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Post by chayzenbacon on Oct 24, 2014 12:13:38 GMT
At what point in this particular saga has Hughes been hypocritical? I'm not saying he hasn't but if he has I've missed it, whereas it is quite clear that Monk and Pulis have. He's gone bananas on previous occasions and defended Moses this week. All managers will slate divers and then defend their own players, often manufacturing contact where there is none. All top level football managers are top level hypocrites, its part of the job description. Rather a woolly answer that Sheikh - "gone bananas on previous occasions" - I'm hard-pressed to think of any, especially any that were unjustified and he hasn't done anythnig of the sort during this current saga, which was the specific basis of my question to you. "Defended Moses this week" - of course he has, the bloke was fouled in the penalty ergo that's a penalty not cheating. I don't see any hypocrisy there. You normally fight your corner better than that.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 24, 2014 12:16:41 GMT
He's gone bananas on previous occasions and defended Moses this week. All managers will slate divers and then defend their own players, often manufacturing contact where there is none. All top level football managers are top level hypocrites, its part of the job description. Rather a woolly answer that Sheikh - "gone bananas on previous occasions" - I'm hard-pressed to think of any, especially any that were unjustified and he hasn't done anythnig of the sort during this current saga, which was the specific basis of my question to you. "Defended Moses this week" - of course he has, the bloke was fouled in the penalty ergo that's a penalty not cheating. I don't see any hypocrisy there. You normally fight your corner better than that. I'm sorry I don't buy this it was a penalty nonsense myself. Both were penalties to the absolute letter of the law but neither were in the real world.
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Post by chayzenbacon on Oct 24, 2014 12:20:17 GMT
Rather a woolly answer that Sheikh - "gone bananas on previous occasions" - I'm hard-pressed to think of any, especially any that were unjustified and he hasn't done anythnig of the sort during this current saga, which was the specific basis of my question to you. "Defended Moses this week" - of course he has, the bloke was fouled in the penalty ergo that's a penalty not cheating. I don't see any hypocrisy there. You normally fight your corner better than that. I'm sorry I don't buy this it was a penalty nonsense myself. Both were penalties to the absolute letter of the law but neither were in the real world. That's a different argument and one where I might agree with you. However as plenty of people have said this week, their "dive" came first, as did the clear foul in the area on Crouch, so it is possible to view Moses' actions as having been forced upon him by a shite referee. If you wanted to defend your football club against the shit coming at it from all sides, that is.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 24, 2014 12:25:43 GMT
I'm sorry I don't buy this it was a penalty nonsense myself. Both were penalties to the absolute letter of the law but neither were in the real world. That's a different argument and one where I might agree with you. However as plenty of people have said this week, their "dive" came first, as did the clear foul in the area on Crouch, so it is possible to view Moses' actions as having been forced upon him by a shite referee. If you wanted to defend your football club against the shit coming at it from all sides, that is. I've defended the club strongly in the aftermath and think we are most certainly victimized by media and officials alike, I also think all managers are blazing hypocrites when it comes to diving, including Monk and Hughes and why the game will never be rid of it.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 24, 2014 12:31:12 GMT
That's a different argument and one where I might agree with you. However as plenty of people have said this week, their "dive" came first, as did the clear foul in the area on Crouch, so it is possible to view Moses' actions as having been forced upon him by a shite referee. If you wanted to defend your football club against the shit coming at it from all sides, that is. I've defended the club strongly in the aftermath and think we are most certainly victimized by media and officials alike, I also think all managers are blazing hypocrites when it comes to diving, including Monk and Hughes and why the game will never be rid of it. Thank God we also have Tony Scholes, the ultimate manifestation of non-hypocrisy, eh Sheikhy?
