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Post by bathstoke on Oct 16, 2014 20:45:00 GMT
Did David Cameron hate his disabled son? One stupid idiot doesn't make a party. He may not have hated Adam, but I doubt he had a great hand in his day to day care on his way up the slippery pole...
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 16, 2014 21:34:18 GMT
Oh... the scraping of fingernails as people on here desperately defend the indefensible. Sack the man he's an utter disgrace regardless of which party he represents, although it's typical language of the party he supports.
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Post by desman2 on Oct 16, 2014 21:44:58 GMT
There are three groups that all political parties abuse. The Disabled, The elderly and young people. Conveniently these three groups are the least likely to have some form of electoral impact.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 16, 2014 21:56:44 GMT
Oh... the scraping of fingernails as people on here desperately defend the indefensible. Sack the man he's an utter disgrace regardless of which party he represents, although it's typical language of the party he supports. Coming from a guy who carped for months about how his "beyond my wildest dreams" comment about the riots was being taken out of context, you stance is a tad ironic and hypocritical. Regards Attila The Hun
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 16, 2014 22:33:25 GMT
Oh... the scraping of fingernails as people on here desperately defend the indefensible. Sack the man he's an utter disgrace regardless of which party he represents, although it's typical language of the party he supports. Coming from a guy who carped for months about how his "beyond my wildest dreams" comment about the riots was being taken out of context, you stance is a tad ironic and hypocritical. Regards Attila The Hun Not really mate...as you know I stand by those comments. Are you defending Lord Freud then? Or not?
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Post by salopstick on Oct 16, 2014 22:43:56 GMT
Coming from a guy who carped for months about how his "beyond my wildest dreams" comment about the riots was being taken out of context, you stance is a tad ironic and hypocritical. Regards Attila The Hun Not really mate...as you know I stand by those comments. Are you defending Lord Freud then? Or not? mindless riots that caused death, violence, looting, to innocent people. Are beyond your wildest dreams. Brilliant
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 16, 2014 22:56:09 GMT
Coming from a guy who carped for months about how his "beyond my wildest dreams" comment about the riots was being taken out of context, you stance is a tad ironic and hypocritical. Regards Attila The Hun Not really mate...as you know I stand by those comments. Are you defending Lord Freud then? Or not? I don't really have an opinion on it but from what I can see he has done far more than me or you with regards to helping disabled people even being employed by the Labour party to advise them and from watching question time it seems the question was from a parent worried their disabled child might not be able to find work not quite the tories trying to find cheap labour as it has been portrayed, in fact the labour mp got a bit of booting for trying to score cheap political points out of it. Incidentially its interesting Labour are far more offended by this than what happened in Rotherham not so keen on sackings there are they. As for standing by your comments on the riots, classy real classy.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 16, 2014 23:16:26 GMT
Not really mate...as you know I stand by those comments. Are you defending Lord Freud then? Or not? I don't really have an opinion on it but from what I can see he has done far more than me or you with regards to helping disabled people even being employed by the Labour party to advise them and from watching question time it seems the question was from a parent worried their disabled child might not be able to find work not quite the tories trying to find cheap labour as it has been portrayed, in fact the labour mp got a bit of booting for trying to score cheap political points out of it. Incidentially its interesting Labour are far more offended by this than what happened in Rotherham not so keen on sackings there are they. As for standing by your comments on the riots, classy real classy. Not classy just an understanding of what went on, expect more if the Tories are re elected. Boris has ordered water canons you know.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 16, 2014 23:17:17 GMT
Not really mate...as you know I stand by those comments. Are you defending Lord Freud then? Or not? mindless riots that caused death, violence, looting, to innocent people. Are beyond your wildest dreams. Brilliant Well Al, if it helps you out of that huge hole you're constantly digging yourself into these days, fill your boots buddy.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 17, 2014 5:30:02 GMT
I don't really have an opinion on it but from what I can see he has done far more than me or you with regards to helping disabled people even being employed by the Labour party to advise them and from watching question time it seems the question was from a parent worried their disabled child might not be able to find work not quite the tories trying to find cheap labour as it has been portrayed, in fact the labour mp got a bit of booting for trying to score cheap political points out of it. Incidentially its interesting Labour are far more offended by this than what happened in Rotherham not so keen on sackings there are they. As for standing by your comments on the riots, classy real classy. Not classy just an understanding of what went on, expect more if the Tories are re elected. Boris has ordered water canons you know. 5 people died, hundreds of millions of pounds worth of damage mainly for kids to thieve trainers, wide screen TV's but you think it was some sort of political protest ha ha. Doing a good job of making yourself look silly. “A wide ranging LSE study called Reading the Riots concluded that the major contributory factors were opportunism, perceived social injustice, deprivation, and frustration at the way communities were policed.”
