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Post by salopstick on Sept 17, 2014 13:00:06 GMT
potentially
only prem teams can have them
they cant be loaned out
numbers cut by 50%
changes to work permit rules
minimum transfer fee to ensure only the best non EUs come here
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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 17, 2014 13:10:12 GMT
potentially only prem teams can have them they cant be loaned out numbers cut by 50% changes to work permit rules minimum transfer fee to ensure only the best non EUs come here Greg Dyke basically said that unknown players who are from nations outside the top 50 in the rankings would only be allowed if a top club wanted them. The journalist basically questioned him on the fact that under new rules, Adebayor wouldn't have got in when he signed for Arsenal. The response was astonishing and explained perfectly why we weren't allowed to bring in Agudelo whilst at the same time Chelsea got some teenage African easily. If a top club wants you you're an elite player or potentially elite player no matter what be if you're Stoke City, Hull City or similar, you're not. Simples! |
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Post by dutchstokie on Sept 17, 2014 13:11:25 GMT
......potentially meaning the already over inflated prices for british/english players rises even further..?  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 13:25:45 GMT
potentially only prem teams can have them they cant be loaned out numbers cut by 50% changes to work permit rules minimum transfer fee to ensure only the best non EUs come here Greg Dyke basically said that unknown players who are from nations outside the top 50 in the rankings would only be allowed if a top club wanted them. The journalist basically questioned him on the fact that under new rules, Adebayor wouldn't have got in when he signed for Arsenal. The response was astonishing and explained perfectly why we weren't allowed to bring in Agudelo whilst at the same time Chelsea got some teenage African easily. If a top club wants you you're an elite player or potentially elite player no matter what be if you're Stoke City, Hull City or similar, you're not. Simples! what was this astonishing response exactly??? i think you've comletely missed the idea of the "Elite" player mate..Dyke has labelled ALL those players that fit within the requirements as "Elite players" so any non-eu player that is able to come over is an "Elite" player full stop.it's not as if some can come over and we'll also make exceptions for "Elite players" as well...the old way where you could try to appeal against a declined player by telling the FA that he was something special so can they please make an exception will be completely gone. that was the old use of the word "Elite" in this situation, the new meaning is simply that any player that makes the grade and is allowed to come over is now termed "Elite" the plans actually make it more of a level playing field in terms of which Prem clubs can get non-EU players as it completely takes out the subjective idea of who does/doesn't deserve to come over. it will be done purely on a basis of are they in the top 50 FIFA rankings and have they played the required amount of games for their country in the time frame....that's it, nothing else and there will no longer be an appeal process to try to prove that player x who has been initially declined a VISA is actually really really good because Jose, Louis, Bredan says so (which is where the "Big" clubs get their players through the loop holes). in short, if these rules come in then the big clubs will have their players declined just as often as we have in the past if they don't meet the requirements. requirements: 1) The player must represent a country ranked in the top 50 of FIFAs rankings 2) The player must have played over 30% of that nation's competitive matches over the last 2 years if they are ranked in the top 30 ( asignificant decrease in the 75% previously) 3) If the player is bought for more than 10-15 million then he would be considered to be an elite player and therefore be granted entry (10-15 mill is quite a common fee nowadays for lots of Prem clubs not just the traditional big boys so definitely not out of reach for virtually all Prem clubs) "We want to change the system. We think the current system is a bit of a farce - 80 per cent get in on appeal because the manager turns up with a video showing he looks a good player!" "We think it should stop being that - it should be that there are a set of criteria - those criteria decide whether a player should come in. "We've come up with a different set of criteria which we're now asking the Football League and the Premier League - and others - for their views on. "We hope the result is something like 50 per cent less players from outside the EU will come and play here and the aim, of course, is that we hope that some of those slots in the squads will go to younger English players." Dyke added: "We don't mind players being loaned out. What we're saying is if you're going to bring this player in, then why do you then want to loan him out if he's an elite player, which is what the law says? "We want managers to think before they sign this player, they've got to be pretty sure they'll want him in the squad and they will want to play him. "The rules say elite non-European players, the very best, should be allowed to come in - we agree with that. What we're saying is a lot aren't and then don't play that much and they do take squad places. "A lot, particularly in the Football League, disappear after a year or so. The system doesn't work at the moment. "Let's do what the law said was intended to do - let the best players come in but let's give those squad places, the rest of them, to young English kids." |
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Post by salopstick on Sept 17, 2014 13:35:38 GMT
potentially only prem teams can have them they cant be loaned out numbers cut by 50% changes to work permit rules minimum transfer fee to ensure only the best non EUs come here Greg Dyke basically said that unknown players who are from nations outside the top 50 in the rankings would only be allowed if a top club wanted them. The journalist basically questioned him on the fact that under new rules, Adebayor wouldn't have got in when he signed for Arsenal. The response was astonishing and explained perfectly why we weren't allowed to bring in Agudelo whilst at the same time Chelsea got some teenage African easily. If a top club wants you you're an elite player or potentially elite player no matter what be if you're Stoke City, Hull City or similar, you're not. Simples! isnt that the point though we should be developing our own players instead of developing other countries. ive not much of a problem of bringing in the top finished articles but i think we should clamp down on th eforeign under 18s that come here |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 13:41:11 GMT
Greg Dyke basically said that unknown players who are from nations outside the top 50 in the rankings would only be allowed if a top club wanted them. The journalist basically questioned him on the fact that under new rules, Adebayor wouldn't have got in when he signed for Arsenal. The response was astonishing and explained perfectly why we weren't allowed to bring in Agudelo whilst at the same time Chelsea got some teenage African easily. If a top club wants you you're an elite player or potentially elite player no matter what be if you're Stoke City, Hull City or similar, you're not. Simples! isnt that the point though we should be developing our own players instead of developing other countries. ive not much of a problem of bringing in the top finished articles but i think we should clamp down on th e foreign under 18s that come hereand then get loaned out to lower league or foreign clubs where they achieve nothing, don't push on and have their careers basically ruined by the "Big boys" purely because they wanted to hoover up every player who even had the slightest potential in case they turned out to be any good years down the line. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Sept 17, 2014 13:56:51 GMT
How can you enforce that loan rule though?