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Post by iglugluk on Oct 24, 2014 12:33:04 GMT
At what point in this particular saga has Hughes been hypocritical? I'm not saying he hasn't but if he has I've missed it, whereas it is quite clear that Monk and Pulis have. He's gone bananas on previous occasions and defended Moses this week. All managers will slate divers and then defend their own players, often manufacturing contact where there is none. All top level football managers are top level hypocrites, its part of the job description. In team sports the manager quite rightly backs their respective teams to keep up team morale and belief so hypocrisy is maybe too strong a word to be applied in many of these situations. It is best if they draw the line at outright lies though, I would say, Monks overstepped this line by calling Moses a cheat given the clear shirt pull in the area. His reaction may be understandable but it was still wrong and the FA should take action to support this fact. Suarez dive against us last season was a clear example of a player diving and the Moses incident is quite clearly not....... simple as that really. Due to the intense media around this incident TP is switched on enough to know what how his comments would be seen by our club and its' supporters, so I think he would have been best keeping his thoughts to himself this week if he did not want to undermine our club. I can only guess that his position as beloved media pundit right now is informing his decisions. Still it doesn't really matter one way or the other in the scheme of things.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 24, 2014 12:40:17 GMT
Both players have gone to ground and didn't need too, that is what has won them the penalties, if people want football like that then keep defending the players concerned.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 24, 2014 12:40:49 GMT
He's gone bananas on previous occasions and defended Moses this week. All managers will slate divers and then defend their own players, often manufacturing contact where there is none. All top level football managers are top level hypocrites, its part of the job description. In team sports the manager quite rightly backs their respective teams to keep up team morale and belief so hypocrisy is maybe too strong a word to be applied in many of these situations. It is best if they draw the line at outright lies though, I would say, Monks overstepped this line by calling Moses a cheat given the clear shirt pull in the area. His reaction may be understandable but it was still wrong and the FA should take action to support this fact. Suarez dive against us last season was a clear example of a player diving and the Moses incident is quite clearly not....... simple as that really. Due to the intense media around this incident TP is switched on enough to know what how his comments would be seen by our club and its' supporters, so I think he would have been best keeping his thoughts to himself this week if he did not want to undermine our club. I can only guess that his position as beloved media pundit right now is informing his decisions. Still it doesn't really matter one way or the other in the scheme of things. I would never defend Monk, who I think is an idiot for saying what he said. But, at the time he gave his first interview, I doubt if he knew about the shirt pull because, as far as I know there was no Sky video of the shirt pull. I don't think Hughes had seen the shirt pull at the time of his interview. All the evidence of the shirt pull comes from still photographs taken from behind the goal and I very much doubt if Monk would have seen those photographs when he first made his cheating remarks. I also expect that Rangel will not, at that point, have admitted to Monk that he pulled Sterling's shirt - indeed, I expect he would have quickly and conveniently "forgotten" that he had done so.
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Post by chayzenbacon on Oct 24, 2014 12:50:37 GMT
Both players have gone to ground and didn't need too, that is what has won them the penalties, if people want football like that then keep defending the players concerned. You need a reality check. Whether we want it or not this is football today and its not about to change any time soon because the authorities clearly don't have the will to change it. If you don't like it then don't watch it and for fuck's sake don't bother with your wind-ups on here.
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Post by iglugluk on Oct 24, 2014 12:58:06 GMT
In team sports the manager quite rightly backs their respective teams to keep up team morale and belief so hypocrisy is maybe too strong a word to be applied in many of these situations. It is best if they draw the line at outright lies though, I would say, Monks overstepped this line by calling Moses a cheat given the clear shirt pull in the area. His reaction may be understandable but it was still wrong and the FA should take action to support this fact. Suarez dive against us last season was a clear example of a player diving and the Moses incident is quite clearly not....... simple as that really. Due to the intense media around this incident TP is switched on enough to know what how his comments would be seen by our club and its' supporters, so I think he would have been best keeping his thoughts to himself this week if he did not want to undermine our club. I can only guess that his position as beloved media pundit right now is informing his decisions. Still it doesn't really matter one way or the other in the scheme of things. I would never defend Monk, who I think is an idiot for saying what he said. But, at the time he gave his first interview, I doubt if he knew about the shirt pull because, as far as I know there was no Sky video of the shirt pull. I don't think Hughes had seen the shirt pull at the time of his interview. All the evidence of the shirt pull comes from still photographs taken from behind the goal and I very much doubt if Monk would have seen those photographs when he first made his cheating remarks. I also expect that Rangel will not, at that point, have admitted to Monk that he pulled Sterling's shirt - indeed, I expect he would have quickly and conveniently "forgotten" that he had done so. That's fair enough and it shows the value of knowing when to 'keep one's powder dry' so to speak. Monks needs to learn and the FA should ensure that he is publically remonstrated for his ill considered words..........................the media are just attention seeking scandal mongers nowadays so nobody at all should take them seriously
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Post by iglugluk on Oct 24, 2014 13:01:55 GMT
Both players have gone to ground and didn't need too, that is what has won them the penalties, if people want football like that then keep defending the players concerned. You have a point here, to be sure, but the trouble is that the vast majority of the media are focussing just on Moses and that is why this site has been in outcry mode since. The fact they were both given still led to a fair result though i.e. a one goal ( the only real goal in your estimation in fact ) win for Stoke....................justice was served by whatever means.
