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Post by Jamo on the wing on Sept 30, 2014 10:48:06 GMT
No I don't, but he would add impetus to our attacks which would be a start Charlie didn't do much again last night as he didn't at QPR. I'm a big fan of his but the position he plays requires him to be more mobile and move the ball quicker than he is at present. That's why Ireland will play once he's fit.
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Post by reddipotter on Sept 30, 2014 10:49:48 GMT
I didn't boo N'Zonzi last night- I never do that to our players. But I certainly groaned on many occasions as his first touch consistently took him back to face his own goal and as he (on at least three occasions) had a run with space in front of him only to stop and turn back. He brings far too many moves to a grinding halt. His passing stats will be good because he almost always goes for the easy option. I wonder how many of those forward passes travelled more than a few yards.
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N'zonzi
Sept 30, 2014 10:51:20 GMT
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Post by countofmontecristo on Sept 30, 2014 10:51:20 GMT
As successful passing forwards as he is backwards I love Stats! I think that's the whole point. If you want to be instrumental in setting up attacks/goals then there is an element of risk in positive forward play. Being as successful in your attacking play passing as in your ball retention passing would suggest that those risks are not being taken. That's the crux of the discussion.
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N'zonzi
Sept 30, 2014 10:52:48 GMT
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Post by upthefud on Sept 30, 2014 10:52:48 GMT
No I don't, but he would add impetus to our attacks which would be a start Charlie didn't do much again last night as he didn't at QPR. I'm a big fan of his but the position he plays requires him to be more mobile and move the ball quicker than he is at present. That's why Ireland will play once he's fit. If you look at what I suggested I've got Ireland back in. Charlie Glenn Ireland.
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N'zonzi
Sept 30, 2014 10:55:38 GMT
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Post by upthefud on Sept 30, 2014 10:55:38 GMT
N'Zonzi's lack of forward drive caused us problems!!
If you allow the other team to reset and play it back, eventually they pressure the back four, which results in us lumping it forward under pressure and losing it.
Give me all the pro Zonz stats you like but if you watched the game instead of looking at opta you'd see he was our weak link
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Sept 30, 2014 10:57:25 GMT
Charlie didn't do much again last night as he didn't at QPR. I'm a big fan of his but the position he plays requires him to be more mobile and move the ball quicker than he is at present. That's why Ireland will play once he's fit. If you look at what I suggested I've got Ireland back in. Charlie Glenn Ireland. Charlie isn't a holding midfielder in the true sense of the term. He can sit deep and pick passes but he isn't disciplined enough to play in the position.
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N'zonzi
Sept 30, 2014 11:00:39 GMT
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Post by upthefud on Sept 30, 2014 11:00:39 GMT
If you look at what I suggested I've got Ireland back in. Charlie Glenn Ireland. Charlie isn't a holding midfielder in the true sense of the term. He can sit deep and pick passes but he isn't disciplined enough to play in the position. He played there when he got rave reviews at Blackpool. I didn't see N'Zonzi pressure the ball or put challenges in last night, we'd lose a little but gain a lot by having someone speed our play up
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Sept 30, 2014 11:02:55 GMT
Charlie isn't a holding midfielder in the true sense of the term. He can sit deep and pick passes but he isn't disciplined enough to play in the position. He played there when he got rave reviews at Blackpool. I didn't see N'Zonzi pressure the ball or put challenges in last night, we'd lose a little but gain a lot by having someone speed our play up He played well individually but Blackpool conceded goals for fun. We now have loads more offensive minded players which is why we have to balance it off playing two defensive midfielders.
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Post by Kjones9 on Sept 30, 2014 11:04:52 GMT
Charlie isn't a holding midfielder in the true sense of the term. He can sit deep and pick passes but he isn't disciplined enough to play in the position. He played there when he got rave reviews at Blackpool. I didn't see N'Zonzi pressure the ball or put challenges in last night, we'd lose a little but gain a lot by having someone speed our play up I think that you spent far too much time last night micro analysing N'zonzi's right toenail and failed to see that Charlie Adam actually failed to deliver anything 'forward thinking' either.
