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Post by Skankmonkey on Jun 11, 2015 13:18:10 GMT
Some familiar faces on here... One might get one or two of our contributors frothing at the mouth! Poster from 1987 election. Looks uncannily like a poster of "the disappeared" from Chile around the same time. Bad taste alarm. I'm off...
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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 12, 2015 12:52:44 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is the only one who should have any business in the Labour party. Suspect Burnham is most likely to win the race and the most likely to blow with the wind later in dodgiest ways. Which *Labour Party? Labour? Real Labour? New Labour? Real New Labour? NeoLabour-X17? (OK...I made the last one up ) But which one will they decide to be? They're like Mr.Benn (the one in the fancy dress shop). Nah you just got Tristram Hunt bang on with NeoLabour X17
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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 12, 2015 13:00:59 GMT
mumfy they're getting too long to quote so... our issue with each other is dead simple. You are a pro-capitalist. I am an anti-capitalist. We're both concerned for people and quite pragmatic. We would naturally sit on opposite sides of the Labour Party, which when it's worked has been a mess of a broad church with both those traditions going on. The post-Blair Labour Party has had so little of my side in, I've looked elsewhere but with my heart still in Labour - and you've done the same swinging towards the Tories. Yes, ish? And yes I would buy a used car from you in fact because you care so damn much about stuff xx
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 12, 2015 14:19:45 GMT
Anybody on the Left with a powerful message will be destroyed & vilified by the (mainly) Right Wing press. Although some 'Left Wing' policies are quite popular with the electorate..NHS, Education, Transport, Redistribution...on the whole 'Left' is a dirty word to some. But when I look at the current Labour Leadership Campaign I despair. Listening to people criticising Ed Milliband & Labours Election Campaign as though they weren't even part of it. What terrible hypocrites. When I hear these people talking about public spending cuts, welfare reform, immigration and Anti European rhetoric I just think Why not just join the Conservative Party. Labour need to offer the electorate something different. How about massive widescale banking reform? An end to off shore tax havens that diddle the UK out of billions of pounds a year. Renationalisation of Gas Electricity & Water and Railways. National conscription of 12 months for all 18 year olds. And the ritual stoning of Arsene Wenger. In fairness to Mr Ed he did try to offer some alternatives. In truth Ed was the last chance of Labour offering anything discernibly left wing in my lifetime. He put clear water between what Labour were offering and what the Tories were. Despite some unique once in a lifetime circumstances going against him in terms of the Liberals and SNP, it was blown out of the water. A lifetime of Blue Tories or Red Tories awaits. The argument was lost a long time ago. Today's decision regarding Orgreave tells you the argument was never a fair fight but the result will stand. The public have been duped and all the while the rich get richer.
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Post by kbillyh on Jun 12, 2015 15:13:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2015 15:47:32 GMT
Seems as though common sense and self preservation may still exist within the Labour party if Corbyn fails to get the number of nominations as is likely . Most Labour political analysts have already reached the same conclusion as I have , that being that in order to win an election , then you have to appoint someone with a much broader appeal . There are no prizes for coming second . Second place is abject failure . His support within the grass roots just shows how many labour supporters have lost touch with reality and overall priority . It's all to do with being a winner , as opposed to being a life long campaigner . I have nothing against the man personally , and the same goes for the other nominations , but out of that crop I do not see any potential leaders capable of winning a general election. Too many of the Labour lefts policies are damaging not just the party , but also the economy and national security . I cannot see the Labour Party winning the next election no matter who they choose . Not until the party matches the Tories plans to limit immigration and impose stricter conditions on benefits will it ever stand a chance . The party resembles more of an international humanity charity , than a traditional socialist movement which is what it is supposed to be . It's supposed to represent the working classes and the trade unionist movement as a whole . It has moved far too much over to the left for it to be come once again a credible force in British politics . Personally , I take no pleasure from all this . I'm not attempting to gloat or to force the point home , but instead I am simply stating the bleeding obvious that many on here seem to be struggling with . "You have to be in it , to win it " is the old adage and this is very true . Big compromises by Labour supporters have to made in order to succeed . Policy changes , voting procedures and other measures need to be tackled with immediate effect . My strong feeling is that none of this will happen and the party will become ever more isolated as a result . It's only long term hope being the growing groundswell of immigrant support which is virtually guaranteed. Gouranga ....