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Post by Davef on Oct 24, 2014 13:34:55 GMT
Both players have gone to ground and didn't need too. That's not an opinion shared by one of the country's leading referees.
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Post by mcf on Oct 24, 2014 13:50:30 GMT
This has little to do with players.
Players do what they do because the referees and law makers have taken them on that journey.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 24, 2014 14:17:02 GMT
I haven't seen those comments from a referee Dave, so I'm not aware of what he has said.
Regarding Shawcross, it didn't appear to me that he wrestled the player to the ground, in fact both players had their hands out, the Swansea player decided to fall.
In the case of Moses you have posted a picture on here that clearly shows a grab on his shirt, for some reason you have not shown the video replay on here. If you tug a shirt but release the hand in a split second you cannot possibly slow the the players run, alter his stance, let alone cause him to fall.
Some people say Stoke won so why does it matter, it matters because we want to eliminate diving from the game.
You are a Stoke fan, you have a picture which appears to prove Moses was fouled, but I think the video replay shows that he was not impeded in his run in anyway and therefore the penalty award was flawed, and above all unfair.
I also think had the ref not awarded the first penalty he would not have awarded the second and no Stoke fan would have disputed that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 14:32:41 GMT
You are a Stoke fan, you have a picture which appears to prove Moses was fouled, but I think the video replay shows that he was not impeded in his run in anyway and therefore the penalty award was flawed, and above all unfair. I can't produce the replays, but I remember what they showed. The first replay (with Moses running towards the camera) showed nothing. I thought bloody hell Moses has dived. The second replay, (with Moses running left to right across the screen), showed definite contact, and a push. Certain penalty. Someone on here has said that the linesman was flagging for a foul also ....
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Post by spitthedog on Oct 24, 2014 14:39:30 GMT
Pulis shows his true colours again.
Regardless of the issue, Puls is an opportunist.
He has a vested interest in our club being smeared, that is, to further enhance the image of his tenure has being THE golden period both in terms of success on the pitch and as a model of virtue and ethics off it.
Our highest finish last year would have been excruciating for him.
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Post by onionman on Oct 24, 2014 14:40:47 GMT
I haven't seen those comments from a referee Dave, so I'm not aware of what he has said. Regarding Shawcross, it didn't appear to me that he wrestled the player to the ground, in fact both players had their hands out, the Swansea player decided to fall. In the case of Moses you have posted a picture on here that clearly shows a grab on his shirt, for some reason you have not shown the video replay on here. If you tug a shirt but release the hand in a split second you cannot possibly slow the the players run, alter his stance, let alone cause him to fall. Some people say Stoke won so why does it matter, it matters because we want to eliminate diving from the game. You are a Stoke fan, you have a picture which appears to prove Moses was fouled, but I think the video replay shows that he was not impeded in his run in anyway and therefore the penalty award was flawed, and above all unfair. I also think had the ref not awarded the first penalty he would not have awarded the second and no Stoke fan would have disputed that. I've read your post several times Geoff, in an effort to find something to disagree with. However try as I might I find myself agreeing with you. I want the football I watch to be played in the same spirit as the football I played when I was a kid on the playground. The rule back then was that, if you can stay on your feet, you must stay on your feet. Otherwise you are a diving tosser. That applied when Raheem Sterling had his back brushed by Marc Wilson, it applied when Chico Flores had his hair ruffled by Andy Carroll, it applied when Wilfried Bony had his arm held by Ryan Shawcross, and it applied when Victor Moses had his shirt pulled by Taylor. If Sterling and Flores are cheats, so is Bony and so is Moses. I realise that loads the dice in favour of sneaky defenders but, you know what, I'd prefer that to the dice being loaded in favour of sneaky attackers.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 24, 2014 14:49:08 GMT
Good man onion, but agreeing with me on here is not something I recommend you do if you want to be taken seriously!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 14:50:34 GMT
defenders should know, in the box, that if they dont make a clinical tackle without touching the player, ALL players are going to go down!!!!! - shawcross wilson and huth be aware!!!