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Post by jpm64 on Oct 17, 2014 7:55:26 GMT
Did David Cameron hate his disabled son? One stupid idiot doesn't make a party. Lord Freud is a part of Cameron's government, Cameron states he does not represent the views of the government yet he does not sack him As for Salop stating I am "Poking Fun " Let me tell you as someone who as worked in Mental Health services for the past 32 years "Poking Fun" does not even begin to describe how appalling I find this man's comments.... How dare he decide what people are "worth " ? The answer is to raise awareness and reduce stigma not to tell people they are only worth £2 an hour. The fact that the previous Labour government did not tackle this issue either does not excuse the nasty comments of a nasty man representing a nasty party !!
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Post by Northy on Oct 17, 2014 9:10:18 GMT
Did David Cameron hate his disabled son? One stupid idiot doesn't make a party. Lord Freud is a part of Cameron's government, Cameron states he does not represent the views of the government yet he does not sack him As for Salop stating I am "Poking Fun " Let me tell you as someone who as worked in Mental Health services for the past 32 years "Poking Fun" does not even begin to describe how appalling I find this man's comments.... How dare he decide what people are "worth " ? The answer is to raise awareness and reduce stigma not to tell people they are only worth £2 an hour. The fact that the previous Labour government did not tackle this issue either does not excuse the nasty comments of a nasty man representing a nasty party !! It's the way you implied that one man's comments sums up the whole party that I responded to. I don't agree with what he said, but we have only seen a short play of what the whole conversation was about, surely the Party, whovere the party is should be given time to investigate, incident management etc. before sackings or not take place, (we all saw what happened during 'plebgate' everybody calling for an innocent stitched up man to be sacked.
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Post by ukcstokie on Oct 17, 2014 11:20:26 GMT
Did David Cameron hate his disabled son? One stupid idiot doesn't make a party. Lord Freud is a part of Cameron's government, Cameron states he does not represent the views of the government yet he does not sack him As for Salop stating I am "Poking Fun " Let me tell you as someone who as worked in Mental Health services for the past 32 years "Poking Fun" does not even begin to describe how appalling I find this man's comments.... How dare he decide what people are "worth " ? The answer is to raise awareness and reduce stigma not to tell people they are only worth £2 an hour. The fact that the previous Labour government did not tackle this issue either does not excuse the nasty comments of a nasty man representing a nasty party !!
I don't agree with what he said...but apparently many/most of the charities in this area agree with the approach. Are they puppets to the Tories?
As somebody asked earlier - please share you policy for solving this?
Raising awareness doesn't solve this problem - it's the reluctance of many employers - who are in a competitive market - to employ people who they may not see as commercially viable (either down to productivity levels, investment needed to support the individual, etc.).
Remploy seemed like a good solution - but unfortunately both Labour and the Tories/Libdem alliance didn't see it that way.
But tell us your solution.
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Post by jpm64 on Oct 17, 2014 11:38:27 GMT
Lord Freud is a part of Cameron's government, Cameron states he does not represent the views of the government yet he does not sack him As for Salop stating I am "Poking Fun " Let me tell you as someone who as worked in Mental Health services for the past 32 years "Poking Fun" does not even begin to describe how appalling I find this man's comments.... How dare he decide what people are "worth " ? The answer is to raise awareness and reduce stigma not to tell people they are only worth £2 an hour. The fact that the previous Labour government did not tackle this issue either does not excuse the nasty comments of a nasty man representing a nasty party !!
I don't agree with what he said...but apparently many/most of the charities in this area agree with the approach. Are they puppets to the Tories?
As somebody asked earlier - please share you policy for solving this?
Raising awareness doesn't solve this problem - it's the reluctance of many employers - who are in a competitive market - to employ people who they may not see as commercially viable (either down to productivity levels, investment needed to support the individual, etc.).
Remploy seemed like a good solution - but unfortunately both Labour and the Tories/Libdem alliance didn't see it that way.
But tell us your solution. Most charities agree with the approach ???? Here is MIND's response for you www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/mind-responds-to-reported-comments-of-lord-freud-on-minimum-wage-for-disabled-people/#.VED-2PldXBE
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Post by ukcstokie on Oct 17, 2014 14:19:13 GMT
I don't agree with what he said...but apparently many/most of the charities in this area agree with the approach. Are they puppets to the Tories?
As somebody asked earlier - please share you policy for solving this?
Raising awareness doesn't solve this problem - it's the reluctance of many employers - who are in a competitive market - to employ people who they may not see as commercially viable (either down to productivity levels, investment needed to support the individual, etc.).