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 15, 2015 13:09:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 14:57:23 GMT
In fairness to Mr Ed he did try to offer some alternatives. In truth Ed was the last chance of Labour offering anything discernibly left wing in my lifetime. He put clear water between what Labour were offering and what the Tories were. Despite some unique once in a lifetime circumstances going against him in terms of the Liberals and SNP, it was blown out of the water. A lifetime of Blue Tories or Red Tories awaits. The argument was lost a long time ago. Today's decision regarding Orgreave tells you the argument was never a fair fight but the result will stand. The public have been duped and all the while the rich get richer. That and he was totally plastic
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Post by penkvillepotter on Jun 15, 2015 15:20:57 GMT
One thing's for sure. If Corbyn got in I could vote Labour knowing that they'd got bugger all chance of winning but at least I wouldn't feel a phoney for voting for them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 15:23:57 GMT
Splendid if you actually like his brand of politics , but not so splendid if you want him to win the next election. There is a place in the party for him , but not at the front of it . The idea is that you win the election , because there are no prizes for coming second . Once you are in power , then you can mould your more socialist type policies into the statute book . The alternative to all this being is that you buy an apartment in Benidorm and go for the 'perma -tan look ' to attract fat widows from Wigan and Blackpool.
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Post by penkvillepotter on Jun 15, 2015 15:31:15 GMT
Your not wrong Mumf but on the other hand voting for Tristam Hunt was the most soulless thing I've ever done. Corbyn won't win anyway so back to Tory Lite.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 15:36:12 GMT
Your not wrong Mumf but on the other hand voting for Tristam Hunt was the most soulless thing I've ever done. Corbyn won't win anyway so back to Tory Lite. I was always told that you never vote for the person , but you vote for his party's politics . Sadly , the parties policies for me have changed so much in the last decade or so it makes life quite uncomfortable and irritating . You have to base your thoughts on the overall package . ....but Tristam is not particularly my cuppa either ...
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 15, 2015 15:38:21 GMT
Splendid if you actually like his brand of politics , but not so splendid if you want him to win the next election. There is a place in the party for him , but not at the front of it . The idea is that you win the election , because there are no prizes for coming second . Once you are in power , then you can mould your more socialist type policies into the statute book . The alternative to all this being is that you buy an apartment in Benidorm and go for the 'perma -tan look ' to attract fat widows from Wigan and Blackpool. His very presence will ensure there is debate on things that the other candidates most likely believe in but would deny with their dying breath if there was a camera close by. It will be good to see Burnham et el cringe when forced to dismiss real Labour values. It will wobble a few heads that is for certain.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 15:46:59 GMT
Splendid if you actually like his brand of politics , but not so splendid if you want him to win the next election. There is a place in the party for him , but not at the front of it . The idea is that you win the election , because there are no prizes for coming second . Once you are in power , then you can mould your more socialist type policies into the statute book . The alternative to all this being is that you buy an apartment in Benidorm and go for the 'perma -tan look ' to attract fat widows from Wigan and Blackpool. His very presence will ensure there is debate on things that the other candidates most likely believe in but would deny with their dying breath if there was a camera close by. It will be good to see Burnham et el cringe when forced to dismiss real Labour values. It will wobble a few heads that is for certain. We all know what he is about . But why is he attempting to become party leader when it will destroy any chance of winning the next election if that happens ....crazy .! The public these days are obsessed by public image .....clothes , cars , image , suave , sophisticated etc etc.... It is not .....Beard , cap , pipe , CND and left wing . This isn't merely my matter of opinion ....sadly it's life Neither of us can change it .
