football of his career? Lescott was decent too. One for us which is where the issue lies! And I don't and never did like Samba.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2015 9:39:30 GMT
Very different players. Wilson covers Muni and Pieters. Cameron covers Ryan. Johnson and Glen. Makes Wolly and Bardsley surplus to requirements, not Geoff or Wilson. Geoff more offensive, Wilson more defensive. Two players that provide cover for 5 positions. They are the same player, both cover full back, centre back and midfield. We only need one of those and currently we need someone covering left back more than anything. The rest should be specialist players or someone like Bardsley but good who can play in both full back positions.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Jul 26, 2015 9:49:31 GMT
I don't know the sport like some of you though I feel like my understanding is getting pretty damn close. I grew up an athlete with pro aspirations before getting hurt and played with many other athletes. I have coached a few sports at the high school level and have a pretty good eye on understanding the difference between an athlete and a person playing the game. My point is Wollsheid isn't an athlete. He may have some qualities that have gotten him this far but he isn't a fluid athlete. Everything he does is harder for him and creates a ceiling. Just watch the man move and you can understand where I am coming from. Attitude or not it is real hard to make a living in a sport if you have limited athleticism. Not sure what our scouting team saw but I just don't see it. You can talk tactics or anything else but I struggle to understand how Wolly made it to the premier league and is playing for a top half team. It surprises me that some people don't see that he is out of his depth. I have trying to make this point since we signed him in January on loan, he is simply not an athlete to make it in most sports you have to have athleticism he does not and never will have that basic ingredient especially in English football, strange one this.
|
|
|
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jul 26, 2015 9:53:14 GMT
I don't know the sport like some of you though I feel like my understanding is getting pretty damn close. I grew up an athlete with pro aspirations before getting hurt and played with many other athletes. I have coached a few sports at the high school level and have a pretty good eye on understanding the difference between an athlete and a person playing the game. My point is Wollsheid isn't an athlete. He may have some qualities that have gotten him this far but he isn't a fluid athlete. Everything he does is harder for him and creates a ceiling. Just watch the man move and you can understand where I am coming from. Attitude or not it is real hard to make a living in a sport if you have limited athleticism. Not sure what our scouting team saw but I just don't see it. You can talk tactics or anything else but I struggle to understand how Wolly made it to the premier league and is playing for a top half team. It surprises me that some people don't see that he is out of his depth. Not sure I agree. Try telling that to Inzamam ul Haq
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Jul 26, 2015 10:01:17 GMT
The one glimmer of hope I take with Wollsheid is that for anyone old enough to remember him there is something of a young Steve Bould about him. Essentially decent at reading the game with an extending leg with which he can nick the ball away at the last moment when all seems lost. But like the young Steve Bould he is 'Bamby On Ice' in build and movement. Bould was lampooned by the Stoke fans in his time at the club but Arsenal clearly saw something in him and they were able to build him up and with that complimented by his general hardness enabled him to morph in to a very decent defender. I guess that is the hope although I am fairly sure Bould had made the transition by the time he was Wollsheid's age. We'll see I guess. Correct but as you point out Bouldy was hard as nails even at a young age, unlike Wolfy he did not berate his teammates for every mistake he made, that is something that is not acceptable he has to take responsibility for his own errors, that coupled with his lack of athleticism and general pace will prevent him from been a success in our game.
|
|
|
Post by stokemark on Jul 26, 2015 10:05:03 GMT
For me the issue is across the team now - the clear lack of defensive capabilities
Nzonzi gone, Whelan reaching a certain age is a huge worry in midfield but the signings of Wolly and Johnson adds nothing defensively.
With Ryans injury and a new, very young goalkeeper I sincerely hope Hughes knows what he's doing as I am pretty worried that we are going to be on the end of a fair few tonkings against the better sides unless we strengthen
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2015 10:31:10 GMT
|
|
|
Post by fca47 on Jul 26, 2015 10:31:10 GMT
Bould was always a decent defender, it's just that we played him out of position, right back, most of the time. My problem with Wollscheid is his determination to get the ball, gives the opposition the chance of nicking the ball , all the time, way too ponderous.
|
|
|
Post by ChrisKamarasPerm on Jul 26, 2015 10:38:22 GMT
For me the issue is across the team now - the clear lack of defensive capabilities Nzonzi gone, Whelan reaching a certain age is a huge worry in midfield but the signings of Wolly and Johnson adds nothing defensively. With Ryans injury and a new, very young goalkeeper I sincerely hope Hughes knows what he's doing as I am pretty worried that we are going to be on the end of a fair few tonkings against the better sides unless we strengthen We have been at the end of some tonkings against the better sides anyway. Most of the league are up against it. Nothing changes.
|
|