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Post by GrahamHyde on Nov 20, 2014 13:46:01 GMT
I wanted to understand how Ryan's performances this season so far had compared to his previous few seasons both under Hughes and Pulis, so given that I have access to these Opta statistics, I thought I'd create a few charts for you (I'm also quite sad and have too much time on my hands, obviously). The first shows his performances across the vast majority of key defensive areas have improved in the past couple of seasons and, to date, he's having his best season so far. It's worth noting that the previous season's worth of data includes the first 11 games only, so one could argue that we had a tougher start in previous years, but nonetheless I think the findings are pretty conclusive.  Then I wanted to compare how Shawcross is doing to his English counterparts this season in terms of % of tackles and aerial duels won, as well as pass completion. I have compared with Jagielka, Cahill and Chambers, as well as Caulker and Curtis Davies. I wanted to compare with Smalling and Jones as well but their sample sizes were too small as they hadn't played enough games to warrant proper assessment (which should theoretically rule them out of any consideration for the England squad, but we know Roy Hodgson is an absolute fuck wit). You can see how Shawcross excels in winning aerial duels and is third only to Jagielka and Davies in terms of tackles won. Interestingly, Caulker and Cahill win significantly fewer tackles than the rest and Cahill is also behind the curve in terms of winning headers. I haven't included it here either, but there was very little difference in terms of fouls conceded, Shawcross the same as Cahill on 7. However, in terms of pass completion, Shawcross' 75% is the lowest of the lot.  Having watched Stoke week-in, week-out this season, I believe the reason this is lower is potentially a result of playing riskier passes than the others (i.e. opting to play long when the shorter, easier pass may be on). I wanted to test this, so I then looked at passes backwards, forwards and square as a proportion of all passes made in total.  Interestingly, the findings confirmed this hypothesis. Shawcross plays a greater % of forward passes relative to almost all the other players, with the exception of Caulker, with whom his pass completion % is similar (75% vs. 76%). Even a moron would struggle to argue with the point that a pass backwards or square would be completed with more regularity than a pass forwards. And so whilst it it's nigh on impossible to understand what the underlying figures would be if passing difficulty was accounted for, I'd imagine that those %'s listed would be pretty much on par or a lot closer than they otherwise are. So we now know that Shawcross can tackle as well, win headers as well and, arguably, pass as well. Is there any parameter he's largely inferior on? Not as far as I can tell. Oh well, I honestly believe we have the best English centre half at our club right now, let's treasure the little (big) beauty. |
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Post by lordb on Nov 20, 2014 13:47:30 GMT
great post
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Post by 2004 on Nov 20, 2014 13:49:30 GMT
Good post
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Nov 20, 2014 14:04:46 GMT
One thing that does illustrate is just how even more pivotal Ryan has become under Hughes.
I say this because of the amount of long balls he's now playing.
Overall (as we know) we play a much shorter game these days yet Ryan is hitting more long passes and this is due to him being THE player to bring the ball out.
In the past it would have been a much more even split with Huthy but if it needs to go long Ryan's accuracy is relied upon.
This accuracy is actually lost in the stats because he plays more long balls than his peers and I would suggest his passes are the more difficult ones to complete.
As for the rest of it, not too many surprises from our captain: great in the air, tough in the challenge and puts everything on the line in his attempts to prevent a goal.
God bless ya, Skipper!
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Post by Roy Cropper on Nov 20, 2014 16:12:23 GMT
Great work, I love statistics.
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Post by NE8Stokie on Nov 20, 2014 16:34:12 GMT
Think I've just had a sex wee
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 20, 2014 17:30:35 GMT
Great piece of work well done and thanks.
I've always tempered my opinion of how good Ryan is by my being conscious I'm watching through Stoke fan spectacles, but now you have come up with unbiased evidence. It's true that a sample of 11 matches may not be truly representative so I suggest (if I may be so bold) that you look again after 20 matches.
I've also formed a subjective opinion that Ryan is playing better since being under the spot-light for holding. He is now concentrating more on his defending the ball as well as marking the man and IMO is the better for it.