Will the FA be able to revoke his UK work visa and block him from working in Europe?
I dont like that 10m rule. How many clubs in the Premier can gamble 10m on a young foreigner. A rule should be a rule with no way of getting around it by paying EXTRA money. Only top 6 clubs will be able to do that
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Post by salopstick on Sept 17, 2014 14:05:57 GMT
How can you enforce that loan rule though? Will the FA be able to revoke his UK work visa and block him from working in Europe? I dont like that 10m rule. How many clubs in the Premier can gamble 10m on a young foreigner. A rule should be a rule with no way of getting around it by paying EXTRA money. Only top 6 clubs will be able to do that i read £15m but regardless, even chelsea and man city wouldnt be chucking £15m+ regulary at young unknown foreigners plus it would still come into FFP |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 17, 2014 14:19:33 GMT
Greg Dyke basically said that unknown players who are from nations outside the top 50 in the rankings would only be allowed if a top club wanted them. The journalist basically questioned him on the fact that under new rules, Adebayor wouldn't have got in when he signed for Arsenal. The response was astonishing and explained perfectly why we weren't allowed to bring in Agudelo whilst at the same time Chelsea got some teenage African easily. If a top club wants you you're an elite player or potentially elite player no matter what be if you're Stoke City, Hull City or similar, you're not. Simples! what was this astonishing response exactly??? i think you've comletely missed the idea of the "Elite" player mate..Dyke has labelled ALL those players that fit within the requirements as "Elite players" so any non-eu player that is able to come over is an "Elite" player full stop.it's not as if some can come over and we'll also make exceptions for "Elite players" as well...the old way where you could try to appeal against a declined player by telling the FA that he was something special so can they please make an exception will be completely gone. that was the old use of the word "Elite" in this situation, the new meaning is simply that any player that makes the grade and is allowed to come over is now termed "Elite" the plans actually make it more of a level playing field in terms of which Prem clubs can get non-EU players as it completely takes out the subjective idea of who does/doesn't deserve to come over. it will be done purely on a basis of are they in the top 50 FIFA rankings and have they played the required amount of games for their country in the time frame....that's it, nothing else and there will no longer be an appeal process to try to prove that player x who has been initially declined a VISA is actually really really good because Jose, Louis, Bredan says so (which is where the "Big" clubs get their players through the loop holes). in short, if these rules come in then the big clubs will have their players declined just as often as we have in the past if they don't meet the requirements. requirements: 1) The player must represent a country ranked in the top 50 of FIFAs rankings 2) The player must have played over 30% of that nation's competitive matches over the last 2 years if they are ranked in the top 30 ( asignificant decrease in the 75% previously) 3) If the player is bought for more than 10-15 million then he would be considered to be an elite player and therefore be granted entry (10-15 mill is quite a common fee nowadays for lots of Prem clubs not just the traditional big boys so definitely not out of reach for virtually all Prem clubs) "We want to change the system. We think the current system is a bit of a farce - 80 per cent get in on appeal because the manager turns up with a video showing he looks a good player!" "We think it should stop being that - it should be that there are a set of criteria - those criteria decide whether a player should come in. "We've come up with a different set of criteria which we're now asking the Football League and the Premier League - and others - for their views on. "We hope the result is something like 50 per cent less players from outside the EU will come and play here and the aim, of course, is that we hope that some of those slots in the squads will go to younger English players." Dyke added: "We don't mind players being loaned out. What we're saying is if you're going to bring this player in, then why do you then want to loan him out if he's an elite player, which is what the law says? "We want managers to think before they sign this player, they've got to be pretty sure they'll want him in the squad and they will want to play him. "The rules say elite non-European players, the very best, should be allowed to come in - we agree with that. What we're saying is a lot aren't and then don't play that much and they do take squad places. "A lot, particularly in the Football League, disappear after a year or so. The system doesn't work at the moment. "Let's do what the law said was intended to do - let the best players come in but let's give those squad places, the rest of them, to young English kids." It was astonishing because the response when questioned contradicted the mass interview you quote and essentially alluded to two loopholes in it. One was that it doesn't apply on transfer fees in excess of 10m (chicken feed for the mega clubs but transfer record territory for clubs such as ourselves) and the response which essentiaLly said that a clubs track record in developing young non EU players would mean that new rules wouldn't eliminate the chance of an Adebayor type getting through the gates. As I said, astonishing. Its either removing subjectivity or it isn't. No subjectivity enabled Agudelo to get in yet it did allow Chelsea to get an african teenager in. Quelle surprise!!! EDIT - I fully understand and approve of the sentiment if applied rigourously across all clubs in all leagues but that clearly isn't the case. Its yet another half baked idea, full of good intentions but with sufficient pandering to ensure big clubs don't suffer. That in itself is ridiculous because any young english player emerging at Stoke or Hull for example, still wouldn't benefit the National side until they moved to an "elite club". See Callum Chambers and John Stones! |
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Post by Veritas on Sept 17, 2014 14:19:56 GMT
I agree with the intention behind a change such as this which is to increase the development of UK talent but this will have only limited effect while we are in the EU as it has no effect on anyone carrying and EU passport, and no I am not a UKIP headcase using this thread to advocate pulling out of Europe.