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N'zonzi
Sept 30, 2014 11:06:50 GMT
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Post by upthefud on Sept 30, 2014 11:06:50 GMT
He played there when he got rave reviews at Blackpool. I didn't see N'Zonzi pressure the ball or put challenges in last night, we'd lose a little but gain a lot by having someone speed our play up He played well individually but Blackpool conceded goals for fun. We now have loads more offensive minded players which is why we have to balance it off playing two defensive midfielders. Blackpool conceded for fun but he didn't have Begovic Shawcross and Whelan around him. They also scored and created a lot with DJ Campbell and Gary Taylor-Fletcher. It's alright having these offensively minded players but our slow style does nothing to help get them in behind when we try to spring.
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N'zonzi
Sept 30, 2014 11:08:27 GMT
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Post by upthefud on Sept 30, 2014 11:08:27 GMT
He played there when he got rave reviews at Blackpool. I didn't see N'Zonzi pressure the ball or put challenges in last night, we'd lose a little but gain a lot by having someone speed our play up I think that you spent far too much time last night micro analysing N'zonzi's right toenail and failed to see that Charlie Adam actually failed to deliver anything 'forward thinking' either. Hence I want to drop him back where he'd see more of the ball. What's he supposed to do if the back 7 are passing it between themselves then lumping it forward?
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Post by Onneravineet on Sept 30, 2014 11:12:38 GMT
That would probably be because Newcastle had to be more open as they were one down It's all relitive Or we didn't impose ourselves on the game against a team struggling for confidence? I was very concerned first half because we offered no threat, never closed the ball down and we were still cut open on numerous occasions. Without Shawcross we'd have gone in behind. Their shot that Bego saved came from the fact that N'Zonzi couldn't be arsed to close down their short corner. Begovic went absolutely mental at him and rightly so For me, everything that was missing from our performance was N'Zonzi's role. I'd drop Adam back with Whelan for Sunderland and start with Ireland next week Excuse me but you can't just make things up to try and prove a point? Struggling for confidence? How? In their last two games they've come from behind to grab a draw in a match they deserved to go on and win and then came from behind to beat Palace with 10 men. They played better than Leicester. played much better and in Sissoko I think they have a fantastic player. They moved the ball around far better than both Villa and Leicester.
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N'zonzi
Sept 30, 2014 11:15:13 GMT
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Post by upthefud on Sept 30, 2014 11:15:13 GMT
Or we didn't impose ourselves on the game against a team struggling for confidence? I was very concerned first half because we offered no threat, never closed the ball down and we were still cut open on numerous occasions. Without Shawcross we'd have gone in behind. Their shot that Bego saved came from the fact that N'Zonzi couldn't be arsed to close down their short corner. Begovic went absolutely mental at him and rightly so For me, everything that was missing from our performance was N'Zonzi's role. I'd drop Adam back with Whelan for Sunderland and start with Ireland next week Excuse me but you can't just make things up to try and prove a point? Struggling for confidence? How? In their last two games they've come from behind to grab a draw in a match they deserved to go on and win and then came from behind to beat Palace with 10 men. They played better than Leicester. played much better and in Sissoko I think they have a fantastic player. They moved the ball around far better than both Villa and Leicester. Pardew out banners all over the stadium? Rumours that Ashley was going to sack him after the game? 1 win and 8 defeats from their previous 9 away games? Thumped 4-0 at Southampton? Scraped a 2-2 draw at home to Hull? They passed the ball because we allowed them to, if we'd have gotten in their faces then they were there for the taking
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Post by Onneravineet on Sept 30, 2014 11:16:19 GMT
N'Zonzi's lack of forward drive caused us problems!! If you allow the other team to reset and play it back, eventually they pressure the back four, which results in us lumping it forward under pressure and losing it. Give me all the pro Zonz stats you like but if you watched the game instead of looking at opta you'd see he was our weak link Absolute tripe. Utter made up dross. He is a class player and if you can't see that then that, for me, is a measure of the value of your opinion. We are lucky to have him and we should enjoy it whilst he is a Stoke player.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Sept 30, 2014 11:18:17 GMT
Or we didn't impose ourselves on the game against a team struggling for confidence? I was very concerned first half because we offered no threat, never closed the ball down and we were still cut open on numerous occasions. Without Shawcross we'd have gone in behind. Their shot that Bego saved came from the fact that N'Zonzi couldn't be arsed to close down their short corner. Begovic went absolutely mental at him and rightly so For me, everything that was missing from our performance was N'Zonzi's role. I'd drop Adam back with Whelan for Sunderland and start with Ireland next week Excuse me but you can't just make things up to try and prove a point? Struggling for confidence? How? In their last two games they've come from behind to grab a draw in a match they deserved to go on and win and then came from behind to beat Palace with 10 men. They played better than Leicester. played much better and in Sissoko I think they have a fantastic player. They moved the ball around far better than both Villa and Leicester. Agreed. They were infinitely better than both of our previous home opponents.