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 15, 2015 15:51:27 GMT
His very presence will ensure there is debate on things that the other candidates most likely believe in but would deny with their dying breath if there was a camera close by. It will be good to see Burnham et el cringe when forced to dismiss real Labour values. It will wobble a few heads that is for certain. We all know what he is about . But why is he attempting to become party leader when it will destroy any chance of winning the next election if that happens ....crazy .! The public these days are obsessed by public image .....clothes , cars , image , suave , sophisticated etc etc.... It is not .....Beard , cap , pipe , CND and left wing . This isn't merely my matter of opinion ....sadly it's life Neither of us can change it . He's not standing for party leader really is he? He's standing to remind the current party about Labour values and attempting to convince them they don't have to be as electorally toxic as Rupert Murdoch tells them they are.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 16:19:04 GMT
We all know what he is about . But why is he attempting to become party leader when it will destroy any chance of winning the next election if that happens ....crazy .! The public these days are obsessed by public image .....clothes , cars , image , suave , sophisticated etc etc.... It is not .....Beard , cap , pipe , CND and left wing . This isn't merely my matter of opinion ....sadly it's life Neither of us can change it . He's not standing for party leader really is he? He's standing to remind the current party about Labour values and attempting to convince them they don't have to be as electorally toxic as Rupert Murdoch tells them they are. So , basically you're saying that if he won he would then he would then stand aside .... A kind of protest in the hope that the next leader would listen to him . Well , My advice to him would be don't bother . We need winners not campaigners . Members of the Labour Party should not be using this election for self gratification. It makes the party look amateurish and second rate....unelectable . I don't disagree he's a good politician , but Jesus , there's a time and a place for everything .
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 15, 2015 16:31:58 GMT
He's not standing for party leader really is he? He's standing to remind the current party about Labour values and attempting to convince them they don't have to be as electorally toxic as Rupert Murdoch tells them they are. So , basically you're saying that if he won he would then he would then stand aside .... A kind of protest in the hope that the next leader would listen to him . Well , My advice to him would be don't bother . We need winners not campaigners . Members of the Labour Party should not be using this election for self gratification. It makes the party look amateurish and second rate....unelectable . I don't disagree he's a good politician , but Jesus , there's a time and a place for everything . The time is now and the place is this election. For debate.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 16:37:50 GMT
So , basically you're saying that if he won he would then he would then stand aside .... A kind of protest in the hope that the next leader would listen to him . Well , My advice to him would be don't bother . We need winners not campaigners . Members of the Labour Party should not be using this election for self gratification. It makes the party look amateurish and second rate....unelectable . I don't disagree he's a good politician , but Jesus , there's a time and a place for everything . The time is now and the place is this election. For debate. No ....I disagree. The debate is to see which candidate has the biggest backing from the party and who is best suited for that role . It is not about how much political leverage Corbyn can achieve by standing for election . He is deliberately making a mockery out of the situation. I repeat ...We all know what he stands for . Why stand up for election if you're not serious enough to take the job on , or capable of winning the election . A completely pointless and counter productive exercise in my view .
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 15, 2015 17:17:31 GMT
The time is now and the place is this election. For debate. No ....I disagree. The debate is to see which candidate has the biggest backing from the party and who is best suited for that role . It is not about how much political leverage Corbyn can achieve by standing for election . He is deliberately making a mockery out of the situation. I repeat ...We all know what he stands for . Why stand up for election if you're not serious enough to take the job on , or capable of winning the election . A completely pointless and counter productive exercise in my view . He is the only candidate suggesting that there is a way other than austerity. Enough of his colleagues have decided that point is worth debating. The beige candidates will now have to defend their positions on austerity making the debate, wider and richer and more importantly about people and not the Westminster bubble.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 17:33:09 GMT
We've been here many times before haven't we , but what have we learned ?
Let's have a chat and broaden the debate but let's still preserve obscure high risk strategies that the vast majority of the British electorate hate ....
Anti austerity measures is a good start , but his overall persona is what I have previously described .
If he can't convince me ,then what chance has he got with the British electorate . It's not even worth a debate to be honest . He might as well just stand outside Westminster with a CND placard and make himself heard that way . His stance on immigration is another issue ,....Defence ...etc etc ....