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Post by robwahlmann on Nov 20, 2014 18:15:53 GMT
Confirms what a lot of us have thought! Good!  |
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Post by nott1 on Nov 20, 2014 18:20:04 GMT
Do something useful with this and send it to Hodgson recorded delivery!
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Nov 20, 2014 19:10:05 GMT
Do something useful with this and send it to Hodgson recorded delivery! That would be a waste of an email/stamp/fax with that simpleton in charge. |
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Post by basingstokie on Nov 20, 2014 19:22:17 GMT
Basically proves what we all suspected. Shawcross is the same standard as the national team Cb's. Which makes his continual omission show what a knob Woy is
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Post by malteser68 on Nov 20, 2014 21:59:39 GMT
I wanted to understand how Ryan's performances this season so far had compared to his previous few seasons both under Hughes and Pulis, so given that I have access to these Opta statistics, I thought I'd create a few charts for you (I'm also quite sad and have too much time on my hands, obviously). The first shows his performances across the vast majority of key defensive areas have improved in the past couple of seasons and, to date, he's having his best season so far. It's worth noting that the previous season's worth of data includes the first 11 games only, so one could argue that we had a tougher start in previous years, but nonetheless I think the findings are pretty conclusive. Then I wanted to compare how Shawcross is doing to his English counterparts this season in terms of % of tackles and aerial duels won, as well as pass completion. I have compared with Jagielka, Cahill and Chambers, as well as Caulker and Curtis Davies. I wanted to compare with Smalling and Jones as well but their sample sizes were too small as they hadn't played enough games to warrant proper assessment (which should theoretically rule them out of any consideration for the England squad, but we know Roy Hodgson is an absolute fuck wit). You can see how Shawcross excels in winning aerial duels and is third only to Jagielka and Davies in terms of tackles won. Interestingly, Caulker and Cahill win significantly fewer tackles than the rest and Cahill is also behind the curve in terms of winning headers. I haven't included it here either, but there was very little difference in terms of fouls conceded, Shawcross the same as Cahill on 7. However, in terms of pass completion, Shawcross' 75% is the lowest of the lot. Having watched Stoke week-in, week-out this season, I believe the reason this is lower is potentially a result of playing riskier passes than the others (i.e. opting to play long when the shorter, easier pass may be on). I wanted to test this, so I then looked at passes backwards, forwards and square as a proportion of all passes made in total. Interestingly, the findings confirmed this hypothesis. Shawcross plays a greater % of forward passes relative to almost all the other players, with the exception of Caulker, with whom his pass completion % is similar (75% vs. 76%). Even a moron would struggle to argue with the point that a pass backwards or square would be completed with more regularity than a pass forwards. And so whilst it it's nigh on impossible to understand what the underlying figures would be if passing difficulty was accounted for, I'd imagine that those %'s listed would be pretty much on par or a lot closer than they otherwise are. So we now know that Shawcross can tackle as well, win headers as well and, arguably, pass as well. Is there any parameter he's largely inferior on? Not as far as I can tell. Oh well, I honestly believe we have the best English centre half at our club right now, let's treasure the little (big) beauty. [. You sure are one sad bastard  |
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Post by Olgrligm on Nov 20, 2014 22:05:29 GMT
Thanks for putting this together, it must have taken a lot of effort. ---WARNING Statophobia imminent WARNING ---I'm not sure what to take from the first group of statistics. I've got to be honest and say that those kind of defensive stats are a pet hate of mine, because context free figures on things like 'tackles won' or 'successful clearances' (a particular hate of mine!) aren't really much use for anything. The only real thing that I can see in the first set of data is not that Ryan is twice as good defensively as he was three years ago, but that he just didn't have as much to do. For the two Tony Pulis seasons, he was part of a settled, solid back four with four midfielders playing about two yards in front of him. The first 11 games last season were absolute chaos at the back and for the most part, Ryan was the only player bothering to defend. This year, he's had to hold the defence together on his own for different reasons, as his team-mates are dropping like flies through injury. I suppose what you could possibly say from that is that it just emphasises how important Ryan is to our team. 'Aerial duels won' in the next set of data is fair enough, apart from the fact that it doesn't really tell you about the role the defender plays in the defence. A few years back, Huth would be responsible for winning most of the aerial duels from balls out from the back, while Ryan would usually be the one who swept up the pieces behind him. Nowadays, it's Ryan who wins the headers. John Terry usually looks good on aerial duels stats, but whenever I've seen him, he's just cowered at the back and let his defensive partner deal with all the nasty physical stuff. I don't think I'll ever forget seeing him ragdolled around The Brit by Mama Sidibe, of all people. Similarly, the stuff about passing accuracy, percentage of passes played forwards and so on is all a bit lacking in context. Under TP, Ryan was the designated long ball player (he's bloody good at it, he can pick out a team-mates head from a good 50 yards) and takes a similar role in the current side whenever we do go direct. Whether the pass is successful not is then in the lap of the Gods, as it mostly depends on whether the target man has the beating of his marker in the air, so in terms of completion it's always going to be a bit of a lottery. On the other hand, the stats show that Ryan is much, much better than his England counterparts so I'm going to stop nitpicking. |
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Post by adi on Nov 20, 2014 22:57:15 GMT
He'll always be hung out to dry on passing as it's his weakness. So as a result it's being used as a stick to beat him.