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Post by Gods on Sept 30, 2014 11:19:52 GMT
Or we didn't impose ourselves on the game against a team struggling for confidence? I was very concerned first half because we offered no threat, never closed the ball down and we were still cut open on numerous occasions. Without Shawcross we'd have gone in behind. Their shot that Bego saved came from the fact that N'Zonzi couldn't be arsed to close down their short corner. Begovic went absolutely mental at him and rightly so For me, everything that was missing from our performance was N'Zonzi's role. I'd drop Adam back with Whelan for Sunderland and start with Ireland next week Excuse me but you can't just make things up to try and prove a point? Struggling for confidence? How? In their last two games they've come from behind to grab a draw in a match they deserved to go on and win and then came from behind to beat Palace with 10 men. They played better than Leicester. played much better and in Sissoko I think they have a fantastic player. They moved the ball around far better than both Villa and Leicester. Yes. Newcastle have a far better playing staff than either Leicester or Villa and with or without Mr. Pardew will finish above both of them.
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Post by adi on Sept 30, 2014 11:21:09 GMT
As successful passing forwards as he is backwards I love Stats! They aren't subjective!
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Post by adi on Sept 30, 2014 11:22:08 GMT
N'Zonzi's lack of forward drive caused us problems!! If you allow the other team to reset and play it back, eventually they pressure the back four, which results in us lumping it forward under pressure and losing it. Give me all the pro Zonz stats you like but if you watched the game instead of looking at opta you'd see he was our weak link I did watch the game.... Sooooo
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Post by Onneravineet on Sept 30, 2014 11:22:31 GMT
Excuse me but you can't just make things up to try and prove a point? Struggling for confidence? How? In their last two games they've come from behind to grab a draw in a match they deserved to go on and win and then came from behind to beat Palace with 10 men. They played better than Leicester. played much better and in Sissoko I think they have a fantastic player. They moved the ball around far better than both Villa and Leicester. Pardew out banners all over the stadium? Rumours that Ashley was going to sack him after the game? 1 win and 8 defeats from their previous 9 away games? Thumped 4-0 at Southampton? Scraped a 2-2 draw at home to Hull? They passed the ball because we allowed them to, if we'd have gotten in their faces then they were there for the taking Due to Ashley's shrewd business like decisions the squad Pardew has is not as good as the team that finished 5th in the Prem. The age of recruiting players under 24 on low wages and selling whatever stars that are unearthed has badly damaged the team. I would suggest that they buried their 4 nil showing at Southampton after coming back from 2 down against Hull to claim a draw that they deserved to then go on and win and then also winning with 10 at Palace. We failed to come back from a single goal in our last two at home so I would suggest it would be us that lacked a little in confidence and were probably more nervy due to it being a must win game for us! To a man they were far better than Leicester and also Villa with the exception of Delph.