Remploy seemed like a good solution - but unfortunately both Labour and the Tories/Libdem alliance didn't see it that way.
But tell us your solution. Most charities agree with the approach ???? Here is MIND's response for you www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/mind-responds-to-reported-comments-of-lord-freud-on-minimum-wage-for-disabled-people/#.VED-2PldXBE
That's Mind's response. Are Mind most charities then?
It's also Mind's response to his misjudged comments. Any decent person would be offended by the use of "worth" in this context.
Isn't the real point that we should be talking about a policy that tries to help get more of the disabled into work, rather than a poorly worded response - or are you just wanting to score points (like Miliband) rather than help the solve the problem and actually help the people concerned?
Come on, tell us the answer then? Enlighten us.
To me the only answer is to provide state support for this employment (however unpalatable that maybe to those on the right). This could be in the form of providing specific places of work (as in the Remploy model), or subsidising employers to help make individual employment more commercially viable (what I think he's getting at).
Your only suggestion of "to raise awareness and reduce stigma" just doesn't work. A business may want to want to employ disabled people, but if it is not commercially viable - they won't.
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Post by jpm64 on Oct 17, 2014 15:07:51 GMT
That's Mind's response. Are Mind most charities then?
It's also Mind's response to his misjudged comments. Any decent person would be offended by the use of "worth" in this context.
Isn't the real point that we should be talking about a policy that tries to help get more of the disabled into work, rather than a poorly worded response - or are you just wanting to score points (like Miliband) rather than help the solve the problem and actually help the people concerned?
Come on, tell us the answer then? Enlighten us.
To me the only answer is to provide state support for this employment (however unpalatable that maybe to those on the right). This could be in the form of providing specific places of work (as in the Remploy model), or subsidising employers to help make individual employment more commercially viable (what I think he's getting at).
Your only suggestion of "to raise awareness and reduce stigma" just doesn't work. A business may want to want to employ disabled people, but if it is not commercially viable - they won't.
You are right that any decent person would be offended by Freud stating disabled people are not worth the minimum wage... It would seem that Mr Cameron is not offended enough to sack him though As for my only giving a link to the views of MIND perhaps it would be easier and quicker if you gave us a few responses from the "many/most" charities agreeing with Lord Freud's comments !! You are also right that just reducing stigma is not an answer in itself but it is important that we work hard to achieve this and the comments of Lord Freud and the apparent lack of will by this government to remove him does a great deal of harm to the cause of reducing stigma ! I don't disagree with your premise that state support may play a part in getting people in to work but I certainly don't believe anyone in this government would agree with that !!
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Post by ukcstokie on Oct 17, 2014 16:42:13 GMT
That's Mind's response. Are Mind most charities then?
It's also Mind's response to his misjudged comments. Any decent person would be offended by the use of "worth" in this context.
Isn't the real point that we should be talking about a policy that tries to help get more of the disabled into work, rather than a poorly worded response - or are you just wanting to score points (like Miliband) rather than help the solve the problem and actually help the people concerned?
Come on, tell us the answer then? Enlighten us.
To me the only answer is to provide state support for this employment (however unpalatable that maybe to those on the right). This could be in the form of providing specific places of work (as in the Remploy model), or subsidising employers to help make individual employment more commercially viable (what I think he's getting at).
Your only suggestion of "to raise awareness and reduce stigma" just doesn't work. A business may want to want to employ disabled people, but if it is not commercially viable - they won't.
You are right that any decent person would be offended by Freud stating disabled people are not worth the minimum wage... It would seem that Mr Cameron is not offended enough to sack him though As for my only giving a link to the views of MIND perhaps it would be easier and quicker if you gave us a few responses from the "many/most" charities agreeing with Lord Freud's comments !! You are also right that just reducing stigma is not an answer in itself but it is important that we work hard to achieve this and the comments of Lord Freud and the apparent lack of will by this government to remove him does a great deal of harm to the cause of reducing stigma ! I don't disagree with your premise that state support may play a part in getting people in to work but I certainly don't believe anyone in this government would agree with that !! The bit about charities is what I've read reported. As I said previously - charities are reacting to the words, not necessarily the policy. Do I think a minister should be sacked for using the wrong words in an interview? Not really. Have you ever expressed yourself using slightly the wrong words or emphasis - that somebody has taken the wrong way? This is a sensitive area and it's very difficult to always express difficult positions without sometimes picking the wrong words.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 17, 2014 17:00:59 GMT
Not classy just an understanding of what went on, expect more if the Tories are re elected. Boris has ordered water canons you know. 5 people died, hundreds of millions of pounds worth of damage mainly for kids to thieve trainers, wide screen TV's but you think it was some sort of political protest ha ha. Doing a good job of making yourself look silly. “A wide ranging LSE study called Reading the Riots concluded that the major contributory factors were opportunism, perceived social injustice, deprivation, and frustration at the way communities were policed.” I never said it was a political protest, my reasoning was exactly the same as your quote from the LSE!