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Post by bignickhowes on Nov 20, 2014 23:33:10 GMT
out of the big teams this season Shawcross and stoke have played man city
Jagielka and everton have played arenal, chelsea, liverpool, man united
Cahill and chelsea have played liverpool, man united, arsenal, man city
that speaks for itself
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Post by adi on Nov 21, 2014 0:08:04 GMT
out of the big teams this season Shawcross and stoke have played man city Jagielka and everton have played arenal, chelsea, liverpool, man united Cahill and chelsea have played liverpool, man united, arsenal, man city that speaks for itself But we also played spurs, west ham (flying) and soton. And Ryan had partnered Wilson. |
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Post by dirtygary69 on Nov 21, 2014 0:39:40 GMT
Jesus Christ, I know you're off work Graham but fucking hell!
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Post by stokemanusa on Nov 21, 2014 0:48:44 GMT
Great post. Stats tell alot, but not all of it. But, stats don't lie, remarkable improvement shown here for Shawcross. I see more people are using Opta on here. Funny. I was chastised for using it to show several players remarkable improvement not to long ago.
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Post by tuum on Nov 21, 2014 1:21:31 GMT
out of the big teams this season Shawcross and stoke have played man city Jagielka and everton have played arenal, chelsea, liverpool, man united Cahill and chelsea have played liverpool, man united, arsenal, man city that speaks for itself The facts above mean nothing. The only stat that will change when we do play the bigger teams is the Goals Against column. If anything, Ryan's stats will improve as he will have more to do in theory. There is no big team player who is going to dominate him in the air. He will probably have to make more tackles, and the number of long balls finding their man will remain more or less the same. Bottom line is that Ryan is good enough to be in the England squad and should at least be ahead of Smalling, Chambers, Jones in the CH pecking order. (personally I think he is on a par, if not better, than Cahill and Jagielk, but I am biased). Unfortunately, Roy doesn't see it that way. I have no problem with that if it wasn't for such a piss poor showing in the World Cup. Also Roy has dropped lucky to be landed in such an easy Euro group. I think Ryan will be too old by the time he becomes eligible for selection again after Roy leaves in 2016 following another shit performance in a major tournament. |
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Post by daibando on Nov 21, 2014 13:20:58 GMT
Stats are a load of balls, so to speak. The only thing that mattered is how Shawcross performed when he was given his chance against Sweden. He obviously didn't impress the manager and that's why he hasn't been given another chance. That doesn't seem fair based on one performance but Hodgson obviously feels he isn't going to bring anything to the international set-up.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 21, 2014 13:31:21 GMT
out of the big teams this season Shawcross and stoke have played man city Jagielka and everton have played arenal, chelsea, liverpool, man united Cahill and chelsea have played liverpool, man united, arsenal, man city that speaks for itself Correct. Shawcross & Stoke kept a cleansheet as they won 1-0 away at the defending champions. Jagielka & Everton conceeded goals in every game, including SIX at HOME to Chelsea. Cahill & Chelsea managed a cleansheet at home to Arsenal but conceeded a goal in the others, including away at the defending champions. That also speaks for itself. |
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Post by bignickhowes on Nov 23, 2014 19:39:14 GMT
out of the big teams this season Shawcross and stoke have played man city Jagielka and everton have played arenal, chelsea, liverpool, man united Cahill and chelsea have played liverpool, man united, arsenal, man city that speaks for itself But we also played spurs, west ham (flying) and soton. And Ryan had partnered Wilson. jagielka and everton concede one to West Ham(flying) cahill and chelsea clean sheet shawcross and stoke concede 2 to burnley Im not been a bell, just saying its too early to say he's better than him until you play many more games |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 19:42:32 GMT