If we are going to limit non EU players there is no need for any complicated formulas simply restrict every team to a maximum number of say 2 players irrespective of where they are or how much they cost
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Post by slother on Sept 17, 2014 14:47:55 GMT
What happens to the foreign player if their club is relegated from the Premier League?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 14:50:54 GMT
what was this astonishing response exactly??? i think you've comletely missed the idea of the "Elite" player mate..Dyke has labelled ALL those players that fit within the requirements as "Elite players" so any non-eu player that is able to come over is an "Elite" player full stop.it's not as if some can come over and we'll also make exceptions for "Elite players" as well...the old way where you could try to appeal against a declined player by telling the FA that he was something special so can they please make an exception will be completely gone. that was the old use of the word "Elite" in this situation, the new meaning is simply that any player that makes the grade and is allowed to come over is now termed "Elite" the plans actually make it more of a level playing field in terms of which Prem clubs can get non-EU players as it completely takes out the subjective idea of who does/doesn't deserve to come over. it will be done purely on a basis of are they in the top 50 FIFA rankings and have they played the required amount of games for their country in the time frame....that's it, nothing else and there will no longer be an appeal process to try to prove that player x who has been initially declined a VISA is actually really really good because Jose, Louis, Bredan says so (which is where the "Big" clubs get their players through the loop holes). in short, if these rules come in then the big clubs will have their players declined just as often as we have in the past if they don't meet the requirements. requirements: 1) The player must represent a country ranked in the top 50 of FIFAs rankings 2) The player must have played over 30% of that nation's competitive matches over the last 2 years if they are ranked in the top 30 ( asignificant decrease in the 75% previously) 3) If the player is bought for more than 10-15 million then he would be considered to be an elite player and therefore be granted entry (10-15 mill is quite a common fee nowadays for lots of Prem clubs not just the traditional big boys so definitely not out of reach for virtually all Prem clubs) "We want to change the system. We think the current system is a bit of a farce - 80 per cent get in on appeal because the manager turns up with a video showing he looks a good player!" "We think it should stop being that - it should be that there are a set of criteria - those criteria decide whether a player should come in. "We've come up with a different set of criteria which we're now asking the Football League and the Premier League - and others - for their views on. "We hope the result is something like 50 per cent less players from outside the EU will come and play here and the aim, of course, is that we hope that some of those slots in the squads will go to younger English players." Dyke added: "We don't mind players being loaned out. What we're saying is if you're going to bring this player in, then why do you then want to loan him out if he's an elite player, which is what the law says? "We want managers to think before they sign this player, they've got to be pretty sure they'll want him in the squad and they will want to play him. "The rules say elite non-European players, the very best, should be allowed to come in - we agree with that. What we're saying is a lot aren't and then don't play that much and they do take squad places. "A lot, particularly in the Football League, disappear after a year or so. The system doesn't work at the moment. "Let's do what the law said was intended to do - let the best players come in but let's give those squad places, the rest of them, to young English kids." It was astonishing because the response when questioned contradicted the mass interview you quote and essentially alluded to two loopholes in it. One was that it doesn't apply on transfer fees in excess of 10m (chicken feed for the mega clubs but transfer record territory for clubs such as ourselves) and the response which essentiaLly said that a clubs track record in developing young non EU players would mean that new rules wouldn't eliminate the chance of an Adebayor type getting through the gates. As I said, astonishing. Its either removing subjectivity or it isn't. No subjectivity enabled Agudelo to get in yet it did allow Chelsea to get an african teenager in. Quelle surprise!!! EDIT - I fully understand and approve of the sentiment if applied rigourously across all clubs in all leagues but that clearly isn't the case. Its yet another half baked idea, full of good intentions but with sufficient pandering to ensure big clubs don't suffer. That in itself is ridiculous because any young english player emerging at Stoke or Hull for example, still wouldn't benefit the National side until they moved to an "elite club". See Callum Chambers and John Stones! they're not really loopholes just to benefit big clubs though. in years gone by then 10mill would be out of reach fo rmost clubs but this last transfer window has shown that it's no longer a figure that club fans would be astonished by.....Hull spent 7 and 8 mill on Livermore and Snodgrass so not a million miles away, Leicester's fee for Ulloa was 8m rising to 10, Newcastle spent over 10 mill on Cabela, Southampton bought 4 players for 10 mill or more, Sunderland spent 10 mill on rodwell, we spent 10 mill on Crouch, WBA spent 10 mill on Ideye.......it's club record territory for a few clubs but certainly won't be over the next few years anyway as prices are rising whether we like it or not and it's only for Prem teams anyway who will be able to afford the odd