I could go on ,.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 19:48:46 GMT
Splendid if you actually like his brand of politics , but not so splendid if you want him to win the next election. There is a place in the party for him , but not at the front of it . The idea is that you win the election , because there are no prizes for coming second . Once you are in power , then you can mould your more socialist type policies into the statute book . The alternative to all this being is that you buy an apartment in Benidorm and go for the 'perma -tan look ' to attract fat widows from Wigan and Blackpool. His very presence will ensure there is debate on things that the other candidates most likely believe in but would deny with their dying breath if there was a camera close by. It will be good to see Burnham et el cringe when forced to dismiss real Labour values. It will wobble a few heads that is for certain. He'll put Labour back 30 years, any other view on this is misguided. The country needs strong opposition not a throwback like Corbyn anywhere near the mix. I cant take anybody seriously who has time for his views within the context of an electable Labour Party. Suicide. Madness.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 19:57:45 GMT
The best candidate by far isn't even an MP anymore , a victim of the Scottish Avalanche. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_AlexanderI don't particularly like any of the candidates . None in my view will take the party any further .
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 15, 2015 20:03:36 GMT
His very presence will ensure there is debate on things that the other candidates most likely believe in but would deny with their dying breath if there was a camera close by. It will be good to see Burnham et el cringe when forced to dismiss real Labour values. It will wobble a few heads that is for certain. He'll put Labour back 30 years, any other view on this is misguided. The country needs strong opposition not a throwback like Corbyn anywhere near the mix. I cant take anybody seriously who has time for his views within the context of an electable Labour Party. Suicide. Madness. So you've been brainwashed sufficiently to not only believe that austerity is the ONLY way but to believe so vehemently you feel threatened by an alternative view. I genuinely thought you had more about you than that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 20:18:09 GMT
He'll put Labour back 30 years, any other view on this is misguided. The country needs strong opposition not a throwback like Corbyn anywhere near the mix. I cant take anybody seriously who has time for his views within the context of an electable Labour Party. Suicide. Madness. So you've been brainwashed sufficiently to not only believe that austerity is the ONLY way but to believe so vehemently you feel threatened by an alternative view. I genuinely thought you had more about you than that. As a man, like you, I admire him Sheikhy, but as a pound shop Tony Benn, he's totally unelectable. We need opposition to the Tories not another introspective discussion into what Labour should be. We need pragmatic opposition policies not ideological ones....and fast. I don't agree with austerity, it's been proven not to work but Corbyn is not the only fruit. Hope that explains my view in a little more context mate.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 15, 2015 20:36:52 GMT
So you've been brainwashed sufficiently to not only believe that austerity is the ONLY way but to believe so vehemently you feel threatened by an alternative view. I genuinely thought you had more about you than that. As a man, like you, I admire him Sheikhy, but as a pound shop Tony Benn, he's totally unelectable. We need opposition to the Tories not another introspective discussion into what Labour should be. We need pragmatic opposition policies not ideological ones....and fast. I don't agree with austerity, it's been proven not to work but Corbyn is not the only fruit. Hope that explains my view in a little more context mate. I understand a bit better mate but if Corbyn hadn't stood, austerity and who pays the biggest price wouldn't have even been on the radar in the candidate debates. His presence ensures the other three will be questioned directly on Tory cuts and alternative plans. His presence will basically smoke out the other candidates far more than a cosy beige threesome would have. I maintain it's a very positive development.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 20:42:29 GMT
As a man, like you, I admire him Sheikhy, but as a pound shop Tony Benn, he's totally unelectable. We need opposition to the Tories not another introspective discussion into what Labour should be. We need pragmatic opposition policies not ideological ones....and fast. I don't agree with austerity, it's been proven not to work but Corbyn is not the only fruit. Hope that explains my view in a little more context mate. I understand a bit better mate but if Corbyn hadn't stood, austerity and who pays the biggest price wouldn't have even been on the radar in the candidate debates. His presence ensures the other three will be questioned directly on Tory cuts and alternative plans. His presence will basically smoke out the other candidates far more than a cosy beige threesome would have. I maintain it's a very positive development. Let's see. Possibly the Corbyn "ducking stool" may smoke Burnham out of the long grass. Way to long in the tooth for an effective opposition leader though, Cameron et al would tear him a new arsehole.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 16, 2015 4:14:22 GMT