But we also played spurs, west ham (flying) and soton. And Ryan had partnered Wilson. jagielka and everton concede one to West Ham(flying) cahill and chelsea clean sheet shawcross and stoke concede 2 to burnley Im not been a bell, just saying its too early to say he's better than him until you play many more games Everton have conceded 2 to Leicester this season and 3 to Crystal Palace. What's your point? |
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Post by bignickhowes on Nov 23, 2014 22:04:45 GMT
jagielka and everton concede one to West Ham(flying) cahill and chelsea clean sheet shawcross and stoke concede 2 to burnley Im not been a bell, just saying its too early to say he's better than him until you play many more games Everton have conceded 2 to Leicester this season and 3 to Crystal Palace. What's your point? read above |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 22:12:08 GMT
Everton have conceded 2 to Leicester this season and 3 to Crystal Palace. What's your point? read above Same question. |
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Post by bignickhowes on Nov 23, 2014 23:14:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 7:24:39 GMT
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Post by Danstoke82 on Nov 24, 2014 8:30:34 GMT
These stats are all well and good but its a certain clueless dribbling old fool that needs to see these!.  Presently, he doesn't know where Stoke On Trent is. |
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Post by mrpickles on Nov 24, 2014 11:05:51 GMT
But we also played spurs, west ham (flying) and soton. And Ryan had partnered Wilson. jagielka and everton concede one to West Ham(flying) cahill and chelsea clean sheet shawcross and stoke concede 2 to burnley Im not been a bell, just saying its too early to say he's better than him until you play many more games But you are coming across as a 'bell' Nick, as I'm sure I would do if I went onto an Aston Villa forum and started dismissing the ability of some of your players. The reason for that would be that I'm not armed with anywhere near enough knowledge of your squad to think my opinion is superior to those fans who have watched Villa week in week out. Its the same with you here. An opinion is all well and good, but I think you go beyond just having one. You let trying to prove that you're right get in the way. For some reason you're always on an England or Arsenal match thread and generally pick out the negative comments to reply to. Why? Anyway, the bottom line is nick, we Stoke fans have seen Ryan Shawcross play nearly 300 competitive football matches. He's a fucking legend at this football club, so I'm sure you can understand why we think your opinion means absolutely fuck all given your complete lack of knowledge on the subject? Now, if we're talking Fabian Delph or Ron Vlaar then I'm all ears mate  |
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Post by bignickhowes on Nov 24, 2014 22:51:25 GMT
jagielka and everton concede one to West Ham(flying) cahill and chelsea clean sheet shawcross and stoke concede 2 to burnley Im not been a bell, just saying its too early to say he's better than him until you play many more games But you are coming across as a 'bell' Nick, as I'm sure I would do if I went onto an Aston Villa forum and started dismissing the ability of some of your players. The reason for that would be that I'm not armed with anywhere near enough knowledge of your squad to think my opinion is superior to those fans who have watched Villa week in week out. Its the same with you here. An opinion is all well and good, but I think you go beyond just having one. You let trying to prove that you're right get in the way. For some reason you're always on an England or Arsenal match thread and generally pick out the negative comments to reply to. Why? Anyway, the bottom line is nick, we Stoke fans have seen Ryan Shawcross play nearly 300 competitive football matches. He's a fucking legend at this football club, so I'm sure you can understand why we think your opinion means absolutely fuck all given your complete lack of knowledge on the subject? Now, if we're talking Fabian Delph or Ron Vlaar then I'm all ears mate I see quite a lot of stokes football, thats what my opinion is based on |
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