player of that monetary realm. they'll have to be damn good players for a club to want to risk that kind of fee but that's exactly the point of why they're doing this i.e. to ensure that those coming over ARE of the right quality rather than just any old player being stockpiled by a big club on the off chance they turn into something good further down the line. it will actually stop the big boys from just going out and "stockpiling" all the non-eu talent (as they currently do with Chelsea for example having nearly 30 players out on loan!) as they won't be able to just snap them up and then loan them out; they will basically HAVE to play them in their squads which will discourage the big boys from just going out and buying all and sundry as they currently are! i also think that when he was talking about a club's track record etc. all he meant was that if you as a club have a good track record of developing younger talent then you will still get the likes of Adebayor coming through as you'll be able to turn a potentially good non-eu player who qualifies to come over into a top class player. i don't think for a second that he meant that IF you have had a good track record in the past then you'll get special exceptions to bring in players that don't fit the criteria at all...that certainly isn't in the details of what has now been sent to consultation.maybe just badly worded on his part or a misunderstanding of what he said on your part |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 14:52:13 GMT
What happens to the foreign player if their club is relegated from the Premier League? presumably they could remain at the club. the rules are for bringing new players in, i don't see how they could basically sack a player because the club were relegated. that's jut my guess though...it's a good question. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Sept 17, 2014 14:58:44 GMT
It was astonishing because the response when questioned contradicted the mass interview you quote and essentially alluded to two loopholes in it. One was that it doesn't apply on transfer fees in excess of 10m (chicken feed for the mega clubs but transfer record territory for clubs such as ourselves) and the response which essentiaLly said that a clubs track record in developing young non EU players would mean that new rules wouldn't eliminate the chance of an Adebayor type getting through the gates. As I said, astonishing. Its either removing subjectivity or it isn't. No subjectivity enabled Agudelo to get in yet it did allow Chelsea to get an african teenager in. Quelle surprise!!! EDIT - I fully understand and approve of the sentiment if applied rigourously across all clubs in all leagues but that clearly isn't the case. Its yet another half baked idea, full of good intentions but with sufficient pandering to ensure big clubs don't suffer. That in itself is ridiculous because any young english player emerging at Stoke or Hull for example, still wouldn't benefit the National side until they moved to an "elite club". See Callum Chambers and John Stones! they're not really loopholes just to benefit big clubs though. in years gone by then 10mill would be out of reach fo rmost clubs but this last transfer window has shown that it's no longer a figure that club fans would be astonished by.....Hull spent 7 and 8 mill on Livermore and Snodgrass so not a million miles away, Leicester's fee for Ulloa was 8m rising to 10, Newcastle spent over 10 mill on Cabela, Southampton bought 4 players for 10 mill or more, Sunderland spent 10 mill on rodwell, we spent 10 mill on Crouch, WBA spent 10 mill on Ideye.......it's club record territory for a few clubs but certainly won't be over the next few years anyway as prices are rising whether we like it or not and it's only for Prem teams anyway who will be afford the odd player of that monetary realm. it will actually stop the big boys from just going out and "stockpiling" all the non-eu talent (as they currently do with Chelsea for example having nearly 30 players out on loan!) as they won't be able to just snap them up and then loan them out; they will basically HAVE to play them in their squads which will discourage the big boys from just going out and buying all and sundry as they currently are! i also think that when he was talking about a club's track record etc. all he meant was that if you as a club have a good track record of developing younger talent then you will still get the likes of Adebayor coming through as you'll be able to turn a potentially good non-eu player who qualifies to come over into a top class player. i don't think for a second that he meant that IF you have had a good track record in the past then you'll get special exceptions to bring in players that don't fit the criteria at all...that certainly isn't in the details of what has now been sent to consultation.maybe just badly worded on his part or a misunderstanding of what he said on your part But why 10m or 15m? I dont understand how they calculate the amount. Why not 50 pence or 200m or 2m or 5m? There is simply no objectivity involved. 10m does not guarantee quality at any age. Look at Juan Veron 20 odd million, Fellaini 27. The price is no indication of quality. Geoff Cameron was 2.5m and Premier League standard Ricardo Fuller would never have made it to England Sorry but that is pure bullshit from Gregg Dyke and is based upon gut feeling. Hes been working on this for over a year and he comes up with that random bollocks? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 15:11:57 GMT