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Post by Gods on Sept 30, 2014 11:22:55 GMT
Interesting stuff, I'd like to know what the typical proportion of forward to backward passes is for a Defensive Midfield player to put some perspective around that? No agenda here. I LOVE the Zonz! Not sure but Adam and Whelan had higher forward pass %s than N'Zonzi, but also had worse completion stats. Do we therefore need all 3 to be supplying the forward passes? It seems that's what Whelan and Adam are there to do. N'Zonzi in the... Defensive third: 6 out of 7 backward, 1 forward Middle third: 7 out of 21 backward, 6 forward Attacking third: 2 out of 16 backward, 12 forward That proves very clearly that Zonz continues the defensive motion when we are defending, mixes it up when the ball is in the midfield area and continues the attacking momentum when we are attacking. Now you may say to me he should always pass forward when the ball is in the middle of the park but if the pass is not on or the right runs have not been made why simply give it away? I would characterise that as sensible play
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Post by adi on Sept 30, 2014 11:30:38 GMT
Yea but they're only stats, you can't argue with the oracles on the oatcake! Stats mean nothing and we should only value the opinion of the experts on here....apparently!
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N'zonzi
Sept 30, 2014 11:43:06 GMT
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Post by upthefud on Sept 30, 2014 11:43:06 GMT
Yea but they're only stats, you can't argue with the oracles on the oatcake! Stats mean nothing and we should only value the opinion of the experts on here....apparently! So you don't think he broke up attacks? Not that I agree with it but the crowd didn't show their frustration for nothing
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N'zonzi
Sept 30, 2014 11:44:17 GMT
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Post by Kjones9 on Sept 30, 2014 11:44:17 GMT
Oatcake Mourinho
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Post by metalhead on Sept 30, 2014 11:46:36 GMT
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N'zonzi
Sept 30, 2014 11:47:46 GMT
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Post by Kjones9 on Sept 30, 2014 11:47:46 GMT
No, not at all. What's your point shug?
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Post by metalhead on Sept 30, 2014 11:53:15 GMT
No, not at all. What's your point shug? You refuse to allow other peoples opinions, or even acknowledge them. Worse still, your only style of response is to belittle them if they don't agree with you. If someone wants to come here and say N'Zonzi didn't play well they're fully within their rights to. I pay my money, I go to the games, I see it for myself and I judge. I thought N'Zonzi had a fairly reasonable game. I don't think he was outstanding like you always do, but I thought he was one of our better players. He held the ball well, didn't give it away, didn't make any mistakes, he could have perhaps driven forward once or twice when he had the chance but he certainly didn't play badly. However if someone comes on here and says "turn back N'Zonzi etc" they're fully within their right to. Who made you the thought police? Stop being so pompous and open your mind a little bit.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 30, 2014 11:54:13 GMT
No I don't, but he would add impetus to our attacks which would be a start Charlie didn't do much again last night as he didn't at QPR. I'm a big fan of his but the position he plays requires him to be more mobile and move the ball quicker than he is at present. That's why Ireland will play once he's fit. Did you not see Ireland at Sunderland, Jamo. Horrendous is being kind.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Sept 30, 2014 11:59:03 GMT
Charlie didn't do much again last night as he didn't at QPR. I'm a big fan of his but the position he plays requires him to be more mobile and move the ball quicker than he is at present. That's why Ireland will play once he's fit. Did you not see Ireland at Sunderland, Jamo. Horrendous is being kind. I know mate but we are talking about a player coming back from a good lay off straight after the start of a season. I'm still pretty sure Hughes sees him as number one in that role once he's fit.
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Post by metalhead on Sept 30, 2014 11:59:29 GMT
Did you not see Ireland at Sunderland, Jamo. Horrendous is being kind. I know mate but we are talking about a player coming back from a good lay off straight after the start of a season. I'm still pretty sure Hughes sees him as number one in that role once he's fit. I thought Ireland played well last night.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 30, 2014 12:01:02 GMT
I know mate but we are talking about a player coming back from a good lay off straight after the start of a season. I'm still pretty sure Hughes sees him as number one in that role once he's fit. I thought Ireland played well last night. Some nice touches, more energy than Charlie but two horrendous efforts on goal and one abysmal cross from a brilliant position.
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