Splendid if you actually like his brand of politics , but not so splendid if you want him to win the next election. There is a place in the party for him , but not at the front of it . The idea is that you win the election , because there are no prizes for coming second . Once you are in power , then you can mould your more socialist type policies into the statute book . The alternative to all this being is that you buy an apartment in Benidorm and go for the 'perma -tan look ' to attract fat widows from Wigan and Blackpool. His very presence will ensure there is debate on things that the other candidates most likely believe in but would deny with their dying breath if there was a camera close by. It will be good to see Burnham et el cringe when forced to dismiss real Labour values. It will wobble a few heads that is for certain. Including the most important question/decision ( without the benefit of hindsight) which has faced the country since 1939, the EU referendum
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 5:59:02 GMT
Corbyns entry into this election race for leader sends out one clear message . There are still members of this party who are prepared to risk everything in pursuit of their own ideals and by this I specifically mean national security in the form of no nuclear deterrent .
Austerity concerns pale into insignificance when you have someone whose logical thought patterns miss the biggest issue ....that of life/survival.
You may believe that we will never need nuclear weapons , but they never thought that the Titanic would sink .
The Labour Party is a rudderless ship at the moment . It has ' run aground ' and only the highest of tides is likely to ever get it off the rocks . The damage is on a scale of The Concordia , and like its Captain the leader has fucked off admitting defeat .
Captain Corbyn looks like a latter day advert for fish fingers ' Birdseye' , but at least they have a good product to sell and one which the public will buy .
The Labour Party hasn't . The Labour Party has been guilty of allowing the unions and the Left wingers to dominate proceedings . I'm not going to list them all , but let's just concentrate on a few ...The NHS , Immigration , Pro Europe , Austerity measures and apart from the first in that list , it has now proved how unpopular its stance on these subjects are .
People have left in their tens of thousand to UKIP . People are sick and tired of mass immigration and the problems it has caused. People have grave doubts over Europe . Austerity ....people blame the Lbour party for causing it in the first place ......
Labour doesn't need another fucking inquest , it needs a Tony Blair .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 6:52:47 GMT
Corbyns entry into this election race for leader sends out one clear message . There are still members of this party who are prepared to risk everything in pursuit of their own ideals and by this I specifically mean national security in the form of no nuclear deterrent . Austerity concerns pale into insignificance when you have someone whose logical thought patterns miss the biggest issue ....that of life/survival. You may believe that we will never need nuclear weapons , but they never thought that the Titanic would sink . The Labour Party is a rudderless ship at the moment . It has ' run aground ' and only the highest of tides is likely to ever get it off the rocks . The damage is on a scale of The Concordia , and like its Captain the leader has fucked off admitting defeat . Captain Corbyn looks like a latter day advert for fish fingers ' Birdseye' , but at least they have a good product to sell and one which the public will buy . The Labour Party hasn't . The Labour Party has been guilty of allowing the unions and the Left wingers to dominate proceedings . I'm not going to list them all , but let's just concentrate on a few ...The NHS , Immigration , Pro Europe , Austerity measures and apart from the first in that list , it has now proved how unpopular its stance on these subjects are . People have left in their tens of thousand to UKIP . People are sick and tired of mass immigration and the problems it has caused. People have grave doubts over Europe . Austerity ....people blame the Lbour party for causing it in the first place ...... Labour doesn't need another fucking inquest , it needs a Tony Blair . What you are advocating then Mumf is a return to New Labour, a return to the centre ground? The big problem with that is that The Tories are already being and doing "New Labour" as we speak.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 6:56:55 GMT
Not at all...
I bet you can't name me one ''blue rinser" from Home Counties South that can't spot the differences ....
They will always vote Tory . They will never vote Labour .
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