they're not really loopholes just to benefit big clubs though. in years gone by then 10mill would be out of reach fo rmost clubs but this last transfer window has shown that it's no longer a figure that club fans would be astonished by.....Hull spent 7 and 8 mill on Livermore and Snodgrass so not a million miles away, Leicester's fee for Ulloa was 8m rising to 10, Newcastle spent over 10 mill on Cabela, Southampton bought 4 players for 10 mill or more, Sunderland spent 10 mill on rodwell, we spent 10 mill on Crouch, WBA spent 10 mill on Ideye.......it's club record territory for a few clubs but certainly won't be over the next few years anyway as prices are rising whether we like it or not and it's only for Prem teams anyway who will be afford the odd player of that monetary realm. it will actually stop the big boys from just going out and "stockpiling" all the non-eu talent (as they currently do with Chelsea for example having nearly 30 players out on loan!) as they won't be able to just snap them up and then loan them out; they will basically HAVE to play them in their squads which will discourage the big boys from just going out and buying all and sundry as they currently are! i also think that when he was talking about a club's track record etc. all he meant was that if you as a club have a good track record of developing younger talent then you will still get the likes of Adebayor coming through as you'll be able to turn a potentially good non-eu player who qualifies to come over into a top class player. i don't think for a second that he meant that IF you have had a good track record in the past then you'll get special exceptions to bring in players that don't fit the criteria at all...that certainly isn't in the details of what has now been sent to consultation.maybe just badly worded on his part or a misunderstanding of what he said on your part But why 10m or 15m? I dont understand how they calculate the amount. Why not 50 pence or 200m or 2m or 5m? There is simply no objectivity involved. 10m does not guarantee quality at any age. Look at Juan Veron 20 odd million, Fellaini 27. The price is no indication of quality. Geoff Cameron was 2.5m and Premier League standard Ricardo Fuller would never have made it to England Sorry but that is pure bullshit from Gregg Dyke and is based upon gut feeling. Hes been working on this for over a year and he comes up with that random bollocks? as i said in the above post.......if any club is likely to pay over 10 mill then it's going to be on a player they pretty much know is a good player who will therefore improve the overall quality of the league (using Veron and Fellaini aren't great examples...they're both good players but just didn't work out for Man utd. is all....that's exactly the same as could happen with ANY player of ANY nationality.....Torres was amazing for Liverpool but just doesn't work at Chelsea,Carroll was good for Newcastle but just didn't work for Liverpool; that doesn't make them poor players though !). if it's a random unknown then even Chelsea etc. won't risk 10mill on a player that they HAVE to name in their squad and they also have to reconcile within FFP boundaries. THAT'S the point of this whole thing, to ensure that the players being brought in ARE the quality of players that we want in the Prem if they're foreign players. if it was set at 2mill then you'd still get people taking random gambles on players that just aren't up to scratch and that's what he's trying to get rid of; shit players that are brought over, swamp the league and turn out to be duds that don't help to progress the english talent. P.S. as it happens, Ric could have made it anyway as Jamaica have been within or around the top 50 on many occasions over the last 10-15 years so when they were within the top 50 he could have been bought by a Prem club if he'd played the required amount of games. what they're basically saying is "Fine, there are plenty of African, Asian, South American young players with potential who may develop into great players but we'd rather they did their developing somewhere else so we can concentrate on the english young players with potential developing. when those non-eu players HAVE developed (which you'd expect them to have by the time they've played the required amount of games in a top 50 side) then fine, feel free to come over but we're not just taking anyone and everyone at the expense of a place in the squad for an english player and then just see what happens with them" |
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Post by nott1 on Sept 17, 2014 15:14:38 GMT
Greg Dyke is a prat and we are Stoke City, a top ten club. We should sign who we want, not who Dyke wants us to have.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 15:20:41 GMT
Greg Dyke is a prat and we are Stoke City, a top ten club. We should sign who we want, not who Dyke wants us to have. to be fair, it's not just Dyke that thinks there are too many foreigners in the Prem is it???? plenty on here do too!! personally i think with a bit or ironing out that this idea (making sure the foreigners that come over ARE of a good quality rather than just guessing that they might be in the future which is what currently happens with far too many players especially those snapped up by the top clubs in the Prem) is a far far better idea than just arbitrarily setting a limit on the amount of foreigners you can have. it's basically just saying that you CAN still get in non-eu players as before but makes the requirements they have to meet tighter to ensure they are of the right quality and to ensure that big clubs especially can't just send their "manager who turns up with a video showing them looking good" to an appeal and squeeze them through regardless. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Sept 17, 2014 15:29:38 GMT