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 17, 2014 17:44:13 GMT
I don't agree with what he said...but apparently many/most of the charities in this area agree with the approach. Are they puppets to the Tories?
As somebody asked earlier - please share you policy for solving this?
Raising awareness doesn't solve this problem - it's the reluctance of many employers - who are in a competitive market - to employ people who they may not see as commercially viable (either down to productivity levels, investment needed to support the individual, etc.).
Remploy seemed like a good solution - but unfortunately both Labour and the Tories/Libdem alliance didn't see it that way.
But tell us your solution. Most charities agree with the approach ???? Here is MIND's response for you www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/mind-responds-to-reported-comments-of-lord-freud-on-minimum-wage-for-disabled-people/#.VED-2PldXBE Why don't you google the author of Mind's response, Tom Pollard states on his twitter he's a labour party activist so I won't be giving that much credence. The guy who asked the question is called David Scott and had a severely disabled daughter who died you can find plenty of interviews with him after this story explaining what was meant by it. Feel free to attack it for being a crap idea (which it is), there are many reasons it would not work but their only motives are to try and help people out of long term unemployment to assign any other motive is bollocks. And if Labour were so worried about this why did they wait 2 weeks to bring it out into the open.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 17, 2014 17:45:43 GMT
5 people died, hundreds of millions of pounds worth of damage mainly for kids to thieve trainers, wide screen TV's but you think it was some sort of political protest ha ha. Doing a good job of making yourself look silly. “A wide ranging LSE study called Reading the Riots concluded that the major contributory factors were opportunism, perceived social injustice, deprivation, and frustration at the way communities were policed.” I never said it was a political protest, my reasoning was exactly the same as your quote from the LSE! Beyond your wildest dreams people dying in riots, real classy. Bet you can't wait for an Ebola outbreak in the Uk.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 17, 2014 17:59:44 GMT
I never said it was a political protest, my reasoning was exactly the same as your quote from the LSE! Beyond your wildest dreams people dying in riots, real classy. Bet you can't wait for an Ebola outbreak in the Uk. And I never said people dying was "beyond my wildest dreams" Careful what you say please.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 17, 2014 18:13:01 GMT
Beyond your wildest dreams people dying in riots, real classy. Bet you can't wait for an Ebola outbreak in the Uk. And I never said people dying was "beyond my wildest dreams" Careful what you say please. Ok you said riots that people had already at that point died in were beyond your wildest dreams. Not really sure how you think that makes you look any better but there you go.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 17, 2014 18:56:07 GMT
And I never said people dying was "beyond my wildest dreams" Careful what you say please. Ok you said riots that people had already at that point died in were beyond your wildest dreams. Not really sure how you think that makes you look any better but there you go. Beyond my wildest dreams in the respect that it was the first rebellion against this dreadful government. AS highlighted in you quote from the ONS. But like Al, please carry on and take my words out of context.
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Post by robstokie on Oct 17, 2014 19:56:18 GMT
I think the whole comment itself was taken out of context really. However, if you look at the bigger picture, you could say we are not cutting the disabled a fair deal, what with the rigourous tests to see if they are eligible to claim and the whole PIP change with private firms winning the contract to effectively decide how disabled someone is. But, by the same token, you could also argue that some form of focus or employment could undoubtedly build disabled peoples self-esteem, help them feel that they matter and let them contribute to the community in a positive way. To be honest, this whole thing is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Oct 17, 2014 22:29:04 GMT
Lord Freud is a part of Cameron's government, Cameron states he does not represent the views of the government yet he does not sack him ::) As for Salop stating I am "Poking Fun " Let me tell you as someone who as worked in Mental Health services for the past 32 years "Poking Fun" does not even begin to describe how appalling I find this man's comments.... How dare he decide what people are "worth " ? The answer is to raise awareness and reduce stigma not to tell people they are only worth £2 an hour. The fact that the previous Labour government did not tackle this issue either does not excuse the nasty comments of a nasty man representing a nasty party !!
I don't agree with what he said...but apparently many/most of the charities in this area agree with the approach. Are they puppets to the Tories?
As somebody asked earlier - please share you policy for solving this?