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Post by onionman on Oct 24, 2014 14:50:53 GMT
Good man onion, but agreeing with me on here is not something I recommend you do if you want to be taken seriously! I realise that, Geoff, and I will make every effort to ensure it doesn't happen again.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 15:05:53 GMT
Pulis shows his true colours again. Regardless of the issue, Puls is an opportunist. He has a vested interest in our club being smeared, that is, to further enhance the image of his tenure has being THE golden period both in terms of success on the pitch and as a model of virtue and ethics off it. Our highest finish last year would have been excruciating for him. possibly the biggest load of made up, unsubstantiated, agenda ridden arsewater i've ever seen on here!!!!!
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 24, 2014 15:57:34 GMT
Pulis shows his true colours again. Regardless of the issue, Puls is an opportunist. He has a vested interest in our club being smeared, that is, to further enhance the image of his tenure has being THE golden period both in terms of success on the pitch and as a model of virtue and ethics off it. Our highest finish last year would have been excruciating for him. possibly the biggest load of made up, unsubstantiated, agenda ridden arsewater i've ever seen on here!!!!! But with added hint of truth...
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Post by oslostokie1 on Oct 24, 2014 21:57:34 GMT
Pulis shows his true colours again. Regardless of the issue, Puls is an opportunist. He has a vested interest in our club being smeared, that is, to further enhance the image of his tenure has being THE golden period both in terms of success on the pitch and as a model of virtue and ethics off it. Our highest finish last year would have been excruciating for him. Totally agree. Finishing in a record 9th place playing free- flowing football with a fraction of the transfer outlay would have pissed him off no end.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Oct 24, 2014 22:49:24 GMT
I haven't seen those comments from a referee Dave, so I'm not aware of what he has said. Regarding Shawcross, it didn't appear to me that he wrestled the player to the ground, in fact both players had their hands out, the Swansea player decided to fall. In the case of Moses you have posted a picture on here that clearly shows a grab on his shirt, for some reason you have not shown the video replay on here. If you tug a shirt but release the hand in a split second you cannot possibly slow the the players run, alter his stance, let alone cause him to fall. Some people say Stoke won so why does it matter, it matters because we want to eliminate diving from the game. You are a Stoke fan, you have a picture which appears to prove Moses was fouled, but I think the video replay shows that he was not impeded in his run in anyway and therefore the penalty award was flawed, and above all unfair. I also think had the ref not awarded the first penalty he would not have awarded the second and no Stoke fan would have disputed that. I didn't realise that you could foul for a split second now.
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Post by generationex on Oct 24, 2014 23:34:55 GMT
Jesus on a bike. I avoided this thread for as long as possible, knowing it would be a dog whistle to the Pulis haters, but they've surpassed themselves on this one.
Search "Pulis Diving Not On" on google.
I can't be bothered to link the half-dozen+ results that demonstrate he's been opposed to diving for years, whilst our manager and in relation to his OWN players at the time they played for his team.