But why 10m or 15m? I dont understand how they calculate the amount. Why not 50 pence or 200m or 2m or 5m? There is simply no objectivity involved. 10m does not guarantee quality at any age. Look at Juan Veron 20 odd million, Fellaini 27. The price is no indication of quality. Geoff Cameron was 2.5m and Premier League standard Ricardo Fuller would never have made it to England Sorry but that is pure bullshit from Gregg Dyke and is based upon gut feeling. Hes been working on this for over a year and he comes up with that random bollocks? as i said in the above post.......if any club is likely to pay over 10 mill then it's going to be on a player they pretty much know is a good player who will therefore improve the overall quality of the league (using Veron and Fellaini aren't great examples...they're both good players but just didn't work out for Man utd. is all....that's exactly the same as could happen with ANY player of ANY nationality.....Torres was amazing for Liverpool but just doesn't work at Chelsea,Carroll was good for Newcastle but just didn't work for Liverpool; that doesn't make them poor players though !). if it's a random unknown then even Chelsea etc. won't risk 10mill on a player that they HAVE to name in their squad and they also have to reconcile within FFP boundaries. THAT'S the point of this whole thing, to ensure that the players being brought in ARE the quality of players that we want in the Prem if they're foreign players. if it was set at 2mill then you'd still get people taking random gambles on players that just aren't up to scratch and that's what he's trying to get rid of; shit players that are brought over, swamp the league and turn out to be duds that don't help to progress the english talent. P.S. as it happens, Ric could have made it anyway as Jamaica have been within or around the top 50 on many occasions over the last 10-15 years so when they were within the top 50 he could have been bought by a Prem club if he'd played the required amount of games. what they're basically saying is "Fine, there are plenty of African, Asian, South American young players with potential who may develop into great players but we'd rather they did their developing somewhere else so we can concentrate on the english young players with potential developing. when those non-eu players HAVE developed (which you'd expect them to have by the time they've played the required amount of games in a top 50 side) then fine, feel free to come over but we're not just taking anyone and everyone at the expense of a place in the squad for an english player and then just see what happens with them" no sorry that doesnt answer the question. The rule should be absolute so ALL clubs are effected equally. Setting a limit at 10m WILL mean that the Chelseas/ManU of the world can buy them but Stoke etc cant. 10m is still a drop in the ocean when your annual revenue is 400m a year, but too much for the likes of us on an unproven. The rule patently favours the rich |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Sept 17, 2014 15:32:33 GMT
P.S. If they wanted to make the rule FAIR on everyone then they would set a % of revenue rate. Say like they can only buy a player that costs more than 5% of their revenues
Stoke = 5% * 90mln = 4 mln min. limit
Man United = 5% * 400 mln = 20 mln min. limit
That would be FAIR but of course Dyke wouldnt like that
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 15:37:37 GMT
as i said in the above post.......if any club is likely to pay over 10 mill then it's going to be on a player they pretty much know is a good player who will therefore improve the overall quality of the league (using Veron and Fellaini aren't great examples...they're both good players but just didn't work out for Man utd. is all....that's exactly the same as could happen with ANY player of ANY nationality.....Torres was amazing for Liverpool but just doesn't work at Chelsea,Carroll was good for Newcastle but just didn't work for Liverpool; that doesn't make them poor players though !). if it's a random unknown then even Chelsea etc. won't risk 10mill on a player that they HAVE to name in their squad and they also have to reconcile within FFP boundaries. THAT'S the point of this whole thing, to ensure that the players being brought in ARE the quality of players that we want in the Prem if they're foreign players. if it was set at 2mill then you'd still get people taking random gambles on players that just aren't up to scratch and that's what he's trying to get rid of; shit players that are brought over, swamp the league and turn out to be duds that don't help to progress the english talent. P.S. as it happens, Ric could have made it anyway as Jamaica have been within or around the top 50 on many occasions over the last 10-15 years so when they were within the top 50 he could have been bought by a Prem club if he'd played the required amount of games. what they're basically saying is "Fine, there are plenty of African, Asian, South American young players with potential who may develop into great players but we'd rather they did their developing somewhere else so we can concentrate on the english young players with potential developing. when those non-eu players HAVE developed (which you'd expect them to have by the time they've played the required amount of games in a top 50 side) then fine, feel free to come over but we're not just taking anyone and everyone at the expense of a place in the squad for an english player and then just see what happens with them" no sorry that doesnt answer the question. The rule should be absolute so ALL clubs are effected equally. Setting a limit at 10m WILL mean that the Chelseas/ManU of the world can buy them but Stoke etc cant. 10m is still a drop in the ocean when your annual revenue is 400m a year, but too much for the likes of us on an unproven. The rule patently favours the rich but it doens't!!!!!! at the moment clubs like chelsea take a punt on players then loan them out and see how they do before deciding whether to keep them or sell them (which is why they currently have nearly 20 players out on loan), the new rules will mean they CANNOT do this as loaning them out will NOT be allowed!!! they will HAVE to name them as part of their 25 man squad. not even Cheslea are going to pay over 10 mill for a player they HAVE to play if they're not sure one way or the other about them. THAT's what it's trying to stop. it's saying that if the player doesn't fit the rules (and if they do fit the rules then remember that ANY Prem club can then buy them) then you are making a serious commitment as you'll have to spend a lot to get them in so that club will want to be pretty sure that they are (not maybe or might be but already are) a quality player! these will be players that already command those kinds of fees anyway already so if we're saying we couldn't afford them if these rules come in then they're also players we can't afford now anyway so that's an irrelevant point really. |