Raising awareness doesn't solve this problem - it's the reluctance of many employers - who are in a competitive market - to employ people who they may not see as commercially viable (either down to productivity levels, investment needed to support the individual, etc.).
Remploy seemed like a good solution - but unfortunately both Labour and the Tories/Libdem alliance didn't see it that way.
But tell us your solution. You're wasting your breath mate, not a single post offering a solution.
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Post by ukcstokie on Oct 17, 2014 22:54:33 GMT
I don't agree with what he said...but apparently many/most of the charities in this area agree with the approach. Are they puppets to the Tories?
As somebody asked earlier - please share you policy for solving this?
Raising awareness doesn't solve this problem - it's the reluctance of many employers - who are in a competitive market - to employ people who they may not see as commercially viable (either down to productivity levels, investment needed to support the individual, etc.).
Remploy seemed like a good solution - but unfortunately both Labour and the Tories/Libdem alliance didn't see it that way.
But tell us your solution. You're wasting your breath mate, not a single post offering a solution. Yes I know. :-( Sad that people are overjoyed to jump on a slip up without even bothering to make sensible suggestions on what can be done to help these people.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 17, 2014 23:21:03 GMT
Ok you said riots that people had already at that point died in were beyond your wildest dreams. Not really sure how you think that makes you look any better but there you go. Beyond my wildest dreams in the respect that it was the first rebellion against this dreadful government. AS highlighted in you quote from the ONS. But like Al, please carry on and take my words out of context. Take your words out of context, you mean like 6 hours ago when you said it wasn't a political protest but now you say it was beyond your wildest dreams because it was the first sign of rebellion against this “dreadful government” - presumably you think the yoof didn't like their hairstyles or their suits if it wasn't political? Make your mind up “sunshine” You're moving beyond parody here, my quote is from a LSE report not the ONS. The riots started in London as a result of the Mark Duggan shooting and spread once the yoof realised if they turned up mob handed the police could do fuck all and they could get free trainers and widescreen TV - to try and assign some other motive is quite frankly bollocks. I'll be quite honest i've only ever bought up the beyond my wildest dreams stuff to take the piss, I never really believed you took pleasure in people dying and property being destroyed, after your last few posts maybe I was wrong after all, the context to be clear is people died.
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Post by salopstick on Oct 17, 2014 23:47:19 GMT
Beyond your wildest dreams people dying in riots, real classy. Bet you can't wait for an Ebola outbreak in the Uk. And I never said people dying was "beyond my wildest dreams" Careful what you say please. You said the riots were beyond your wildest dreams The same riots that involved mindless violence, murder, looting and much pain to a lot of innocent people So by reasoning you are against violent uprising against democratic government
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Post by jpm64 on Oct 18, 2014 8:18:19 GMT
You're wasting your breath mate, not a single post offering a solution. Yes I know. :-( Sad that people are overjoyed to jump on a slip up without even bothering to make sensible suggestions on what can be done to help these people. So lets get this right.... A Tory minister states disabled people are not "worth" the minimum wage I highlight the fact on here and state that his comments are appalling and unacceptable and that I feel Cameron should have done more to distance himself and his party from these comments ie sack him and suddenly you feel I should be tasked with finding a solution to this whole issue !! I am not a politician I have told you I feel we need to tackle the whole issue of stigma and agreed with you that State support is needed but we elect politicians ( or not in "Lord" Freud's case ) to find solutions and we are right to expect that they do not make the situation worse by making such crass insensitive comments !!
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 18, 2014 9:35:15 GMT
Yes I know. :-( Sad that people are overjoyed to jump on a slip up without even bothering to make sensible suggestions on what can be done to help these people. So lets get this right.... A Tory minister states disabled people are not "worth" the minimum wage I highlight the fact on here and state that his comments are appalling and unacceptable and that I feel Cameron should have done more to distance himself and his party from these comments ie sack him and suddenly you feel I should be tasked with finding a solution to this whole issue !! I am not a politician I have told you I feel we need to tackle the whole issue of stigma and agreed with you that State support is needed but we elect politicians ( or not in "Lord" Freud's case ) to find solutions and we are right to expect that they do not make the situation worse by making such crass insensitive comments !! Labour had this tape for two weeks before they broke it at PMQ hardly the actions of a party so mortally offended by these words they demand someone's sacking. Leaving it till then almost makes you think it was done to divert from the unemployment figures or Ed's poor performance at the party conference, it is possible he just forgot again I suppose.... I don't think Cameron needed to say or do anymore the public have enough about them to see through Labour's stage managed mock outrage and anyone who has listened or read more about the context of the conversation can be in no doubt when the intent behind the words was. The only good that may come from this is the public may force all parties to do something.
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