But this is now an attempt to blacken Stoke City?... The haters should realise that this sort of crap destroys the credibility of any opinion they have about anything else.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Oct 24, 2014 23:54:01 GMT
The NBA started fining players for flopping recently and it did reduce occurrences. The league's are very different, and the impact is greater in football, but no professional wants to be labeled a cheater, and no person likes losing money. The game should be determined by the play, players, and coaches to an extent. I don't like seeing an outcome determined by a ref. That said, many players will continue to use the tactic ( looking at you Robben)to win a game. Maybe officially labelling them what they are, cheaters, could be a deterrent. Thats not enough, they need lengthy bans, more than 3 games, more like 2 months.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 25, 2014 0:40:32 GMT
I haven't seen those comments from a referee Dave, so I'm not aware of what he has said. Regarding Shawcross, it didn't appear to me that he wrestled the player to the ground, in fact both players had their hands out, the Swansea player decided to fall. In the case of Moses you have posted a picture on here that clearly shows a grab on his shirt, for some reason you have not shown the video replay on here. If you tug a shirt but release the hand in a split second you cannot possibly slow the the players run, alter his stance, let alone cause him to fall. Some people say Stoke won so why does it matter, it matters because we want to eliminate diving from the game. You are a Stoke fan, you have a picture which appears to prove Moses was fouled, but I think the video replay shows that he was not impeded in his run in anyway and therefore the penalty award was flawed, and above all unfair. I also think had the ref not awarded the first penalty he would not have awarded the second and no Stoke fan would have disputed that. I've read your post several times Geoff, in an effort to find something to disagree with. However try as I might I find myself agreeing with you. I want the football I watch to be played in the same spirit as the football I played when I was a kid on the playground. The rule back then was that, if you can stay on your feet, you must stay on your feet. Otherwise you are a diving tosser. That applied when Raheem Sterling had his back brushed by Marc Wilson, it applied when Chico Flores had his hair ruffled by Andy Carroll, it applied when Wilfried Bony had his arm held by Ryan Shawcross, and it applied when Victor Moses had his shirt pulled by Taylor. If Sterling and Flores are cheats, so is Bony and so is Moses. I realise that loads the dice in favour of sneaky defenders but, you know what, I'd prefer that to the dice being loaded in favour of sneaky attackers. So Crouch stays on his feet (when he could have gone down) and we don't get a penalty but Bony goes down (when he could have stayed on his feet) and Swansea DO get a penalty. AND YOU THEN EXPECT (INDEED WANT) MOSES TO STAY ON HIS FEET TOO? I'm sure we will all feel smug in our self worth when we're getting relegated on a point less than Swansea at the end of the season won't we?
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Post by onionman on Oct 25, 2014 1:56:04 GMT
I've read your post several times Geoff, in an effort to find something to disagree with. However try as I might I find myself agreeing with you. I want the football I watch to be played in the same spirit as the football I played when I was a kid on the playground. The rule back then was that, if you can stay on your feet, you must stay on your feet. Otherwise you are a diving tosser. That applied when Raheem Sterling had his back brushed by Marc Wilson, it applied when Chico Flores had his hair ruffled by Andy Carroll, it applied when Wilfried Bony had his arm held by Ryan Shawcross, and it applied when Victor Moses had his shirt pulled by Taylor. If Sterling and Flores are cheats, so is Bony and so is Moses. I realise that loads the dice in favour of sneaky defenders but, you know what, I'd prefer that to the dice being loaded in favour of sneaky attackers. So Crouch stays on his feet (when he could have gone down) and we don't get a penalty but Bony goes down (when he could have stayed on his feet) and Swansea DO get a penalty. AND YOU THEN EXPECT (INDEED WANT) MOSES TO STAY ON HIS FEET TOO? I'm sure we will all feel smug in our self worth when we're getting relegated on a point less than Swansea at the end of the season won't we? Yes, I did want him to stay on his feet. One of the best things about being a Stoke fan the past few years is that our club has generally bucked the trend of diving and playacting which makes modern football so replusive to many of us, and by and large our players have played the same way we would love to play if it was us out on that pitch: with honesty and commitment. I would hate that to be taken away. If we lose heart-breakingly to Man Utd because Ashley Young crumples to a heap under the slightest of touches from one of our defenders, what will our reaction be? Will we say, fair enough, he was drawing the ref's attention to a foul? That certainly wasn't what we said when Raheem Sterling won that penalty against Marc Wilson. I don't actually think our more honest approach has done us any harm either. For every extra penalty we might have missed out on because we didn't dive, there's been a win gained against the odds because of our siege mentality rallying against the injustices of the cheating Suarez and Wright-Phillips characters of this world. No team has ever been relegated because it didn't dive enough.
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