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Post by robwahlmann on Sept 17, 2014 16:28:08 GMT
This again means more advantages for the bigger clubs! No bargains to be had for smaller clubs etc. It might be OK that only the top division clubs can have these players, but the higher the price tag is the more in favour of the already best clubs in the country. Not too sure this is a good change overall!?  |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 17, 2014 17:00:15 GMT
But why 10m or 15m? I dont understand how they calculate the amount. Why not 50 pence or 200m or 2m or 5m? There is simply no objectivity involved. 10m does not guarantee quality at any age. Look at Juan Veron 20 odd million, Fellaini 27. The price is no indication of quality. Geoff Cameron was 2.5m and Premier League standard Ricardo Fuller would never have made it to England Sorry but that is pure bullshit from Gregg Dyke and is based upon gut feeling. Hes been working on this for over a year and he comes up with that random bollocks? as i said in the above post.......if any club is likely to pay over 10 mill then it's going to be on a player they pretty much know is a good player who will therefore improve the overall quality of the league (using Veron and Fellaini aren't great examples...they're both good players but just didn't work out for Man utd. is all....that's exactly the same as could happen with ANY player of ANY nationality.....Torres was amazing for Liverpool but just doesn't work at Chelsea,Carroll was good for Newcastle but just didn't work for Liverpool; that doesn't make them poor players though !). if it's a random unknown then even Chelsea etc. won't risk 10mill on a player that they HAVE to name in their squad and they also have to reconcile within FFP boundaries. THAT'S the point of this whole thing, to ensure that the players being brought in ARE the quality of players that we want in the Prem if they're foreign players. if it was set at 2mill then you'd still get people taking random gambles on players that just aren't up to scratch and that's what he's trying to get rid of; shit players that are brought over, swamp the league and turn out to be duds that don't help to progress the english talent. P.S. as it happens, Ric could have made it anyway as Jamaica have been within or around the top 50 on many occasions over the last 10-15 years so when they were within the top 50 he could have been bought by a Prem club if he'd played the required amount of games. what they're basically saying is "Fine, there are plenty of African, Asian, South American young players with potential who may develop into great players but we'd rather they did their developing somewhere else so we can concentrate on the english young players with potential developing. when those non-eu players HAVE developed (which you'd expect them to have by the time they've played the required amount of games in a top 50 side) then fine, feel free to come over but we're not just taking anyone and everyone at the expense of a place in the squad for an english player and then just see what happens with them" You are very conveniently ignoring the fact that the Arsenals and Chelseas of this world are already spending millions upon millions make young kids parents millionaires just to get their kid in the first place. Stoke recently spent 350k getting a 14 year old Swedish kid onto our books. Arsenal were alleged to have spent around 50m on kids over a 5 year period who never got near first team football. Look at Obi Mikel. How much did he cost as a 17 year old? He may even have been younger. He's hardly elite is he. He would possibly be great for a Stoke or a Hull but only a Chelsea or Manure could have got him into the country in the 1st place. As I say, great sentiments but a set of rules designed to give the Elite clubs a way around any restrictions. |
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Post by fca47 on Sept 17, 2014 17:18:35 GMT
Minimum transfer fee - where would that leave Diouf, signed on a free. And what if the next Messi is from Moldova or some country not in the top 50, he can't play in the PL?
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Post by ratters on Sept 17, 2014 17:29:11 GMT
surely a minimum transfer fee contravenes some kind of employment law if the player was deemed eligible to be employed in the uk?
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Post by iglugluk on Sept 17, 2014 17:41:48 GMT
Dyke's UKIPisation of English football............ UK players should be of high enough quality in order that they can they can be playing at the top level. Approach this via youth football not messing about with pointless rules that only exclude non-EU players anyway and which are only likely to affect smaller clubs ( as per usual )
This is knee-jerk pseudo reactionary bollocks as far as I am concerned.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Sept 17, 2014 17:53:17 GMT
This again means more advantages for the bigger clubs! No bargains to be had for smaller clubs etc. It might be OK that only the top division clubs can have these players, but the higher the price tag is the more in favour of the already best clubs in the country. Not too sure this is a good change overall!? thank you Rob. |
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Post by Stokyo on Sept 18, 2014 4:44:22 GMT
So if i am understanding right, these new rules only apply to non eu players, how is that helping to bolster the national game, we can still bring in italian, german or spanish players for example! Right?
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Post by stokiejoe on Sept 18, 2014 9:20:00 GMT
Greg Dyke basically said that unknown players who are from nations outside the top 50 in the rankings would only be allowed if a top club wanted them. The journalist basically questioned him on the fact that under new rules, Adebayor wouldn't have got in when he signed for Arsenal. The response was astonishing and explained perfectly why we weren't allowed to bring in Agudelo whilst at the same time Chelsea got some teenage African easily. If a top club wants you you're an elite player or potentially elite player no matter what be if you're Stoke City, Hull City or similar, you're not. Simples! what was this astonishing response exactly??? i think you've comletely missed the idea of the "Elite" player mate..Dyke has labelled ALL those players that fit within the requirements as "Elite players" so any non-eu player that is able to come over is an "Elite" player full stop.it's not as if some can come over and we'll also make exceptions for "Elite players" as well...the old way where you could try to appeal against a declined player by telling the FA that he was something special so can they please make an exception will be completely gone. that was the old use of the word "Elite" in this situation, the new meaning is simply that any player that makes the grade and is allowed to come over is now termed "Elite" the plans actually make it more of a level playing field in terms of which Prem clubs can get non-EU players as it completely takes out the subjective idea of who does/doesn't deserve to come over. it will be done purely on a basis of are they in the top 50 FIFA rankings and have they played the required amount of games for their country in the time frame....that's it, nothing else and there will no longer be an appeal process to try to prove that player x who has been initially declined a VISA is actually really really good because Jose, Louis, Bredan says so (which is where the "Big" clubs get their players through the loop holes). in short, if these rules come in then the big clubs will have their players declined just as often as we have in the past if they don't meet the requirements. requirements: 1) The player must represent a country ranked in the top 50 of FIFAs rankings 2) The player must have played over 30% of that nation's competitive matches over the last 2 years if they are ranked in the top 30 ( asignificant decrease in the 75% previously) 3) If the player is bought for more than 10-15 million then he would be considered to be an elite player and therefore be granted entry (10-15 mill is quite a common fee nowadays for lots of Prem clubs not just the traditional big boys so definitely not out of reach for virtually all Prem clubs) "We want to change the system. We think the current system is a bit of a farce - 80 per cent get in on appeal because the manager turns up with a video showing he looks a good player!" "We think it should stop being that - it should be that there are a set of criteria - those criteria decide whether a player should come in. "We've come up with a different set of criteria which we're now asking the Football League and the Premier League - and others - for their views on. "We hope the result is something like 50 per cent less players from outside the EU will come and play here and the aim, of course, is that we hope that some of those slots in the squads will go to younger English players." Dyke added: "We don't mind players being loaned out. What we're saying is if you're going to bring this player in, then why do you then want to loan him out if he's an elite player, which is what the law says? "We want managers to think before they sign this player, they've got to be pretty sure they'll want him in the squad and they will want to play him. "The rules say elite non-European players, the very best, should be allowed to come in - we agree with that. What we're saying is a lot aren't and then don't play that much and they do take squad places. "A lot, particularly in the Football League, disappear after a year or so. The system doesn't work at the moment. "Let's do what the law said was intended to do - let the best players come in but let's give those squad places, the rest of them, to young English kids." Excellent analysis Mick, made me change my view. |
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Post by lordb on Sept 18, 2014 12:27:40 GMT
Minimum transfer fee - where would that leave Diouf, signed on a free. And what if the next Messi is from Moldova or some country not in the top 50, he can't play in the PL? Diouf counts as an EU player efectively re his marriage to a Nowegian (who aren't in the EU...) tbh in term sof transfer these proposals wont affect that many as vast majority of transfers (across the prem) in the last 10 years (for e.g.) would have fitted this criteria anyway |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 12:47:48 GMT
Minimum transfer fee - where would that leave Diouf, signed on a free. And what if the next Messi is from Moldova or some country not in the top 50, he can't play in the PL? it's not a case that if it's a non-eu player then there's a minimum transfer fee at all. if they are a non-eu player that meet the requirements (top 50, played 30% of competitive games) then they're in, no problems and anyone can sign them for any amount. the minimum transfer fee is when they DON'T meet the requirements to ensure that they ARE of a decent quality (as it they're valued above 10 mill then it's a safe bet they will be a good player that will help improve the Prem). as has been said, they've come up with this simply to make sure the big clubs don't stockpile hoardes of potential talent, find out they're actually no good then just loan them out to anyone and everyone and then if they do come good then they've already got them on their books before any other team had a chance to enquire about them a post replying to this above talked about the millions people pay for youngsters etc. etc. but as of yet i don't think that ANY team has ever paid over 10 mill for a player from a team outside of the top 50 FIFA rankings, that hasn't played over 30% of games for that country and where that player will HAVE to form part of the 25 man squad because they won't be allowed to be loaned out......and it's this banning of loans that will be the important part!!! teams like Chelsea, Man Utd.,Man City etc. aren't going to be able to just take a punt on a player no-one's heard of and then just loan them out and monitor their progress anymore and if they don't work out then just cast them aside. they've simply stockpiled these players in the past and got others through on appeal when they've initially been declined; these rules mean they will no longer be able to do either of those things as there is no appeal process anymore and if they DO bring a non-EU player in then they will either be a good player that everyone can bid for (because they meet the requirements) or a complete punt that they will HAVE to pay over 10 mill for and will HAVE to play in their squad because they're not allowed to loan them out, in other words if a team is willing to pay over 10 mill then it's fairly likely that they are a good player or the team just wouldn't risk it! it doesn't improve the big teams position over everyone else in any way (it doesn't lessen the postion either which is why i don't get the issues some seem to have with this as it basically isn't about improving anyone's chances over anyone else, it's simply to ensure that when non-eu players come over that we know they ARE of the right quality rather than just being told by Jose that they are and then Chelsea sneaking them through an appeal process and the place that an englishman could have taken to improce his development going to an african kiddie that is never actually going to make it anyway but chelsea just thought they'd get in before anyone else just in case)....if a big team is going to bid 20 mill for a player because they don't meet the requirements then it's fairly likely they'd be bidding 20 mill even if they DID meet the requirements as well so even without these rules we'd be priced out of the market, if a player DOES meet the requirements then there's no minimum or maximum fee anyway so any team can bid as per usual. |
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